TL Performance in Snow??
#161
Originally Posted by VT06TL
Not sure if you ever got a straight answer on this or not. But the temperature dropped to the 20's here in Vermont and we got over an inch of snow. My 06 TL with the all seasons did get me where I needed to go but the traction control light was blicking like crazy and I spun alot, if your in New Hampshire you will need snow tires. I am getting mine Wednesday.
(1) "YAW" -- in other words the car wound up pointed in a different direction than you wanted?
-OR-
(2) You were spinning your wheels trying to get going from a standing start?
I'd hope the VSA would prevent (1) and the TC would prevent (2).
But like a lot of things, you only find out IF they REALLY work when you use them in the real world. (Like a parachute, if they don't work you usually find out too late! )
Since it hasn't snowed in Jersey yet, I haven't had a chance to see how my 06 will do so I appreciate your comments.
#162
Originally Posted by evantec
By spun a lot, do you mean:
(1) "YAW" -- in other words the car wound up pointed in a different direction than you wanted?
-OR-
(2) You were spinning your wheels trying to get going from a standing start?
I'd hope the VSA would prevent (1) and the TC would prevent (2).
But like a lot of things, you only find out IF they REALLY work when you use them in the real world. (Like a parachute, if they don't work you usually find out too late! )
Since it hasn't snowed in Jersey yet, I haven't had a chance to see how my 06 will do so I appreciate your comments.
(1) "YAW" -- in other words the car wound up pointed in a different direction than you wanted?
-OR-
(2) You were spinning your wheels trying to get going from a standing start?
I'd hope the VSA would prevent (1) and the TC would prevent (2).
But like a lot of things, you only find out IF they REALLY work when you use them in the real world. (Like a parachute, if they don't work you usually find out too late! )
Since it hasn't snowed in Jersey yet, I haven't had a chance to see how my 06 will do so I appreciate your comments.
#163
RAR
Originally Posted by VT06TL
Thanks, The VSA and traction control worked fine. The width and lack of bite by my all season Michelin did not give me the confidence I was looking for so with what I invested into the car I am getting snows. I will be interested in what you think when you do get some snow.
Come spring, I'll probably pick up some Bridgestone pole positions or Perrelli's when I buy new rims.
#164
Originally Posted by leedogg
I was also unsatisfied with the 'bite' of my stock Michelin's. Had them spin out on me a couple times on starts and also lost traction in wet conditions. Just picked up some Continental ContiExtremeContacts and I've been pretty happy with them so far. Good grip, sufficiently quiet, and I've heard good stuff about them in the snow. Short of pure snow tires (blizaks), these are the best all season tires for the snow imo.
Come spring, I'll probably pick up some Bridgestone pole positions or Perrelli's when I buy new rims.
Come spring, I'll probably pick up some Bridgestone pole positions or Perrelli's when I buy new rims.
#165
Drifting
Originally Posted by ubnpast
Please dont post if you have never driven an all wheel drive car.
Originally Posted by ubnpast
Think of it as drifting, drifting is hard to control if you're not experienced in doing it, makes sure you have a lot of run off room as a beginner (such as yourself).
Originally Posted by ubnpast
When out of shape in an awd car, you better keep your foot in it because it will always pull out.
Originally Posted by ubnpast
Is a motor cycle awd? NO, you cant compare apples to oranges...
Besides, driving in the snow is not the same as drifting. Drifting is (debatable by some) about maximizing exit speed from a turn. This isn't the main goal when driving in the snow.
There are so many things that can go wrong when trying to drift. (Just as you said yourself). So why would you recommend somebody try this in the snow?
Originally Posted by ubnpast
Awd axles are always locked when slippage is detected
Originally Posted by ubnpast
First off you must know how awd works in order for the tires to do thier job.
#166
Drifting
Originally Posted by VT06TL
Thanks, The VSA and traction control worked fine. The width and lack of bite by my all season Michelin did not give me the confidence I was looking for so with what I invested into the car I am getting snows. I will be interested in what you think when you do get some snow.
