TSX69

Info taken from Club Lexus:

1. TL-S 6MT - 1:36:67 sec
2. IS350 - 1:38:24
3. G35 6MT - 1:38:67






The pictures are acting funny but see scans of the article here:
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275963

george3761

Oh!! This is cool. Can someone translate? I wonder if they were all auto boxes or what.

godfather2

i'm pleasantly surprised ... i thought the fwd would be out of it's league

O.G.6speed

it's that V-TEC baby?

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

i am glad to see that some of the lexus members gave credit where it was due to Acura... other than the one who was comparing his own personal bias to the factual results from the professional driver....

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol, you can also find this article at a few other threads here at Acurazine!

Anyways, basically, what they said was the TL-S is the best handling FF car.

meowCat

Indeed! I too am quite surprised of their response and giving credit to Acura where it's due. I must respect them...



To others, the lesson we've learned is that the FWD doesn't mean it's always bad. It has its own advantages. The track times show that the RWD and high torque cars are not performing as good as the TL-S.

Someone in that Lexus forum mentioned that if the track had more curves the other two(IS350 & G35). I do not think so, because the TL-S is shining at the "track". If there were more curves, the TL would favor even more. It is the stand still take off and drag racing is where the higher HP/Torque cars will favor. This is a common sense. If you've noticed, it is the "Street of Williow Springs(SOW)" track where the TL-S obtained 1:32.88 sec. According to the track layout diagram, it is more curvy than the Willow Springs International Raceway. Obviously, in the Willow Springs International Raceway the TL-S outperformed the other two by 2 seconds. The TL-S cars surely do exceptional in the track I must say. Much much respect to the TL cars. I also do respect the Lexus obtaining great numbers considering it's an Auto tranny and it is the car with soft ride, it still managed to get good numbers. I love it.... I love it.... Ya know... I currently own an '06 TL 6MT black, and I got surprised how well it handled in cornering at high speeds. It handles like a freaking race car at 100 mph. When my lease is over I'm going with the TL-S 6MT yo.

meowCat

I am getting really irritated with this Post Edit feature giving only 5 minute limit. I get this message when I try to edit: The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 5 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message.

Mod, could you please remove this feature. I hate it. The other forums(computers/TV/Plasmas) do not have this limit. If you can't remove it, could you increase the time limit to 5 hours. 5 min is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy short. It is so short it's not even funny...... Or increase it to 2 days.. or something.



Mod Edit: No. But we can help you clean it up. -XP



Anyways, here is my repost. I had to edit my grammar.

Indeed! I too am quite surprised of their response and giving credit to Acura where it's due. I must respect them...



To others, the lesson we've learned is that the FWD doesn't mean it's always bad. It has its own advantages. The track times show that the RWD and high torque cars are not performing as good as the TL-S.

Someone in that Lexus forum mentioned that if the track had more curves the other two(IS350 & G35) would perform better and close the gap. I do not think so, because the TL-S is shining at the "track". If there were more curves, the TL would favor even more. It is the stand still take off and drag racing is where the higher HP/Torque cars will favor. This is a common sense. If you've noticed, it is the "Street of Willow Springs(SOW)" track where the TL-S obtained 1:32.88 sec. According to the track layout diagram, it is more curvy than the Willow Springs International Raceway. Obviously, in the Willow Springs International Raceway the TL-S outperformed the other two by 2 seconds. The TL-S cars surely do exceptional in the track I must say. Much much respect to the TL cars. I also do respect the Lexus obtaining great numbers considering it's an Auto tranny and it is the car with soft ride, it still managed to get good numbers. I love it.... I love it.... Ya know... I currently own an '06 TL 6MT black, and I got surprised how well it handled in cornering at high speeds. It handles like a freaking race car at 100 mph. When my lease is over I'm going with the TL-S 6MT yo.

reloaded

LOL @ Lexus forum members getting all pissy about the TL beating the IS. One guy brought in the fact that Lexus didn't make stick shift for the car, then another started bringing in the IS-F into the game LOL.

fan_bo

i dunno if anyone noticed the link on the Lexus forum to the video of the TL-S on the track with the drift king driving it
http://www.xanga.com/TL_Type_S
cool vid

meowCat

Our beloved forum member iforyou has already found and posted that a long time ago.... You are a few weeks late. https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156264 But... thanks for the contribution anyway.

