Swat Dude

This topic appears so much on this thread it is sickening. Guess what?? The TL has torque steer. I experience it on a regular basis. This morning I shot away from the stoplight with one hand on the wheel (cell phone in the other) and the old torque steer jerked the car hard to the left. Did it catch me off guard? No. Was it a pleasant experience? No.

I think the big thing with RWD cars, especially the BMW's, is they install confidence in the average driver. Its easy for just about anyone to jump in a 330I and feel good and confident about driving around their favorite freeway clover leaf at a high rate of speed. RWD just reacts like most driver's think it should. Most driver's would describe the BMW as "fun to drive". The BMW gives a very nice steering response to the driver that just "feels good". It also just seems real easy to take the BMW right to the edge of its traction and driving limits and feel comfortable about being there.

Now, I'm going to get flamed by all the unrealistic TL owners, but IMO, the TL just doesn't instill that same level of confidence. The TL has way too much power steering assist at high speeds. Anyone who has taken several high speed turns in their TL has to notice this, it almost makes the steering wheel kind of bob back and forth slightly in the turn, especially if you don't have a death grip on it to hold it extremely steady. You also have the sensation that you could jerk it another 1/4 turn with your pinky. A correctly assisted steering system would give just the right amount of constant and substantial resistance on the steering wheel while in the turn. The steering in the TL doesn't really allow you to "feel" the turn.

With that said, I love my TL. I continue to push its limits and become more and more familiar with the way it reacts. The more I become familiar with it, the less and less torque steer is a problem. Basically...

TORQUE STEER is not for amateurs. LEARN YOUR CAR and SCHOOL YOURSELF IN HOW IT REACTS TO DIFFERENT DRIVING SITUATIONS. ACCEPT THE LIMITATIONS OF FWD and LEARN TO OVERCOME THEM. If you accelerate hard on pavement with less than stellar traction, be prepared to correct your vehicle when it veers off course slightly. RWD can cause similar problems, i.e. swerving slightly when encounter differing grip between tires. It's just less pronounced than with FWD, so be prepared.

Torque Steer??? Could it be an issue for someone racing their car. I suppose. But I also think an experienced driver could probably overcome most, possibly all of its limitations. I will never race my TL and for the putzing around town and the ocasionally twisty road, it's just really not that big of an issue for me.

Animate

Your points are well taken.
I love my TL. Best car I ever owned.
But I do NOT disagree with professional reviewers who lament the car's FWD layout.

Skeedatl

I agree...the TL is full of torque steer and that is what IMHO keeps the TL from being the perfect car. That being said...I don't care that much either...otherwise I would be driving a 330i or G35.

However in articles like in C&D, they should be more upfront about the affects on handling rather than making up shlt like "gotta have it factor" to give RWD platforms their deserved edge.

Teh Jatt

well said :bowdown:

you should work for some magazine and write a good review, and it'll be the first review that doesn't complain about torque steer

`ill*tl

Very well said.

Swat Dude

I'll admit I really don't know the answer to this, but how much do you really think torque steer affects actual performance of this car? I'm not talking weight distribution or RWD traction during acceleration, I'm talkin' torque steer. If C and D said they didn't like the weight distribution or complained about the tires spinning, I might understand, but its always torque steer, torque steer. Is this a negative just because of the feel???? When accelerating hard, I really didn't think a slight twitch to the left or right was that difficult to overcome. I'm not saying I like the feeling of torque steer, but taking away all the other arguments, does the torque steer really do any harm other than really not "feeling right"????

Skeedatl

Torque steer adversely affects suspension load as well as contribute to driver fatigue. And while you want to exempt those other factors like FWD traction and weight distribution, it all contributes to the desire for RWD. Torque steer is a result from unbalanced force between the 2 drive wheels. This unbalanced force contributes to lessened traction and unstable driving behavior.

Torque steer isn't what keeps the TL from being the perfect platform. It's FWD that does, and big HP and FWD simply culminate in torque steer among other issues. It did with Cadillac, it did with Lincoln and even the Diamond Star platforms of the early 90's and it continues today.

Simply put, torque steer is the most obvious "symptom" of FWD balance issues. It's the "force" acting on the driver than anyone who has driven it, no matter how hard or mellow can identify.

If you beat the crap out of a TL vs. a RWD platform, you see the limitations placed on "tools" used in aggressive driving like driving with the trottle. Letting a RWD car step out, steering with the throttle is an essential part of aggressive driving and is simply not possible with FWD. Even E-braking as a substitute doesn't result in the desired effect. You still have to deal with front end push. With RWD, push is managable through throttle steering.

