VSA: Interesting Observations..
12-03-2004, 11:27 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by wavshrdr
I have to disagree with one point about this. There are autos that have a lockup TC (torque converter). Normally this only occurs in top gear and when this is engaged you get a DIRECT mechanical connection just like you would with a manual tranny! Problem is for most autos this only occurs at cruising speed. This is why the slippage of the auto makes the manual feel less connected.
However there is a manufacturer that has a auto that locks up the TC in every gear. My AMG Benz has the AMG reworked 5AT from the factory that locks up the TC in EVERY GEAR! You let off the throttle and it doesn't upshift automatically. When you get hard on the brakes it starts dropping gears to the optimum gear for maximum acceleration out of the turn. As soon as you let off the throttle the car instantly starts to slow with no free-wheeling effect. It modulates your launch depending on how hard you hit the throttle. Combine this with incredibly smooth and fast upshifts and downshift and you have a tranny that can do virtually everything a true manual can do and more!
It shifts quite quickly with no or almost no shock loads to the drive train. There is no way a human can shift as fast as this tranny without causing more harm to the drivetrain than the computer does. This car consistently ran 12 second 1/4 miles out of the box, time and time again so consistently that the first time I took it to the track I one my class in bracket racing. I ran 10 runs and my times never varied by more than .05-.09 seconds.
Everyone who saw the car run couldn't believe a) that it was stock and b) that it was an auto as they heard the car run. There was almost no slippage between shifts and a little slippage is actually beneficial at times anyway.
You can very easily vary how the car launches. If you want a hard launch but with more wheelspin, brake torque the TC. If you want more revs at launch you could neutral drop it but I would never condone that. You can just ease it out of the hole if you want as well. Maybe you can't do everything exactly the way a MT would do it but you can do many things if you are creative.
If you have a turbo car ATs are awesome for acceleration. You often are much quicker with an auto than a manual as you can furn full boost all through the run because you don't have to let up on the gas when you shift. As soon as you do that with a MT you lose boost.
So in my MB the TC locks up so there is no loss due to the TC. This occurs in every gear. Nor will the car upshift in the middle of a turn on a road course even if I let up on the throttle as it senses the laterally g loading on the car. As I mentioned earlier get hard on the brakes and it starts dropping gears when you are in the tip mode. It is an incredibly well thought out car. At first I didn't want to buy it because I couldn't get it with a manual.
After driving it for a few miles, some track time and doing some backroad racing against friends of mine in modded Audi S4's and other cars it made a believer out of me. I found that I could hang the tail out at 140+ with total control. Very easy to control my line through a turn just by modulating the throttle.
Unfortunately there aren't more of these types of ATs out there. Most of you seem to think that a clutch pedal some how makes the car better. Any more I am not in agreement with that viewpoint. I've driven the SMG BMW's and I can tell you I'll never miss a clutch pedal again with trannies like that and the one in my MB. They can do things that no human can possibly do. ATs have come a long ways.
I still would have probably boughten the 6MT though if it was a RWD or AWD car. I still enjoy it but I also am not oblivious to the fun it can provide though I must say the 5AT TL has been more fun to drive on a daily basis than I thought it would vs. the 6MT. At this point I'd say the FTD (fun to drive) factor is about 95% as good for me but the livability factor on a day to day basis is about 150% by having the 5AT. Obviously to each their own. No matter how you slice it the TL is not a cutting edge sport sedan when it comes to handling dynamics. It's not a slouch either but it doesn't have the razor sharp reflexes of other cars. Because of that I am more than content to pair it with the 5AT. Obviously others of you don't feel the same way. I appreciate that but if it were the ultimate sport sedan I'd be buying the 6MT and keeping it as weekend car instead of a daily commuter. In the commuter role the 5AT is a better fit.
However there is a manufacturer that has a auto that locks up the TC in every gear. My AMG Benz has the AMG reworked 5AT from the factory that locks up the TC in EVERY GEAR! You let off the throttle and it doesn't upshift automatically. When you get hard on the brakes it starts dropping gears to the optimum gear for maximum acceleration out of the turn. As soon as you let off the throttle the car instantly starts to slow with no free-wheeling effect. It modulates your launch depending on how hard you hit the throttle. Combine this with incredibly smooth and fast upshifts and downshift and you have a tranny that can do virtually everything a true manual can do and more!