Spheno_3SXZERO

Heh, I read an article in some driving magazine that compared the IS350, TL-S and G35-S and the TL came in second to the IS beacause of the Power difference... other than that, the TL-S was in the top spot in every other catagory nearly the entire time...

VTEC Racer

lol seems like the Lexus guys are trying to blame the results on different drivers now. All the cars had the same driver!!!! lolol. Is there anything else that they can possibly nit-pick at and use as an excuse for the TL being ahead by TWO SECONDS? Maybe the IS had a flat tire.

I can't stand the people in that forum. It's like a whole other ClubSi.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

man i need to learn how to drive like that and safely get my TL sideways... lolz

juruki

iTrader: (2)

2 seconds is a big difference... Im impressed with the TL. People underestimate the car only because its a FWD.

Xpditor

Brand Loyalty. You should know all about that. Lexus owners are rightly proud of their rides. Lexus makes some of the best quality cars on the planet.

The results of that test at Willow Springs turned Conventional Wisdom on it's ear. Even our members here have been surprised and amazed at the results.

Not me. I have been preaching for a couple of years now that my TL has NO torque steer unless you are flooring it going around a corner; yet folks have an image about FWD and they resist updating their knowledge base with facts. All FWDs are not the same and many such quirks have been dealt with.

Give credit to 1SickLex and the mods at ClubLexus for presenting this test in an objective way. After all, we do have a friendly competition going on between Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and everyone has strong opinions.

Every forum has a small percentage of Llamas- even ours.

Some of those guys are members here and vice-versa.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

wow Im surprised that even the Lexus people found that link to the video!! internet is amazing! btw, thx Meowcat for mentioning my name!

I guess we can't blame those people at the Lexus forum, I mean if the results were the opposite, as in IS350 won by 2 seconds, I might make up lame excuses too just to make myself feel better!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I agree there. I don't know about the 3rd gen TL, esp the 6MT ones, but in my 2nd gen auto TL-S, I have never noticed any torque steer. I think that's the results of good suspension type (double wishbone) and its tuning. Hondas have always been known for making greaat FF cars. All those integra type r's, civic type r's, accord type r's, they are all great track cars even though they are all FF. The bottom line is, FF have lower limitations than other layouts, but if tuned properly, they can be great too.

meowCat

hey no problem.. You've done great work getting the data and share to us. It is highly appreciated!!



Xpditor, ha ha I saw you posting in the Lexus forum. Also I'm sure people at Lexus forum appreciate your words posted here. I think it's a great post. Ya know, I just posted there too, to share my thoughts and what I had to say. Those Lexus guys have class I must say. Hey! you young folks(except iforyou ) here, behave! No trolling toward the lexus guys. Or I'm gonna kick you ass!! (i did not mean in bad way)

JpnSamurai

was scimming through the articles and the big bold words reading "the TL-S is the fastest FWD sports sedan" caught my eyes...

JpnSamurai

a lil more translation on the article about the TL (sorry not perfect translation because I am a lil busy with test prep right now lol)
"The final corner at Willow Springs is a high speed corner where you go in at 4th gear with no braking. The speed range for the final corner at Tsukuba Circuit is no where close to the one at Willow Springs. Even professional American drivers couse-out or crashes when exiting the corner at times. Even at corners like this, I was able to step on the gas with the TL. Seems like the TL never goes under (understeer i think). The nose of the car smoothly shifts towards the inside, it is amazing... As I drive the TL more and more I ask myself "wait was this car a FR(front engine, RWD)?" The performance is unbelievable for a FF."

