2004MT6TL

Regarding the price difference between the price of a 2.5T and a T5, it is not $3500, it's more like $2000. Which is what this post was orginally about, me not wanting to pay $3500, that was not fair, I was willing to comprimise, so we've reached $2000 as a comprimise. Please don't feel sorry for the poor dealer though, it's not like they did not make over $3000 on the deal, not to mention the money they will make by selling my trade for like $32k (after they purchased if off me for $25k. Give me a break.

J0KER

Good to hear!
It sounds like it will work out for both of you, and you can now get back to loving your TL

fla-tls

Cool - sounds like everybody will be happy in the end.

Stewie

I just read this thread from the beginning and like everyone else I thought awww, too bad for the dealer.

Then I read the re-badging thing and my view changed 180 degrees.

Then I started to think about it some more and I really think this is in a gray area.

1) Yes I can see how a judge might intrepret the re-badging as "modification" (which you signed that you didn't do) or as misleading to the dealer be it unintentional or otherwise.

2) The dealer should have been smart enough to run the VIN. As I understand it, if you run the VIN through the computer it will tell you EVERYTHING about the car and there would be no misinterpretation of what the car really is. If this was a private party I could understand how they might have been misled but it would take 10 seconds for the dealer to run the VIN and know exactly what they were getting.

3) What did the paperwork say??? Let's say you're trading in a plain ol' Suburu Impreza that has a WRX badge on it. If the paperwork you signed says "Impreza RS" or whatever it really and not "WRX" then it seems to me that you're off the hook. If the paperwork you signed doesn't say T5 anywhere then you didn't mislead them IMO.

4) If you're uncomfortable with the situation and the dealer will take the car back and return yours without any cost to you then take it and learn your lesson.

5) Myabe this was an honest mistake and maybe it wasn't, but this is also a common scam. On lower end cars where customers don't always have stellar credit they call you back a few days later and tell you that your credit wasn't approved and you owe them the money or need to refinance at an obscene rate. You say you'll give the car back but they say they already sold your trade in. You say tough luck you ain't payin' and they say you signed a document that stated the deal was contigent upon your credit approval. Legally they're right but what dealership (or decent businessperson) would let a brand new $25k car go out the door without any secured credit? Its a scam to extract more money out of you so you're best off getting your own loan.

6) If all else fails I would let them take me to small claims court before I paid up. The worst it could cost you is a day off from work. And in all likelihood the judge would probably find you both partly negeligent and have you split the difference thus saving you $1500.

gstais

2004MT6TL,

I concur with the majority of the respondents in this thread. Bottom line, it is their "screw up", and you have done nothing wrong. It doesn't matter that you debadged your Volvo - they should have checked the VIN. The key facts are:

- You negotiated the a deal
- The dealer accepted
- Both parties signed the contract
- Legal title was transfered for the old and new vehicles
- End of story!

Think of it another way - the dealer no longer has a legal title or claim to your new Acura, since the ownership has been transferred to you. Same with your trade. No doubt you had to sign over the title for the Volvo to the Dealer. It is their car now, and you no longer have any legal liability for THEIR Volvo.

In short, I would tell them in no uncertain terms to back off. If they persist, then beat them at their own game, and tell them you need to consult your attorney. Don't agree to any deadlines, and DON'T RETURN YOUR CAR!

If they are truly a$$holes, they will continue to tell you they will take you to court. So call their bluff, because they have no case.

I would also contact a local TV or radio consumer advocate (one of the other posters suggested this) and proceed to make them wish they had just accepted their mistake and moved on.

They are wrong - you are right and did nothing illegal. Unfortunately, some dealers can be lower than "pond scum", and should not even be in business.

Just my 2-cents.

Good Luck,

Tristero

My first instinct was to flame!!! :tflamer:
But, then I reread the more recent posts. It turns out that the original poster did not DEBADGE but REBADGED. That changes things, surely, but not as much as you suggest.
His intent mattered. Did the original poster intend to mislead; judging from the recent posts, he rebadged the car before he intended to sell it.

That he did not mention the change during the exchange is less than completely truthful and certainly breaches the boundaries of the ethical.