It shifts quite quickly with no or almost no shock loads to the drive train. There is no way a human can shift as fast as this tranny without causing more harm to the drivetrain than the computer does. This car consistently ran 12 second 1/4 miles out of the box, time and time again so consistently that the first time I took it to the track I one my class in bracket racing. I ran 10 runs and my times never varied by more than .05-.09 seconds.
Everyone who saw the car run couldn't believe a) that it was stock and b) that it was an auto as they heard the car run. There was almost no slippage between shifts and a little slippage is actually beneficial at times anyway.
You can very easily vary how the car launches. If you want a hard launch but with more wheelspin, brake torque the TC. If you want more revs at launch you could neutral drop it but I would never condone that. You can just ease it out of the hole if you want as well. Maybe you can't do everything exactly the way a MT would do it but you can do many things if you are creative.
If you have a turbo car ATs are awesome for acceleration. You often are much quicker with an auto than a manual as you can furn full boost all through the run because you don't have to let up on the gas when you shift. As soon as you do that with a MT you lose boost.
So in my MB the TC locks up so there is no loss due to the TC. This occurs in every gear. Nor will the car upshift in the middle of a turn on a road course even if I let up on the throttle as it senses the laterally g loading on the car. As I mentioned earlier get hard on the brakes and it starts dropping gears when you are in the tip mode. It is an incredibly well thought out car. At first I didn't want to buy it because I couldn't get it with a manual.
After driving it for a few miles, some track time and doing some backroad racing against friends of mine in modded Audi S4's and other cars it made a believer out of me. I found that I could hang the tail out at 140+ with total control. Very easy to control my line through a turn just by modulating the throttle.
Unfortunately there aren't more of these types of ATs out there. Most of you seem to think that a clutch pedal some how makes the car better. Any more I am not in agreement with that viewpoint. I've driven the SMG BMW's and I can tell you I'll never miss a clutch pedal again with trannies like that and the one in my MB. They can do things that no human can possibly do. ATs have come a long ways.
I still would have probably boughten the 6MT though if it was a RWD or AWD car. I still enjoy it but I also am not oblivious to the fun it can provide though I must say the 5AT TL has been more fun to drive on a daily basis than I thought it would vs. the 6MT. At this point I'd say the FTD (fun to drive) factor is about 95% as good for me but the livability factor on a day to day basis is about 150% by having the 5AT. Obviously to each their own. No matter how you slice it the TL is not a cutting edge sport sedan when it comes to handling dynamics. It's not a slouch either but it doesn't have the razor sharp reflexes of other cars. Because of that I am more than content to pair it with the 5AT. Obviously others of you don't feel the same way. I appreciate that but if it were the ultimate sport sedan I'd be buying the 6MT and keeping it as weekend car instead of a daily commuter. In the commuter role the 5AT is a better fit.
and its still a torque converter auto.... the newer systems by audi, bmw, ferrari all outperform that auto. todays cvts also show even more promise, having no specific gear ratios at all, the ability to put the engine in the power and keep it there....
and i will still agree that in drag racing it hard to beat a well tuned auto combo, as you remove driver error, and the driveline takes less punishment. some of the fastest mustang drag cars i know of use a modified version of fords old c4 trans... these were designed and built back in the 60s!!!!
12-03-2004, 11:39 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
To ONAGER;
I owned a 2000 SVT Contour (production #379 out of 2150 for the year). The engine was only 152 cubic inches (2.5 liters), but produced 200 HP and 169 lb/ft of torque. That's not much torque but Ford still saw fit to use a two-pound lighter flywheel and a clutch with 1400 pounds of clamping pressure. That sucker would last a LONG time.
