CarbonGray Earl

Not flaming here, but TSX > TL handling, stock vs. stock. I've test driven both, and I choose the TSX because it was more nimble and a bit more communicative. The TSX is a smaller car, with more concentrated mass and center of gravity. It felt better balanced by matter of pure physics.

However, the TL-S seems to be a great handler. Haven't driven one, but for it to do so well in mag comparos against more powerful RWD sedans is saying volumes about to me about the way this car drives. I'd like to see how it would stack up against TSX w/ a-spec on handling alone (powerwise and featurewise, its bye-bye TSX).

XxAfG786xX

The TLS after its break-in period is awesome..torque steer diminishes, and yea with sticky tires and a good drop the TL kicks ass IMO

BEAR-AvHistory

Key feature noted in the test was the limited slip differential - only the 6MT has it.

BTW I don't believe torque steer goes away with some break-in miles...you just get used to dealing with it.

dug-mac

^^
But in the tests that I've read they've made mention that the AT has less torque steer than the MT...

BEAR-AvHistory

The computer pulls more power out at the top of the rev range & plays with the brakes in the auto to make this reduction. Additionally an autos torque converter absorbs some of the input harshness but it slows the cars responces.

You can reduce torque steer in the 6MT by shutting off the computer & relying solely on the LSD. This stops the computers less then great software & LSD from trying to override each other.

The 6MT & 5AT are aimed at different market segments & are designed to handle those specific market requirements.

Bottom line is the 6MT is quicker then the 5AT through the twisties & in acceleration.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

The article was about larger sports sedans that were FWD.

Yes the Civic Si 2 or 4 door OUT handle the TL-S. I know.

dug-mac

That was a good explanation, Bear-AvHistory, of the differences between the AT and MT. I wonder if you could comment on why manufacturers sometimes recommend higher tire pressures in MT cars (sometimes 35/32 in MT and 33/32 in AT) - is it just their perception of how they think people will drive the car, or has it to do with some of your explanation above?

BEAR-AvHistory

My MT is a 35/32 unit with summer tires & did not know the AT's carried less air.

I am not really sure about the perception of the manufacture. Higher pressure will cause a harsher ride all things being equal, but it will also hold its footprint better in a hard turn or under acceleration & braking loads.

Tires in a front drive car are really stressed as they have to steer, power, stop & support most of the weight so any help they can get is beneficial.

My Pickup 4X4 5MT & SUV 4X4 5AT are 30/35. I will take a look at the BMW 6MT when my wife gets home.

dug-mac

Not sure about the AT TL-S - it may spec 35/32. But I have seen it in other places where they have spec'd more pressure in the MT. I agree that more pressure will allow the tire to hold it's footprint better, but I also think that one can go too far and effect more than just the ride quality. What might be right on the track might not be right on the road. The road generally has more imperfections where tire stiffness could adversely effect grip (particularly in a poorly banked rough turn). I'm always experimenting to hit that sweet spot where the handling is taught and yet still compliant for the type of roads I encounter. But now I'm getting a little off the main subject of this thread...

BEAR-AvHistory

One additional thing, I just checked the BMW & it runs 32/36.

What is interesting is it has just about a 50/50 weight distrubution but the stock rear tires in addition to taking more air are also bigger then the fronts.

225/45/17 ZR - 245/40/17 ZR

As for recommended pressures when the car is at MGVW they want 39/46 in the tires..

dug-mac

I have noticed that both BMW and Mercedes often run much higher pressures in rear even though like you say they are often 50/50 weight balance. Tire pressure is a somewhat odd science - at least from where I sit...

dug-mac

Since we're a little off topic anyway I wondered, Bear-AvHistory, if you could compare your TL to your BMW for the benefit of all of us. I assume your BMW is the 3 series? I suspect the BMW probably has sharper dynamics, etc., but how do they compare across the board in your mind? What is the total ownership experience like between the two? Thanks...

HQTL6SPD

In my 04 6mt, i have 35psi of nitrogen all around for about a week so far, and holy crap its feels great!! This took away a bunch of understeer/body roll feel. It gave me the same effect of when i put on progess rsb. I went from needing two hands on the wheel (with a little muscle) on a curve, to just one easy hand with no problem.