However, that does not justify the dealership's behavior. They have a vested interest in checking the car out (i.e. with the VIN # and CarFAX) as well as the resources to do so. The fact that they failed to catch the discrepancy does not suddenly make them paragons of virtue, however. They have every right to try and collect the difference and to seek redress. Their heavy-handed behavior seems less than savory, but viewed in light of the whole situation, they did not behave unethically.

Your counter example is not an especially good one. But thank you for correcting the mistatement in my post. :bowdown:

TLover

I'll ask this question again: 2004mt6tl: You should have signed a "Notice of Release of Liability" form. This form clearly indicates what year, make, model, and VIN your trade-in is. Your sales agreement also has this info. This there anything stated on these forms that is inaccurate?

scheißterhöffer_RENAMED

I don't know, I don't really think rebadging a car is truly modifying it. I tinted my windows. Is that a mod? I bought floormats that didn't come from the factory. Is that a mod? Granted, rebadging it to indicate a higher model in the line suggests it is something it is not, while tint and floormats do not, but still, this is a dealer, and I'm pretty sure dealers misrepresent cars all the time to unknowing people and think nothing of it, and when the person finds out after the fact, do you think the dealer "makes it right"?

A dealership that is buying your car should be having the car closely examined by a car "expert" before offering you something for it. If I go to a doctor and tell him I think I have cancer, is he going to treat me for cancer? Not without running some tests and using his expert knowledge to confirm it. That's what I think is going on here. The dealership had an obligation to verify some basic information about the car and failed to do so. They realized their mistake and are trying to scare you into cleaning up their mess. Had you filled out the form saying it was a T5 I might feel differently, but to me, it comes down to the fact that I don't think rebadging a car is a mod. For example, I see people driving Civics from time to time that are not an Si, but rather an Ex or something, but they have rebadged them with an Si badge. I don't think that's a mod. I do think it's some sort of insecure vanity thing, but I still think it's the dealership's responsibility to verify these things.

I think I am an ethical person, and I really don't think you did anything wrong here. But again, it's because if I was in your position and was presented with that form, I wouldn't think that rebadging is a mod, simply because I would only assume that one of the most basic elements of offering for a trade is examining these things, engine type, mileage, transmission, driven wheels, etc, and they would know it is not a T5 and offer you accordingly. Now, if in the course of the conversation, the dealer referred to your car as a T5 and you didn't correct him, that'd be something different.

Guess you're in a tough spot here. $2-3K certainly isn't going to bankrupt the dealer, but the potential downside for you isn't appealing either. Good luck.

Twenties

First, i would not return your car b/c it'll make this an even bigger hassle, finding another one, selling your used car, new break-in period, new financing, re-transfering title of your volvo back into your name, repaying volvo for any payments due in this intermediate period of "dual ownership", AND seriously, wondering what/if the Acura dealer your car in any way.

Therefore, i'd suggest that you either negotiate with them and offer them $1000 to settle this (or up to $1500), which they'll probably take, or tell them you want to stand by the contract.

Here's my analysis (not legal advice! please consult your own attorney)

Here's the deal, the contract's express terms control any agreement between you and the dealer with respect to your trade in. If the contract does not expressly state whether the car was a T5 or 2.5 or whatever model, then you did not expressly agree that you were giving them any particular model. Therefore, you win on this point! :cop:

In general, the contract's ambiguities will be enforced against the drafter, here meaning the car dealer, because they were in the position to include whatever terms they believed were material, and here it appears the failed to do so (assuming you are absolutely sure the model is not written anywhere on the contract). Therefore you win on this point! :cop:

However, the exception to the rule is for cases of fraud or misrepresentation.

Generally, this requires that you (1) intentionally made a false or misleading statement intending to induce the other party to rely upon that statement to their detriment and in fact they did, or (2) you negligently made a false statement which you had reason to know the other party relied upon and you had a duty to disclose this fact.

