whats faster auto or manual?.....
09-11-2009, 10:37 AM
#45
Under construction
iTrader: (3)
Btw, I had a few Mazda's before and they gave me so much trouble! But yeah I know, just cuz mine were bad doesn't mean they all are. I just don't like them
09-11-2009, 12:12 PM
#46
I'm actually a fan of Mazda, my last car was a turbo miata and was a blast and the RX8's a very fun car to drive, handles like a dream and makes the TL feel like a boat. BUT, it doesn't have the luxury options/feel/drive the TL has though. That and the rotary motors tend to... you know... blow up lol. I for one won't own the 8 out of warranty, but fortunately mazda extended the warranty on it to 8 years for free w00t!
09-11-2009, 12:38 PM
#47
I'm also one of those "dying breeds" who, as long as the necessary body parts work, will never buy an automatic for my personal driving machine. The most common excuse I hear from people who decide to go with the automatic is driving in traffic (heavy). That never enters my mind. I breathe. I see. I hear. I process. Therefore, I operate a manual transmission. It's all just a natural thing with me.
09-11-2009, 12:57 PM
#48
I would change my job (or move). That's thousands of hours of your life flushed down the toilet...
09-11-2009, 05:36 PM
#49
Registered Member
A four hour one mile traffic "span" is hard to imagine. That certainly does beat anything I've ever been in. I would either change jobs or move if that was what I was dealing with on a regular basis. For example, I'm a software engineer. And even if I was offered a position paying $200,000 in D.C., I would turn it down. I just don't want to deal with that garbage dump.
09-11-2009, 07:18 PM
#51
Team Owner
Back to the topic. An auto saps power in two main ways. The biggest is the torque convertor. Second is the pump. The new pumps are variable displacement and don't require as much power on average to spin. Manufacturers have been using lockup torque convertors since the 80s but now they lock in nearly every gear except for first which greatly increases efficiency and nearly closes that gap between the manual models.
An auto will always shift faster than a manual, it's a continuous power flow. Great attention is paid to shift timing where one set of clutches is releasing while the other is applying. If this was off you would get a flare or a bind. If it's functioning properly, shifts are for all intents and purposes instant in an auto.
Many times a manufacturer will give the manual the better gearing and the auto the "economy" gearing just because manual buyers are more likely to take advantage of the nice gearing. Also, the torque convertor can bridge the large gaps between gears.
In a slower car like the TL, it will be faster with a manual due to it's high revving nature and the better gearing. As hp levels go up, the gap starts closing. At the dragstrip you won't see many manual trans cars because they're slower. For instance my GN gets to 60mph in about 2 seconds on slicks. First gear is good to 28mph. From the time I let off the brake to the first shift is under 1 second. If it were a manual you would literally pop the clutch and immediately push it again and shift to second. Then there's the turbo engines that love autos. You can't build boost on the line with a manual unless you have a 2 step. With an auto you can sit there at full boost waiting for the lights to drop.
I would venture a guess that an otherwise stock auto TL with a high stall convertor would be just as quick as a manual at the strip.
To sum it up, get a manual because you like shifting or to go auto-xing. Get an auto if you plan on modding it into a dragstrip terror or live in a high traffic area and hate shifting.
Mine is a daily driver that very rarely sees hard use. The auto just made sense.
An auto will always shift faster than a manual, it's a continuous power flow. Great attention is paid to shift timing where one set of clutches is releasing while the other is applying. If this was off you would get a flare or a bind. If it's functioning properly, shifts are for all intents and purposes instant in an auto.
Many times a manufacturer will give the manual the better gearing and the auto the "economy" gearing just because manual buyers are more likely to take advantage of the nice gearing. Also, the torque convertor can bridge the large gaps between gears.
