Andy74

So I got a 2006 TL, 6 sp manual w/ Navi and I like it. If you remember 6sp has Brembo breaks. In order to get 6sp in 2007 you have to get TL-S. Whether or not paying the premium to get TL-S is debatable. What I don't like is the fact that there is no 6sp choice with the base TL. Why did Acura remove this option? Does it mean that in 2009, or whenever the re-designed TL is out, in order to get a brand new TL 6sp I will have to spend 40K?

To me, the 06 TL was a decent deal - for 32.5K I got a decent car, with Navi, 6sp. If I had to pay 38K for this car in order to get 6sp, I would strongly consider other options. Am I the minority here? I think in 2007 they stripped us of valuable options that we had before. I hope this trend does not continue.

dmfgrf

Precisely why I bought an '06 Labor Day weekend:
1. End of model year. Prices were low.
2. Wanted 6MT and wasn't going to fork out for a Type S.

Many have noted on A/Z the fact that auto manuf's are producing fewer man trannys. I guess they get fewer sales so they are focusing on the less-enthused drivers. I like to have total control of the driving, although with all of the electronics working behind the scenes the car just let's me think I'm in charge! Drive it till it's dead, and we'll be looking for new cars around 2014. That's about when I'll have 200k. I avg about 25k/yr.

bmaczo6

iTrader: (1)

Less and less buyers are opting for manual transmissions as each year passes. It wasn't that long ago that a manual was $800 to $1000 cheaper than an auto tranny. Now we are lucky to get one at the same price. This is one of the reasons that I bought a left-over 06.

mlody

Same here - i was originally planning to get 07 casue I liked some interior upgrades, especially audio upgades, but ended up with 06 6mt tl. First, like some other posted, i was not willing to pay many more $ for Tl-S to get stick, second - the red interior on tl-s is a dealbreaker impo.

Peters

The days of manual transmissions are slowly coming to an end in my view. My wifes new BMW's steptronic is simply outstanding. The downshifts in step mode are imperceptible. Its the best automatic I've driven.

Furthermore, the sequential manual gearboxes (which are not automatics per se) are slowly becoming mainstream. We'll see....

SouthernBoy

I don't think we'll see the demise of the manual transmission any time soon. If it were to occur, it would be due to government regulation.. as in totally controlled vehicle operation. This would not be practical at all with a manual.

As long as there is a market for manual transmissions, manufacturers will try to satisfy that market. So it's really in the consumers' hands.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

I agree with ya. IMHO Acura should have retained the manual tranny option for the 07 MY "base" TL . My concern for the future is whether or not Acura will retain a manual tranny at all for the 4GTL. Acura currently does not offer any of its SH-AWD vehicles w/ manual tranny and would cost the company $$ to develop it. I just hope they don't take a shortcut and discontinue the manual tranny altogether.
In all honesty- I sincerely doubt they would drop it but I am still worried about it.

sunny201

I know this isnt all that related, but Audi's DSG tranny is AMAZING. Im guessing that car makers will start making trannys like those soon. It is thee quickest auto tranny. I had an A3 with DSG and that shifted faster than any human can on stick. Just thought id let you guys know my

JERU

Actually from Acura's point of view it makes perfect sense. No dealer lot had a manual I went to and was told constantly its in the minority, big time. Assuming people who get manuals want a more performance oriented ride (LSD, Brembo's, etc), it makes sense to force them into a higher price Type S. I don't know if this was well thought out, because at that price point (38-40K), you start screwing with a few heavyweights in the performance market 330i, G35, IS350. Would I buy a TL @ 33-35K again, yes, would I buy one @38-40K, no. But I am sure Acura has something up their sleeve with the 4G....

SouthernBoy

I seriously doubt this. Ever heard of the late Ronnie Sox? I have been fortunate to have been present during his driving exhibitions (AF/X - yes, drag racing), and I would bet a months pay that this man could beat any automatic, in terms of shifting speed, you'll ever see.

Hell, I could throw 1-2 and 3-4 shifts in my 1966 SS396/360 Chevelle in under 1/10th of a second. Doubt an automatic is even going to beat that.

kennyc

actually DSG is not manual automatic transmission but a dual clutch manual transmission with automatic clutches.

and since it can upshift in 8ms. It shifts faster than most, if not all human.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox

sunny201

Thank You Kennyc.. right on point

kennyc

I used to own an A4... I love Audi's engineering but hate their reliability...

Adobeman

I understand why they do it from a marketing point of view. And I understand there are all of these new cool things like paddle shifters and Audi/Vw's DSG gear box but it's just not the same. Everyone I know that had a manual and then got one of these new systems simply stopped using them and just put the car in "drive".