12-04-2004, 07:14 AM
#43
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To ONAGER;
Mine was black with the midnight blue interior, built on November 19th, 1999.. and I also have the certificate for it. Ford definitely engineered that car.. but with one fatal flaw.. which was a "feature" if you ever called MotorSport and asked. The engine had a terrible throttle hang problem.. so bad that sometimes the R's would run up 1000-1500 over during an upshift. And they would hang there for seconds! The "street" fix was to insert a plug with a 7/32" hole in it in the air bypass rubber tube. This would work for a few days and then the idle would get high, so you'd remove it and the whole process would start over. This was the reason I traded the car on a 2002 Altima SE.
But the rest was pure bliss. Ford worked wonders with the SVT Contour and the SVT parts read like a laundry list from racing. Fractured sintered connecting rods. Roller followers. Bee hive valve springs. Hollow camshafts. Short skirt, low friction pistons. Extrude honed intake manifold. Windage tray. Oil-to-water cooler. Gears and shafts in transmission rode on roller bearings. Lighter flywheel. 1400 pound clutch. Oversized 4-wheel vented disk brakes. And on and on. The thing would do a .90g in the 200 foot skid pad and a magazine tested it at .92g.
Mine was black with the midnight blue interior, built on November 19th, 1999.. and I also have the certificate for it. Ford definitely engineered that car.. but with one fatal flaw.. which was a "feature" if you ever called MotorSport and asked. The engine had a terrible throttle hang problem.. so bad that sometimes the R's would run up 1000-1500 over during an upshift. And they would hang there for seconds! The "street" fix was to insert a plug with a 7/32" hole in it in the air bypass rubber tube. This would work for a few days and then the idle would get high, so you'd remove it and the whole process would start over. This was the reason I traded the car on a 2002 Altima SE.
But the rest was pure bliss. Ford worked wonders with the SVT Contour and the SVT parts read like a laundry list from racing. Fractured sintered connecting rods. Roller followers. Bee hive valve springs. Hollow camshafts. Short skirt, low friction pistons. Extrude honed intake manifold. Windage tray. Oil-to-water cooler. Gears and shafts in transmission rode on roller bearings. Lighter flywheel. 1400 pound clutch. Oversized 4-wheel vented disk brakes. And on and on. The thing would do a .90g in the 200 foot skid pad and a magazine tested it at .92g.
12-04-2004, 07:15 AM
#44
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Oh and one other thing. The steering ratio of the SVT Contour was 2.7 turns lock-to-lock. Our TLs have 2.77.. virtually identical which I love.
12-04-2004, 01:05 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
To ONAGER;
Mine was black with the midnight blue interior, built on November 19th, 1999.. and I also have the certificate for it. Ford definitely engineered that car.. but with one fatal flaw.. which was a "feature" if you ever called MotorSport and asked. The engine had a terrible throttle hang problem.. so bad that sometimes the R's would run up 1000-1500 over during an upshift. And they would hang there for seconds! The "street" fix was to insert a plug with a 7/32" hole in it in the air bypass rubber tube. This would work for a few days and then the idle would get high, so you'd remove it and the whole process would start over. This was the reason I traded the car on a 2002 Altima SE.
But the rest was pure bliss. Ford worked wonders with the SVT Contour and the SVT parts read like a laundry list from racing. Fractured sintered connecting rods. Roller followers. Bee hive valve springs. Hollow camshafts. Short skirt, low friction pistons. Extrude honed intake manifold. Windage tray. Oil-to-water cooler. Gears and shafts in transmission rode on roller bearings. Lighter flywheel. 1400 pound clutch. Oversized 4-wheel vented disk brakes. And on and on. The thing would do a .90g in the 200 foot skid pad and a magazine tested it at .92g.
Mine was black with the midnight blue interior, built on November 19th, 1999.. and I also have the certificate for it. Ford definitely engineered that car.. but with one fatal flaw.. which was a "feature" if you ever called MotorSport and asked. The engine had a terrible throttle hang problem.. so bad that sometimes the R's would run up 1000-1500 over during an upshift. And they would hang there for seconds! The "street" fix was to insert a plug with a 7/32" hole in it in the air bypass rubber tube. This would work for a few days and then the idle would get high, so you'd remove it and the whole process would start over. This was the reason I traded the car on a 2002 Altima SE.