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

wow thanks JpnSamurai for the translation! Glad to hear what the drift king has to say about the TL-S! I don't know much about Willow Springs, so I can't comment on that. Anyways, please translate more when you have time!!

Meowcat, lol, have I been giving the impression that I'm a anti-lexus or anti-infiniti guy? lol, sorry about that man, but I do respect the IS350 and G35. Afterall, Lexus is still the only Japanese luxury car brand that can go against European brands in terms of prestige and image, and the IS350 is fast even with AT!

Xpditor

I just happened to think: They don't sell the TL in Japan. Or, at least they didn't.

Anyone know if they are in the Japanese market yet?

One of the Club Lexus guys suggested maybe it was a Japanese spec TL.

I reminded that the TL is an American car built in Marysville, Ohio.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well, they used to sell the 2nd gen TL in Japan as Honda Inspire and Honda Saber. But not the 3rd. They have never sold the 3rd gen TL in Japan. In fact, the Honda Inspire in Japan became the American Accord with cyclinder shut off system.

VTEC Racer

Yes, we all have brand loyalty but it doesn't require you to put down another brand. Most of the guys on that forum are nice, but some are just ridiculously biased to the point where they will just be blind to the oblivious. My biggest complaint is with 1SICKLEX. He doesn't let anyone express anything 'anti-Lexus' and if you do it more than a couple times, YOUR BANNED. He constantly puts down Acura and Infiniti. His maturity level is equal to that of a 15 year-old. He gives props a couple times and he tries to hold those couple times up as high-up as he can. Well what about the other hundred times he totally bashed a brand? Lately he has been behaving somewhat. But thats most likely because he got a slap on the wrist. This will last for a couple weeks and then we are back to "Infiniti is just not luxury. Acura is nothing but a tier 3 brand with near-entry luxury cars." When he, as a senior moderator, starts to open his eyes and be a bit more realistic, maybe then I will give the Lexus Forums a better rep. He represents the entire forum and he does a terrible job of it. And it is so funny because I just read his remark to MeowCat on ClubLexus asking him to tell us to calm down lol. I really don't see anything un-true that was said about the Lexus forum by anyone here. He needs to get his panties out of a bunch and grow up. Furthermore, his maturity level became very apparent when he was originally banned from this forum as 1SICKLEX but then made another name (ACURA GT-3 or something like that) and tried to come back. He is KNOWN by mostly EVERYONE in all major car forums for being such a douche. Who else can we say that about? Ridiculous.

Xpditor

Perhaps the thread he started giving props to the TL-S is just what you were looking for.

In any case, we aren't going to do any good for our home forum by getting in a pissing contest with another forum or its mods.

So, I suggest you let it go or just don't visit there.

I know exactly what you're talking about, believe me, but let's let bygones be bygones.

juruki

iTrader: (2)

Please read the Infinity side of the story...
http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1885029

Dave_B

I think the article is biased and Mr. Tsuchiya is a well-known Honda nut swinger, especially when it comes to Integras. With that said, Honda knows how to do FWD, plain and simple. Honestly though, with how good they can do RWD (S2000), I don't know why they keep wasting their time with FWD when it comes to the Acura line. The overall dynamics of FWD when it comes to a performance car are all wrong. With all the technology we have these days, high powered RWD cars are as easy to drive in the snow as FWD. My G35 has no issues driving on 1"-5" snow covered roads, hills, and decently steep driveways. In many situations, it does better than my old Maxima, CRX, and Accord because the G was stability control, traction control, ABS, and brake force distribution.

You guys can't sit there and honestly tell me that the TL wouldn't be a better car and more importantly, a more fun car, with RWD. The overall feel is lightyears different when your front tires are both the drive wheels and steering wheels with 65%+ weight over them. And nothing beats a perfectly executed power slide around a sweeper.