I just think us "old dogs" that prefer to clutch and shift, even though autos are quicker, just need to get used to it because the newer generation of drivers don't care about any of that. They really don't. It's too hard to do while they holding a phone or trying to look cool by having the seat reclined all the way back to the rear seat. It might take actual concentration on driving. Where's the fun in that ? Even worse it might knock the backwards facing, oversize-brimmed, hat off their heads.

I guess you could always try and import a European spec car since MTs are still popular there. That's usually a hassle though. Or get used to cheaper cars that still have sticks. To me, I think the real enemy is the CVT. It may be great from a tech, performance and economy point of view but I'll never get used to a constant RMP acceleration. Never.

I'll probably have something with paddles and/or a DSG-like gearbox in the future. The trick will be to re-learn how to drive it rather than try and force it to be like an MT of the "old days". Who knows, it might just be a blast.

SouthernBoy

Gentlemen;

If that transmission can upshift in 8ms, then I stand corrected and owe you both an apology. That would indeed be quicker than most anyone, in my opinion. Still not so sure about Mr. Sox, but certainly faster than I was capable of doing, that's for sure.

In 1973, drivers were swithing enmasse to clutchless Lenco transmissions from the 4-speeds used at the time. Some of these drivers were picking up 1/10th of a second with the switch, which is one heck of a lot of time in a drag race. Ronnie Sox, on the other hand, lost 4/100's of a second when he made the switch.. the Lenco boxes could not be shifted as fast as Ronnie could power shift a 4-speed manual.

In 1965, he campaigned a 1965 Plymouth Fury 426 Hemi A/FX (A class Factory Experimental altered wheelbase - the precursor to the funny car). I had the pleasure of being present at some of his exhibitions. He would launch around 7-8000 RPM and the entire trip down the track, you could not detect a change in RPMs due to his shifts. It was simply amazing. So much so, that I modeled my style of speed shifting after his style of power shifting.

Anyway, thanks much for the info and the correction. I certainly do not mind at all being found to be in error.. that's how you learn.

kennyc

no apology neccessary... there are no hurt feelings...

IMO the manual transmission we know today will be gone soon. It will be replaced by the automatic manuals we see today (SMG, DSG/S-tronic, e-gear, F1) because even race cars use them now.

SouthernBoy

I certainly hope you're wrong there. As long as we present a market and the manufacturers see this market as viable, we will continue to see cars produced with manual transmissions. What does worry me some is the possibility that those choices could be reduced to just 4-cylinder "fun" machines and more expensive hi-performance cars (Corvette, Porsche, BMW, etc). The mid-line cars could be left to just receive automatics. I hope this is not the case.

your_mom

I would not pay the premium for a TL-S. At that price, I have three letters for you - B, M, and W.

I love the manual transmission on my 04 TL and also enjoyed the one on my 02 RSX Type-S. If Acura stops making manuals or switches to SMG/DSG, I will stop buying Acuras. I drove the GTI with DSG and what's the point? Pushing a button to shift is fucking lame. Personally, I like the feeling of being engaged with the car that comes from operating a clutch and shifter.

SouthernBoy

I couldn't agree more, though a BMW would not be my choice. Owned one once with my wife and I would not want to go down that road again.

Automatics with paddles or "select-o-shift" is pretend-a-manual as far as I see it. Don't know where I'd wind up looking.. maybe a Mustang or something a little different (though I do like performance sedans).

kennyc

I have been driving manual cars ever since I got my license. However, I believe the manual transmission will be gone the way of the drum brakes and 8-tracks, or at least becomes a niche. This is just a part of evolution of the automobile. Automatics are getting smarter by the model year and with the introduction of automatic manuals and CVT's it's hard for Honda, or any other company to justify spending time and money on an option that no one wants anymore.

Traffic is another major reason why manuals are so unpopular. For those people who spend 2+ hours in stop-and-go traffic understand why they will pick an automatic for their next car.

I hope I am wrong, but I think manual tranny's days are numbered.

psteng19

Driving a manual was never about speed, to me at least.

Legend2TL

IMO, the manual gearbox days are not going to be over in the world automarket for some time (20+ years ?). Road and Track had a article on the % of transmission types per continent last year and in Europe they still have the majority of transmissions in vehicles sold. The US market definitely declined alot in the 50's and 60's but there is a still a small but resilent minority out there that desire them. Mercedes even brought back the manual transmission for the C-class for the 2nd generation.

As for the TL, I agree with others here that it was a marketing decision on the 2007 models which is a shame. The type of owners opting for the TL-S's are more than likely more ethusist than the standard TL owners. I'm also not sure I would have paid the difference for the Type-S. Have to give Honda some credit since they finally brought the 6MT as choice for the 4 door Accords with the V6.