However, putting these things into words that the benchtop racers the read C&D understand is difficult. So they call it "fun factor" and "gotta have it factor". A complete disservice to those actually looking for the meat of their opinions.

For those types of opinions you have to look toward more serious publications like AutoWeek.

UA66

Torque steer..whatever

So your BMW wags it's tail when you dive into a turn, it's all the dynamics of the particular car your driving.

However 99.9% of the the time your crusing down the highway. Now how nice is it to be in the interior of a TL looking out! Set the Navi and XM radio without moving your hands from the steering wheel.. try that in BMW. Oh, right I forgot about that I-Drive (don't laugh).

Enjoy the ride!

Skeedatl

Try setting your dynamic cruise control in your TL.

Every car is different...it's your money to spend and choose.

This thread isn't about another stupid TL vs. Brand X debate. The question was about torque steer. Try at least for a second to stay on topic.

Teh Jatt

so what does this I-DRIVE do on those bimmers? let u take your hands off the steering and feet off the pedals and it drives it self? plz xplain

Tripp11

I Drive is that crazy arse contraption that runs everything in the BMW's: heating, cooling, radio, etc... Think of it like having all those controls on one screen except with no switches or buttons, just a small mouse that spins and moves to do it all.

Managing partner's wife has a 7 series with the I Drive...she's had it for almost a year now and still can't figure it out.

kilrb

I don't own a TL, but I have driven a 295hp STS about 8 or 9 years ago. That was where I first learned what torque steer was, and ever since, I don't understand why people whine about it! I can't imagine the TL is going to have any more torque steer than that STS, and to me, it was just something you noticed, not something that affected anything. If anything, I think it makes you feel like your car is more powerful... I'd probably prefer a rwd TL, but the fact that it's FWD doesn't even factor into muy decision to purchase one. Some people (and writers) just need something to b!tch about!

UminChu

Swat Dude and Skeedatl: Those are some excellent posts. Also owning a 6MT, it happens to me now and then, so I know that you're talking about. You're absolutely right, it's not the be all, end all, perfect car. I'm ok with that, I won't be modding it or racing it, and rarely, if ever, will I driving it at 8/10ths. I still admire the G35s, 3 & 5 Series, and various other world class RWD alternatives that were available to me. Magazines and enthusiasts are entitled to their preferences, and I respect their opinions and expertise. Torque steer and all, this car works for me just fine for me. Thanks for explaining the torque steer issue so eloquently.

vtechbrain

The TL does not have torque steer!!!! Its an LSD!!!! Thats the reason the manual has steering wheel "jiggle" and the auto doesn't. I've Driven my manual for over 8K and had the jiggle only once! Once you learn that the car is not meant to have dragster launches you'll never feel it again! I can still do 0-60 in 6 sec seconds and not feel the LSD attempting to limit differential traction. On the twisties on the other hand I can pump that gas without fear of losing power or traction through wheelspin making this car unbelievably fast on curves. A TL 6 speed will lap road courses much faster than most RWD sports sedans since you dont have to worry about spinning the car. I'll bet hard cash that a good FWD driver on a TL will consistently beat any BMW 330 or Infinity G35 hot head on any road course out there. As I've said before, I have seen only one car spin out and flip on a commercial shot (with a "proffesional" driver to boot) A BMW 3 SERIES!!!!!!

Bitium

I totally agree with you. I test drove the car and I punch it a few times.....the car handle great....no torque steer. I can't speak for the automatic, but the 6mt does not have Torque steer plain and simple.

2obsessed

One of the consoling factors about fwd & torque steer for me, is that when I'm on the gas hard out of a corner, and it pulls, I realize that if I were in a rwd car, that little pull, could instead be big oversteer, which can put you WAY out of line, like right into the other lane, rather than just moving slightly to one side. Sure, in most case traction control would stop you, but it can be a real hairy experience.

Skeedatl

A limited slip differential has an adverse effect on torque steer; it doesn't eliminate it. The TL most ABSOLUTELY has torque steer, which is caused by a number of factors including unequal tire traction, differing drive axle length, suspension geometry, engine movement on the mounts, and the list goes on.

EVERY front drive car has a certain amount of torque steer, it is UNAVOIDABLE. It is especially unavoidable with higher HP motors like that in the TL.

As for your last comments, a TL 6-Speed will get SMOKED by RWD exactly because you can't drift the rearend. A properly drifting car is kept "pointed" in the right direction, directing the thrust away from curves. With the TL, there is no redirection. Any attempt at redirection will result in push. This excessive and uncontrollable push is just a consequence of FWD and there is no throttle steering or anything else that can overcome that.

vtechbrain

Crock alert! FWD vs RWD BS. RSX's smoke M3's on road courses all the time, therefore your statement is false on face value!

