chayos00

Hey guys, I'm seeing that there are several guys out there including myself who have made the switch over to the Redline Racing ATF (Type F) tranny fluid, and now their car has tranny issues.

Now before I get bashed because someone thinks I'm being negative about the fluid, I'm not. I just want to see who else has had issues. As I've seen a few other folks having issues now.

If you had an issue please just state what the problem you had, how many original tranny fluid miles and how many are on the Type-F, and what the fix was. This isn't a troubleshooting post either, so if you are looking for assistance on your specific issue please start another thread.

Thanks guys! Just fact gathering!

chayos00

So far I have seen the following people have issues.

myself (chayos00)
paperboy42190
pohljm

TLTrance

To be fair, pohljm's failed tranny happened 1.5K after he put in the Type F fluid, so I'm not sure if anyone can associate the failure due to the fluid. I'd imagine the tranny was on its way out already.

That said, I'm curious myself. I have a box of Type F fluid (12 quarts from Amazon) that sits unopened. I'm inclined to try D4 first, since it's a LOT better than the crappy Z1.

That said, I'm also interested to hear more people's experiences (in addition to inaccurate's and ihatecars') when using Type F.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

<----about 15000 miles with amsoil type F. 9000 of those miles are boosted and I beat on the car. Not one problem. 'nuff said?

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

i really hope my problem is just with the pressure switches, though i doubt it. its more likely that its my tranmission thats failing. so sad
the slipping is okay if i dont look for it, but if im looking for it watching the tachometer its very annoying.

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

Mine after the switch is harder shifts but IHC said he can't even notice his car shifting when he switched. I can feel my car shift because of the lunges, it will rev up but not slip then switch gears which creates a lunge. As stated before in my theory I assume that the firmer shifts is causing shock inside the transmission (especially if you can feel it through the car, the lunge) each time it shifts, this probably causes wear to the tranny. The theory behind this fluid is good tho, to prevent slipping of clutch material. I'll probably get bashed for this but I may consider switching to dw-1 my next oil change to see if there's a noticeable difference. I fear that the lunges over time will not only annoy me and make me want to go crazy but wear on the mounts from the movement as well. Good luck to everyone tho!

lilsid112

iTrader: (7)

As some of you know, I had my trans replaced by Acura about a couple months ago. I replaced my switches, filter, and did a 3x3 with Z1 at about 52k. At about 64k I decided to go the type F route and performed a 3x2 with Redline. At about 71k I noticed my trans having a hard shift from 1 to 2. Then from 2 to 3, and 3 to 4 it would slip at regular driving. If I was driving hard it would shift perfect at higher rpms and have no issue with it slipping.

Anyway I took it to Acura and they declared it was the trans on its way out after the tech drove it. Since Im out of warranty I called Acura Client Service and got them to cover most of the cost to Jun. After faxing him all my service records for my drain and fills.

By no means am I trying to bash the type F fluid, it could have very well been my trans coming to the end of its life before I switched.

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

^^ Thanks for sharing. Like I said, the theory behind the fluid is great (less clutch wear and quicker shifting) but maybe this fluid isn't meant for DD, yes many people have done a 3x3 and works fine. I guess it's a hit and miss perhaps? I DD my vehicle and notice the lunge shifts and your right it shifts flawless once I get on it and the rpms are higher. I predict that the dd's with this fluid is not necessary perhaps.

AcRightLINY

Great thread. Lots of useful info. I have 6 bottles of redline atf and 3 of lightweight redline atf and now I'm not sure if I'll even use them.

maknwar

I am glad I found this thread. I switched to redline type F (around 10K ago) and now going from 2nd to 3rd, it slips like crazy. WTF should I do?

DUHockey9

I'm almost 5k miles into Redline Racing with no issues (84k miles total).

soulimports

also could the posters who have had problems or not have problems state whether they have an 04-06 or 07-08

chayos00

I was thinking, I wish there was a way to test our tranny on a machine that simulates city driving. What I would like to do is put Honda fluid in 1, and then D4 in another, then Type-F in another, then I guess to put in Z1 in one, then run it for a time and then switch it over to Type-F to see what happens. I would be curious tear down each tranny and to see how each tranny looks after say 30K intervals as most people would go this long before looking at their tranny fluid.

