MEKO

iTrader: (1)

I would jump off the window if I understood anything from that post ^

nfnsquared

Huh?

I hate cars

Lol

Bruce Banner

iTrader: (2)

I roll 5W-30, no real harm. If anything protects better

hofiveo

Yeah its a roller 306 right now, have the oppurtunity to go to a 331. Have two sets of heads AFR 185 and AFR 205. Slowly wrapping up the re-wiring of whole car, mainly just engine bay left depending on what i do motor wise, with or with out NOS. Getting older and dont know if to run NOS or not, engine building wise. Looking to get to your GN time really or high 10's. Im getting another GN one day.Thanks for your contributions to this forum, I know many feel the same way.

pimpin-tl

It's called bad seals. Synthetic oil cleans the seals off and if they are bad is when you will get leaks.

nfnsquared

One can't really say it's a bad seal based off of a single drop of oil. You can pull the coil periodically and check it to see if it happens again or gets worse, but declaring that it's a bad seal is a little pre-mature at this point IMO....

And dino vice synthetic/synthetic blend makes no difference as far as leakage is concerned.

pimpin-tl

Actually synthetic has strong cleaning products in it, that clean the build up in the engine and renews the seals. If the seals were already getting bad, and it cleans the build up away from the, it will cause leaks. It's not the oil that causes them.

sjulier

I run Redline 0W-30, 7,500 OCI, OEM filter. I'll try Idemitsu 0W-30 when available for its higher VI. But for now I'm happy with Redline's 183 VI, the high zinc, phos and Moly and the class V POE base stock.

mau108

Ya i only use 5w30 because all my other cars need it. Not going to stock up on oil for one car.

4drviper

not high at all......................... jmo.

engine feels new @ 121k now

Bruce Banner

iTrader: (2)

It's easier to find deals on 5W-30, like costco with $10 off on a case of mobil

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

^ Pepboys has/had a deal for $35 you get 5 qrts royal purple with royal purple oil filter and they always have 5w20 and 5w30 ;-)

pimpin-tl

Pep Boys has till the end of the month M1 with M1 filter for $29.99. You can print the coupon off their website. Or today only $5.00 per quart of M1.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

Have you been using synthetic 5w20 or 5w30? Thanks.

I hate cars

You guys need to ask yourselves why exactly it is that you think you need a HM oil in your engines. Back when engines were carbureted they typically lasted half as long and even less as the same engine lasts when fuel injected. 100,000 miles is not even close to high mileage unless it's all in the city and even then it's not that high.

An engine has only two areas that change much over time and might require a different oil with age. The rod/main bearings and the ring/cylinders with valve guides as a distant 3rd place. As the rod and main bearing clearances open up, oil pressure goes down. Without the fuel dilution of the carburetor, and with only 258hp spread out over 6 cylinders and assuming it's not detonating, rod and main bearing wear is almost non existent. This type of wear has little to no effect on engine performance whether it's power or mpg.

Next is ring to cylinder wall wear. When excessive wear occurs in this area you take a hit on power and mpg (a slight hit), the oil gets dark quicker, and the main reason people use a HM oil- you get oil consumption/burning. The HM oil might reduce consumption a bit. But again, without a carburetor to wash down the cylinders with raw fuel, there's very, very little wear going on.

If your TL is not consuming oil you probably don't need a HM oil. I would not worry about changing oils assuming you're already running a 5w-30 until you've passed 300,000 miles and even then it might not be necessary. For those running Redline 5w-30 you've already got the advantages of a HM oil along with all of the other advantages of that oil, don't change a thing.

Many of the truths of the carbureted engine carried over to the fuel injected engine and no one ever questioned it. A plugged air filter causing a loss in mpg is one of them. It can cause a loss in mpg on a carbureted engine but it's impossible on a fuel injected engine. A 3,000 mile oil change interval was necessary on a carbureted engine due to oil contamination but 5,000 miles on a fuel injected engine is easier on the oil than 3,000 when carbureted. 100,000 miles was toward the end of an engine's life when carbureted but when fuel injected you have another 200,000 miles to go but somehow people never adjusted.

