vs. Crotch Rocket
09-16-2010, 05:31 AM
#41
AZ Community Team
, what a awful launch for the GSX-RI know little about the GN so I googled around and found this
http://www.turbobuick.com/jason_cramer_car.html
Owner gave a good description on how fast his 87 was and modifications he's done to it.
Here's another. Stock block street legal TSM car in the 9s running low 140s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkzRJnMGY20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyjeepWQIRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkzRJnMGY20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyjeepWQIRY
Last edited by Legend2TL; 09-16-2010 at 05:33 AM.
09-16-2010, 01:28 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
I can believe a 0.3 to 0.4 difference but not a 0.9, that's alot of time in a 1/4. The first video didn't sound like he speed shifted, but at the same time how do we know it's a stock car?
Ever so often R&T do a write-up on how they test cars and the instrumentation and setup. Pretty informative but more importantly they try to be consistent (track, weather, drivers,...). They also do testing again on their long term vehicles. If I recall they do not speed shift but will do drop clutch launches if that works best for acceleration. The fact that Edmudns and R&T get fairly close just iterates they must be consistent in their testing.
For a MT it's more driver skill for getting the best run, I have a hard time believing the auto media are that much slower on a 1/4.
Ever so often R&T do a write-up on how they test cars and the instrumentation and setup. Pretty informative but more importantly they try to be consistent (track, weather, drivers,...). They also do testing again on their long term vehicles. If I recall they do not speed shift but will do drop clutch launches if that works best for acceleration. The fact that Edmudns and R&T get fairly close just iterates they must be consistent in their testing.
For a MT it's more driver skill for getting the best run, I have a hard time believing the auto media are that much slower on a 1/4.
The mags test their cars with a full tank of fuel, 20lbs of test gear, the times are an average of at least 3 runs (usually 10), and the times are corrected for sea level conditions. Private owners often best mag times because:
1) Conditions are stellar and the times are corrected. I'd bet the air conditions during that ZR1's run were negative, therefore, allowing the car to produce more than 100% it's normal power at sea level.
2) Many owners are willing to abuse the cars more. They often show up to the track low on fuel which pulls out 80lbs+ out of a car.
3) Track prep. Better prep = better stick = higher launch rpm = lower 60' and less spinning on shifts = lower et
4) Many times the mags don't drive autos the right way. Motor Trend and R/T noted that let their G35s shift themselves on the runs. With my G in auto mode, it does 14.6-14.7. In manumatic, it does 14.3-14.4.
09-16-2010, 01:38 PM
#44
Team Owner
Regardless of how you feel about it, these are bonestock, low mileage ZR1s going 10s. Any car capable of 130mph in the 1/4 mile is more than capable of deep 10s with traction.
The mags test their cars with a full tank of fuel, 20lbs of test gear, the times are an average of at least 3 runs (usually 10), and the times are corrected for sea level conditions. Private owners often best mag times because:
1) Conditions are stellar and the times are corrected. I'd bet the air conditions during that ZR1's run were negative, therefore, allowing the car to produce more than 100% it's normal power at sea level.
2) Many owners are willing to abuse the cars more. They often show up to the track low on fuel which pulls out 80lbs+ out of a car.
3) Track prep. Better prep = better stick = higher launch rpm = lower 60' and less spinning on shifts = lower et
4) Many times the mags don't drive autos the right way. Motor Trend and R/T noted that let their G35s shift themselves on the runs. With my G in auto mode, it does 14.6-14.7. In manumatic, it does 14.3-14.4.
The mags test their cars with a full tank of fuel, 20lbs of test gear, the times are an average of at least 3 runs (usually 10), and the times are corrected for sea level conditions. Private owners often best mag times because:
1) Conditions are stellar and the times are corrected. I'd bet the air conditions during that ZR1's run were negative, therefore, allowing the car to produce more than 100% it's normal power at sea level.
2) Many owners are willing to abuse the cars more. They often show up to the track low on fuel which pulls out 80lbs+ out of a car.