I do start to wonder if switching to another fluid after a number of miles on the original Z1 fluid is bad no matter what fluid was used. Like I have heard said, who knows if the crappy fluid is holding the tranny together, then with the new juice it just lets go. Either way if I get a new TL, out comes the Honda fluid!!!

lilsid112

iTrader: (7)

I have an 05

Maybe it could be the way we are introducing the fluid. If we introduced the type f slowly and not do a 3x3, maybe it would have less effect on our trans.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

Once again, the best way to introduce the fluid is by doing a 1x3 every 1k mile or so.

If you do a straight 3x3 immediately, you're more likely to mess up something.

I hate cars

Not a single failure can be pinned on the Type F. If you look back through the racing fluid thread, most of the transmissions that had the Type F installed were shuddering and on their way out already. To my surprise, they're still in service, some for more than a year even though they were in failure mode when the fluid was put in.

Let's not throw names out there of guys that have potential other issues like switches being installed wrong.

There's no need to do a test to see which one has less wear. Type F will always have less clutch wear period. This might be new info on this board but it's fairly common knowledge in the racing world and with high end trans shops.

I'm not sure what you want out of this fluid. It's saved so many transmissions that were about to be replaced and you get one, maybe two people that had failures while using this fluid in a fairly high mileage situation and you're on a witch hunt.

The only stats I would like to see is if more of the harsh shifting complaints are on '07-'08 models.

Have the guys complaining of harsh shifts done the switches yet. It's possible the Type F fluid can make cold shifts and downshifts harsher with old pressure switches. IMO, these two should be done together. Many of the problems caused by the old, bad switches can be exaggerated by the Type F fluid. It won't cause failures but it can be annoying to the driver.

With the old swtiches, mine shifted hard on the Amsoil ATD that I had been using for 70,000 miles when cold and on downshifts. I replaced the switches and the shifting through all gears improved but especially the cold shifting and the downshifting. Due to the non friction modified (aggressive but in a good way) nature of type F, it can make some of these issues better but it can make some worse.

chayos00

"Not a single failure can be pinned on the Type F." <-- Now how can you say this for sure. How is it my tranny, that had 40K on it, that had ZERO issues prior gave out after about 4-5K with the Type-F fluid in it, that the Racing ATF couldn't have contributed to the flare I had on the 2-3 shift that required a tranny replacement by Acura. Yeah I understand that the Z1 is a sh!tty fluid and probably didn't help with my issue, but it makes sense how the hard shifting that was followed not initially, but progressively got worse after a while on the tranny. Not sure when exactly as this is my wife's DD.

I know you are getting tired of all these tranny threads, but don't get all pissed off and defensive of the fluid. Yeah I'm sure there are a number of people that this juice has helped. But it obviously doesn't work in every situation.

In my opinion it's either way, it's obviously best to get out the Honda fluid from the get go. If we end up replacing the TL with another TL, I can tell you the first thing I'm doing is a swap of the ATF.

I hate cars

It's pure coincidence and it's the most unreliable 5at ever built. Your trans had 40K on it. It could be a cracked piston, torn seal, stuck valve, etc. You could have had varnish somewhere that the new fluid cleaned and ended up sticking a valve or plugging something up somewhere. Look around, these things fail all the time at 40K on Z1. You have to analyze what happened. Did you replace the switches too, if so, did you put the right switch in the right hole? You do not know your trans was in great shape before the fluid install, you're guessing. It is 100% impossible for this fluid to cause a flair. It has a ton more holding power than Z1. You tell me how making the fluid more slippery will make it less likely to flair.

