Why is VSA not helpful during racing ?
10-26-2006, 07:31 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Why is VSA not helpful during racing ?
During a race, have you tried launching with the help of VSA ? Why is VSA not helpful during racing ?
I do not get an opportunity to race any because I only drive my TL to work during rush hour traffic, which usually does not provide any opportunity.
Plus, I only had my TL for 11,000 miles thus far.
My mods are:
2006 TL 5AT
UR Pulley
AEM CAI (DryFlow)
modest weight reduction
slightly reduced tire diameter (slightly better gearing) (255/40-17)
During launching at battle time, we know it is difficult to keep your cool to feed the perfect amount of throttle without losing traction. And, we know that whoever losses traction during launch is most-likely the loser too. So, would the VSA traction-control be an asset instead of a hindrance ?
I understand the "conventional belief" that the computer (VSA) will cutback the power too much and cause you to lose. I understand this logic, and I have been disengaging my VSA during potential battle times.
The reason that I started questioning this logic is because I HAVE used VSA on slick wet streets OFTEN. THE VSA TRACTION-CONTROL WORKS DAMN GOOD !!!! For laughs, I love to floor it whenever I am first-in-line at a redlight on wet streets, especially wet asphalt (very slippery). I get the biggest laugh when I takeoff like a rocket and everyone else is spinning even with their cautious acceleration.
The VSA works like magic. I launch like DAMN FAST on the most slippery wet roads with WOT. The VSA is very smooth in it's power regulation. I can sense the VSA regulating the power, and VSA is VERY AGGRESSIVE with the power --- it does not hold back power unnecessarily. The split second that VSA can go to full-throttle without wheelspin, it does !!! Remember that I have CAI, so I can easily hear what the computer is doing with the throttle.
VSA has the perfect balance between power versus available traction. Remember, that I go WOT (to the floor) as soon as the light turns green. And, this is on wet asphalt (not concrete). Not once do I hear the tires spinning against the wet road. If I concentrate on it, I feel a very slight power pulsing as the computer is testing for available traction. I just feel unbelievable acceleration for such slippery conditions. I can hear that the throttle plate is nowhere near WOT although I have the pedal to the floor. By the time that I am on the otherside of the intersection (30-35 mph), the computer detects no further wheelspin and the computer goes to "throttle up" (WOT) in an AGGRESSIVE manner that quickly gets me to 60 mph. I get out of the throttle and look in my mirror. I see the normal traffic, a long way back there, barely making their way thru the intersection. Laughing my ass off.
VSA will give me the same awesome launch consistently on wet roads. There is no way that I could nail the launch this perfect everytime by using my talent alone. Sure, I might get lucky sometimes and match the same performance as the VSA. Add some adrenalin to me during a real race, and I will have a hard time to launch without excessive wheelspin on wet roads without VSA.
Let's talk dry roads now. I have not tried VSA on a dry road yet. During a race, have you tried launching with the help of VSA ? Why is VSA not helpful during racing ? It sure does work magically for me when launching on wet roads. I am going to leave my VSA turned *on* until I can prove to myself that it screws-up a launch on dry roads.
I do not get an opportunity to race any because I only drive my TL to work during rush hour traffic, which usually does not provide any opportunity.
Plus, I only had my TL for 11,000 miles thus far.
My mods are:
2006 TL 5AT
UR Pulley
AEM CAI (DryFlow)
modest weight reduction
slightly reduced tire diameter (slightly better gearing) (255/40-17)
During launching at battle time, we know it is difficult to keep your cool to feed the perfect amount of throttle without losing traction. And, we know that whoever losses traction during launch is most-likely the loser too. So, would the VSA traction-control be an asset instead of a hindrance ?
I understand the "conventional belief" that the computer (VSA) will cutback the power too much and cause you to lose. I understand this logic, and I have been disengaging my VSA during potential battle times.
The reason that I started questioning this logic is because I HAVE used VSA on slick wet streets OFTEN. THE VSA TRACTION-CONTROL WORKS DAMN GOOD !!!! For laughs, I love to floor it whenever I am first-in-line at a redlight on wet streets, especially wet asphalt (very slippery). I get the biggest laugh when I takeoff like a rocket and everyone else is spinning even with their cautious acceleration.
The VSA works like magic. I launch like DAMN FAST on the most slippery wet roads with WOT. The VSA is very smooth in it's power regulation. I can sense the VSA regulating the power, and VSA is VERY AGGRESSIVE with the power --- it does not hold back power unnecessarily. The split second that VSA can go to full-throttle without wheelspin, it does !!! Remember that I have CAI, so I can easily hear what the computer is doing with the throttle.