But the rest was pure bliss. Ford worked wonders with the SVT Contour and the SVT parts read like a laundry list from racing. Fractured sintered connecting rods. Roller followers. Bee hive valve springs. Hollow camshafts. Short skirt, low friction pistons. Extrude honed intake manifold. Windage tray. Oil-to-water cooler. Gears and shafts in transmission rode on roller bearings. Lighter flywheel. 1400 pound clutch. Oversized 4-wheel vented disk brakes. And on and on. The thing would do a .90g in the 200 foot skid pad and a magazine tested it at .92g.
my car wasnt as affected by the problem as some others that i have seen... and with my lazy every day shift technics it actually made for a smooth ride (i would shift fairly slow, so with the hang it would be about perfect for the next gear) and when i would speed shift the tranny was good enough that it didnt slow it down, especially with a b&m short shifter... i never personally had an issue with mine... now warping dash boards was another issue
i really miss that car although it only pulled .90g on the skidpad you could toss that car around with reckless abandon... it always seemed to have a little more grip to give. other then a limited slip differential ford did it right the first time dynamically. i was in the process of upgrading it to the taurus 3.0 block when i wrecked it...a few guys i know were getting about 240-250 hp with 210-215 lbs of torque. davidz on contour.org had a 3.0 with special cams that put down right around 290 hp with 225 torque, almost a 50% HP increase over stock NA!!!! thats right around 96.66 HP/L, TL comes in at 84.37 HP/L. TL woul need right around 310 hp to match what he was getting and the contour was still lighter and has shorter overall gearing.... great little car. TL is by far nicer, but there was something bout that tour that stirred my soul.....
12-04-2004, 04:17 PM
#46
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1. Leave the VSA on unless you are prepared to have the car slide around a bit (autocross for example), since it may you out of the ditch otherwise.
2. Todays auto tranny's suck since they are programed by someone in Ohio, Japan, Detroit, etc. that has no concept of your local terrain or how you drive. This was not the case with 1960's cars, hence many muscle cars had automatics designed to performance shift, as opposed to the economy shifting programmed today. Even the BMW automated manual (SMG) has big-brother programing to save wear and tear.
3. Auto tranny's suck lots of power, up to 20% when not locked-up. Again no problem with 1960's cars big block torque/power, but definitely an issue with our cars (half those displacements).
4. I have put over 1/2 million miles on manuals and never changed a clutch. I do not always baby the cars (autocross and track-time). I don't do stupid stuff like holding my car on hills by riding the clutch and the clutch slippage only occurs at 1st gear start (other gears are rev matched, up & down).
5. Most track-time type events do not allow automatics since an unexpected shift mid-corner can put you in the weeds.
6. Enjoy the manuals while we can still get them, since tougher emission regulations will force automakers to program nearly 100% of our driving (which includes shifting).
2. Todays auto tranny's suck since they are programed by someone in Ohio, Japan, Detroit, etc. that has no concept of your local terrain or how you drive. This was not the case with 1960's cars, hence many muscle cars had automatics designed to performance shift, as opposed to the economy shifting programmed today. Even the BMW automated manual (SMG) has big-brother programing to save wear and tear.
3. Auto tranny's suck lots of power, up to 20% when not locked-up. Again no problem with 1960's cars big block torque/power, but definitely an issue with our cars (half those displacements).
4. I have put over 1/2 million miles on manuals and never changed a clutch. I do not always baby the cars (autocross and track-time). I don't do stupid stuff like holding my car on hills by riding the clutch and the clutch slippage only occurs at 1st gear start (other gears are rev matched, up & down).
5. Most track-time type events do not allow automatics since an unexpected shift mid-corner can put you in the weeds.
6. Enjoy the manuals while we can still get them, since tougher emission regulations will force automakers to program nearly 100% of our driving (which includes shifting).
