svtmike

This wouldn't even make it to TV. Some 19 year old kid trading in his expensive X5 for another expensive car and who could reasonably be suspected to know something was seriously wrong with the X5 just wouldn't play well for the sympathy of the general audience. He's just not obviously innocent in the matter and the dealership is not obviously guilty of anything except protecting legitimate business interests.

Mike

davenlei

I am sure this will never make it to the TV unless there are multiple cases of do-overs that this dealer has done.
I do have to say this is the first time I have ever seen a dealer do this. I had a co-worker trade in a car they had towed near the dealer and baby it into the parking lot for the trade. The dealer never called her back when they discovered the car could not drive more than two miles without stalling. But it was no X5 either.

dandhelmick

I believe. This is great point that we could start another 14 page thread on. How many 3rd party stories have you heard (or it's happend to you) of people getting ripped off by mechanics for repairs not needed. There have been huge stories on Dateline, 20/20, 60 minutes (or name any investigative news show) about how mechanics rip people off.

I understand the printout said there was a "leakdown". But if you were 19 years old and had seen and heard stories about how mechanics suggest repairs that are unneccesary (Mechanics ARE in the business of making money too, right?!), the mechanics are being paid by the hour, they can't tell you exactly what they are looking for and the CEL light is now off...might you assume there really was no problem???????

aerocorp005

This sounds like a flip situation compared to mine, the dealer stuck it to me on a set of rims and then claimed I had tampered with them, then when I called them on it they refused to do anything about it. I spoke with a lawyer and waiting to hear back from them if they are willing to settle this outside of court. Hope everything works out for you.

davenlei

aerocorp005,

Are you the guy who bought the new '06 TL where the dealer switched your TPMS rims with '05 non-TPMS rims and said you did it to try to get another set of free TPMS rims?

aerocorp005

You are correct.

harminder247

iTrader: (1)

that i am

Imtheweezel

This thread has gotten so long that it's impossible to keep up, so I'm not up to date, but let me tell you that after reading the thread on what happened to aerocorp I don't give a **** about what happens to dealers anymore. I hope h-man sticks it to those @ssholes and teaches them a lesson!

Here's the link to the other thread:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...0&page=1&pp=25

graphicguy

I'm with automag on this one. I've driven/worked on, several V8s (super charged, turbo charged, normally aspirated) for bracket racing. If you've got 28% leakdown on 1 cylinder, you'll know it. The plug in that cylinder will foul in short order. The misfiring that causes, will make the engine stutter and shake. White/blue smoke will come out of the tailpipe. Not sure about BMWs, but on GMs and Fords, the ECU will put the engine into "limp mode" to keep from damaging other engine parts, and power will be cut. The fuel filter will become clogged with oil, starving the cylinder(s) from getting combustible fuel.

28% blowby would tell me there is a cracked head.....worst case scenario, it's a cracked block. Don't know if you've ever tried to drive a car who's engine has a cracked head, but it's not fun.

The BMW mechanic, in saying the vehicle needs a new short block, that the block is indeed cracked. Again, trying to drive any vehicle who's engine has a cracked block, 4 cyl/6cyl/8cyl/rotary engine....doesn't matter, you're going to know it immediately and it won't drive well.....AT ALL. A simple plug replacement ain't going to alleviate the problem.

Surprised that the BMW mechanic didn't perform a compression check if he's recommending a block replacement.

$15,000 fix? Hell, I could buy TWO (maybe 3) big block hemi engines and have one put into the BMW for that amount of money and have plenty left over for mods.

Maybe I can buy this BMW from the dealer. Knowing this whole scenario, I could buy it on the cheap. I could tell the dealership I know all about the diagnosis from BMW mechanic to replace the block. I could tell them I know all about the $15K repair....deduct it from the purcahse price. I could drain the fuel tank from whatever bad gas is in there. Replace the fuel filter. Replace the EGR. Fill it up with clean gas. Reset the CEL. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that the CEL would never come on again. Total cost of the fix? Maybe a $100.