VSA has the perfect balance between power versus available traction. Remember, that I go WOT (to the floor) as soon as the light turns green. And, this is on wet asphalt (not concrete). Not once do I hear the tires spinning against the wet road. If I concentrate on it, I feel a very slight power pulsing as the computer is testing for available traction. I just feel unbelievable acceleration for such slippery conditions. I can hear that the throttle plate is nowhere near WOT although I have the pedal to the floor. By the time that I am on the otherside of the intersection (30-35 mph), the computer detects no further wheelspin and the computer goes to "throttle up" (WOT) in an AGGRESSIVE manner that quickly gets me to 60 mph. I get out of the throttle and look in my mirror. I see the normal traffic, a long way back there, barely making their way thru the intersection. Laughing my ass off.
VSA will give me the same awesome launch consistently on wet roads. There is no way that I could nail the launch this perfect everytime by using my talent alone. Sure, I might get lucky sometimes and match the same performance as the VSA. Add some adrenalin to me during a real race, and I will have a hard time to launch without excessive wheelspin on wet roads without VSA.
Let's talk dry roads now. I have not tried VSA on a dry road yet. During a race, have you tried launching with the help of VSA ? Why is VSA not helpful during racing ? It sure does work magically for me when launching on wet roads. I am going to leave my VSA turned *on* until I can prove to myself that it screws-up a launch on dry roads.
10-27-2006, 12:18 AM
#2
WDP Is Faster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Age: 37
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from reading around these boards for quite some time, the main reason is because VSA limits some of the power in order to make sure the car gains traction. WIth it off, the wheel spin is not regulated so basically, the wheel will spin for a lot longer.
I actually tried this and for me (i'm not sure if it's the placebo effect) but it does seem as though having VSA off is a lot better. But you can't really take my judgement for that much count because even though I have Yoko Avid V4's, they aren't really that good in grip traction when it comes to sudden acceleration. WHen I had my VSA off, my tries would still spin for atleast couple of seconds and then the tires would gain traction. But when I did use VSA, it seemed to slow it down just a tad bit just so the tires could gain traction.
I think the best way is for someone to reply with very good tires. Then you'd get better feedback since the tires would have bettergrip than the other tires. (like my yokos).
dunno if my post was confusing but yea..
edit: BTW, i have a 2002 TL-S..dunno if they improved this system for teh 04s and up.
I actually tried this and for me (i'm not sure if it's the placebo effect) but it does seem as though having VSA off is a lot better. But you can't really take my judgement for that much count because even though I have Yoko Avid V4's, they aren't really that good in grip traction when it comes to sudden acceleration. WHen I had my VSA off, my tries would still spin for atleast couple of seconds and then the tires would gain traction. But when I did use VSA, it seemed to slow it down just a tad bit just so the tires could gain traction.
I think the best way is for someone to reply with very good tires. Then you'd get better feedback since the tires would have bettergrip than the other tires. (like my yokos).
dunno if my post was confusing but yea..
edit: BTW, i have a 2002 TL-S..dunno if they improved this system for teh 04s and up.
10-27-2006, 02:21 AM
#3
I'm Down Right Fierce!
Ok, I don't know if this has been discussed on the forums here, but it's been some debate on NASIOC, and it's been a debate over STI's and what function it serves and why it is detrimental in a straight drag race. I'll share my knowledge of what I know about VDSC which is essentially the same as VSA.
Basically VSA "Vehicle Stability Assist" also known as VDSC "Vehicle Stability Dynamic Control" by Subaru (I once had an STI...
) functions by comparing the drivers intended steering direction and braking inputs to the lateral accelaration of the car and the speed of each spinning wheel. In the TL's case the two front wheels. This is typically why you should leave VSA on; when losing control at high speeds, VSA can save your life... literally.
VSA has gotten more sophisticated and now it also controls "drive wheel slip" which is basically the slipping of the wheels under acceleration. When VSA senses the two front tires slipping for traction, it will automatically brake each individual wheel while attempting to make sure that you are going forward in the direction your steering wheel is set.
Thus if you're steering wheel is turned, the outer wheel of the direction you are turning in will spin faster and the inner wheel will be braked with VSA turned on so that you will go towards the direction you are turning. Not only that, but it will reduce the power so that your wheels spin at a slower speed than what it should be spinning: hence if you floor it suddenly with VSA on, the VSA light flashes and your wheels are actually being braked and are moving slower than they should be if VSA was turned off.
Usually, for TL drivers, your steering wheel will be straight ahead as TL's have crappy cornering ability: what does this mean? Basically, the VSA will be seeking equilibrium between the two spinning wheels until you get grip. It will brake each wheel till they've both got grip and it will limit the power so that even if you have the pedal completely depressed, the wheels are actually spinning at a speed of the pedal being pressed at about 1/3 - 1/2 of the pedal pressed down. Once both wheels get grip, then it will stop braking the wheels, and actually listen to your pedal command and allow power to gradually increase until it outputs the full amount of power for having the pedal completely floored.
How does this hurt in a straight drag race? It's essentially braking your wheels and limiting the power to your wheels when you suddenly floor it.
IS your conclusion that VSA helps you off the line wrong? No, absolutley not.