3) Track prep. Better prep = better stick = higher launch rpm = lower 60' and less spinning on shifts = lower et
4) Many times the mags don't drive autos the right way. Motor Trend and R/T noted that let their G35s shift themselves on the runs. With my G in auto mode, it does 14.6-14.7. In manumatic, it does 14.3-14.4.
It's known with just about any car you can knock off .3-.8 seconds. The quicker the car the more you can usually knock off.
The ZR1 is a deep 10 second car in the hands of a capable driver.
Turbo cars are really screwed. One of the mags tested a GN at 14.8 when most people ran 13.5-13.8 in them. Mashing the pedal to the floor results in lag and then spin.
As you said, no manual shifting of the auto either.
09-16-2010, 01:48 PM
#45
Team Owner
, what a awful launch for the GSX-RI know little about the GN so I googled around and found this
http://www.turbobuick.com/jason_cramer_car.html
Owner gave a good description on how fast his 87 was and modifications he's done to it.
As for the launch, that's what every bike person says every single time a car beats a bike. I'm not trying to be a jerk because I know you're just making an observation so don't take it the wrong way. The rider might have just played it conservative instead of taking a risk and having to back out. If you noticed, the GN launched with no boost so it was conservative too.
09-16-2010, 07:57 PM
#46
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
As mentioned, I have tons of experience with fast bikes, and I can easily see a new ZR-1 beating any stock 600 cc sportbike on the street, any speed, dig or roll, 9/10 times with an average street rider on the bike. Everyone is always dissapointed when they take their bike to the track and wonder why they're running .5 second slower than Sport Rider ran the same bike.
Put Ricky Gadson on the 600 and the ZR-1 will have some serious problems.
Put Ricky Gadson on the 600 and the ZR-1 will have some serious problems.
09-16-2010, 08:42 PM
#47
Pro
+1
as mentioned, i have tons of experience with fast bikes, and i can easily see a new zr-1 beating any stock 600 cc sportbike on the street, any speed, dig or roll, 9/10 times with an average street rider on the bike. Everyone is always dissapointed when they take their bike to the track and wonder why they're running .5 second slower than sport rider ran the same bike.
Put ricky gadson on the 600 and the zr-1 will have some serious problems.
Put ricky gadson on the 600 and the zr-1 will have some serious problems.
09-16-2010, 09:27 PM
#48
AZ Community Team
http://www.streetfire.net/video/worl...132_635846.htm
This was a modified Hennessey ZR-1 doing a 10.9 on street tires. So yeah I do believe a modified ZR-1 will do a high 10 second but a stock ZR-1 I can't believe the media are doing that bad a launch on that bad a track consistently.
Car and Driver was about the same as R&T
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...tte_zr1_page_2
Motor Trend get it down to 11.2
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html
On your 1-4 points below I definitely agree with 2) but 1) is not always the case. Most magazine note and some correct for temp/altitude/pressure. The test instrumentation most use is maybe 5lb's these days. Some use full tanks, some half tanks. Air density is not as critical for a FI motor as compared to NA so it has a impact but not as much. Dennis Simanatis at R&T writes up how they test every so often, he goes into great detail on the how they test. I do not believe they average anywhere near 10 runs, I thought it was 2 but I could be wrong.
This was a modified Hennessey ZR-1 doing a 10.9 on street tires. So yeah I do believe a modified ZR-1 will do a high 10 second but a stock ZR-1 I can't believe the media are doing that bad a launch on that bad a track consistently.
Car and Driver was about the same as R&T
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...tte_zr1_page_2
Motor Trend get it down to 11.2
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html
On your 1-4 points below I definitely agree with 2) but 1) is not always the case. Most magazine note and some correct for temp/altitude/pressure. The test instrumentation most use is maybe 5lb's these days. Some use full tanks, some half tanks. Air density is not as critical for a FI motor as compared to NA so it has a impact but not as much. Dennis Simanatis at R&T writes up how they test every so often, he goes into great detail on the how they test. I do not believe they average anywhere near 10 runs, I thought it was 2 but I could be wrong.
Regardless of how you feel about it, these are bonestock, low mileage ZR1s going 10s. Any car capable of 130mph in the 1/4 mile is more than capable of deep 10s with traction.