BMW mechanic is full of feces. So is the Toyota dealership.

graphicguy

automag.....I bet that sounded great. I just finished up helping a bud put a Bassini on an '05 Mustang GT. Next up is a supercharger. It's going to be a bad whammer jammer......going for 500 HP. These new Mustangs are surprisingly stout.

trenth1028

I have been in the car business for about 10 years now and I am shocked to hear about your situation. You can talk to a lawyer all you want, but I would not spend a dime. Tell the dealer to sue you, he can't do anything. A deal is a deal, but if he wants to spend the dealer's money on something he is going to get nothing out of, let him. You could probably end up with the car back, your new car, and some money in the long run. He is just running his mouth, not your fault he lost some money, happens every day.. You win some, you lose some, you just try to win more than you lose.. Apparently, he needs to get a new job because he isn't very good at the one he has. If I was the GM, he would not be working for me, especially after threatening a customer over HIS mistake!!!!

fast-tl

Have you read the thread, and my last couple of posts? BMW changed the plugs which got rid of the CEL, then Houdaman apparently drove it for a short while, then Toyota drove it, and guess what: NO ONE noticed a drivability issue, so you're flat wrong there, not just wrong. As I said in my las couple of posts, perhaps on a "performance" engine like the 330hp V8 I had in my '97 Z28, it would be more obvious, but it clearly wasn't in this case. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
Also, BMW said it *might*, not definitely, need a new block. They were uncertain, again likely because the problem wasn't as noticeable as you and automag seem to think.
So what do you say to that?

davenlei

hope things work out for you aerocorp. Let us know if there are any new updates to your issue.

Regarding to the original starter of this thread. If you really want to stir things up, just go protest and hold up signs stating what the dealer is doing to you in front of the dealer (on public sidewalks) to scare away customers. If the GM comes out to confront you, tell them to leave you alone and drop the harrasement and lawyer and you will go away. If not, let him know you are only 19 and have a lot of free time to protest in front of their dealership.
I used to live in Torrance and there was a guy who would drive and park his Toyota truck in front of the Toyota headquarters every weekend with a HUGE sign that voiced his problems with the truck and how corporate had brushed off his complaints. He did that for a long time but eventually went away. I am not sure if he got them to help him or if he gave up. I doubt he gave up because he did this for a long time and it seemed as if he was really into it for the long haul.

graphicguy

That's the point. BMW mechanic said there was 28% leakdown. He also said that in order to know what is causing it, he had to do an engine teardown. Automag and I are challenging the diagnosis since, as you and houda state, there were no driveabliity problems when Toyota test drive it and houda had the BMW mechanic replace the plugs. Just the CEL lit up. BMW mechanic is looking for a cracked head or block by doing the teardown....for a simple CEL. Toyota dealer states it will cost $15K to do it. They "kindly" state that houda should send them a $10K cashier's check to cover it.

Automag has some exeperience in auto mechanics (as do I). He and I agree that whatever diagnosis the BMW mechanic made, is FLAT WRONG. That makes the Toyota dealer FLAT WRONG in his demands.

28% leakdown is going to cause misfiring, fouled plug(s), from oil getting into the combustion chamber. That in turn, will cause blue smoke from the exhaust and VERY NOTICEABLE driveability issues. In the case of a cracked block, anti-freeze will also be introduced into the cylinder(s). That will cause bluish white smoke from the exhaust. It doesn't matter if it's a 4cyl, 6 cyl or an 8 cyl.

I'll repeat my bet of a dollar to a dime that the CEL is a simple fix....one that the BMW dealer/mechanic can't/won't diagnose correctly. And one that the BMW dealership is looking to "rape" a young, unsuspecting person for a rip off. Toyota dealer is too lazy and greedy to have it diagnosed correctly....and trying to scare houda into paying a hefty fee for.

Instead of the BWM mechanic and the Toyota dealer going for the most probable issue (bad gas, clogged fuel filter, EGR), they want houda to pay the for an expensive (and way overpriced) teardown, that probably won't fix the issue, anyway.

For $10K-$15K, I can buy a brand new high performance crate motor (an LS2 would be tasty), install it, and have plenty of money left over. That's what the Toyota dealer is charging for a simple CEL issue. It's ridiculous.

Houda.....any updates?

automag928

Exactly!!! To have that leak down result, but the symptoms we are being told - something does not add up right! Either A) we are being spoon-fed our info in this thread (like I said before; and for OBVIOUS reasons I'm sure) or B) the damn BMW dealer completely sucks @ service & repair work and toyota doesnt want to do/verify the work themselves and is looking to cash in!!