A big debate on the Subaru forums was whether or not VDSC (VSA equivalent to Subarus) hurt us in straight drag races. The conclusion there is that it really doesn't and it's really rare for STI's to actually get any "Drive wheel slip." When an STI experiences "Drive wheel slip" it means it's time to swap out tires...
And thats my point here. If you dont have sticky tires, VSA may actually help you accelerate faster. Why? Because with VSA Turned off, your tires will just continue to spin and spin at the complete power output of the TL with the pedal pressed all the way down. IF your tires are not sticky, they spin and spin and result in what most people call a "burn out."
With VSA on, "Burn outs" are extremely rare. THe most you should hear is a chirp of the tires screeching and you should obtain grip. Note, you can still get the "burn out" effect if the road is wet with VSA on.
But you are correct, getting a good launch on wet roads requires having VSA on. Think about it: the roads are slippery, with VSA off the tires spin at 100% of the 240ish WHP of the TL. Whats worse, depending on the traction of each tire, one tire will get grip first and you will start to steer off course (you will experience a minor "fish tail") You will never get grip like that. With VSA on, your tires will spin at about 60% of the total power and each wheel is braked so that they both reach equilibrium until grip is reached. No Fish Tailing since the wheels are individually being braked to insure both tires get grip at the same time.
In essence, you don't need VSA to get traction: a skilled driver could easily regain grip without VSA with the use of good pedal control, braking, counter steering, and shifting. However VSA is an extremely intelligent system that does all of that for you to let you maintain control.
For dry conditions, VSA will help you if your tires are not sticky (meaning your tires are worn or you have non sports tires). If you have sports tires with good tread wear, having VSA off will help you because your tires should grip quickly even with the full power being applied and you dont have to wait until your power is gradually increased.
I don't know if all of that made sense... but yeah.. I think I covered how VSA works and explained why it would help in situations where the road or tires are slippery... and I've covered my opinion of why having VSA off should help you on dry conditions.
Basically VSA "Vehicle Stability Assist" also known as VDSC "Vehicle Stability Dynamic Control" by Subaru (I once had an STI...
) functions by comparing the drivers intended steering direction and braking inputs to the lateral accelaration of the car and the speed of each spinning wheel. In the TL's case the two front wheels. This is typically why you should leave VSA on; when losing control at high speeds, VSA can save your life... literally.VSA has gotten more sophisticated and now it also controls "drive wheel slip" which is basically the slipping of the wheels under acceleration. When VSA senses the two front tires slipping for traction, it will automatically brake each individual wheel while attempting to make sure that you are going forward in the direction your steering wheel is set.
Thus if you're steering wheel is turned, the outer wheel of the direction you are turning in will spin faster and the inner wheel will be braked with VSA turned on so that you will go towards the direction you are turning. Not only that, but it will reduce the power so that your wheels spin at a slower speed than what it should be spinning: hence if you floor it suddenly with VSA on, the VSA light flashes and your wheels are actually being braked and are moving slower than they should be if VSA was turned off.
Usually, for TL drivers, your steering wheel will be straight ahead as TL's have crappy cornering ability: what does this mean? Basically, the VSA will be seeking equilibrium between the two spinning wheels until you get grip. It will brake each wheel till they've both got grip and it will limit the power so that even if you have the pedal completely depressed, the wheels are actually spinning at a speed of the pedal being pressed at about 1/3 - 1/2 of the pedal pressed down. Once both wheels get grip, then it will stop braking the wheels, and actually listen to your pedal command and allow power to gradually increase until it outputs the full amount of power for having the pedal completely floored.
How does this hurt in a straight drag race? It's essentially braking your wheels and limiting the power to your wheels when you suddenly floor it.
IS your conclusion that VSA helps you off the line wrong? No, absolutley not.
A big debate on the Subaru forums was whether or not VDSC (VSA equivalent to Subarus) hurt us in straight drag races. The conclusion there is that it really doesn't and it's really rare for STI's to actually get any "Drive wheel slip." When an STI experiences "Drive wheel slip" it means it's time to swap out tires...
And thats my point here. If you dont have sticky tires, VSA may actually help you accelerate faster. Why? Because with VSA Turned off, your tires will just continue to spin and spin at the complete power output of the TL with the pedal pressed all the way down. IF your tires are not sticky, they spin and spin and result in what most people call a "burn out."
With VSA on, "Burn outs" are extremely rare. THe most you should hear is a chirp of the tires screeching and you should obtain grip. Note, you can still get the "burn out" effect if the road is wet with VSA on.
But you are correct, getting a good launch on wet roads requires having VSA on. Think about it: the roads are slippery, with VSA off the tires spin at 100% of the 240ish WHP of the TL. Whats worse, depending on the traction of each tire, one tire will get grip first and you will start to steer off course (you will experience a minor "fish tail") You will never get grip like that. With VSA on, your tires will spin at about 60% of the total power and each wheel is braked so that they both reach equilibrium until grip is reached. No Fish Tailing since the wheels are individually being braked to insure both tires get grip at the same time.