Also driving a manual is about the experience. I always feel more in tune with driving when I have a clutch and manual gearbox.

vector7777

My '06 TL - MT is about to be a year old on Saturday and just wanted to say that I absolutely love it. This car was my first stick and I went out of my way to get a manual because I wanted to learn. At the same time, I would say the vast majority of my peers in their late 20s don't feel the same way.

I don't know how things were 10 or 20 years ago for some of you folks but reality is that traffic in most places can be a real nightmare with my one way commute at 40 minutes and increasing by an average of 5 minutes each year. In these conditions most people can't be bothered with driving a stick. And to some degree I'm with them. Living in Atlanta, I've had to partially adjust my schedule so that I'm not sitting in peak "clutch-burning" traffic every day.

On the flip side - I still itch to drive the car whenever conditions are good. The manual is so much more engaging than an auto. If I manage to make this clutch last in traffic for 80k miles, my next car will definitely be a manual.

violarx

FWIW, my dealership tells me that only one MT is produced for every 15 automatics.

I think its probably less than that. I was told that my 07 6MT was one of only 5 sent to the east coast. I took delivery about 3 weeks ago and it was the first MT sold by this dealership going back several years.

Like others here, I wonder if MT's will go the way of the dinosaurs which would be unfortunate. There remains for me a certain "charm" to shifting . Shifting reminds me of the simpler times when we were younger and when driving required so much of our involvement. It also reminds me of the earlier eras of auto development & racing, the 60's, and backyard mechanics who were so amazingly talented. It was a wonderful time for cars, and I would expect many Acuraziners would agree.

mike03a3

Clearly they weren't very accurate. I also took delivery of my 6MT about 3 weeks ago on the East coast. There were 5 in stock the night I bought mine, and I know a second nearby dealer had 5 or 6 as well. Between the two of them I could have had any color combo of TL-S 6MT.

A large part of the problem is the dealers themselves - they say that MTs won't sell, so they don't order any. My daughter ran into this buying an Accord. She wanted an EX-L with MT. The dealer told her he didn't have any in stock - they didn't sell, so he didn't order them for stock. So, she asked how long it would take to get one if she ordered it. His reply? "I'm not sure, we have a waiting list for them!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's hard to argue with logic like that.

I think the truth is a bit different. Yes, automatics are a dying breed for the rank and file. It used to be automatics were a cost premium and luxury. In those days lower end cars typically had manual transmissions. Now, with ever increasing traffic and cost parity, most people are happy to have an automatic. Now, a lot of the people who want manuals tend to be more performance oriented - which is why companies like BMW offer them on so many models and we often see them as options or standard on the performance versions like the TL-S. In that regard, I think Acura really followed the trend, believing that the person to who the 6MT appealed was also likely to get the -S instead of a base model.

Jaguar did the exact opposite. They offered a manual on both the X-Type and S-Type, but only the lower performance versions. The high performance S-Type was only available with an automatic. So, they lost the MT lovers to companies that built performance models with MTs and the non-performance lovers wanted the no-fuss automatic. So, they dropped the automatics completely.

Personally, I love shifting for myself. So much so that I ripped the slushbox out of my XJ-S convertible and replaced it with a Tremec 5-speed. But my choices for factory manuals get fewer and fewer every year. And increasing electronics, etc. are making it virtually impossible to replace an automatic anymore. I hope Acura continues to make them available in their performance cars, that's a large part of why I bought my TL-S.

Adobeman

OK, it is true that MTs can be a pain if you experience every day bumper to bumper trafic. And, at 27, you are a decade older than the "newer generation of drivers" is was talking about.

SouthernBoy

Yep, nice sentiments. I also just flat enjoy the manual driving experience. I could forward the economic arguments about how manual transmissions far outlast automatics, how they require much less maintenance, how they are much less expensive to own and operate.. and all of these things are true. But there is just so much more than the economics.

If a car doesn't entertain me or if it ceases to do so after the initial "honeymoon" period, then I soon get bored with it. It just becomes a "point A to point B" vehicle. To me, that's exceedingly boring. It's not the type of vehicle that I would maybe use to take the long way home after a hard day's work.. I would just want to get home. Throw in an interesting driving machine with a manual transmission and for me, the whole picture changes. Long ways home, differing routes, interesting drives, all become thoughts turned to actions after a work day.

And then there's the way in which I operate a manual transmission. Almost like an artform, it is music to my ears and pleasure to my hands and feet. You can't do these things with an automatic.. all you do is drive. I doubt I'll see the demise of the manual transmission in my driving lifetime (hope not, anyway), but perhaps some of you young members will (again, I hope not). Just keep buying them and the companies will continue to make them.