Show me all of these other failures on Type F. I see a couple harsh shift posts, no failures other than yours, and a hundred positive posts. This is what sucks. You have tens of thousands of failures on Z1, a class action lawsuit with it in the trans and your ONE transmission failure while using Type F that used Z1 90% of it's life fails 5,000 miles later and you blame the fluid. It takes one person and one failure for the witch hunt to begin.
Tired? I'm beyond tired of these threads. This stuff has helped EVERYONE. I'll guarantee yours would have failed sooner if you had not used it. I would love to see a list of transmissions you think this fluid has hurt. Your trans failed, it sucks, move on. I am soooooo tired of defending this shit all because people do not understand how it works.
Now I never did mention clutch wear, I stated lets see how each tranny looks after 30K. Yeah theoretically it's not supposed to wear the clutch, but something is giving out in our TL's tranny. What it is, Acura sure won't tell us, they are too scared to even crack open the tranny. I'm sure with their history of transmission issues they are just trying to find a way around the issue.

As to my mentioning of clutch wear, what exactly do you think wears out in an auto? Slipping clutches is what gives the flair. Hard part wear is extremely rare. You rebuild the trans when the clutch packs wear out. Type F greatly extends the life of the clutches. When you do a teardown, comparing clutch pack wear is what you do.



If I had it to do over again I would never have started or posted in these fucking threads. You try to help people and all you get is bullshit questions every step of the way. Please, don't use this fluid but don't try and talk others out of a good fluid that will greatly extend the life of their trans. Honestly I don't really care if this thread sways people away from the fluid. The people who actually care enough to do research and read the other threads explaining how and why it works so well along with all the testimonials will still do what they do and the lazy people will stop here and go with something else. I guess it all works out in the end.

I hate cars

Your poll is a bit misleading too. The trans having unresolved issues could be pre-existing issues but I see what you're doing here.

chayos00

IHC, it seems we are more a like than not. I'm not trying to upset you or anything, I took your thoughts and knowledge to heart when it came to me switching to the Racing ATF. As I do research the heck out of things before I choose to switch. Yeah it may have been just bad timing for me, but I will never know.

Sorry, but whatever was the cause of my tranny failure did make me gun shy from trying it again. But either way I had to get the crappy DW-1 out of the tranny. Plus with the fact that I don't drive the car daily, I figured since the wife did start complaining of how the car shifted I figured I would go the safe route and do the D4.

As far as the switches, when I was going to change them was close to the time I started to have the issues so I figured, well i'll just let Acura deal with it.



Side not for everyone else, please take all into account and don't just take my issue as the only reason not to try anything. I just made this thread to ask the simple question that I stated as the topic.

emeka206

Stock tranny fluid for me. works excellent too

DUHockey9

I'm starting to think the Standard Operating Procedure should be replacing the switches first, and then later replacing the ATF. This way, people can confirm the new switches are working correctly, and not causing any issues. From there, an ATF change makes sense, and should anyone have any problems, it's far easier to pinpoint what may be the "cause".

Hell, if someone wants to be crazy thorough. Replace the switches, drive for a while to confirm they are fine. Then do a 3X3 with whatever current fluid you are running. Drive for a while to confirm that new fluid (of any kind) isn't causing the issue. (Some people suggest that if a tranny is already on the way out, the old fluid could almost be holding everything together. Doing this method could help to eliminate that variable.) After confirming fresh fluid is not causing any issues, do a 3X3 with whatever fluid you'd like to switch to.

Maybe I'm simplifying things too much, but if people are trying to pinpoint "cause", it's got to be one of 3 things:

1) switches
2) fresh fluid (of any kind)
3) an ATF change

Doing the above could isolate each of the 3 variables, and help pinpoint which, if any, is causing an issue.

Either that, or your tranny is dying anyway, and nothing can fix it haha.

I hate cars

I think that's an excellent summary.

myblack04tl

I think the OP's tranny had issues before the fluid swap. I doubt the Type F caused this failure. Look how many of our tranny's fail with such low miles.

I've had a few turbo350's (GM) with 80K or more on the original fluid and when I changed the filter and fluid the trans failed shortly after. It is not the fluid it was a tired transmission that never had fresh fluid changes.

lilsid112

iTrader: (7)

By no means am I trying to bash the type f fluid. I think its great that IHC and many other forum members have contributed to this site. I most likely had issues before switching fluids. Even after getting a new trans put in, Ill be using redline on my next drain and fill. All in all I think its excellent fluid and I just got unlucky with my first trans.