Graphic - sounds like you and I came from the same blood - Shoooot! for 10-15k you are talking LS7 all the way!!!! :-D You could almost buy a 98ish high mileage ls1 camaro and drop an ls7 in it for that kinda money WOOT!

fast-tl

Eureka! Now we're on the same page. Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were backing up the BMW dealer's diagnosis, not questioning it. Now I see where you're coming from, and I agree.

awood

I agree that paying $10K isn't an option. On the other hand, if the dealer is willing to trade back cars, then the problem has to be serious. There is no way that they'd offer to swap cars back on the off chance that the OP would pony up another 10 grand, because they know he won't.

Rapid1

What we know…CEL was on, engine was misfiring…reason it was taken to BMW service and the customer complaint on the work order.

Modern OBDII engine control electronics (federally mandated) have the ability to assess individual cylinder efficiency thru O2 sensors (usually at least two, each bank headpipe) and various sensors (crankshaft and camshaft position). The CEL was probably triggered by the misfiring cylinder(s). Spark plug inspection likely led to a cylinder leakdown test to determine the cause of the misfire, whether mechanical or electrical. A finding of 28% denotes a serious mechanical issue with possibly a valve, piston ring or piston or related mechanical component. A compression test may or may not fall out of limits (lowest cyl at least 75% of highest cyl). As others have said before, a telltale hissing of air could possibly be heard from the oil cap, intake or exhaust. But both the intake and exhaust have many components in between the cyl and the respective opening. Hissing may not be evident without further disassembly of other components.

What we don’t know…the condition of the spark plug from the suspected cylinder. It is assumed it was oil or gas fouled, indicating cyl pressures not sufficient for complete combustion or excessive oil in the cyl from defective rings, valve seals or piston.

At any rate, the BMW dealer did not note that the problem was fixed, as far as the condition that led to the CEL and misfiring cylinder. They recommended further diagnosis and gave the customer a worst case scenario for the repairs. The customer declined further diagnosis and had fresh spark plugs installed. This temporarily cured the problem of the CEL and misfiring but did not fix the underlying condition. They more than likely (facts not in evidence) made the customer aware that the CEL was not fixed and that it and the misfiring would return in time. This was obviously correct given this information…

This statement actually verifies the information given by the BMW store was correct. The problem was fixed temporarily…long enough for an appraisal test drive by the unsuspecting sales manager. The original condition returned in just a few weeks. And will continue to return until corrected.


I have to laugh at comments like this. 5-6 years of driving experience qualifies one to diagnose technical electronic/mechanical engine problems and the second, well, if you know anything about cars you probably know that the fuel filter isn’t anywhere near oil unless you dump some in the fuel tank. Maybe he meant to say air filter?

This thread has so many ramifications but it shows one thing for sure…opinions are like assholes, only some of em stink worse than others…

jcondon

Then maybe there really isn't 28% leakdown? Perhaps there is some problem but, it wasn't that bad. I would assume that the Acura dealer at least test drove it. They didn't notice a problem. If anyone would have noticed it should have been them.

graphicguy

Rapid1....what I meant to say is the fuel filter may be clogged. I "mistyped" when I said "WITH OIL" (typing faster than I'm thinking)....didn't mean that at all. A clogged fuel filter will also cause driveability issues and probably trip the CEL.

What I lack in age, I make up in experience. Up until recently (quit racing last year), I've been bracket racing with a friend ('97 Mustang with a modded 302) which we've torn down and built up more times than I care to remember. I've been working on this beast (and others) for 8 years. I'm not trying to "toot my own horn", it's just that I've had grease under my fingernails since I was 15. I've got plenty of mistakes and bloody knuckles to prove it.

I stand by my assessment. The BMW mechanic is looking for the most expensive "fix". Not the right fix. The Toyota dealer and/or the BMW mechanic is too lazy and greedy to find out what, if anything, is tripping the CEL.