In essence, you don't need VSA to get traction: a skilled driver could easily regain grip without VSA with the use of good pedal control, braking, counter steering, and shifting. However VSA is an extremely intelligent system that does all of that for you to let you maintain control.
For dry conditions, VSA will help you if your tires are not sticky (meaning your tires are worn or you have non sports tires). If you have sports tires with good tread wear, having VSA off will help you because your tires should grip quickly even with the full power being applied and you dont have to wait until your power is gradually increased.
I don't know if all of that made sense... but yeah.. I think I covered how VSA works and explained why it would help in situations where the road or tires are slippery... and I've covered my opinion of why having VSA off should help you on dry conditions.
10-27-2006, 03:39 AM
#4
WDP Is Faster
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Age: 37
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Originally Posted by BraveDemon
Ok, I don't know if this has been discussed on the forums here, but it's been some debate on NASIOC, and it's been a debate over STI's and what function it serves and why it is detrimental in a straight drag race. I'll share my knowledge of what I know about VDSC which is essentially the same as VSA.
Basically VSA "Vehicle Stability Assist" also known as VDSC "Vehicle Stability Dynamic Control" by Subaru (I once had an STI... ) functions by comparing the drivers intended steering direction and braking inputs to the lateral accelaration of the car and the speed of each spinning wheel. In the TL's case the two front wheels. This is typically why you should leave VSA on; when losing control at high speeds, VSA can save your life... literally.
VSA has gotten more sophisticated and now it also controls "drive wheel slip" which is basically the slipping of the wheels under acceleration. When VSA senses the two front tires slipping for traction, it will automatically brake each individual wheel while attempting to make sure that you are going forward in the direction your steering wheel is set.
Thus if you're steering wheel is turned, the outer wheel of the direction you are turning in will spin faster and the inner wheel will be braked with VSA turned on so that you will go towards the direction you are turning. Not only that, but it will reduce the power so that your wheels spin at a slower speed than what it should be spinning: hence if you floor it suddenly with VSA on, the VSA light flashes and your wheels are actually being braked and are moving slower than they should be if VSA was turned off.
Usually, for TL drivers, your steering wheel will be straight ahead as TL's have crappy cornering ability: what does this mean? Basically, the VSA will be seeking equilibrium between the two spinning wheels until you get grip. It will brake each wheel till they've both got grip and it will limit the power so that even if you have the pedal completely depressed, the wheels are actually spinning at a speed of the pedal being pressed at about 1/3 - 1/2 of the pedal pressed down. Once both wheels get grip, then it will stop braking the wheels, and actually listen to your pedal command and allow power to gradually increase until it outputs the full amount of power for having the pedal completely floored.
How does this hurt in a straight drag race? It's essentially braking your wheels and limiting the power to your wheels when you suddenly floor it.
IS your conclusion that VSA helps you off the line wrong? No, absolutley not.
A big debate on the Subaru forums was whether or not VDSC (VSA equivalent to Subarus) hurt us in straight drag races. The conclusion there is that it really doesn't and it's really rare for STI's to actually get any "Drive wheel slip." When an STI experiences "Drive wheel slip" it means it's time to swap out tires...
And thats my point here. If you dont have sticky tires, VSA may actually help you accelerate faster. Why? Because with VSA Turned off, your tires will just continue to spin and spin at the complete power output of the TL with the pedal pressed all the way down. IF your tires are not sticky, they spin and spin and result in what most people call a "burn out."
With VSA on, "Burn outs" are extremely rare. THe most you should hear is a chirp of the tires screeching and you should obtain grip. Note, you can still get the "burn out" effect if the road is wet with VSA on.
But you are correct, getting a good launch on wet roads requires having VSA on. Think about it: the roads are slippery, with VSA off the tires spin at 100% of the 240ish WHP of the TL. Whats worse, depending on the traction of each tire, one tire will get grip first and you will start to steer off course (you will experience a minor "fish tail") You will never get grip like that. With VSA on, your tires will spin at about 60% of the total power and each wheel is braked so that they both reach equilibrium until grip is reached. No Fish Tailing since the wheels are individually being braked to insure both tires get grip at the same time.
In essence, you don't need VSA to get traction: a skilled driver could easily regain grip without VSA with the use of good pedal control, braking, counter steering, and shifting. However VSA is an extremely intelligent system that does all of that for you to let you maintain control.
For dry conditions, VSA will help you if your tires are not sticky (meaning your tires are worn or you have non sports tires). If you have sports tires with good tread wear, having VSA off will help you because your tires should grip quickly even with the full power being applied and you dont have to wait until your power is gradually increased.
I don't know if all of that made sense... but yeah.. I think I covered how VSA works and explained why it would help in situations where the road or tires are slippery... and I've covered my opinion of why having VSA off should help you on dry conditions.
Basically VSA "Vehicle Stability Assist" also known as VDSC "Vehicle Stability Dynamic Control" by Subaru (I once had an STI...