#167
Originally Posted by trancemission
Hey guys from this point forward if you cant post without personal attacks dont post.
First warning...
First warning...
#168
This is not being directed towards anyone personally, but so everyone can read about AWD drifting (since it was brought up).
Although AWD's purpose is to prevent cars from losing traction, you can really use it to your advantage to keep the wheels spinning. If you recall the "traction circle" that you learned in performance-driving kindergarden, you'll remember that the East and West directions represent steering right and left and the North and South directions represent acceleration and braking (respectively). Now, to make a car lose traction, the load on the tires must exceed their ability in any one of those directions or as a combination of two (or more, but that's a bit more advanced). Let's consider 2 cars with the same specifications, car A having RWD and car B having AWD. When accelerating from a stand-still, car A will be sending 100% of the power to the rear wheels only. Granted that car A has the ability to load the tires beyond their capacity, it will break the traction circle and spin the rear wheels. If car B were to send 100% of its power to the driveline, it would momentarily go 100% to the front wheels (in the TSi's case) and break the traction circle causing wheel slipage. The slip sensor will detect this and tell the transmission to take up to 50% from the front and send it to the rear. When it does this, the load on the front tires will move to inside the traction circle and the rear wheels' traction circle will look exactly like the front's (ignoring weight and transfer). Simple, right?
Now imagine when a car is going around a turn and power is being applied while there is a constant latteral load on the traction circles of all tires on both cars, during a left turn for example (meaning that the work done on the tires is along the East-West line on the left side). While cornering at half of the capacity of the tires, car A can apply enough power to exceed the traction circle of the rear wheels (the work done by the tires is outside of the traction circle on the upper left side). Meanwhile, the front tires will stay at their half-capacity of lateral load without ever knowing what is happening to the rears. From my unserstanding, once a driver counter steers, the direction of lateral load on the front tires is reversed (to the right in a left-turn drift) and they are now working to prevent the car from going off of the track to the left - there's a split second in a feint where the rear is sliding and the fronts are pointed straight just after the body roll has passed neutral. In our left turn, if the driver does a power-over and applies just enough power for the rears to break traction, he can keep the work asked of the tires just beyond the traction circle and maintain control of it, but if he applies too much power the tires will be overwhelmed and the driver will lose control -- this is why higher-powered drift cars need to have the power modulated in order to keep control and keep from spinning while lower power cars can be floored and stay in control.
All-Wheel Drifting techniques require knowledge of vehicle dynamics, your drivetrain, your AWD system, your traction circle (the best drivers are subliminally imagining all 4 traction circles of all 4 wheels all at the same time all the time). I find that the majority of the time all wheel drifting is spent trying to find ways to "trick" the computer into giving more power to the rear wheels than they can handle. Rocking the steering wheel between neutral and counter-steered one direction is a pretty good way to keep constant load on the outside tires and to find the best steering angle.
Now imagine when a car is going around a turn and power is being applied while there is a constant latteral load on the traction circles of all tires on both cars, during a left turn for example (meaning that the work done on the tires is along the East-West line on the left side). While cornering at half of the capacity of the tires, car A can apply enough power to exceed the traction circle of the rear wheels (the work done by the tires is outside of the traction circle on the upper left side). Meanwhile, the front tires will stay at their half-capacity of lateral load without ever knowing what is happening to the rears. From my unserstanding, once a driver counter steers, the direction of lateral load on the front tires is reversed (to the right in a left-turn drift) and they are now working to prevent the car from going off of the track to the left - there's a split second in a feint where the rear is sliding and the fronts are pointed straight just after the body roll has passed neutral. In our left turn, if the driver does a power-over and applies just enough power for the rears to break traction, he can keep the work asked of the tires just beyond the traction circle and maintain control of it, but if he applies too much power the tires will be overwhelmed and the driver will lose control -- this is why higher-powered drift cars need to have the power modulated in order to keep control and keep from spinning while lower power cars can be floored and stay in control.