If I were in Houda's shoes, I don't know that I would have done anything differently. He instructed the BMW mechanic to fix the CEL/misfire issue. Even there, the BMW mechanic chose to put in new plugs instead of starting with the most likely causes, and fixing those first. One fouled plug does not mean a cracked head or block, however. Depending on how long the plug had been in use, I probably would have pulled it out. Cleaned it. Regapped it. And put it back in. Then, I would have looked at the CEL codes to see what those pointed to. Those would have told him whether it was a fuel issue, or something else.

I would have started by replacing the fuel filter, and just to be on the safe side, drained the fuel tank, just in case the fuel was contaminated. I say the leakdown test was done and read wrong. Otherwise, the 28% leakdown would have made itself known way before the 2 weeks had passed since houda had the plugs replaced....and the signs would have been very noticeable when the Toyota dealer took it out to assess its value.

toynaround

I'm taking sides with Toyota and BMW. There is a lot of talk about all dealers being "bad" and the BMW mechanic being stupid or that BMW is trying to sell service when its not needed. We don't know if the above information is complete or truthful. No offense Houdaman but i think much of the conversation from BMW was ommitted and we were given only a sliver of the truth.

Here is my guess of what really happened.
1. BMW ran the tests and was pretty sure this engine needed major work.
2. They told Houdman the hefty costs.
3. He said he would have to think about it.
4. BMW said they put in a new set of plugs and re-set the code, warned him the problem would return and this was not a fix.
5. Houdaman decided to dump the car knowing it was a time bomb.
6. Toyota buys car and is told by BMW it needs major work
7. BMW tells Toyota that Houdman was told the same thing.
8. Toyota is pissed.

The difference here is that i don't believe all the BS about BMW saying it ran fine. I think Houdaman sugar coated it for us. I guess we are all supposed to take his side because he is "one of us" and all dealers and mechanics are bad guys.

awood

I was looking at a Carmax contract here in the USA. Although they give you a "bank draft" for the car when you drop it off, they also make it clear that they hold back the funds for a couple of weeks. I imagine if any serious problems arise that the funds are not released.

I think it must be pretty common for used cars to suddenly develop "coincidental" problems just after they're sold. This case is only different because of the established paper trail.

lindros2

I agree with all of these above. Two comments.

1. What you did what (potentially) morally wrong. I sold a car in a similar situation but I ABSOLUTELY had it fixed before selling it (it was a minor oil leak but could have been bigger).
2. Reverse the situation. Do you think THEY would have honored an AS-IS warranty in a similar manner? Probably not (it's a morality call).

I'd probably get a lawyer to CYA but that might be construed as "I thought something was up..."

-josh

broly

Harminder you disgrace all sikhs with your little "gangster" poses

audi_to_TL

iTrader: (2)

No need to bring religion into this....his beliefs and yours should stay to yourself....and yes I am sikh.

And thats how kids in Cali talk....they think its cool or somethin

Guy Legend

But I'll agree with audi_to_TL, no need for that here.....

harminder247

iTrader: (1)

um one thing, no im not a gangster, no im not tryin to be a gangster, but over the years this is how i got used to typing, ight? so far im in college, yes hard to belive it but yes i am, im tryin to end up in the computer tech field, so no i am not a dumb ass or anything, and jus to get all you people to shut up and off my back, I am a talented young man that has the brains to do it all and oh yeah sayin im a disgrace to be a sikh? how do you know? you seen me? do you know what the religion is all about? jus cus i talk or TYPE like this means im a disgrace?
well buddy get your facts straight alrighty and if you sayin im a disgrace to sikhs made you feel like a man, ill let you say it once more be my quest cus again, i dont care what you think of me, ppl talk shit, some more than others

Rapid1

I say you are wrong. I spent 16 years as an electrical/driveability technician with ASE and GM master certifications and worked on the first computer controlled vehicles ever produced. I actually performed similar diagnosis and fixed vehicles with just the symptoms described here...on vehicles much less sophisticated than this BMW actually, as I moved into service management in '94. on the other hand, you and others posting here, are saying here you know more about what was going on than the BMW service personnel without any more qualification than some backyard engine tear-downs or dirty fingernails since you were 15. you have no clue what it takes in the way of training and equipment to diagnose problems on modern vehicles. also, you are saying that the Toyota personnel should have known this vehicle was defective. I say that even with limited information provided by houdaman, BMW's advice to continue diagnosis sounds correct and it is entirely unlikely that Toyota would have noticed anything that would clue them into a potentially major problem from an assessment test drive. no dealership performs tune up diagnostics (cylinder balance, leakdown tests) on vehicle appraisal. if they feel the need for that kind of assessment, they would usually pass on the vehicle or offer a value that would allow them to wholesale it...hence, lowball it.