) functions by comparing the drivers intended steering direction and braking inputs to the lateral accelaration of the car and the speed of each spinning wheel. In the TL's case the two front wheels. This is typically why you should leave VSA on; when losing control at high speeds, VSA can save your life... literally.VSA has gotten more sophisticated and now it also controls "drive wheel slip" which is basically the slipping of the wheels under acceleration. When VSA senses the two front tires slipping for traction, it will automatically brake each individual wheel while attempting to make sure that you are going forward in the direction your steering wheel is set.
Thus if you're steering wheel is turned, the outer wheel of the direction you are turning in will spin faster and the inner wheel will be braked with VSA turned on so that you will go towards the direction you are turning. Not only that, but it will reduce the power so that your wheels spin at a slower speed than what it should be spinning: hence if you floor it suddenly with VSA on, the VSA light flashes and your wheels are actually being braked and are moving slower than they should be if VSA was turned off.
Usually, for TL drivers, your steering wheel will be straight ahead as TL's have crappy cornering ability: what does this mean? Basically, the VSA will be seeking equilibrium between the two spinning wheels until you get grip. It will brake each wheel till they've both got grip and it will limit the power so that even if you have the pedal completely depressed, the wheels are actually spinning at a speed of the pedal being pressed at about 1/3 - 1/2 of the pedal pressed down. Once both wheels get grip, then it will stop braking the wheels, and actually listen to your pedal command and allow power to gradually increase until it outputs the full amount of power for having the pedal completely floored.
How does this hurt in a straight drag race? It's essentially braking your wheels and limiting the power to your wheels when you suddenly floor it.
IS your conclusion that VSA helps you off the line wrong? No, absolutley not.
A big debate on the Subaru forums was whether or not VDSC (VSA equivalent to Subarus) hurt us in straight drag races. The conclusion there is that it really doesn't and it's really rare for STI's to actually get any "Drive wheel slip." When an STI experiences "Drive wheel slip" it means it's time to swap out tires...
And thats my point here. If you dont have sticky tires, VSA may actually help you accelerate faster. Why? Because with VSA Turned off, your tires will just continue to spin and spin at the complete power output of the TL with the pedal pressed all the way down. IF your tires are not sticky, they spin and spin and result in what most people call a "burn out."
With VSA on, "Burn outs" are extremely rare. THe most you should hear is a chirp of the tires screeching and you should obtain grip. Note, you can still get the "burn out" effect if the road is wet with VSA on.
But you are correct, getting a good launch on wet roads requires having VSA on. Think about it: the roads are slippery, with VSA off the tires spin at 100% of the 240ish WHP of the TL. Whats worse, depending on the traction of each tire, one tire will get grip first and you will start to steer off course (you will experience a minor "fish tail") You will never get grip like that. With VSA on, your tires will spin at about 60% of the total power and each wheel is braked so that they both reach equilibrium until grip is reached. No Fish Tailing since the wheels are individually being braked to insure both tires get grip at the same time.
In essence, you don't need VSA to get traction: a skilled driver could easily regain grip without VSA with the use of good pedal control, braking, counter steering, and shifting. However VSA is an extremely intelligent system that does all of that for you to let you maintain control.
For dry conditions, VSA will help you if your tires are not sticky (meaning your tires are worn or you have non sports tires). If you have sports tires with good tread wear, having VSA off will help you because your tires should grip quickly even with the full power being applied and you dont have to wait until your power is gradually increased.
I don't know if all of that made sense... but yeah.. I think I covered how VSA works and explained why it would help in situations where the road or tires are slippery... and I've covered my opinion of why having VSA off should help you on dry conditions.
10-28-2006, 12:09 AM
#5
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BraveDemon
... you dont have to wait until your power is gradually increased.
BraveDemon, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Regarding the statement that is quoted above... that was my point. The TL does NOT GRADUALLY apply power. It is AGGRESSIVE AS HELL when appling the power when I use it on wet roads. I hope to test (buttdyno) it's reaction on dry pavement sometime next week.
10-28-2006, 02:12 PM
#6
I'm Down Right Fierce!
Originally Posted by Inaccurate
BraveDemon, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Regarding the statement that is quoted above... that was my point. The TL does NOT GRADUALLY apply power. It is AGGRESSIVE AS HELL when appling the power when I use it on wet roads. I hope to test (buttdyno) it's reaction on dry pavement sometime next week.
Regarding the statement that is quoted above... that was my point. The TL does NOT GRADUALLY apply power. It is AGGRESSIVE AS HELL when appling the power when I use it on wet roads. I hope to test (buttdyno) it's reaction on dry pavement sometime next week.
With VSA off, your full power is applied when the pedal is pressed down regardless of whether or not the tires are slipping. All the power at this point is at your wheels, and your traction will primarily depend on the ability of your tires.