In a slower car like the TL, it will be faster with a manual due to it's high revving nature and the better gearing. As hp levels go up, the gap starts closing. At the dragstrip you won't see many manual trans cars because they're slower. For instance my GN gets to 60mph in about 2 seconds on slicks. First gear is good to 28mph. From the time I let off the brake to the first shift is under 1 second. If it were a manual you would literally pop the clutch and immediately push it again and shift to second. Then there's the turbo engines that love autos. You can't build boost on the line with a manual unless you have a 2 step. With an auto you can sit there at full boost waiting for the lights to drop.
I would venture a guess that an otherwise stock auto TL with a high stall convertor would be just as quick as a manual at the strip.
To sum it up, get a manual because you like shifting or to go auto-xing. Get an auto if you plan on modding it into a dragstrip terror or live in a high traffic area and hate shifting.
Mine is a daily driver that very rarely sees hard use. The auto just made sense.
09-11-2009, 07:25 PM
#52
I dont get why everyone says oh manual is faster then the auto..... i mean the GTO the auto is faster and 370z auto is faster then the manual.
why does everyone say that the auto TL is so slow compared to the manual?
i just read in another thread that with bolt on mods you can get up to 330hp with manual and maybe 300-310 with auto... how does that make any sense?
20hp difference just cause of the tranny? does the auto tranny suck that bad?
why does everyone say that the auto TL is so slow compared to the manual?
i just read in another thread that with bolt on mods you can get up to 330hp with manual and maybe 300-310 with auto... how does that make any sense?
20hp difference just cause of the tranny? does the auto tranny suck that bad?
09-11-2009, 07:37 PM
#53
Maybe the extra quickness of the MT is also because you can dump the clutch a little?
The AT all you can do is floor it....and really now, it's not a slow mover like some of you make it out to be.
Someone already said it earlier, the AT is probably a better choice when heavy traffic is a daily obstacle.
The AT all you can do is floor it....and really now, it's not a slow mover like some of you make it out to be.
Someone already said it earlier, the AT is probably a better choice when heavy traffic is a daily obstacle.
09-12-2009, 02:39 AM
#56
Team Owner
Maybe the extra quickness of the MT is also because you can dump the clutch a little?
The AT all you can do is floor it....and really now, it's not a slow mover like some of you make it out to be.
Someone already said it earlier, the AT is probably a better choice when heavy traffic is a daily obstacle.
The AT all you can do is floor it....and really now, it's not a slow mover like some of you make it out to be.
Someone already said it earlier, the AT is probably a better choice when heavy traffic is a daily obstacle.
09-12-2009, 07:31 AM
#57
Registered Member
Back to the topic. An auto saps power in two main ways. The biggest is the torque convertor. Second is the pump. The new pumps are variable displacement and don't require as much power on average to spin. Manufacturers have been using lockup torque convertors since the 80s but now they lock in nearly every gear except for first which greatly increases efficiency and nearly closes that gap between the manual models.
An auto will always shift faster than a manual, it's a continuous power flow. Great attention is paid to shift timing where one set of clutches is releasing while the other is applying. If this was off you would get a flare or a bind. If it's functioning properly, shifts are for all intents and purposes instant in an auto.
Many times a manufacturer will give the manual the better gearing and the auto the "economy" gearing just because manual buyers are more likely to take advantage of the nice gearing. Also, the torque convertor can bridge the large gaps between gears.
In a slower car like the TL, it will be faster with a manual due to it's high revving nature and the better gearing. As hp levels go up, the gap starts closing. At the dragstrip you won't see many manual trans cars because they're slower. For instance my GN gets to 60mph in about 2 seconds on slicks. First gear is good to 28mph. From the time I let off the brake to the first shift is under 1 second. If it were a manual you would literally pop the clutch and immediately push it again and shift to second. Then there's the turbo engines that love autos. You can't build boost on the line with a manual unless you have a 2 step. With an auto you can sit there at full boost waiting for the lights to drop.
I would venture a guess that an otherwise stock auto TL with a high stall convertor would be just as quick as a manual at the strip.
To sum it up, get a manual because you like shifting or to go auto-xing. Get an auto if you plan on modding it into a dragstrip terror or live in a high traffic area and hate shifting.