The mags test their cars with a full tank of fuel, 20lbs of test gear, the times are an average of at least 3 runs (usually 10), and the times are corrected for sea level conditions. Private owners often best mag times because:
1) Conditions are stellar and the times are corrected. I'd bet the air conditions during that ZR1's run were negative, therefore, allowing the car to produce more than 100% it's normal power at sea level.
2) Many owners are willing to abuse the cars more. They often show up to the track low on fuel which pulls out 80lbs+ out of a car.
3) Track prep. Better prep = better stick = higher launch rpm = lower 60' and less spinning on shifts = lower et
4) Many times the mags don't drive autos the right way. Motor Trend and R/T noted that let their G35s shift themselves on the runs. With my G in auto mode, it does 14.6-14.7. In manumatic, it does 14.3-14.4.
The mags test their cars with a full tank of fuel, 20lbs of test gear, the times are an average of at least 3 runs (usually 10), and the times are corrected for sea level conditions. Private owners often best mag times because:
1) Conditions are stellar and the times are corrected. I'd bet the air conditions during that ZR1's run were negative, therefore, allowing the car to produce more than 100% it's normal power at sea level.
2) Many owners are willing to abuse the cars more. They often show up to the track low on fuel which pulls out 80lbs+ out of a car.
3) Track prep. Better prep = better stick = higher launch rpm = lower 60' and less spinning on shifts = lower et
4) Many times the mags don't drive autos the right way. Motor Trend and R/T noted that let their G35s shift themselves on the runs. With my G in auto mode, it does 14.6-14.7. In manumatic, it does 14.3-14.4.
09-16-2010, 10:05 PM
#49
Team Owner
The main point is the typical above average driver can beat the magazines by a fairly large margin. This has been going on for many years and well known. From what I've seen at the track most bike riders can't match magazine times. The simple matter is cars in the ZR1's league will regularly beat bikes that are rated quicker.
I still remember my first time at the track when I was 17 in my GN. I ran a 16.4 but I smoked the tires launching like I did on the street. It took 3 runs to hit the 14s and literally 12 runs to hit a 13.9. Eventually it went 13.7. If it had not been a track rental and I got the normal 2-3 runs I would have gone home with a high 14/low 15 second car instead of a 13 second car. My high 14 second runs were fine, nothing terrible that stood out but I shaved a full second off of an ok run with a great run.
Even when it ran 11s I beat some "10 second" bikes. I have no solid explanation but it happened plenty times.
You're right in saying FI is less affected by altitude. However, a positive displacement supercharger will lose boost at altitude depending on how it's setup vs a turbo that will run the same boost regardless. I don't know how the Vette is setup but unless it's using the bypass and ECU to control boost at full throttle which is highly unlikely, it's going to lose some boost and power at altitude.
I still remember my first time at the track when I was 17 in my GN. I ran a 16.4 but I smoked the tires launching like I did on the street. It took 3 runs to hit the 14s and literally 12 runs to hit a 13.9. Eventually it went 13.7. If it had not been a track rental and I got the normal 2-3 runs I would have gone home with a high 14/low 15 second car instead of a 13 second car. My high 14 second runs were fine, nothing terrible that stood out but I shaved a full second off of an ok run with a great run.
Even when it ran 11s I beat some "10 second" bikes. I have no solid explanation but it happened plenty times.
You're right in saying FI is less affected by altitude. However, a positive displacement supercharger will lose boost at altitude depending on how it's setup vs a turbo that will run the same boost regardless. I don't know how the Vette is setup but unless it's using the bypass and ECU to control boost at full throttle which is highly unlikely, it's going to lose some boost and power at altitude.