Acura switched the J32 from a 5w-30 to a 5w-20 with no mods to the engine. Hot idle oil pressure suffered as a result of this thinner oil. One of the best engine builders in this community has stated that even when stock, oil pressure is scary low at idle on a 5w-20. That's why I recommend a 5w-30 no matter if it's being raced or driven to the grocery store. The government forced them to recommend an oil that will provide adequate protection but is far from the best for engine life. You have to keep in mind that many maintenance recommendations are not from the engineers that designed the car. It's a compromise between the engineers and marketing and the government. Acura wants to sell cars so long intervals is great. The government only cares about the mpg the car gets when new, not realizing that if an engine wears quicker, it pollutes more. Once you're running a good 5w-30, there's really no need to change for a very, very long time.

4drviper

OEM 5W20 till 85000miles, amsoil sig 5W20 since then until few hundred miles ago i put 10W40 for towing.

nfnsquared

^^^^^Documentation??

FWIW, I'm at 130K and have run 5W20 syn blend (Mobil 1 and Honda) except for one interval where I tried M1 0W40. To date, the oil level has never been down more than 1/2 quart after a 7500 MID oil change interval. I see no reason to change anything at this point.

A couple of observations (not sure they mean anything at this point):

1. On the 0W40 change, I had a noticeable proportional increase in iron. It was back to normal on the next oil change interval using Honda 5W20 syn blend. The 0W40 was added when I did the TB change and valve adjustment (and new plugs). I ran it for a 10K inteval (1 year). I have no idea why the high iron content on that interval, but it is a bit curious...

2. The Honda 5W20 syn blend seems to hold it's own performance wise, although it did have a lower TBN (1.3 vs 2.1) than M1 5W20. I can buy it in bulk from my local Honda dealer at any time for $2.75/qt (take an empty 5 qt jug in).

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/uoa-thread-843573/

I still have some M1 0W40 and out of curiosity think I'll run it again next oil change and see what happens to the iron.

I hate cars

UOA wear metals mean nothing whatsoever, absolutely nothing, nada, zero. You will never see a rhyme or reason to your results because they are worthless, they show only very small particles that are typical of normal oxidation and cleaning but not the larger particles that are indictive of excessive wear. An oil that cleans well like Mobil One will show higher iron. Get a particle count.

Low oil pressure will not be known without a gauge but the wear is still occurring.

nfnsquared

The truth is that Honda/Acura engines (and other makes as well) have been designed to run on 5W20 and 0W20 oil for years (circa 2001). Honda/Acura didn't just spontaneously decide to go with 5W20 (and now 0W20) oils. There has been years of extensive R&D on this subject. No one should be the least bit concerned about running the OEM recommended grade of oil in your TL.

http://www.pinkbird.com/news.nsf/8d7...Has%20Come.pdf

nfnsquared

^^^^ one more:

http://www.infineum.com/sitecollecti...a%20042109.pdf

Bruce Banner

iTrader: (2)

I noticed the 04 TL is not on that chart. I wonder what is so different about the 04. It is nice to know that Honda is claiming a 1.5% increase in MPG between 5W-30 and 0W-20.

nfnsquared

Nothing different for the 04, probably just didn't have space to put them all on the chart.

Now, quite a few Acuras are certified tested for 0W20 as well. The chart below is from the Nov 2010 Acura service news:

I hate cars

I've had you on ignore for over 2 years and the first time I click on one of your posts I see you're up to the same old bs nonsense without the slightest understanding of anything automotive. Look up any INDEPENDENT study on fuel economy and you will find the normal mpg gain in city driving from a 5w-30 to a 0w-20 is at most .5 mpg. Most gains come during the warmup process where the 0w-20 is thinner. There is no measurable gain if you do mostly highway driving. What you do get from a 0w-20 is significantly more wear from a reduced HTHS value. That .5mpg (best case) must be very important to you lol. You will never find an independent review that will claim equal or less wear with the thinner oils, only twisted words. There's still the oil pressure issue. The "documentation" is on this site, search. I've spent a few hundred dollars on white papers on fuel economy, oil viscosity, and wear plus knowing many industry insiders. You can recite the usual Internet junk as "proof" as anything on google or from a manufacturer who has an agenda seems to be gospel in your book but I'll stick to facts and experience.

The manufacturer knows the engine will have a "long enough" service life on the thin stuff. That does not mean it won't last significantly longer on the thicker stuff and be in better shape at a given mileage. I didn't read the article but I would be willing to bet it covers mostly low friction engines and start stop engines which stand to benefit from the thinner oils without as much wear.