I took a quick turn one time, and i thought i felt the rear kick out a little bit, i was going down a hill though..

dug-mac

^^
Have you tried putting more psi in the front (or maybe since you're already at 35 psi, dropping the rears slightly? Many recommend 2-3 psi more in the front to negate some of the understeer tendency. Is the ride harsh with 35 psi on all 4?...

HQTL6SPD

not harsh at all, feels better to me. i actually had 37 in the fronts, but tires spin easier and screech sometimes while turning. imo its perfect 35 all around. since theres less weight in the back, you really don't need to worry about exessive wear. and you'll get good even life out of tires as long as you rotate.

dug-mac

What is the recommended pressures on your car? 35/32, 32/32, 33/32?...

BEAR-AvHistory

The TL is a 2006, 30K & about a year old (14,000mi), was an end of the year buy to get the 6MT. The BMW is a 2004 330Ci power pack convertible, 43K bought in Jan 2004. (53,000mi).



Both cars have summer tires, factory optional on the TL & Yoko ES-100 on the BMW.

Fuel economy just about the same. I make a few round trips, 995mi, a year from Carolina to the Jersey shore & both cars return 30-31 @ 75-80mph. The BMW is less tiring making the drive due to its lighter steering & better clutch engagement.



Traffic light grand prix depends on the driver to a large extent but think the BMW has a slight edge. The TL is competitive if you can get a good launch. You can always get a good launch in the BMW so its easier to get a hole shot with it.

BMW has a much better clutch, throttle feel, the TL has a better shifter feel, except for the throw into 3rd which you need to think about fully engaging.

Brakes on both, TL has Brembo, are both very good but the BMW has better balance since its not nose heavy which unloads the rears on the TL when you are working them.

The BMW is much better handing...no real comparison there. The TL's steering is heavy the BMW is much lighter which gives a better road feel & quicker response to inputs. Pushed at the same speed over the same section of road leading to my house, rising & falling curves with a few short straight sections & one long straight section the BMW is much more comfortable to drive & less error prone.

You feel like you have to muscle the TL through this section to maintain the same speed.

BEAR-AvHistory

The thing with air pressure is to much is as bad as to little. The tires were slipping because the tread bowed out & lost some of its contact patch at 37lbs.

As for the recommended air pressure on the door, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

dug-mac

Thanks, BEAR-AvHistory, for that excellent write up!! I'm sure it was beneficial to many of us. Do you still find the TL satisfying to drive after experiencing something better? With regard to air pressure I agree with you that too much is as bad as too little. I think many run too high because they like the initial turn-in response without realizing that they are sacrificing some ulitmate grip. You obviously know a lot more about cars than I do, so thanks again...

BEAR-AvHistory

Yes I like the TL very much & would buy it again at the same point in time.

The BMW has better seats, high side & seat bolsters, with the sports package & a tighter cockpit like feel but overall the TL has a more attractive interior with better electronics. That being said I usually take what ever is at the end of the driveway when I go out.

Plans down the road will be a replacement of the BMW with a retractable hard top 335, most likely this winter. I have always had a convertible since I was 18 & the BMW's 4 seat package is what I need.

Not sure about what will replace the TL as it will depend on what is available in that market segment.

I think for a purchase right now if Infinity had a 4 door version of the G-37 coupe I would go that way, especially if Honda does not step up to AWD or RWD for the TL. By the time the my TL is due to go I believe a 4.0 will be the prime performance engine in the price range & the FWD system will be overwhelmed by the engines torque.

BEAR-AvHistory

Actually I know just enough to be dangerous.

Was trained in the Army as a tracked vehicle recovery mechanic & have been building cars as a hobby for a long time.

dug-mac

Wow! nice stuff. Thanks for the pictures. I'm in much the same position you are with regard to updating. Might look at the 335XI or might wait for the 4th Gen TL. Hoping the new TL will be below 40K with all the features - that might make my decision...