09-17-2010, 06:25 AM
#50
AZ Community Team
My main point is I don't believe a 0.9 second gap for a stock ZR1. When I see a Hennessey ZR1 running 14psi (vs 10 PSI) boost larger intercooler, new pipes, and remapped ECU doing 10.90 @ 136 on street tires that makes perfect sense. The run looked pretty clean with some chirping after the 1-2 shift.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/worl...132_635846.htm
I agree a majority of sport bike riders can't match magazine times for standing start, but I imagine a few can. FWIW SportRider and MotorcycleUSA do not speed-shift for their acceleration. In his 50's but Jay Gleason (1/4 street bike SME) still has the touch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dicLScVIsbc
http://www.streetfire.net/video/worl...132_635846.htm
I agree a majority of sport bike riders can't match magazine times for standing start, but I imagine a few can. FWIW SportRider and MotorcycleUSA do not speed-shift for their acceleration. In his 50's but Jay Gleason (1/4 street bike SME) still has the touch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dicLScVIsbc
09-17-2010, 01:36 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
http://www.streetfire.net/video/worl...132_635846.htm
This was a modified Hennessey ZR-1 doing a 10.9 on street tires. So yeah I do believe a modified ZR-1 will do a high 10 second but a stock ZR-1 I can't believe the media are doing that bad a launch on that bad a track consistently.
Car and Driver was about the same as R&T
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...tte_zr1_page_2
Motor Trend get it down to 11.2
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html
This was a modified Hennessey ZR-1 doing a 10.9 on street tires. So yeah I do believe a modified ZR-1 will do a high 10 second but a stock ZR-1 I can't believe the media are doing that bad a launch on that bad a track consistently.
Car and Driver was about the same as R&T
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...tte_zr1_page_2
Motor Trend get it down to 11.2
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html
09-17-2010, 01:42 PM
#52
Team Owner
You've basically proved our points that there can be a big swings in elapsed time between mags and drivers. R/T can only muster a weak 11.7 for the ZR1, yet M/T gets an 11.2@131mph out of ZR1. It's entirely plausible that a good driver, on a good strip, in good conditions can pull an uncorrected 10.8-10.9@130mph+. Motor Trend has gotten 11.5s@127mph out the 505hp Z06.
09-17-2010, 02:06 PM
#53
AZ Community Team
You've basically proved our points that there can be a big swings in elapsed time between mags and drivers. R/T can only muster a weak 11.7 for the ZR1, yet M/T gets an 11.2@131mph out of ZR1. It's entirely plausible that a good driver, on a good strip, in good conditions can pull an uncorrected 10.8-10.9@130mph+. Motor Trend has gotten 11.5s@127mph out the 505hp Z06.
09-17-2010, 02:08 PM
#54
AZ O.G NoOldManVetteOwner
Thread Starter
People have ran 10s in stock Z06's. Look for videos of "Ranger." He's a guru on the Vette forums.
The ZR1, I can imagine, must be real hard to launch. Mine is hard enough, I cant imagine the ZR1.
Vette's take skill/time to learn/master.
The ZR1, I can imagine, must be real hard to launch. Mine is hard enough, I cant imagine the ZR1.
Vette's take skill/time to learn/master.
09-17-2010, 03:17 PM
#56
All motor
BONE stock Z06s, even down to the tires. There is a vid of a guy doing 10.8 I believe @ 127.xx.
09-17-2010, 03:51 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
.....and this is why the Z06 is a better performance bargin, IMO. I wasn't going to bring up stock Z06s running 10s if he wasn't believing ZR1 could do it. It's really not a whole lot slower than the ZR1 until the speeds exceed 120mph. You can pick up excellent condition used 07 Z06s for $45K now. That car is one set of seats away from near perfection.
09-17-2010, 04:47 PM
#59
AZ O.G NoOldManVetteOwner
Thread Starter
It's all about the driver.....esp. with a Vette.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woOqq...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woOqq...eature=related
09-17-2010, 07:04 PM
#60
Team Owner
Truly amazing. 
That car is a set of DRs away from Bugatti Veyron 1/4 times.
I'm sure it's been done (I haven't seen it yet) but a pulley, exhaust and intake should turn some great times.
That car is a set of DRs away from Bugatti Veyron 1/4 times.
I'm sure it's been done (I haven't seen it yet) but a pulley, exhaust and intake should turn some great times.
09-17-2010, 07:18 PM
#61
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5DtBsbSaYc#t=7m55s
This website apparently does not let me link to a specific part in a video, so start at 7:55.
09-17-2010, 07:28 PM
#62
Team Owner
I love the "pop bang" method of spooling the turbo at 6:12. Hard as hell on the turbo but very effective on a manual trans.