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

Hey IHC, now could this fluid that causes the shifting to be harsher pose a shock as in unwanted pressure and force on the tranny causing it to fail. I mean if there is no fm and it just grabs the clutch material fast wouldn't that harm it over time tho? I mean yeah there's only one or two tranny failures related to the fluid but I see a few more including me noticing the harsher shifts and lunges. Any insight?

I hate cars

The answer to the first part is yes. Additional shock can break things. That's always the compromise you make in racing, finding that balance in harsh enough to save wear on the clutches but not so harsh you start breaking stuff. However, too harsh and you break hard parts like axles and internals. This doesn't result in flares and such, usually the car just stops moving. In the TL's case, hard parts are not breaking but clutches are wearing out.

The second part is something I had trouble grasping for a long time. I was even told that harsh shifts can break the clutch material from the metal backing plate. I've since learned that's not the case. I'm lucky in that I get to talk to some of the industry's experts so I get straight answers. I've bought some of the white papers as has Inaccurate on the effects of FM on clutches and transmissions in general.

The typical bump shift that's caused from too much FM like my TL had before switching over actually puts much more stress on everything than a snappy shift from Type F. Basically if it can survive the slide and then bump from the Z1, Type F is a piece of cake.

Clutch wear is almost entirely time based. Getting the clutches to engage as quick as possible will result in the least amount of wear. I would like to know more info on these lunges and if they're isolated to the '07-'08 transmissions and of course, if the switches have been replaced.

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

Well the lunges are on my 2005. It will shift nicely when i'm in the upper rpm's however, more agressive driving. The lunge shifts feel like i'm accelerating and when it shifts it drops into the next gear but in between it, it doesn't rev like it slips a little and then shifts, maybe what i'm describing is slipping? I have replaced both sensors, no noticeable improvement, then swapped the fluid 3x3 and it's when these lunges happen.

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

Or now that I think about it, it happens quickly. Scenario two, i'm giving it gas, rpm's rising, when it's about to shift the rpms keep rising in the same gear a bit more then a swift shift into the next gear, then I feel the lunge. ehh...hard to explain.

lilsid112

iTrader: (7)

^^^ Have you tried reseting the ecu?

chayos00

Ok, I do have one question, when i had a manual transmission back in the day. I had the clutch go out. Standard flare in every gear. But the one thing I remember is that no matter how hard I drove it before I changed the clutch, it slipped at ALL RPM's even WOT.

Now how is it that these TL's slip up to around 5K then they shift normally above that RPM range? If a clutch is slipping it's slipping at all times, not just in a certain RPM range.

That makes me wonder if it is more so related to a valve, or something of that nature versus the clutch pack. Like maybe something is getting plugged from the fluid. But Acura will never know, as they send them back to a tranny shop.

JDM RICe

kinda of off topic, but is it recommended that an ECU reset be performed after pressure switch changes and fluid changes? I've changed all of my switches and have done a 3x2 so far out of the 3x4 planned (performing fluid drain and refills every 2k miles)

My tranny shifts are smooth and snappy except for 2 --> 3rd. 2nd gear kind of hangs (like it's thinking about it, but there's no slippage that I can tell/feel) before shifting into 3rd. I guess you would call that "Shudder"?

I hate cars

In a manual, the dry clutch is applied with a spring.

In an auto, the many clutches (several for each gear) are applied by hydraulic pressure acting on an apply piston or by a band and drum.

In an auto, all gears are always engaged. There's no actual "shifting" going on. Gear changes are done by applying one set of clutches while releasing another set at the same time.

The ECU can manipulte the hydraulic overall pressure, pressure curve, etc. It sends much more pressure under heavy throttle and high rpms. If it used the same pressure under heavy throttle as it does under light throttle, you would have slippage.

I believe the 1-2 shift is controlled purely mechanically with the standard accumulator and a servo/piston to apply the clutch pack. The rest are controlled by the ECU. The ECU controls the shift quality (firmness) by adjusting line pressure. It uses solenoids to do this. These can plug up, stick, not to mention all of the valves and orifices in the valvebody. All it takes is one valve to hang up and you have burned clutches.