Sprtan-117

wow i cant believe the guys at the infinity forums, they are so fucking close minded they think that their G35's are better than anything, dam people like that piss me off they think that because their car is the fastest in a 1/4 mile they can beat anyone at the fucking track where turns are involved. they cant see the fucking picture as a whole instead they analyze everything and take what is good for them think differently you fucking morons! Think about it this way if you were to race a pro drag funny car in a drag it would fucking kill your fucking infinity but if you add some turns then no matter how fast the pro drag car is on the straightaways it cant turn for SHIT!@# which means that were you lose alot of fucking time in the straight aways your going to make it all back in the turns and eventually pass the dragCar. Everyone keeps on talking about how in the Road&track magazine the IS350 is first and the G35 is 2nd and the TL-S is last yes that is very true but did you guys stop to see at what the fuck they were basing that off of? it was on 1/4 mile times. If you guys actually stopped to read the rest of the article you guys would see that the TL-S takes 1st in slalom and handling. this artcile is not biased the cars were driven on the SAME day by the SAME driver at the SAME time on the SAME FUCKING track. where the hell is the biased part in all this?!@$! stop fucking winning you close minded infinity drivers, go take a look at the lexus forums atleast they understand that 1/4 mile times doesnt mean everything.


SORRY FOR ALL THE BAD LANGUAGE AND TO EVERYONE WHO I OFFENDED I DID NOT DO THIS INTENTIONALLY IT SORT OF JUST CAME OUT AS I WAS TYPING IT I DONT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE BUT SIMPLY STATE MY THOUGHTS.

Xpditor

I think your pre-judgments are showing. You are repeating the usual gripes that people regurgitate when the subject of FWD comes up.

Even when faced with the hard evidence that Acura not only holds its own in direct competition with RWD luxury sport sedans, it is able to out perform them by a considerable margin... with less horsepower and more weight... while surrounding the driver with all the luxury amenities as standard, no-cost, items.... and you seem unwilling to acknowledge that.

The subjective "feel" may be different.. but different doesn't necessarily translate to worse. Because it is subjective, it depends a lot on what a person is used to and what they expect. Similar criticisms were thrown at the rear-engined Porsche (unnatural, unbalanced, doesn't feel right). But, that didn't stop Porsche from rising to the pinnacle of the sports car world.

Your comments are theoretical and well-worn. But, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. And that TL-S is tasting pretty good.

Obviously, Honda/Acura could make the TL FWD or RWD or SH-AWD. It has the money and the wherewithal to do whatever it wants. It makes a conscious CHOICE to keep the TL FWD. You can accuse them of many things, but "stupid" is not one that fits.

As to "nothing beats a perfectly executed power slide around a sweeper". I assume you are talking about the "feel" again because, if you were talking about objective metrics, then you need to review the test again. :wink:

F23A4

Honestly, I do not have a hard time believing that the TL-S is on par with its IS350 and G35 counterparts on a road course. Even dating back to the original 04 TL, it was VERY competitive against its contemporaries.

That said, I do not put much stock in the margin of victory published in that article.

Sprtan, take some Valium. It is just car talk and nothing more.

Dave_B, what one considers 'fun' is VERY subjective.

Sprtan-117

well put


and as for the valium, i just put the order out

drcookie

Some people in the Lexus forum are still in denial !!!

Xpditor

I think I would be too.

meowCat

hey I responded there. Good job, Xpditor.



I *wouldn't be* surprised if the Standard TL MT will be on par with the '07 G35 in that track, or could even outrun it. There is a good amount of weight loss on the Standard MT version as we know.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If I were to call someone biased, Tsuchiya would be the last person on my list. With all of his reputation and fame, I doubt that he would dare to biased on a car even for one bit. The bottom line is, his comments, results are million miles better than anything comes out of C&D or MT journalists - professional race car driver's comments/results vs car journalists', still need to explain more?

Sure enough he was part of the NSX team in the racing world. But if you do more research, you can find he also used to drive the Nissan Skyline GTR in JGTC too, and also don't forget, one of his favourite cars is the AE86 (Toyota Corolla Trueno). Biased to Honda? I think not. He just gives kudos to the cars that are good.