Here, you claim that you did not make any statement about the model of your car. You may win on this point! :cop:

You, as a consumer trading in your car did not have a duty to disclose anything the dealer, and he takes the car "as-in" you are not warranting anything about that car, the only exception i believe is the odometer statement you signed guaranteeing you did not tamper with this. You win on this point! :cop:

Plus, as everyone else stated, it is the dealer's responsibility to make a full investigation to verify the accuracy that the car was what it says it was and in the condition he expected it to be. He could have ran the VIN or called the bank or confirmed with you in writing as to exact model it was. Therefore you win on this point! :cop:

Therefore, it does not appear that you'll lose if this case goes to trial. :p

But, since you did change the label, even though it was not intentionally done to deceive the dealer but instead done to improve the appearance of the vehicle, in equity, in fairness, it seems that you have cheated the dealer--- how ironic is it to hear that. And, the court may find so.

Personally, i'd either offer him $1000 or asked you're attorney how much he'd charge to defend you in this case if they actually did go to court.

Chances are they'll spend at least that much just having an attorney file the initial papers, and they'll risk losing in court, basically, the dealer is not in a good position and probably will not really sue you and is bluffing, even in light of your "rebadging" rather than "debadging"....

Twenties

browndognj

This is now sport. So for the "sport" of it and we are team, is there a lawyer on this post close enough to our "brother" that will do this "pro bono". We're all in "this" together, we need one of our own to help out here. We intimidate them, they don't intimidate us. That's why we've all banded together, to help one another.

¿GotJazz?

Comments removed by ¿GotJazz?

¿GotJazz?

I just read more of the thread, and found out about the re-badging.

Give them the $2000 that they deserve.

eaRL

TLGator is right. This doesn't sound right. Dealerships use variations on this theme all of the time.

You think if you called them and said, "Hey, I got back home from your dealership tonight and I sat down to read the paper. I saw this advertisement for the exact car that I purchased from you at another Acura dealership here in town for $3000 less. If you could just leave that with the receptionist I'll be in tomorrow to pick it up, okay?", that they would actually do it? Hell no!

They gave you too much for your car, they are going to have to eat the difference just like you would if you payed too much for their car. Why should you have to pay the entire $3000? Offer them a percentage of the difference; start at twenty cents on the dollar. That's $600. Sounds like a good place to start. You should be able to come to some kind of agreement well before you get to $3000. They recover some of the money from their screw up. Whoever made this mistake might get to keep their job. Everybody is happy.

BTW, you are innocent in this. You are the customer and you should not be made to feel guilty for their mistake.

mobilezen

One thing about keeping the car though. If you take it in for service, the person that sold your car (granted this probably wouldn't happen but if), could tell the service person to screw up your ride. Just a thought. It could be their way of saying "you messed with the wrong guys" and in this case, get a second opinion from a mechanic and proceed with a lawsuit

gabedabomb

BTW, 2004MT6TL, how did your lawyer get $30,900 out the door? You must mean before taxes and license correct? because MSRP on a non-nav is $30,300. And at Santa Monica? I didn't know they sold cars that cheap. And, is it a stick or auto? maybe I ought to go down there myself (salesperson name? hehe)

Mike H.

IMO Santa Monica is a great dealership (to buy). My GF got her '02 when it first came out for $500 over invoice, no questions asked. But you're right, I'm thinking $30900 before taxes and stuff. Unless he got the car under invoice.

And to 20004MT6TL - Why did you rebadge the car to a T5? I don't get it.

RhodeRunner

The dealer is an Acura expert, not a Volvo expert.

campIIIMAF

go to the dealer . . . pay the 2g and end it. Then lets move on to something else to talk about, like what color car did you buy, any mod changes, things like that.
They're service dept is not going to mess with your car. This thread is like running a survey . . . statistically unsound. Go with your own gut instinct. If you have a conscience, which I think you do, then I'm sure you'll make the correct decision.

berlinrl

2004MT6TL, what exactly was your intent ??

Why did you get a quote on the car from the VW dealership 'before you re-badged'
then decided to re-badge when you actually went to trade ?

RhodeRunner

I can't, for the life of me, understand why people rebadge their cars.

gstais

Yes, they are "Acura Experts", but it is typically the Used Car (or should I say Pre-Owned) Manager that will appraise the vehicle and make an offer for the trade. It is their business and responsibility to ensure that the estimate is fair and equitable based on the year, make, model, and condition of the vehicle, regardless of the make.