UminChu

I disagree with you, the car exhibits both torque steer and understeer. Sometime, traffic permitting, drive down an uncrowded street at a slow speed, then abruptly accelerate. When you feel the car want to jerk one way or the other, that's not LSD, that's torque steer exascerbated by LSD.

When aggresively driving the twisties, you may feel confident about a lowered incidence of spinout, but I would encourage you to be very aware of and prepared for an understeer condition, where in spite of attempting both steering wheel and throttle input to negotiate or exit a curve, the car will still want to plow straight ahead.

I really don't want to start this debate again, but it is plain to me that a well designed RWD setup is much more predictable and communicative at the limits. I love my TL. At the same time, I'm not trying to kid myself that it's something it's not.

Bitium

unequal tire traction? I gues that applies to all cars while cornering.

Different drive axle length? not an issue with the TL.

Suspension geometry? can you explain how it affects the TL.

Engine movement on the mounts???? really doubt it it has an effect on torque steer on the TL.

What else is on the list?????????

Skeedatl

Oh please. Don't tell me I have to open a racing school here. Alright...

RWD is all about balance and vectoring...RWD simply offers better weight balance. Seeing as you think FWD is superior, I'm assuming that you don't understand these contributions of weight balance. A properly balanced car improves handling, turn-in, acceleration and braking. Now I'll explain why for those who have never been autocrossing.

Improved balance as a consequence of RWD lends itself to more neutral cornering, versus the push seen with FWD. For those who don't understand the neutral loading concept, it simply means that a neutral car has more equal loads between the 4 tires as it enters a corner. The more equal the load, obviously the better the traction. With FWD, the unbalanced nose weight will cause the front tires to reach their traction capacity long before the rears do...this results in push (push is where the car doesn't want to turn even when you turn the wheels...it just slides). Any forces of acceleration on the front tires (now in physics, acceleration isn't just changing speed, it's also changing direction even with the same speed since additional force is needed to change the direction), are just compounding this front loading problem. A RWD car with its lighter nose will permit easier cornering (sometimes called turn in)...this is a result of the controlling of push. Now this is where "road feel" plays a role. Better turn in makes the car "feel" better, like you're in better control. Since the optimum condition is to have forces evenly distributed between the road holding surfaces; this happens ONLY with AWD or RWD. Also with RWD as the rear tires reach their own load capacity, the fronts are left to steering forces only. You can change the vector of the car using the throttle in RWD by making the car loose on purpose. This driver induced loose condition (loose is where the front tires maintain grip while the rears dont) results in better vectoring of the forces driving the car making it faster than FWD and is much more desirable than drift (where all 4 tires lose grip). I've already described the problems of torque steer in a previous post and the causes including unequal traction which frequently occurs during cornering. With FWD these forces act upon not only the drive tires, but those same tires also control steering. Torque steer can make the car highly unstable when cornering. RWD suffers no torque steer. Torque steer in RWD is only purposely used in the form of tire stagger (differing tire diameters, make a car naturally want to turn left...as in NASCAR...or right depending on which side is bigger).

RWD also has superior grip when accelerating simply because upon acceleration you transfer the majority of the cars weight on to the drive tires increasing traction, unlike FWD where any foward acceleration results in weight being transferred off the drive tires at the exact moment you don't want it to. This results in wheelspin...and wheelspin of the front tires only only kills acceleration, but also makes the car difficult to steer (as when exiting a corner). With RWD, loss of drive wheel traction doesn't result in loss of steering. The car can still be vectored while the drive tire slippage occurs.

With braking you see the same forces adversely affecting performance as you did with handling and acceleration. The disproportionate amount of weight over the drive tires can easily cause the tires to reach their road holding capacity long before the rears, limiting your braking forces. With RWD, there is more rear downforce from gravity remaining for the rear tires to work with, permitting the rear brakes to contribute more work than is possible with a FWD platform.

That fact is, the vast majority of purpose built racers are RWD for a reason...these reasons and in classes where a FWD and RWD would compete against each other like in SCCA, the RWD will be handicapped with extra weight to make it "fair".

Skeedatl

All of these factors can contribute to torque steer. With the TL, the biggest is the LSD's inability to handle the HP. In order to control vibration in the car, the TL isn't using a hard engine mount (could even be liquid filled so that these vibrations aren't transferred to the cabin). Obviously a softer mount permits engine movement under full power. You sit there are rev it, you won't see it because you aren't applying and resistance, but you apply the full 220lbft of torque and the engine CERTAINLY moves changing the drive axle angle and thus the torque applied to each wheel by the drive axles. Changes in suspension geometry are caused by changes in load...changes in load result in changes in traction...not exactly rocket science. Unequal tire traction is RWD doesn't create torque steer as the drive wheels aren't the same as the steering gear.