12-04-2004, 07:21 PM
#47
Gearhead
Originally Posted by ONAGER
thats a horse of a different color though....your comparing a super high quality auto with what you have now.... when i was refering to your auto i was specifiacally targeting the tl auto tranny.... and although yes the benz has reworked it, to a fine point, it still sucks more power as the torque converter robs power locked or not.... its not as efficient... i have no seat time behind an amg transmission, plenty of fords, chevys, and hondas, my friends auto mustang would always shift at the most inopertune time (middle of the corner, best way to upset the chassis) so yes by comparing the amg it does significantly close the gap. but thats a transmission in a car thats what? close to twice the price of ours?
and its still a torque converter auto.... the newer systems by audi, bmw, ferrari all outperform that auto. todays cvts also show even more promise, having no specific gear ratios at all, the ability to put the engine in the power and keep it there....
!!!!
and its still a torque converter auto.... the newer systems by audi, bmw, ferrari all outperform that auto. todays cvts also show even more promise, having no specific gear ratios at all, the ability to put the engine in the power and keep it there....
!!!!
<o:p></o:p>
I agree CVT's show a lot of promise but most people won't get to the feeling of having a "stepless" tranny so Audi had to do something to get over what people perceived to be engine "droning". Problem with the CVTs I drove is that while they perform in acceleration quite well they still tend to freewheel and don't immediately slow the car like my AMG auto does when you let off the gas.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I like the SMG's a lot but they aren't that smooth yet in full auto mode. I still like the concept and like it or not we will see fewer manual choices. As often is mentioned emission and mileage considerations will make it harder and harder to certify a manual for EPA approval. Unless the sales numbers or prestige really warrant it the manual as we know in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region> may soon have seen its better days. In many ways I won't lament its passing not at least with options like the AMG auto or SMG manumatic. If nothing else I'll hold on to one good RWD car with a nice 5 or 6 MT just for nostalgia. I hate to admit but in many ways the EPA has helped us have better cars even though that wasn't their intent. Almost all new cars now are fuel injected (I think all are now) and we have both better performance and mileage. Heck our TL's will easily kick the butt of many supposed earlier "muscle cars".
12-05-2004, 12:28 PM
#48
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It would seem that the main point is that to achieve maximum performance, turn VSA off (manual or automatic). Thanks to SouthernBoy for reminding us of this. I often forget about VSA, and when I am in "attack mode" I will think about turning it off.
For many of us, the automatic tranny is a compromise to accomodate other drivers of the TL (i.e. my wife) who cannot drive a manual. I miss shifting for myself sometimes, as that is how I grew up. BUT, as autos go, I love this tranny and only wish there were shift paddles on the wheel as well. To each their own, and even though I own the auto, I appreciate that Acura makes the 6-speed available (and includes a defeat switch for the VSA).
peace
For many of us, the automatic tranny is a compromise to accomodate other drivers of the TL (i.e. my wife) who cannot drive a manual. I miss shifting for myself sometimes, as that is how I grew up. BUT, as autos go, I love this tranny and only wish there were shift paddles on the wheel as well. To each their own, and even though I own the auto, I appreciate that Acura makes the 6-speed available (and includes a defeat switch for the VSA).
peace
12-05-2004, 02:29 PM
#49
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by Bonedoc
It would seem that the main point is that to achieve maximum performance, turn VSA off (manual or automatic). Thanks to SouthernBoy for reminding us of this. I often forget about VSA, and when I am in "attack mode" I will think about turning it off.
For many of us, the automatic tranny is a compromise to accomodate other drivers of the TL (i.e. my wife) who cannot drive a manual. I miss shifting for myself sometimes, as that is how I grew up. BUT, as autos go, I love this tranny and only wish there were shift paddles on the wheel as well. To each their own, and even though I own the auto, I appreciate that Acura makes the 6-speed available (and includes a defeat switch for the VSA).
peace
For many of us, the automatic tranny is a compromise to accomodate other drivers of the TL (i.e. my wife) who cannot drive a manual. I miss shifting for myself sometimes, as that is how I grew up. BUT, as autos go, I love this tranny and only wish there were shift paddles on the wheel as well. To each their own, and even though I own the auto, I appreciate that Acura makes the 6-speed available (and includes a defeat switch for the VSA).
peace
After reading all of the post on how good the MT is, I refused to test drive one. For me, on a daily basis the MT is a PITA because of the type driving that I do. I still love it though. Wife will not learn to drive MT and I also need something else in the house for her to drive so 5AT for me. On those days when I just want to shift gears, I jump in my little 5MT 1993 delsol. This is a car that needs and appreciates a manual transmission, only 125HP. I can have fun with little risk of getting a speding ticket. We do what we gotta do.