All-Wheel Drifting techniques require knowledge of vehicle dynamics, your drivetrain, your AWD system, your traction circle (the best drivers are subliminally imagining all 4 traction circles of all 4 wheels all at the same time all the time). I find that the majority of the time all wheel drifting is spent trying to find ways to "trick" the computer into giving more power to the rear wheels than they can handle. Rocking the steering wheel between neutral and counter-steered one direction is a pretty good way to keep constant load on the outside tires and to find the best steering angle.
#169
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Originally Posted by avs007
The stock Michelin's on the TL are pretty bad tho... I remember the last time I looked at the ratings on Tirerack, the Pilot MX tires ranked near the bottom in their category.
Some people put snow tires on because they think it'll allow them to drive as if it's summer. No tire or technology can eliminate stupidity, I suppose.
#170
Drifting
Originally Posted by mu1980
The Goodyear Eagle RS-A's on my TL were rated poorly for snow traction too.. and yet I haven't noticed them being any worse than all of the other tires I've had on my cars over the years.
Some people put snow tires on because they think it'll allow them to drive as if it's summer. No tire or technology can eliminate stupidity, I suppose.
Some people put snow tires on because they think it'll allow them to drive as if it's summer. No tire or technology can eliminate stupidity, I suppose.
My other car came with Eagle RS-A, and I could totally tell the difference.
The RS-A is just a bad tire all around. They squeel like crazy in the dry, hydroplane very easily, and mediocre for snow traction.
I replaced them with Yokohama AVS db tires. Much quieter, and MUCH MUCH better dry/wet traction. They were actually noticeably harder to spin from a stop. Snow traction was a wash. It wasn't until I switched to the Continental ContiExtremes, that I noticed improved snow traction, as when I did a few test panic stops in the snow, the ABS didn't even engage with the contis.
#171
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Originally Posted by avs007
What other tires did you try? (Just curious).
My other car came with Eagle RS-A, and I could totally tell the difference.
The RS-A is just a bad tire all around. They squeel like crazy in the dry, hydroplane very easily, and mediocre for snow traction.
I replaced them with Yokohama AVS db tires. Much quieter, and MUCH MUCH better dry/wet traction. They were actually noticeably harder to spin from a stop. Snow traction was a wash. It wasn't until I switched to the Continental ContiExtremes, that I noticed improved snow traction, as when I did a few test panic stops in the snow, the ABS didn't even engage with the contis.
My other car came with Eagle RS-A, and I could totally tell the difference.
The RS-A is just a bad tire all around. They squeel like crazy in the dry, hydroplane very easily, and mediocre for snow traction.
I replaced them with Yokohama AVS db tires. Much quieter, and MUCH MUCH better dry/wet traction. They were actually noticeably harder to spin from a stop. Snow traction was a wash. It wasn't until I switched to the Continental ContiExtremes, that I noticed improved snow traction, as when I did a few test panic stops in the snow, the ABS didn't even engage with the contis.
On other cars, though, I've had Michelin Energy MXV4 S8's, Yokohama Avid T4's, General Ameri-G4S (I didn't but those.. they came with the car), Kumho Solus KH16's, Goodyear Regatta 2's, and Michelin Pilot XGT H4's.
Obviously our driving styles are different, because I've never had starting/stopping trouble to the point where the tire made any difference. My commute wasn't always this short, either. Almost 2 years ago I was driving 30 minutes one way to get to work.. a round trip every day of about 50 miles, the primary road type being winding rural highway (55mph).
In the dry, I've never noticed squeeling with these tires, either. Haven't yet had them in situations where hydroplaning is a possibility, so I can't speak to that.
Given how they've done in the winter here so far.. and on dry pavement.. I'm gonna keep these tires until they need replacing.
#172
Drifting
Originally Posted by mu1980
On the TL, none. I just bought the TL right before Thanksgiving and that's what came with it--a new set of Eagle RS-A's.
Originally Posted by mu1980
On other cars, though, I've had Michelin Energy MXV4
#173
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Oh, I'm sure the TL doesn't come with RS-A's new. My TL is a 2005 with 26K miles on it. The dealer put the RS-A's on as a replacement for the OEM tires.
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