With VSA on, your full power is not engaged until VSA detects that your front wheels have traction. During the time VSA is trying to get traction, the TL will not be apply all the power to the wheels until traction is reached. Again here, stickiness of the tires could help VSA disengage faster, but the fact is while VSA is on, it still has to brake and reduce power until traction is gained. This could be a very short process if you have (lets say) racing slicks on your wheels. VSA would probably engage for a second and you'd be off. If you had near bald tires, then VSA would stay on a bit longer but you'd be able to get some traction.
With VSA off, if you had Racing slicks, you'd pretty much get traction immediatley even with 100% of the powers applied to the wheels. With Bald tires... you'd never get traction with VSA off.
If you were to go dyno to test VSA vs. No VSA, my prediction would be:
VSA off: a high (exponential) incline in the power band immediately.
VSA on: a moderate incline in the beginning, and when VSA disengages, a high incline in the power band.
Also, on a dyno... you'd have to somehow reproduce the slipping in order to test this theory... since (I'm assuming) you'll be on a dyno with wheels (rollers), I don't know how you would reproduce the slipping since the computer will think you have grip and the VSA won't go off....
But either way, this is by far the most interesting debate I've had on AZ. Tell me the results of the dyno.
EDIT: LOL sorry, I didn't read your thread carefully. You said "Buttdyno" meaning you'd test on dry surfaces. Lol. The best way to test this is with two sets of tires. Try to find a friend with near bald tires and try it with VSA on and off. THen try it with tires with good tread with VSA on and off.
I'd still be interested in your results so post them!
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11-09-2006, 03:14 PM
#8
I'm Down Right Fierce!
Originally Posted by pnoi521
Ok so i've been wondering.
how do you turn the VSA off? Is there a button on the dash?
how do you turn the VSA off? Is there a button on the dash?
It's next to your moon roof button...
11-21-2006, 08:01 PM
#10
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Not many responses ???? Interesting. Sometimes, no answer is an answer !!!!
Let me bore you with my story. Back in my day when I was younger, I had a new 1985 IROC-Z. I heavily modified it (to say the least). It was 100% streetable (a sleeper). It would do 13.1 @ 101 MPH on the drag strip on the oem Goodyear Gatorback tires. The oem car did 15.2 seconds according to the car magazines. I mainly did "organized" illegal street (drag) racing, with a fair share of stoplight racing.
Blowing the tires away during launching was way too easy in this car. The point is that I had dreamed about how awesome it would be if I could design something that could modulate/control the throttle to keep the tires at the point of maximum traction during launches. Around this time (1988-1990's), I had read about some cars (corvettes, I think) were starting to get traction control from the factory... damn I was envious. I would drool and dream how great it would be if I could have this on my modified IROC-Z. But, I never did have anything like this for my IROC. BUT, I DO HAVE TRACTION CONTROL IN MY TL AND I AM LEARNING TO APPRECIATE IT !!!!!
Why did I want this so badly with my IROC ??? Because, being a street racer, I knew how much depended on getting optimum traction on the street. Street racing is different from drag strips. On the real drag strip, you know from previous runs just how much throttle the track can hold before losing traction. On the street, you are always encountering different road surfaces. And, you get only one chance for the perfect launch (no warm-up passes). Too much throttle for that particular road surface, and you spin... and you most likely loss the battle too if the other guy gets a good launch. Launches are everything in drag racing unless the cars are not in the same league (very different quarter mile capabilities).
Well, I know that the younger macho fellows will read this and think... "hell, learn to drive your car dude !!!!". Well, that is what I did with my IROC. I did pretty good learning to quickly adjust the throttle whenever I detected wheelspin. But, if you put your macho thinking aside, you will see from a logical point-of-view that having "computer controlled traction" would be an awesome thing to have to help winning stop light races. I don't race much with my TL (not many opportunities during rush-hour traffic), so I can't hone my skills at applying the perfect amount of throttle like I could when I was younger.
IMHO, the majority of the time, the other guy losses traction too while coming out of the hole (from adrenaline pumping). So, it comes down to who losses the least amount of traction from spinning. So, now think..... if you had "computer controlled traction" (and you do..it's called vsa), you would have an awesome advantage over your opponent.
Sure, on the drag strip where you can do several consecutive passes and get the throttle dialed-in, you might go 1 or 2 tenths quicker with the vsa off. But, on the street, why gamble. You don't know ahead of time how much traction is available, plus adrenaline pumping. Just let vsa do its thing, and let the opponent spin (that adrenaline pumping thing again). It's a great advantage !!!!
I am getting closer to answering my own question of "Why is VSA not helpful for racing?". To me, the answer is "Try it, you might like it." Until recently, I believed the dogma about turning off your vsa whenever you wanted max performance. There were times when I needed to quickly accelerate (from a stop) to cut into traffic, and the car would have a flat response during take-off (with vsa on). I thought it was because vsa was hurting my performance. Now, after more experience and modding with my TL, I realize it was NOT vsa's fault for the flat performance. My car was heat-soaked (summertime in Texas), and this kills the TL performance big-time. This is why I removed all under hood panels and insulated my cai.