The clutches in the 5at are bathed in trans fluid. The only thing the type f changes is it's not as slippery as Z1. The clutches engage quicker and firmer because the fluid is not as slippery.

The most likely scenario in your case is either the trans was on it's way out or the addition of a new fluid knocked some debris loose and stuck a valve. It only takes a second or two of slip to burn up the clutches in an auto. They're not made to slip like a 6mt.

joelmatt89

iTrader: (1)

question for I hate cars, since your inbox is full. I would agree that type f can't cause more harm. But is there any way to make it shift slightly smoother, and cause minimal wear. It seems like it has something to do for me at least with viscosity. I notice the hard shift more when the engine is cooler. Would mixing type f with another fluid that has some friction modifier help at all or is that too much of a risk?

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

^^^ most people make a cocktail like mix. They use D4 and full type F.

08WDPTL

what year TL do you have? I have an 08 with 35K miles and I notice the same issue. It only occurs sporadically when I'm being light on the gas and only between 2nd and third. I've noticed if I give the car more gas, the "lunge" is not as prominent.

I'm still on the stock fluid and haven't replaced the pressure switches yet (although I'm considering the switch to racing fluid very soon).

Interesting thread.

I too am curious to hear from more people who have an 07-08 and done the type F switch.

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

07 tl-s reporting in.

did a 3x3 about 7k miles ago. replaced factory Z1 fluid with redline ATF. 6 qts racing/3 qts lightweight. immediately noticed a difference in shift quality. went from slight choppy shifts w/ Z1...to smooth, fluent shifts with redline. gears seem to fall into one another with no hesitation or jerking. going from P->R is smooth now as well. no delay or jerking. everything shifts PERFECTLY in my eyes. feels fantastic.

did another 1x3 last night (after '3x3' 7k miles ago), 2 qts racing/1 qt lightweight. fluid that came out was still very pink (not brownish like the factory Z1) which is an indication of the quality of this ATF. i will continue to do a 1x3 every oil change (6-7k miles) until i have 100% redline. this stuff is great.

anyone who has had issues with their transmission after switching to a type-F fluid...has most likely had irreversable damage already done. if your trans is already on its way out, no amount of magical fluid or switches will cure it. you can't blame this fluid for causing your trans to crash.

i'd like to thank IHC and Innacurate for making me a firm believer in this product.

space_bound

My tranny was doing the shutters for about a year now and ever since about 88k I tried to kill my transmission by riding the shutters so that when it failed it would be under warranty and get a brand new transmission at 100k which would extend my cars life span and save me $$$$. Anyway the transmission wouldn't fail and the tech at Acura couldn't reproduce the shutters so I am at 99k and I decided to do the 3x3, all in the same day, and the pressure switches and the difference like IHC said is night and day. I cant tell when I switch from 1st to 2nd and the rest of the shifting is about the same. Downshifting is much faster as well. On the highway or even in 3rd or 4th if I press the accelerator it drops a gear and connects really fast.

In hindsight I wished I didn't do the sensors at the same time to see if the fluid stopped the shutters or the switches. I want to give massive thanks to IHC and inaccurate for doing the research for this fluid.

I am also using D4.

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

I have an 05'. When I did the switches at 88k I didn't notice any difference at all. When I switched to the fluid I noticed these lunges were much more intense (because there are no fm, so no slipping). If your experiencing lunges on the old z1 fluid I don't know if the type f will help with that, because it only made it worse on mine. But the shifts like everyone said, are faster and firmer which causes the lunge in mine.

lucnex

iTrader: (3)

So if we were to say do a 1x3 every 1-2K miles or so, and want to mix Type-F and D4, what would be the optimal ratio? Do we want more Type-F or more D4? My 05 has almost 45K on it and although I have no problems with my tranny I think I may want to get this taken care of now....

Its my only car, so the smoother the shifts are the better, I am assuming maybe 2 qts. D4/ 1 qt. Type-F?