many of you are continually implying that both of these dealers are rip offs and with little or no real information or qualification to interpret more if you had it. most of you dont even have an accurate idea of what happens with the whole process. the fact that most dealers just eat this type of situation is correct, but in this case, the Toyota dealer has written documentation that houdaman knew about the defects of this vehicle. they usually dont, and this is precisely the reason this scenario doesnt happen very often.

All this dealer/mechanic hate is basically uncalled for. who are any of you to decide how much profit a dealer makes? If you dont like the price, move on. I never felt the need to rip off consumers and I dont believe that most dealers/mechanics are crooks. cars and trucks have become endlessly complicated and there is hardly a time when diagnosis is simply cut and dried. the consumer got caught in the rip off this time and most of you dont want to acknowledge that fact or simply try to justify it with opinions not in fact. I hope this all turns out ok for houdaman and the dealer but any profits there might have been will just go to lawyers now.

norcaltl

I agree with Rapid1's accessment. Per Houdaman's own posting, the BMW dealership documents did not indicate the X5 was fixed, it was Houdaman's own words. Houdaman did not instruct the BMW dealership to fix the X5 because it "costed too much" and "ran fine iwth the plugs changed and CEL light off." Even if the X5's performance was off a bit, the Toyota dealership may not have noticed as they may not have any prior experience with the performace of a well-running X5.

your_mom

Whatever. Maybe I'm really unlucky, but almost every car problem I've ever had has required the dealer/mechanic two tries to fix right. It also always seems to take them one week for minor issues and two weeks for major (eg. transmission). I wouldn't argue with profit if they would fix stuff right the first time, turn it around in 24 hours, and not add a whole bunch of bogus fixes that have nothing to do with the problem. I've found exactly one shop in Atlanta that can manage that. Also, it's not like this stuff is hard, all they have to do is plug the car into the scanner and it will tell them exactly what is wrong. The Toyota dealer got what they deserve.

CBR1100XX

This thread has really gotten off track and sucks now.


All should note though: Don't ever buy anything from HouDMan LOL.

toynaround

You are simply wrong, hooking a car up to a computer diagnostic system is not 100% definitive, you are over simplifying what it takes to diagnose whats wrong in this case. We don't know if the leakdown test was done on the computer or done at the sparkplug. Neither method will be definitve as to whether its a valve problem or a cylinder problem.

More importantly, why do you think the Toyota dealer got what they deserve?

surferdude

I tried to look but this thread is so long now... But what's the situation now? Did someone cave?

graphicguy

Rapid1....absolutely no intention of questioning what you state as your qualifications.

But, what I am saying exactly......with the information given, I think the BMW mechanic is full of it. You don't go from "CEL" being the problem to engine teardown (to supposedly look for a cracked head or block) as the solution. My BMW experiences mirror what houda experienced. If the vehicle is under warranty, they'll look for the most logical (and usually less costly) diagnosis and fix. Once that vehicle is out of warranty, the diagnosis and proper fix changes to the most time consuming and most costly process. That's from owning two BMWs, bought from two different dealerships.

Your dealership may very well be one of the "good ones". There are plenty of bad ones out there, too.

On top of all that, the BMW dealership states it's going to cost $15K to do a teardown and a fix. Toyota dealership wants to give houda a "deal" by ONLY demanding a $10K cashier's check. Those two statements, right there, tells me neither of them are scrupulous business entities and only enhances my mistrust of both.

As you should know, you can buy entirely new, high performance crate engines and have them installed for much less than that....let alone charge that much for a CEL malfuntion.

CBR1100XX

He got a letter from the Toyo Lawyer stating eithee pay 10K or bring back the Tl. If neither Toyo will move forward with sueing.

P.S. Never buy anything from the dude in the Black Market!!!!!

neuronbob

I believe that this thread has run its course and is no longer useful. Houdaman, I'm sure, will update us when the time is appropriate.

I advised him not to comment further many pages ago in order to provide him a little protection legally.