You're still putting faith in UOAs for engine wear for Gods's sake. When will you learn. You believe anything you read on a website without questioning it. Spend some money on real actual independent white paper studies and you might change your tune. I know one of the Ford modular engine designers which is most of the Ford engines out there and he said he would never ever run anything less than a 40wt in the engines that spec 20wt if you're looking for the lowest wear. I can write a book on oil viscosity vs temp and why there's no such thing as a "best" viscosity for all temps. If the oil temp never went above 160 I might run a 20wt. Tell me, what changes did Acura make to the engines to run these thinner oils?

nfnsquared

Never made any claims or said anything about fuel savings, only pointed out that Acura has done significant, documented testing and R&D on their OEM oil viscosity recommendations, so maybe you should read a little closer.

I'll take Jeff Jetter's and Acura/Honda eningeers' word/s over your unsubstantiated claims any day, so please put me back on ignore.

The rest of the people here can decide if they want to believe you or Acura engineers.

I'll say it again, no one should be the least bit concerned about running OEM recommended oil in their TL.

Bruce Banner

iTrader: (2)

Honda is claiming a 1.5% increase in MPG between 5W-30 and 0W-20, sooooo we can infer from that, the gains in MPG are really pretty dismal for going to a thinner oil.
calculating more conservatively lets say you gain 2% going from 5W-30 to the now "recommended" 5W-20. Assuming you get 300Mi till the gas light goes on, you net 6Mi per tank. That debunks the people claiming how they gained 1-2MPG going with the thinner oil.(assuming that is the only variable)
6MPG gain per tank vs longevity of the motor....

nfnsquared

Yeah, at the current national avg price of premium gas ($3.75), it saves a little over $0.05/gal or roughly $0.65 - $0.70 per fill up.

Agreed, based on the Honda/Acura data, no one is getting a 1-2 MPG gain from 0W20.

However, if they were using the MID only to calculate MPG, then the 1.5% increase could be enough to move the MID avg up to the next whole MPG (e.g. actual MPG was 29.6 and the MID showed 29 MPG. Then, with a 1.5% increase, the actual MPG moves to 30.04 and now the MID reads 30). Based on that, I could see where someone could mistakenly make a claim of a 1 MPG gain.

As far as longevity of the motor, as noted in Jetter's video and the other documents, 0w20 has been run in Japanese engines (engines specifically designed to run on 0W20, like ours) since 2001 with no ill effects.

Bearcat94

However, with the number of cars sold as a multiplier, it could be enough marginally to improve CAFE performance, and this I think is the ultimate goal.

I hate cars

Exactly. IF they could get a .5 mpg gain over a million cars sold, that's huge for Honda. For the individual it makes no sense. That's when you have to think for yourself and decide whether it's worth it to you. To Honda there's no doubt it's worth it.

I hate cars

If you want to believe the guys selling the cars, go for it. I'll believe the independent white papers, my own experience, and the industry insiders that I know. For the 10th time the engineers rarely get their way, it's the bean counters, marketing, CAFE, etc, that come up with the oil recommendations. If you believe these recommendations come from the engineers with engine longevity in mind you'll believe anything. Learn to be more critical of your sources, learn to read between the lines and try to use common sense.

Ever see how it works, how the manufacturers are penalized for each car that does not spec a 0w-20? Ever see the benefits they receive for backdating older cars to 0w-20? Buy one of these white papers and you might understand what I've been saying if you're capable of basic reading comprehension. The manufacturer knows this oil is not the best for lowest wear but it will still last "long enough" for them. It might not be long enough for the person that paid $40,000 for their new car but it's good enough to avoid warranty claims.


So again, show me how our engines are "designed" for a 0w-20. Show me the changes that were made to make best use of this oil. Show me this R&D. Ford at least used a higher volume oil pump, Acura did nothing for the 3g. All you have is a guy on a video who has a huge interest in making people believe 0w-20 is just as good as 5w-30. Your HTHS value goes down with viscosity and way down with a 0wt. I've posted the tests done by GM on HTHS vs rod bearing wear. It's indisputable that the lower the HTHS the higher the wear. There's nothing you can say to change this. What it comes down to is the individual. Is it worth it to YOU to sacrifice more engine wear for an immeasurable mileage gain. The engine will still last plenty long on the 0w-20 but it's still wearing quicker and if it's moddded and run hard all the time it can be a significant difference. Is it worth the $.50 at each fillup?

nfnsquared

Sorry, gonna go with the Honda/Acura engineers and the 10 years of actual usage in the European and Japanese markets over the self-proclaimed expert. Again, no one should be the least bit concerned over using Acura/Honda OEM oil recommendations.