Mike
12-05-2004, 11:02 PM
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I haven't noticed any subtle performance differences between VSA on and off. The times it has come on it has been pretty obvious that it was intervening - complete with the dash light and everything. It works well and I leave it on pretty much all the time. It has probably saved my butt, at least lending a big helping hand, a couple times. Clearly, there are times where a little tire spin is a good thing and the car will respond better with VSA off, but I hate to think of someone thinking "VSA off = more performance" and leaving it off all the time.
12-06-2004, 08:47 AM
#51
Originally Posted by Aegir
I haven't noticed any subtle performance differences between VSA on and off. The times it has come on it has been pretty obvious that it was intervening - complete with the dash light and everything. It works well and I leave it on pretty much all the time. It has probably saved my butt, at least lending a big helping hand, a couple times. Clearly, there are times where a little tire spin is a good thing and the car will respond better with VSA off, but I hate to think of someone thinking "VSA off = more performance" and leaving it off all the time.
BTW - I'm sure you all have noticed that if you turn the car off with VSA off, it doesn't stay that way. You have to turn it off manually every time. I turn it off maybe 2-3% of the time. Just when I feel like having some fun or when trying to keep up with my friend's vette
12-08-2004, 12:50 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by wavshrdr
Onager- a lot of what AMG did could be done by Acura simply reprogramming the trannies ECU. The VSA already has yaw sensors and speed sensors to those could be tapped into as well. All they really need to do is interface with the VSA to make it a more smart autos.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I agree CVT's show a lot of promise but most people won't get to the feeling of having a "stepless" tranny so Audi had to do something to get over what people perceived to be engine "droning". Problem with the CVTs I drove is that while they perform in acceleration quite well they still tend to freewheel and don't immediately slow the car like my AMG auto does when you let off the gas.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I like the SMG's a lot but they aren't that smooth yet in full auto mode. I still like the concept and like it or not we will see fewer manual choices. As often is mentioned emission and mileage considerations will make it harder and harder to certify a manual for EPA approval. Unless the sales numbers or prestige really warrant it the manual as we know in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region> may soon have seen its better days. In many ways I won't lament its passing not at least with options like the AMG auto or SMG manumatic. If nothing else I'll hold on to one good RWD car with a nice 5 or 6 MT just for nostalgia. I hate to admit but in many ways the EPA has helped us have better cars even though that wasn't their intent. Almost all new cars now are fuel injected (I think all are now) and we have both better performance and mileage. Heck our TL's will easily kick the butt of many supposed earlier "muscle cars".
<o:p></o:p>
I agree CVT's show a lot of promise but most people won't get to the feeling of having a "stepless" tranny so Audi had to do something to get over what people perceived to be engine "droning". Problem with the CVTs I drove is that while they perform in acceleration quite well they still tend to freewheel and don't immediately slow the car like my AMG auto does when you let off the gas.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I like the SMG's a lot but they aren't that smooth yet in full auto mode. I still like the concept and like it or not we will see fewer manual choices. As often is mentioned emission and mileage considerations will make it harder and harder to certify a manual for EPA approval. Unless the sales numbers or prestige really warrant it the manual as we know in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region> may soon have seen its better days. In many ways I won't lament its passing not at least with options like the AMG auto or SMG manumatic. If nothing else I'll hold on to one good RWD car with a nice 5 or 6 MT just for nostalgia. I hate to admit but in many ways the EPA has helped us have better cars even though that wasn't their intent. Almost all new cars now are fuel injected (I think all are now) and we have both better performance and mileage. Heck our TL's will easily kick the butt of many supposed earlier "muscle cars".
a good example is a manual car. if you gently let out the clutch and the floor it the acceleration is rather lazy. as the tires are hooked up and the clutch isnt slipping. the engine is low in its power band, and is having to power it way forward. Now, if you launch at a higher rpm, and slip the clutch a little (or let the tires slip) the car rockets foward harder.... The reason? the cars engine is up in (or at least closer to) its power band. thats why its quicker to keep the revs up a bit. or in an automatic to have a higher stall speed, and have it not lock earlier.... higher power cars have more flexability.