Mine is a daily driver that very rarely sees hard use. The auto just made sense.
An auto will always shift faster than a manual, it's a continuous power flow. Great attention is paid to shift timing where one set of clutches is releasing while the other is applying. If this was off you would get a flare or a bind. If it's functioning properly, shifts are for all intents and purposes instant in an auto.
Many times a manufacturer will give the manual the better gearing and the auto the "economy" gearing just because manual buyers are more likely to take advantage of the nice gearing. Also, the torque convertor can bridge the large gaps between gears.
In a slower car like the TL, it will be faster with a manual due to it's high revving nature and the better gearing. As hp levels go up, the gap starts closing. At the dragstrip you won't see many manual trans cars because they're slower. For instance my GN gets to 60mph in about 2 seconds on slicks. First gear is good to 28mph. From the time I let off the brake to the first shift is under 1 second. If it were a manual you would literally pop the clutch and immediately push it again and shift to second. Then there's the turbo engines that love autos. You can't build boost on the line with a manual unless you have a 2 step. With an auto you can sit there at full boost waiting for the lights to drop.
I would venture a guess that an otherwise stock auto TL with a high stall convertor would be just as quick as a manual at the strip.
To sum it up, get a manual because you like shifting or to go auto-xing. Get an auto if you plan on modding it into a dragstrip terror or live in a high traffic area and hate shifting.
Mine is a daily driver that very rarely sees hard use. The auto just made sense.
BTW, a 2-second run to 60 MPH doesn't seem to equate to a 10.60 E.T. Two seconds to 60 would most likely put you in the lower 9's to high 8's. Either you're losing it on top end or perhaps you meant 2-seconds to the 60 foot marker.
As for shifting speed, here's a little link to check out. Mr. Sox was a master with the 4-speed and I modeled my shifting style in my '66 396 Chevelle after him, though I did not power shift - I speed shifted. And for those of you who are not the familiar with the difference in shifting methods, listen closely Ronnie Sox is power shifting this car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ODur5EP0Ho
We will never satisfy the argument between manuals and automatics. I submit that the fun factor is the primary decider here. I have owned one automatic for my personal driving machine and it was a mistake; a 1983 Toyota Cressida. Nice car, but not a driving machine. So I bought myself a toy - an '88 Mustang LX 302CID for fun.
Enjoy!
09-12-2009, 09:07 AM
#58
Pro
Yup, SMG II in the E46 M3, SMG III in the E60 and E63 M5/6 and the new Dual Clutch Gearbox in the E90/3 m3 (DCT). The SMG is used in F1 cars. They shift very fast and have limited drivetrain loss compared to auto, however they are heavier than manual.
09-12-2009, 09:16 AM
#59
Pro
Just like with my dads M5, you have to learn how to shift the sequential gearboxes...you must slightly cut back on throttle to get smooth responsive shifts.
On a side note, my best friends brother totally regrets buying his VW GTI w/ the DSG 6-speed auto (featuring super fast electro clutch blah blah). He going from his previous 5-speed manual GTI to this one, is a total 180. Driving manual is way more sporty fun and involved. Plus the DSG trans is still an AUTO that has NO IDEA WHEN YOU WANT IT TO SHIFT. And there is always lag between pressing the paddle and the time it actually makes the shift. Annoying...
09-12-2009, 01:15 PM
#60
Team Owner
The primary advantage with manuals is the direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels once the clutch is fully engaged. Since there is no fluid coupling, one gets the feeling of immediate reaction to throttle input. I have noticed that the lockup torque converter on the auto TL does not stay locked up much when a little throttle is applied. It will either slip or downshift under such conditions. Do you think this is largely do to the tuning for a lower torque engine such as our TL engine (238 ft/lbs is not that much torque)?