I have to say a 10 second street car is extremely rare. Much more rare than the internet would make it out to be. I think I've run into 2 randomly at the streetlights. 3 counting the ZR1 I ran and that's over more than 10 years...... But a street car trapping near 160mph, that's absolutely insane. I'm very impressed.
I have to say a 10 second street car is extremely rare. Much more rare than the internet would make it out to be. I think I've run into 2 randomly at the streetlights. 3 counting the ZR1 I ran and that's over more than 10 years...... But a street car trapping near 160mph, that's absolutely insane. I'm very impressed.
09-17-2010, 08:36 PM
#63
I love the "pop bang" method of spooling the turbo at 6:12. Hard as hell on the turbo but very effective on a manual trans.
I have to say a 10 second street car is extremely rare. Much more rare than the internet would make it out to be. I think I've run into 2 randomly at the streetlights. 3 counting the ZR1 I ran and that's over more than 10 years...... But a street car trapping near 160mph, that's absolutely insane. I'm very impressed.
I have to say a 10 second street car is extremely rare. Much more rare than the internet would make it out to be. I think I've run into 2 randomly at the streetlights. 3 counting the ZR1 I ran and that's over more than 10 years...... But a street car trapping near 160mph, that's absolutely insane. I'm very impressed.
09-17-2010, 11:37 PM
#64
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5DtBsbSaYc#t=7m55s
This website apparently does not let me link to a specific part in a video, so start at 7:55.
09-17-2010, 11:52 PM
#65
Team Owner
I'm undecided on what to do to my car now that the ZR1 is out and runs so well. I've beat one already but I don't know what would happen if I ran into a modded one with more boost and on tire.. My goal was to have a car that no factory car could touch in a straight line and the ZR1 comes awefully close. I would love to get to the track and find out what my car runs just to know if I need to make changes but I don't have the time or money anymore and besides I'm not prepared to make the necessary changes to legally run in the 9s. It's not happening.....ever.
09-18-2010, 01:17 AM
#66
Safety Car
This figures into my choice for wanting an Evo too in that other thread. Everyone talks about 11 seconds and 10 seconds cars. Where is that competition on weekdays
The sad fact, at least in my world, is that the competition in the DD category is not that much. Even with my mid 13 second TL Diet, I beat nearly everything in my daily commutes. In the past 5 years, I have only been beat by one Corvette and one newer Ford Shelby GT500. And you know that I try to race anything that I can line-up against.
I don’t take my TL out on weekend nights
I compete only in the DD Class
09-18-2010, 05:07 AM
#67
AZ Community Team
Good point, I'm asuming they are in some other time-space continuum where bike riders are 0.5 second slower and vette owners are 1 second faster. As for me I'm leaving to head down to the shore for DelMarVa bike week to catch up with some old friends. Later
09-18-2010, 10:36 AM
#68
Burning Brakes
Amen. Now, think about daily commutes. Nil. Fast cars come out to play on Friday night and Saturday night. But on weekday commutes…..Nil
This figures into my choice for wanting an Evo too in that other thread. Everyone talks about 11 seconds and 10 seconds cars. Where is that competition on weekdays
The sad fact, at least in my world, is that the competition in the DD category is not that much. Even with my mid 13 second TL Diet, I beat nearly everything in my daily commutes. In the past 5 years, I have only been beat by one Corvette and one newer Ford Shelby GT500. And you know that I try to race anything that I can line-up against.
I don’t take my TL out on weekend nights
I compete only in the DD Class
This figures into my choice for wanting an Evo too in that other thread. Everyone talks about 11 seconds and 10 seconds cars. Where is that competition on weekdays
The sad fact, at least in my world, is that the competition in the DD category is not that much. Even with my mid 13 second TL Diet, I beat nearly everything in my daily commutes. In the past 5 years, I have only been beat by one Corvette and one newer Ford Shelby GT500. And you know that I try to race anything that I can line-up against.
I don’t take my TL out on weekend nights
I compete only in the DD Class
A lot of Texas street racers now take it to the strip because the many TX jurisdications will take your car for street racing. You find all sorts of good races if you'd actually take your "12-second" TL to the strip.
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