I have been doing some "light duty" experimenting with launching with the vsa on. So far, I LIKE IT... I LIKE IT A LOT !!!! This morning was the closest thing to an actual race that I had to test the vsa (although the other car didn't race with me). As I am coming up to a red light, I see this new Maxima 3.5S (???) trying to get around me from behind. Great, we both make the red light, side by side, at the front of the line. The pavement is asphalt, not concrete. So, I am thinking... perfect time to test the vsa launch in real life for a real race. Light turns green, I quickly roll the throttle to WOT, and let the vsa do it's thing. And, the vsa kicked butt. Out of the corner of my eye, I could see the yellow vsa light activating (solid light, not just blinking) throughout first gear. And, during this time through first gear, the car's performance was awesome !!!! PERFECT LAUNCH !!!! No embarrassing tire spin. No jerking from vsa doing it's thing. Just smooth, HARD acceleration !!!!! VTEC going ape-shit, screaming it's ass off while vsa was actually doing it's thing. I am very impressed and happy with my "computer controlled traction". I got out of the throttle at the top of 2nd (approx 60 mph).
I floor my car often, so from a seat-of-the-pants perspective, I know how my car pulls with vsa off...and with the vsa actually activating, it pulls just as hard. For the GUARANTEE of a perfect launch, I will continue to leave my "computer controlled traction" turned on .... and I will recommend readers of this forum too to leave vsa on. VSA is NOT a "evil big brother", but vsa is your friend !!!!
DISCLAIMER - I have an auto trans. If you have a 6-speed manual, your results may vary.
Let me bore you with my story. Back in my day when I was younger, I had a new 1985 IROC-Z. I heavily modified it (to say the least). It was 100% streetable (a sleeper). It would do 13.1 @ 101 MPH on the drag strip on the oem Goodyear Gatorback tires. The oem car did 15.2 seconds according to the car magazines. I mainly did "organized" illegal street (drag) racing, with a fair share of stoplight racing.
Blowing the tires away during launching was way too easy in this car. The point is that I had dreamed about how awesome it would be if I could design something that could modulate/control the throttle to keep the tires at the point of maximum traction during launches. Around this time (1988-1990's), I had read about some cars (corvettes, I think) were starting to get traction control from the factory... damn I was envious. I would drool and dream how great it would be if I could have this on my modified IROC-Z. But, I never did have anything like this for my IROC. BUT, I DO HAVE TRACTION CONTROL IN MY TL AND I AM LEARNING TO APPRECIATE IT !!!!!
Why did I want this so badly with my IROC ??? Because, being a street racer, I knew how much depended on getting optimum traction on the street. Street racing is different from drag strips. On the real drag strip, you know from previous runs just how much throttle the track can hold before losing traction. On the street, you are always encountering different road surfaces. And, you get only one chance for the perfect launch (no warm-up passes). Too much throttle for that particular road surface, and you spin... and you most likely loss the battle too if the other guy gets a good launch. Launches are everything in drag racing unless the cars are not in the same league (very different quarter mile capabilities).
Well, I know that the younger macho fellows will read this and think... "hell, learn to drive your car dude !!!!". Well, that is what I did with my IROC. I did pretty good learning to quickly adjust the throttle whenever I detected wheelspin. But, if you put your macho thinking aside, you will see from a logical point-of-view that having "computer controlled traction" would be an awesome thing to have to help winning stop light races. I don't race much with my TL (not many opportunities during rush-hour traffic), so I can't hone my skills at applying the perfect amount of throttle like I could when I was younger.
IMHO, the majority of the time, the other guy losses traction too while coming out of the hole (from adrenaline pumping). So, it comes down to who losses the least amount of traction from spinning. So, now think..... if you had "computer controlled traction" (and you do..it's called vsa), you would have an awesome advantage over your opponent.
Sure, on the drag strip where you can do several consecutive passes and get the throttle dialed-in, you might go 1 or 2 tenths quicker with the vsa off. But, on the street, why gamble. You don't know ahead of time how much traction is available, plus adrenaline pumping. Just let vsa do its thing, and let the opponent spin (that adrenaline pumping thing again). It's a great advantage !!!!
I am getting closer to answering my own question of "Why is VSA not helpful for racing?". To me, the answer is "Try it, you might like it." Until recently, I believed the dogma about turning off your vsa whenever you wanted max performance. There were times when I needed to quickly accelerate (from a stop) to cut into traffic, and the car would have a flat response during take-off (with vsa on). I thought it was because vsa was hurting my performance. Now, after more experience and modding with my TL, I realize it was NOT vsa's fault for the flat performance. My car was heat-soaked (summertime in Texas), and this kills the TL performance big-time. This is why I removed all under hood panels and insulated my cai.