You can now put me back on ignore, but it was nice to know you couldn't resist taking me off ignore, if you ever really had me there to begin with

Bruce Banner

iTrader: (2)

However, now it is getting into why Honda did it. I think people involved with this thread are more on a micro level about why they themselves should use it. So for individual gain, it's dismal.

I hate cars

Find a single post where I have replied to you in the couple years. You're the only person I've ever put on ignore because you're the only person who is not smart enough to realize you don't know shit.

Show me these engineers you speak of. All I've seen is the marketing department reading a script. Show me an independent with nothing to gain or lose. Show me these changes you claim Honda made to our engines to run this oil. Show me this proof you have that no additional wear occurs with the 0w-20. Read up on the direct relation of HTHS and engine wear and then look up the typical 0w-20 vs 5w-30 HTHS value. There is indisputable proof but apparently a video made by a company that has everything to gain by suggesting a 0w-20 and a lot to lose by not suggesting it says. If you buy one of these papers you will see that they receive government incentives by backdating the 0w-20 to older models.

No one has to believe me, all they have to do is buy the white papers to see that I'm right. I would take white papers, my engine building and rebuilding, and my design engineer friend that designed an engine family over what, some one who has driven a Japanese car which somehow makes him as expert? I've backed up my statements with facts and reasons why. All I've seen from you is a bunch of rhetoric based on a video from some guy in Hondas marketing department.

bonnhew

i got my oil changed at speedy lube..they had 5W20. i have no idea what brand it was tho. does the type S take 4.5 or 5 full quartz? looks like they only put in 4.5quarts. hmm

4drviper

so now that J32 is "designed" to use 5W30, i can use 10W40 for heavy duty applications right? lol it's only one step up...

Legend2TL

FWIW, my wife's 2003 Pilot (J35 motor) has 216K miles with only using Castol 5W-20 (synthetic and semi-synthetic) changed at 5-7K intervals with extremely little usage (<1/4 qt). Just looked at the cams/followers during a timing belt change/valve adjustment. Everything looked amazing clean and the cam follower pads and cam lobes look virtually new.

Nothing new I've been using Castrol oil in Honda/Acura since the mid 80's and have had great results, no lubrication problems in 11 vehicles with 4 vehicles getting to 250K+ miles.

Modern oil and engine design are really amazing.

As for the video I'd listen to the principal chemist and recommendations from the vehicle manufacturer than anyone on this forum myself included. The manufacturer will have far more information and data than any outsider will ever see. The manufacturer will not only have data on how the oil performs (flow/pressure/temp/...) from test bed motors they will also have extensive data from the validation/verification motors from actual test vehicle road usage. Also working with the engineering they have extensive knowledge as to to the design parameters (bearing clearance, material, oil orifices/distribution, surface finishing,...) that control the oil film thickness and flow/retention on the moving surfaces depending on the operating environment and use/load conditions.

Not sure if I will switch to 0W-20, as I've had no problems with 5W-20 in 05 TL and 03 Pilot. Honda is not perfect (2000's AT debacle, 1990's Tec distributors, ....) but I feel they do strive to make reliable long lasting products by far.

Legend2TL

Hard to say what it was designed to since you have a 2007 TL, my guess is it's oil requirement was probably 5W-20.

As for the 10W-40, I can potentially see the usage of 5W-30 in certain environments (hot climates, towing, ...) but I would not recommend a 10W-40 since the winter viscosity of 10 is 5 more that of the recommended 5W. Cold starting wear and initial oil flow may not be as good as the 5W-20 or 5W-30.

FWIW pretty decent oil spec chart

http://motoroilbible.com/data-comparisons-combined.pdf

Legend2TL

+1, yep that's the primary reason probably.

However one fallacy is the belief that thicker oil is always better for protection and wear. It all comes down to environment and operating conditions that dictate the oil recommendation.

A 20W50 may be worst than a 10W40 under normal climate (20-30oC) for motors that recommend those ranges. I had a long drawn out conversation with a Honda engineer from Gardena CA awhile about this and other engine stuff.

4drviper

my 10 @ 40F is probably thinner than 5W20 @ 10F.

and akhsd;ljsa;ldfjsal;dfhsldfjs;dl i believe it's designed for 30 but accepts 20 too. for everyday driving so my starting point is 30, and one scale up to 40 for towing

nfnsquared

I'm glad at least one other person in this forum is smart enough to realize this.