BTW, a 2-second run to 60 MPH doesn't seem to equate to a 10.60 E.T. Two seconds to 60 would most likely put you in the lower 9's to high 8's. Either you're losing it on top end or perhaps you meant 2-seconds to the 60 foot marker.
As for shifting speed, here's a little link to check out. Mr. Sox was a master with the 4-speed and I modeled my shifting style in my '66 396 Chevelle after him, though I did not power shift - I speed shifted. And for those of you who are not the familiar with the difference in shifting methods, listen closely Ronnie Sox is power shifting this car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ODur5EP0Ho
We will never satisfy the argument between manuals and automatics. I submit that the fun factor is the primary decider here. I have owned one automatic for my personal driving machine and it was a mistake; a 1983 Toyota Cressida. Nice car, but not a driving machine. So I bought myself a toy - an '88 Mustang LX 302CID for fun.
Enjoy!
BTW, a 2-second run to 60 MPH doesn't seem to equate to a 10.60 E.T. Two seconds to 60 would most likely put you in the lower 9's to high 8's. Either you're losing it on top end or perhaps you meant 2-seconds to the 60 foot marker.
As for shifting speed, here's a little link to check out. Mr. Sox was a master with the 4-speed and I modeled my shifting style in my '66 396 Chevelle after him, though I did not power shift - I speed shifted. And for those of you who are not the familiar with the difference in shifting methods, listen closely Ronnie Sox is power shifting this car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ODur5EP0Ho
We will never satisfy the argument between manuals and automatics. I submit that the fun factor is the primary decider here. I have owned one automatic for my personal driving machine and it was a mistake; a 1983 Toyota Cressida. Nice car, but not a driving machine. So I bought myself a toy - an '88 Mustang LX 302CID for fun.
Enjoy!
Also, not sure what it runs now, I've added roughly 100hp and taken off nearly 400lbs.
The direct coupling used to be the big advantage of the manual. Now more and more cars lockup the convertor in more and more gears. I wish more manufacturers kept them locked at WOT but locking at part throttle satisfies fuel economy requirements. Drivability may be an issue, I've noticed when I force a car to remain locked on the shifts under heavy throttle, upshifts and especially downshifts can get harsh.
FWIW, I rigged up a switch that locked my GN under WOT in evey gear except first. I picked up 4mph in the 1/4 from that. Truly a great mod, 4mph for $2. Can't do that anymore though.
I do think the TL unlocks the convertor to make sure it's in the powerband. The shift strategy isn't the smartest. Pulling the big hill here (the grapevine) the computer will unlock the convertor in 5th gear and heavy throttle. If I manually pull it down the 4th and back off the throttle to maintain speed, it relocks the convertor and rpms go down to what they were in 5th with it unlocked. One way builds a lot of heat and requires more throttle.
09-12-2009, 02:08 PM
#61
Registered Member
It pulls bottom 1.4 60' times. 0-60 happens in the 2 second range. Acceleration is far from linear, you can't really guess 0-60 times based on 1/4 times.
Also, not sure what it runs now, I've added roughly 100hp and taken off nearly 400lbs.
The direct coupling used to be the big advantage of the manual. Now more and more cars lockup the convertor in more and more gears. I wish more manufacturers kept them locked at WOT but locking at part throttle satisfies fuel economy requirements. Drivability may be an issue, I've noticed when I force a car to remain locked on the shifts under heavy throttle, upshifts and especially downshifts can get harsh.
FWIW, I rigged up a switch that locked my GN under WOT in evey gear except first. I picked up 4mph in the 1/4 from that. Truly a great mod, 4mph for $2. Can't do that anymore though.
I do think the TL unlocks the convertor to make sure it's in the powerband. The shift strategy isn't the smartest. Pulling the big hill here (the grapevine) the computer will unlock the convertor in 5th gear and heavy throttle. If I manually pull it down the 4th and back off the throttle to maintain speed, it relocks the convertor and rpms go down to what they were in 5th with it unlocked. One way builds a lot of heat and requires more throttle.