FWD's can be fun to drive due to excellent engineering and it is just like RWD's can be easy to drive due to great technologies.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

By the way, just did a little research, the TL-S in the video has All-Season Tires, Bridgeston Potenza RE030. According the www.acura.com, the high performance tires ($200/4 tires more only btw) are Bridgestone Potenza RE096A.

VTEC Racer

Speaking of tires, according to ClubLexus, now tires is the only reason why the TL beat the other two cars. I guess I forgot how magical those all-season Potenza's are

Xpditor

Yah. They're grasping for straws while gasping for air. It was surprising to everyone.

As I pointed out over there, the G35 comes with the same standard tires -and might have had the performance tire upgrade. But, at the least, the same.

And, the IS350 comes standard with high performance, summer tires.

In all likelihood, the TL-S had the worst tires of the bunch for track use.

Hey! I'm still trying to absorb this myself. Imagine if I had just spent $45,000 for a nice IS350?

Dave_B

I guess it all depends on who you read. There is a road course article with the G35, 335i, Legacy Spec-B, and IS350 and the G35 wins by about 1-second over even the more powerful 335i.

I think "most" true automotive enthusiasts prefer RWD. If FWD is so great, then a lot of performance-focused cars would use it. When it comes to performance, the FWD negatives heavily outweigh the advantages. FWD is great in most of all street situations, but on the track, it's often a different story. With RWD, you can steer the rear with the throttle, the front tires are only there to steer, there's significantly more traction under standing starts and on off-camber turns. Then there's the weight basis. This isn't to say FWD can't "handle" well on paper though. There are lots of FWD cars out there that put up great numbers including the 3rd gen TLs. However, TLs are not remotely in the same league as something like a Mini Cooper. Through a slalom, FWD has the advantage because of the weight basis towards the front. Hell, even the beam axle Sentra SE-Rs and Maximas post stellar times through the slalom, but when it comes times to throwing the weight around in turns, under braking, etc, the FWD setup shows it's inherent weaknesses.

The reason Acura sticks with FWD in the TL is because it's underpinnings are shared with the Accord and portions of other Honda/Acura products. They don't stick with FWD because it's a better performance platform. If that was case, the S2000 would be FWD. As we all know, parts bin sharing greatly reduces costs and that's the bottom line. Nissan's RWD FM platform is shared between the 350Z and Infiniti G/M/FX. In order to build a RWD sedan for the Acura line, Honda would need to develop a very expensive stand alone chassis as the S2000 chassis wasn't developed for the weight of sedan. Honda has admitted to feeling the pressure to develop RWD for their Acura line. The masses now want and expect RWD. Look at BMW, Benz, Infiniti, Lexus, and Chrysler/Dodge (300, Charger, Magnum) to name a few. GM has jumped in head first and will releasing numerous new RWD sedans as will Ford. Before long, Acura will be the only premium make offering FWD and I have a hard time seeing them do that if RWD is what people want. I think the new NSX chassis will most likely give Acura a RWD platform for which will be shared across all lines of Acura including their sedans and SUVs.

When considering my G35, I also looked at TLs, Legacy GTs, and V6 Altimas. All the cars handled very well, but the feel of fwd is so much different from RWD. I've driven mostly FWD cars for nearly 17 years and I owned a 94 Z28 for 3 years in that time period. I've had an Accord, modded CRX Si, and heavily modded Maxima with a ton of suspension/chassis work. None of those cars, including the 04 TL 6MT I test drove hold a candle to the G35, 350Z, and BMW 330s I test drove. The way RWD bites down in a tight sweeper at full throttle is something a FWD will never be capable off. The TL generated lots of grip, but the overall feel of the car was understeer understeer understeer. The BMW and G/Z understeer at 7/10 driving and then become neutral. The G and non-Track Zs can easily be provoked into power and lift-throttle oversteer which is a blast for some and scary for most. I think oversteer is a blast, but I guess for some, understeer is fun?