Anyone who claims that the TL doesn't suffer form torque steer isn't beating their car hard enough. Mine certainly has torque steer...but it's expected with higher HP FWD and for the value I'm getting from my TL I could care less if it has it or not. I love my TL torque steer, fake wood 'n' all.

TLover

After testing driving the TL, it most definitely has torque steer. Of course, I expected that being the car is pushing 270 hp through the front wheels. Is it a big deal? To me, no. After driving the G35 coupe and the VW R32, I think I'm going to buy the TL. As far as the RWD vs. FWD debate, a FWD car is inherently at a disadvantage but there ARE things you can do to minimize that. I had a CRX Si that I could power oversteer or even lift-throttle oversteer. This is where adjustable shocks and sway bars come into play. You want a more neutral hanlding car? Stiffen up that rear suspension by stiffening the rear shocks and adding a bigger rear sway bar. Trust me, you won't be worried about RWD vs. FWD any more.

kilrb

I would assume he was referring to FWD vs RWD in the same setup (frame, engine, tranny, etc.). There are too many other factors when comparing a FWD RSX vs. a RWD M3 to say that where the car puts the power down is the decisive factor...

vtechbrain

Yep its just silly how everybody eats into this RWD/FWD BS.

Skeedatl

Keep telling yourself it's B.S. Eventually you'll convince yourself you made the right decision getting a TL.

Me, I know there are better cars out than the TL...but I didn't care. I had a budget and looked for the best value for my money. In that...I picked the TL.

But I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that the TL is God's gift. It's ain't. It's a great sedan...but certainly not the greatest sedan.

kilrb

How can you agree with what TLlover says, and then say the RWD/FWD debate is BS? The first thing he says about the issue is that a "FWD car is inherently at a disadvantage". Sure, there are compensations, but most people aren't going to upgrade the suspension, etc. That being said, most people aren't pushing their $30K+ sedans enough to suffer from teh FWD disadvantage, either...

TLover

I think the most important point about FWD vs. RWD is it's HARDER to drive a RWD car. Plus, how many people driving a TL or G35 or a 330i are driving at the limits of adhesion?

vtechbrain

Obviously there are better cars out there the M3, S4, M5, S2000, Boxster S 911 and so on and yes they are all RWD or AWD and essentially racing cars, that is patently obvious, my point is that among its direct competition I dont think there are any cars that can beat it in a road course, not the 330 and not the g35, lexus, maxima,saab, volvo, jaguar and so on.

UminChu

I'm not so sure that a TL will outrun a G35 or 330 on a road course in the dry.

vtechbrain

Trust me, there is no doubt. The presumed handling advantage cannot make up for the speed advantage of the TL, some publications have actually claimed the TL to be the fastest slalom sedan they have ever tested (with the potenzas).

jedmonds

You make it sound like the TL would just hand the G35 and 330 it's asses. I think it would be very close race.

vtechbrain

No, it wont. But any loss to a Bimmer owner is the end of the world since they are brainwashed as to the Ultimate Driving Machine BS. The look of bewilderment on their faces when they get whipped is PRICELESS!

jedmonds

I agree with you on that. BMW owners tend to be asses.

Whats the difference between a Rose and a BMW....

The pricks on the outside of the rose......

vtechbrain

I'm going to have to remember that one!

Skeedatl

Do you have any PROOF to back your conjecture? Like links to tests between these cars on the same day and same track?

I don't buy it. Wet, dry...no TL is going to trounce a 330i and G35.

jedmonds

You're right dude....acura tl is the fastest thing on the planet. nothing can touch it.

vtechbrain

YEs, NO, yes, no, its like Lisa and Bart Simpson!!!

Skeedatl

Huh? Perhaps you should reread my post and try again. What part of "I don't buy it. Wet, dry...no TL is going to trounce a 330i and G35. " did you not agree with?

jedmonds

Sorry missed reading a couple of the posts. I don't think the TL would TROUNCE the G35 or the BMW.....it would be close.

And there has only been one test by Car and Driver where the TL got faster times then the G35. And most people would agree those are some very slow times for the G35 considering, other magazines getting 5.6-5.7 0-60 and 14.2 quarter mile. And Plenty of people on the G35 forums getting 14.2's or less in the quarter mile when they take their cars to the track.