Also, not sure what it runs now, I've added roughly 100hp and taken off nearly 400lbs.
The direct coupling used to be the big advantage of the manual. Now more and more cars lockup the convertor in more and more gears. I wish more manufacturers kept them locked at WOT but locking at part throttle satisfies fuel economy requirements. Drivability may be an issue, I've noticed when I force a car to remain locked on the shifts under heavy throttle, upshifts and especially downshifts can get harsh.
FWIW, I rigged up a switch that locked my GN under WOT in evey gear except first. I picked up 4mph in the 1/4 from that. Truly a great mod, 4mph for $2. Can't do that anymore though.
I do think the TL unlocks the convertor to make sure it's in the powerband. The shift strategy isn't the smartest. Pulling the big hill here (the grapevine) the computer will unlock the convertor in 5th gear and heavy throttle. If I manually pull it down the 4th and back off the throttle to maintain speed, it relocks the convertor and rpms go down to what they were in 5th with it unlocked. One way builds a lot of heat and requires more throttle.
Enjoy your weekend!
09-12-2009, 04:56 PM
#62
Team Owner
I searched for a calculator that would give an approximate 0-60 time based on 60' but there's no such thing apparently.
I'm going over the race in my head, it's been a long time since it's been to the track with a full tune and on slicks.
Now you've got me second guessing myself.
Nice video, I have no sound, had to go to the parents to watch it. You don't hear the sound of people rowing their own gears in a car that fast very much anymore but it's a nice sound. That guy was a real driver, still powershifting as the car was headed to the edge of the track.
I searched for videos for GNs that run similar times to mine so you could hear the second to third gear shift (65mph) but every video I found, the GN was drowned out by whatever was sitting next to it.
So completely unrelated to the thread is this video but it was fun to watch. The infamous 3rd gear burnouts that we all do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3TNoRS6vSA
Have a good weekend.
09-12-2009, 11:55 PM
#63
Well I've heard about them for years, but nobody I know actually does them. Thanks for the video of the power-shifts. Pretty scary sounding when it over-revs, but I'll bet they hit like crazy.
My best friend speed-shifts his STI and it sounds/feels like a bat hitting the back of your head into 3rd. Pretty fun car (AWD Turbo 2.5L)
My best friend speed-shifts his STI and it sounds/feels like a bat hitting the back of your head into 3rd. Pretty fun car (AWD Turbo 2.5L)
09-13-2009, 12:09 AM
#64
Well I've heard about them for years, but nobody I know actually does them. Thanks for the video of the power-shifts. Pretty scary sounding when it over-revs, but I'll bet they hit like crazy.
My best friend speed-shifts his STI and it sounds/feels like a bat hitting the back of your head into 3rd. Pretty fun car (AWD Turbo 2.5L)
My best friend speed-shifts his STI and it sounds/feels like a bat hitting the back of your head into 3rd. Pretty fun car (AWD Turbo 2.5L)
09-13-2009, 05:17 PM
#66
8th Gear
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Wow, I cant believe how slow automatic is compared to manual! My dad just got the automatic and I have the manual. I just drove his car yeterday and it feels like a donkey. It is sooooooo much slower than manual, it feels like a geo metro, unbelievable there is such a difference. I though it would be a little slower but not this much!! snail car.
09-13-2009, 05:31 PM
#67
Wow, I cant believe how slow automatic is compared to manual! My dad just got the automatic and I have the manual. I just drove his car yeterday and it feels like a donkey. It is sooooooo much slower than manual, it feels like a geo metro, unbelievable there is such a difference. I though it would be a little slower but not this much!! snail car.
Total night & day difference...
09-13-2009, 09:42 PM
#68
Team Owner
Wow, I cant believe how slow automatic is compared to manual! My dad just got the automatic and I have the manual. I just drove his car yeterday and it feels like a donkey. It is sooooooo much slower than manual, it feels like a geo metro, unbelievable there is such a difference. I though it would be a little slower but not this much!! snail car.
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