Bottom line - the Acura dealer screwed up here. They didn't follow the proper procedures (they could have checked the VIN or if they were unsure, they could have contacted a Volvo Dealer). They should accept the fact that it was their error and eat the difference, and stop trying to cover themselves by screwing over the customer. Their threat of what amounts to a frivolous and baseless legal claim are laughable. If it were me, I would tell them to back off, or they will hear from my attorney, and they would have absolutely no recourse.

Regards,

2004MT6TL

Regarding the Santa Monica deal, he said that he went to carsdirect.com and their price for a 5AT, non-navi was 30,900 out the door. I assume that he means before taxes and license.

Regarding the re-badging from 2.5T to T5, The 2.5T is a new engine for the front wheel drive Volvo's for 2004 (replacing the 2.4T). Someone told me that the T5 was discontiued (later found out this was not the case :smackhead). So I rebadged it to look cleaner, and removed the "2." and moved the "T" to the left. I'll let you all know how this turns out. Thank you for your responses in this situition. :smokin:

2004MT6TL

It's Resolved! :grenade: I going to give them back the car, collect my down payment and drive away in my Volvo. The dealer did not want to move from $2000 that they wanted me to pay. I was offering $1500, more than fair. I figure that this will work out better considering that I only got a $500 off MSRP when I purchased it. So, oh well, I'll but the "2." back on the Volvo and go to Santa Monica or 101 West. Thank all of you for your help.

TLover

That's surprising considering they can no longer sell the car as new. Good luck.

Lore

I'm glad to hear it's been resolved, but I disagree strongly with your choice.

Did you even consider the complications with a decision like that? You'll have to transfer two registrations and titles, not to mention you have no idea what they did with your old car while you were gone.

campIIIMAF

I can see it now, goin to the dealer . . . finding out your car was crushed, and diving home in a family truckster :toothless (off to Wally world).

Are you getting another TL? just curious. Make sure you clean that baby up before turning it in . . . cause they're going to go over it with a fine tooth comb.

good luck

jrudd

Yes they can. The title was never processed.

TLover

Maybe, but after 2,000 miles they'd be hard-pressed to sell it to someone as new.

tonyg24

they are responsible for everything...basically they should of read the info before signing...they are trying to make u pay for thier mess up...sorry acura try again...unless u told them it is something it wasnt but they are dumb to not recheck by vin..and i doubt they would take u to court...talk to a lawyer if the 3k is what u want..

Twenties

see below

2004MT6TL

The plot thickens... So the finance manager calls me and asks me when I'd like turn it in and do the paperwork, so I tell him I'll come in at 11:00 to return the car. He asks one more time if I had found any other source of money to pay. I told him the most I could do was $600 and not be uncomfortable. He said fine, then I'll see you at 11:00. So I pull up, walk into his office and he says, so what do you want to do, I told him I wanted to return the car. He then proceeds to tell me that the general manager is in a "good mood" today. Write a check for $600 and we're even. :goldfish: I wrote the check, it's over, once and for all. I never expected an ending as twisted as this. I'm happy with my 2004 MT6 Silver/Ebony TL! Thank You for your help and insight! Now, we can get to talking about the TL, not financial matters.

Twenties

I knew they were bluffing!

Good shiiyt.

Make sure you get them to put it in writing that the $600 was to clear up the misunderstanding , and clearly expressly write this out and have them sign this..!!

CYA.

2004MT6TL

from 3500 to 600, yea pretty good discount eh. We signed a form on Acura Letterhead stating that I paid the $600 to clear up the $3500 difference. Should I still go back for service? The next dealership is 101 West in Calabsas, 40 miles away. Or shoud I just go to Honda for oil changes?

Twenties

Never go there again. Who knows what they might do to your car as payback.

TLover

All that for six hundred %$@# dollars!!!

2004MT6TL

Well, um, yeah. The hoopla was over the 2 G's. :hitit:

TLover

No, no. I mean the dealer did this to you over a lousy 600 bucks. Bad business.

Formula 350

I would not have any problem going there for service. The service dept and sales dept are different. Why would the service manager want to lose money because the sale people screwed up. It is his wallet that would be ligher and not the sales guys. They have their money and have moved on....

Try it out and see if they are any good at service for the final decision.

neuronbob

2004MT6TL

Oh, yeah. Especially after they wouldn't even budge to 1500. Bad business indeed. At lease