Meek32v6

iTrader: (7)

I just hope a few years down the road I can afford a AT to MT swap on my 04. Should have kept looking but I didn't. the SS keeps me under control for a quick fix but i also miss driving a stick. I know I'll have this car for sometime now so not too worried about the next model. If anything it would be swapping a 6MT TypeS engine and tranny combo. that DSG looked pretty cool though. I heard about it on BMW's but nothing else

Costco

I don't think the manual transmission is going the way of the dinosaur. In Europe I believe the majority of all cars are manual. I believe the EDM and JDM IS250 are both available with manual transmission, unlike in the U.S. It's just that in NA a lot more people prefer automatic.

I'm not sure about those DSGs, SMGs, semi-automatics and clutchless manuals or whatever, but I don't see how an automatic could ever be faster than a manual. The auto tranny weighs much much more than a manual tranny and isn't as efficient as transferring power.

Not to mention its a lot more fun to drive, also. And it gives you more control of the car. SS is pretty cool and all, but its a bit sluggish in gear changing. Also despite being a new manual transmission driver, I can achieve shifts faster and sometimes even smoother (something I have to work on still) than SS, despite how much I've worked at it.

kennyc

You can get IS250 in manual here in the states.

DSG/SMG are not auto transmissions with manual over-ride. They are manual transmissions with computer controlled clutch - which means they have the same efficiency as a regular manual AND the consistency of a automatic.

As I said before, DSG can upshift in 8ms. That's 0.008 seconds. That's faster than humanly possible.

SouthernBoy

You have to admit that 8ms for a automatic shift to occur is pretty incredible and hard to imagine when you think of what should/needs/?? to take place during an upshift. I would like to know how they do this.

Burgman

They have 2 clutches, one inside the other. One clutch works gears 1,3,5 and the other works gears 2,4,6. When you start 1st is engaged and second is ready to go on the second clutch. During the shift one clutch releases and the other engages,8ms. Now the other clutch gear-set shifts to 3rd to be ready for the next shift.

I would still rather drive a normal gearshift. I never considered the TL when it was automatic only. I am sure glad they added it in 04.

HEK

I hope by the time I have to buy another automatic I'm too old to drive, just two weeks ago we traded our '05 Odyssey for the fact that it wasn't getting much use by me since I hate to drive automatics and since my wife also likes manual transmissions we bought a Jeep Rubicon 6spd 4x4 and you know what??...it's more fun to drive. So I guess little by little I will eventually stop buying Honda products if they can not meet my driving needs.....

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

i don't want to sound like a smart ass or anything but i don't know any manufacturers that puts a manual tranny in a minivan?

SouthernBoy

There have been some. I worked with a guy that had one (don't recall the manufacture). I was behind one in Fairfax City about 2 hours ago.

HEK

Don't get me wrong, we wanted a Ridgeline and bought the Ody for being Honda and it's track record, unfortunatelly it was the 1st year model and had it's recalls and issues that I thought were "too many" for a Japanese vehicle.
Both Ridgeline and Ody do not come with a stick and being that the wife was the "main" driver "we settled for it. Living in MA during the Winter months it was hard to get around in it if we had more than 4" of snow, mostly because of being a automatic, with the VSA and the antilock brakes the van was not fun but a "burden" to drive.
We wanted a "bigger" vehicle and would have bought the Ridgeline or MDX if these came in 6 spds manuals, but they don't.
Now I'm taking a chance that the Rubicon being a 1st year model with a new V6 vs a straight 6 used on the previous Jeeps turns out to be a lemon ....as long as is under warranty and I in the meantime I don't mind driving it as much as I like driving my TL, then I wont worry about it but just have fun driving...which is one of the few pleasures I have....

03CoupeV6

Wait, HEK, you said that ABS, VSA, and the automatic made getting around in snow difficult? ABS and VSA are meant to help, and I'm assuming the Jeep will at least have ABS.

HEK

My point is that when you have a manual transmission you have more "control" of the vehicle and yes the Jeep has both ABS and VSA as well, but if you were allways taught that an automatic is the best thing since slice bread and you yourself have not driven a manual transmission then we can go on and on and it will be like arguing about Politics or Religion... , unfortunatelly we have come to become a "lazy" society so without hijacking the thread we can now discuss the back up cameras, hand free phones, the issue is that is just too bad we are getting used to aiming the vehicles and not enjoying driving....

03CoupeV6

No disagreements here.. I've had many manuals and will have one again when I trade in my 02 TL. I was just wondering how ABS and VSA could hurt snow performance, that's all. The only way to drive a car, IMO, is with a manual. Otherwise, you're just steering.