so yes, its possible for acura to lock the transmission earlier but is it benificial? not only that. to improve shift speed and locking the torque converter earlier wears out the internal components faster. the internal pump which must supply the fluid has to spin faster then designed. many lightning owners have had pump failures due to chips being installed. increased power, quicker shifting, less slippage came at a price
here is a link on precision industries website talking about locking torque converters... it an older article (7-8 years) but it principle still holds true
http://www.converter.com/bk8_one.htm
12-08-2004, 02:40 PM
#53
Gearhead
Onager- I understand all of this but the point is when the TC locks up and it does it at higher RPM, the VTEC motors don't need the help of the TC torque multiplication. Anyway it is the torque multiplication that helps the 5AT run close to the 6MT in acceleration at lower speeds. The drivetrain losses aren't as signficant.
If the TC locked up about 4,500 rpm the TL wouldn't need the help but it WOULD benefit from the improved efficiency in the drivetrain. What you are also missing the benefit the car would have when not accelerating. It would help while braking or even letting off the throttle.
To clarify a point I think you meant to say that higher torque cars have more flexibility than "higher power". People confuse HP and Torque and many think that higher power is usually higher HP but in your example what you are really getting at is higher torque. Torque is the force that provides acceleration.
To put it another way for less gearhead people like Onager, SouthernBoy and myself I'll use the example of 2 cars that are identical except for motor displacement. Car 1 is a TL with a 3.2l motor and it makes 270HP and 240 lb/ft of torque. Car 2 is a TL with a 4.8l motor with 270HP and 360 lb/ft of torque. Theoretically the cars will have almost the same exact top speed however the car with more torque will acclerate more quickly and usually be more flexible. Most people will look at the HP numbers and think they are equal but on a race track car# 2 is going to kick the heck out of the other one.
My point is the TL could have the TC lockup without much issue at higher rpms. It would feel more like a manual and get better performance at higher speeds. Once the VTEC is fully working and the car is up in its powerband you don't need as much slippage to help.
For the record my MB is supercharged. Keep in mind that while the MB has a pretty stout motor most MB's aren't light cars. You can't look just at torque or HP numbers but you have to look really at torque to weight numbers.
If the TC locked up about 4,500 rpm the TL wouldn't need the help but it WOULD benefit from the improved efficiency in the drivetrain. What you are also missing the benefit the car would have when not accelerating. It would help while braking or even letting off the throttle.
To clarify a point I think you meant to say that higher torque cars have more flexibility than "higher power". People confuse HP and Torque and many think that higher power is usually higher HP but in your example what you are really getting at is higher torque. Torque is the force that provides acceleration.
To put it another way for less gearhead people like Onager, SouthernBoy and myself I'll use the example of 2 cars that are identical except for motor displacement. Car 1 is a TL with a 3.2l motor and it makes 270HP and 240 lb/ft of torque. Car 2 is a TL with a 4.8l motor with 270HP and 360 lb/ft of torque. Theoretically the cars will have almost the same exact top speed however the car with more torque will acclerate more quickly and usually be more flexible. Most people will look at the HP numbers and think they are equal but on a race track car# 2 is going to kick the heck out of the other one.
My point is the TL could have the TC lockup without much issue at higher rpms. It would feel more like a manual and get better performance at higher speeds. Once the VTEC is fully working and the car is up in its powerband you don't need as much slippage to help.
For the record my MB is supercharged. Keep in mind that while the MB has a pretty stout motor most MB's aren't light cars. You can't look just at torque or HP numbers but you have to look really at torque to weight numbers.
12-08-2004, 04:16 PM
#54
I shift therefore I am
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Originally Posted by wavshrdr
You can't look just at torque or HP numbers but you have to look really at torque to weight numbers.
12-08-2004, 05:01 PM
#55
professional TL driver
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Originally Posted by wavshrdr
To clarify a point I think you meant to say that higher torque cars have more flexibility than "higher power". People confuse HP and Torque and many think that higher power is usually higher HP but in your example what you are really getting at is higher torque. Torque is the force that provides acceleration.