I have been doing some "light duty" experimenting with launching with the vsa on. So far, I LIKE IT... I LIKE IT A LOT !!!! This morning was the closest thing to an actual race that I had to test the vsa (although the other car didn't race with me). As I am coming up to a red light, I see this new Maxima 3.5S (???) trying to get around me from behind. Great, we both make the red light, side by side, at the front of the line. The pavement is asphalt, not concrete. So, I am thinking... perfect time to test the vsa launch in real life for a real race. Light turns green, I quickly roll the throttle to WOT, and let the vsa do it's thing. And, the vsa kicked butt. Out of the corner of my eye, I could see the yellow vsa light activating (solid light, not just blinking) throughout first gear. And, during this time through first gear, the car's performance was awesome !!!! PERFECT LAUNCH !!!! No embarrassing tire spin. No jerking from vsa doing it's thing. Just smooth, HARD acceleration !!!!! VTEC going ape-shit, screaming it's ass off while vsa was actually doing it's thing. I am very impressed and happy with my "computer controlled traction". I got out of the throttle at the top of 2nd (approx 60 mph).
I floor my car often, so from a seat-of-the-pants perspective, I know how my car pulls with vsa off...and with the vsa actually activating, it pulls just as hard. For the GUARANTEE of a perfect launch, I will continue to leave my "computer controlled traction" turned on .... and I will recommend readers of this forum too to leave vsa on. VSA is NOT a "evil big brother", but vsa is your friend !!!!
DISCLAIMER - I have an auto trans. If you have a 6-speed manual, your results may vary.
11-23-2006, 02:08 PM
#11
You'll Never Walk Alone
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What tires do you have? In my 2G TL-S, I couldn't get any grip in wet condition with VSA on or off. I have Falken Ziex ZE512 for about 2 years (I think they are pretty worn out?). Even with the slightest movement of my right foot during off the line acceleration, my wheels would spin for like 1 - 2 seconds. What tires are recommended?
11-23-2006, 06:00 PM
#12
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by iforyou
What tires do you have? What tires are recommended?
"The Goodyear Eagle F1 picked as best overall performance tire" (Car and Driver, December 2005)
Here is a link to Car and Driver Magazine article: http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...y_f1_gs_ds.pdf
[/
11-25-2006, 03:34 PM
#15
10th Gear
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"I have not tried VSA on a dry road yet. During a race, have you tried launching with the help of VSA ? Why is VSA not helpful during racing ? It sure does work magically for me when launching on wet roads. I am going to leave my VSA turned *on* until I can prove to myself that it screws-up a launch on dry roads."
you mainly talking about about launch not the cornering at 60mph+
--on launch(dry) youd better off without TCS.
once you rev up car has to start when RPMs drop thats more torque given to wheels.
You dont just press gas from 1k rpms on start that will be long untill it reaches redline.
in stick shift you would do two spins on dry launch, small 1st gear, and 2nd.
-- on wet need TCS, and very gentle accel, as it will spin tires in either way if not carefull (rain tires would be must)
-- on cornering the higher speed you receive when you loose a bit of traction, TCS will hold you down untill tires starts gripping to the ground again.
!!!Something i didnt like even in a snow. If you loose traction with TCS car will slide, and you cant do nothing besides holding the wheel and watching.
thats why in races they turn off TCS controls, even ABS. you need to feel the car and roadgrip.
you mainly talking about about launch not the cornering at 60mph+
--on launch(dry) youd better off without TCS.
once you rev up car has to start when RPMs drop thats more torque given to wheels.
You dont just press gas from 1k rpms on start that will be long untill it reaches redline.
in stick shift you would do two spins on dry launch, small 1st gear, and 2nd.
-- on wet need TCS, and very gentle accel, as it will spin tires in either way if not carefull (rain tires would be must)
-- on cornering the higher speed you receive when you loose a bit of traction, TCS will hold you down untill tires starts gripping to the ground again.
!!!Something i didnt like even in a snow. If you loose traction with TCS car will slide, and you cant do nothing besides holding the wheel and watching.
thats why in races they turn off TCS controls, even ABS. you need to feel the car and roadgrip.
11-25-2006, 06:31 PM
#16
Safety Car
Thread Starter
XRX2,
Thanks for trying to help. But, I have already drawned my own conclusions (see post#10 in this thread), which I posted already. I will continue to leave my VSA activated. It benefits me greatly on the street.
Thanks for trying to help. But, I have already drawned my own conclusions (see post#10 in this thread), which I posted already. I will continue to leave my VSA activated. It benefits me greatly on the street.
11-25-2006, 08:33 PM
#17
10th Gear
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actually few days ago.. audi TT.. left me in her mirrors while trying to accel.
it was rainy and all wet.
Partially problem was I had almost no tread on current tires, was also with VSA on.
but anyway.. gotta admit those 4 wheels on slippery conditions, nothing better
it was rainy and all wet.
Partially problem was I had almost no tread on current tires, was also with VSA on.
but anyway.. gotta admit those 4 wheels on slippery conditions, nothing better
11-25-2006, 09:08 PM
#18
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I gotta admit that my Goodyear Eagles F1-D3 do have phenomenal traction, both wet and dry. So, like you are suggesting, my tires may deserve some of the credit, not just vsa.
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