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12-08-2004, 05:08 PM
#56
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Have we lost sight..........
Car enthusiasts/drivers often lose sight of the fact that their family Truckster is not a performance vehicle. I do it all the time. I hate the early 1-2 shift on my TL but then complain if I get low gas mileage. I cringe when I don't get head banging downshifts when I mash the throttle but feel intruded upon when I even feel an upshift during normal driving. We have to remember how wonderfully Acura has compromised to achieve very respectable performance from a luxury car.
The guy that buys an AMG is buying a performance vehicle. He expects harsher shifting and stiffer suspension. Not only is this car in a different price range it is a whole different category of vehicles.
I enjoy losing myself in unfamiliar territory having gone to strange places looking for a really fast decreasing radius corner and then telling Mabel (my navi. female's voice name) to "go home". She gets me there comfortably with no intrusion on my Fleetwood Mac DVD.
Personally, I relish the compromises Acura has made. I believe they've done a great job. Now if they could only get the damn paint on the bumpers to match the rest of the car............................................
The guy that buys an AMG is buying a performance vehicle. He expects harsher shifting and stiffer suspension. Not only is this car in a different price range it is a whole different category of vehicles.
I enjoy losing myself in unfamiliar territory having gone to strange places looking for a really fast decreasing radius corner and then telling Mabel (my navi. female's voice name) to "go home". She gets me there comfortably with no intrusion on my Fleetwood Mac DVD.
Personally, I relish the compromises Acura has made. I believe they've done a great job. Now if they could only get the damn paint on the bumpers to match the rest of the car............................................
12-08-2004, 08:55 PM
#57
Gearhead
I think Acura did a great job on the TL. One thing MB does better than Acuras is transmissions with respect to automatics. The amazing thing about the tranny in my MB is that it is super smooth while shifting but shifts as quick as you think a car with an old style shift kit might have. AMG has dialed in the tranny electronics amazingly well for MB. Same goes for suspension, good wheel control, decent wheel travel, compliant without being too harsh or soft. For me it's a great street car but would be too soft on the track but that isn't why I bought it.
Honda/Acura has the resources (engineers, technology, experience) to do this IF they see enough consumer demand. I still try and think about what Acura was thinking when they made the FWD. This car could've been the car at the top of it's class in almost every category without saying "It's good for a FWD car".
The VSA does a good job and you can actually defeat it if you want. The 5AT feels as quick in normal driving as the 6MT and in some cases it feels a little quicker. It is much easier to launch the 5AT quickly than the 6MT. Every day I appreciate the car more and more. Still wish for RWD or AWD but it's a nice place to spend time.
Today coming home I got stuck in terrible traffic. If it had been my WRX I'd be cursing people by the time I got home. In the TL I dialed up a good DVD-A, opened up the sunroof (gotta do it before we have more snow) and put the car in normal drive mode and just relaxed. I didn't mind so much going 10' and then stopping for about 300+ times. Go through the congestion, ran the motor up through the gears and life was grand. The 5AT has a dual personality that the 6MT doesn't and I enjoy it more each day.
Honda/Acura has the resources (engineers, technology, experience) to do this IF they see enough consumer demand. I still try and think about what Acura was thinking when they made the FWD. This car could've been the car at the top of it's class in almost every category without saying "It's good for a FWD car".
The VSA does a good job and you can actually defeat it if you want. The 5AT feels as quick in normal driving as the 6MT and in some cases it feels a little quicker. It is much easier to launch the 5AT quickly than the 6MT. Every day I appreciate the car more and more. Still wish for RWD or AWD but it's a nice place to spend time.
Today coming home I got stuck in terrible traffic. If it had been my WRX I'd be cursing people by the time I got home. In the TL I dialed up a good DVD-A, opened up the sunroof (gotta do it before we have more snow) and put the car in normal drive mode and just relaxed. I didn't mind so much going 10' and then stopping for about 300+ times. Go through the congestion, ran the motor up through the gears and life was grand. The 5AT has a dual personality that the 6MT doesn't and I enjoy it more each day.
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