SergeyM

Are other manufacturers going to re-rate their cars or it was just a TL thing? I know that in Europe BMWs get higher power numbers than in US, e.g. the previous generation BMW 330 was rated at 231 bhp in Europe and 225 bhp in the US. 4.4 liter V8 is rated at 333bhp in Europe and only 325 bhp in US and so on.

Steel

Well you dont have to worry all the G35's were already SAE Net so they stay 280 sedan and 298 coupe.

Scam, thanks Acura.

fast-tl

The new standard is a REVISION of SAE NET; no word on whether Nissan will adopt this new standard and see a revision of its numbers.
To quote an A-TL member:

"Steel
Registered User




Post #275


Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 211 For the 2006 model year, all Acura horsepower and torque specifications have been updated to reflect revised Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1349 (Rev 8/04) net calculations that went into effect in January of 2005. These new calculations reflect a number of significant changes in the way horsepower and torque are measured and may cause SAE net horsepower and torque totals published in 2006 media materials to differ from the figures published in previous years. To avoid confusion, all 2006 Acura press materials will specify “SAE net (Rev 8/04”) after all horsepower and torque figures to denote adherence to the new standards. "

BloodFart

Dude, you don't even know what you're talking about. SAE net has been in use for 2-3 decades now.

The new system is a revision of the net rating system and is completely voluntary, and Nissan/Infiniti has not adopted it yet. That's why the numbers haven't changed on the G35 from '05 and '06. There is no way in hell that Infiniti would've been able to use the new system for their '05 model back in '04, because it wasn't even available at the time.

So quit bitching. Scam, my ass. You don't even have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about.

Actuary

So this new measure favors big engine american cars? So vette gets more and stang gets more?

ayethetiense

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

You cry too much.

mickey3c

I know all most of you guys think HP is always king. The setup on the acura is pretty dam good. Yup, as much as I slam them, I think the numbers reflect this. Trouble is HP sells cars... Acura's 2 G experience with the S motor and 5AT was not good and they have been scambling to fix that. They changed the power profile of the engine and all and made tranny changes and TSBs.

Did they decide to change the cam in the 3G motor and up the compression and claim they got 270 hp when it was really 258? If so what was in in the 260 version 248?... No matter.

The interesting thing is that the VQ 3.5 was introduced in the maxima and has gone from 255 - 298 depending on application (model, brand, etc.). I would expect that acura would be able to wring some more power out of the 3.2, but for how long without bumping the displacement. With fuel costs as they are, they might be doing the wise thing and as long as the performance numbers are impressive with a smaller displacement, they can hold their own in the market.

It would be wise to address some quality issues and keep making a car that can get about 30+ mpg... What's next maybe a hybrid TL... I can see it now ... you get a 280 HP Hybrid tl that gets like 35 highway and 39 city.

Who would buy that!!!

DMZ

I WOULD!! My TL mileage sucks!

I get about 15 city, and only 25 avg on a highway trip last weekend going 75-80 MPH with the A/C on about ˝ the time. And I do not have a lead foot. Best highway mileage I've ever gotten in the 15 months I own this car has been 27-28. In fact, I'd probably get the 5AT. From posts throughout this forum, they seem to get better highway mileage .
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leeherman

This horsepower restating doesn't bother me, except for the "bragging rights" of the higher number. I was pleased with the performance of my car before the numbers were adjusted, and nothing has changed. My car performs EXACTLY the same today.

I will be curious to hear how the TL's competitors numbers fare *if* they adopt the new standard. Since Toyota has adopted the new standard, we should see some new numbers for the ES, IS, and GS (the TL's main Lexus competition).

Regards,

mp3car

hp numbers, especialyl when you're talking 5-10hp, are all for bragging rights anyhow...

Just compare a 270hp TL and a 265HP Maxima, find stock dyno graphs, rescale them and lay them on top of each other.... the maxima has 10-20-hp almost all the way up until the TL gets to 5800 or something like that.... and the alternate testing method... i think i read it only made a difference on the vette of ~5hp or something.

cM3go

Its not an HP change, the car always had this HP, its just measured different, its more realistic. Anyone who has seen a dyno of a TL could have figured the HP is actually lower than the stated HP. What did you lose from a visual standpoint, 12 HP? You probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Steel

My issue isnt that suddenly the car makes less power. It's that ACURA sold us cars at 270 hp that NEVER dyno'd supporting that number, and now SUDDENLY a new adoption of a newer method for horsepower estimating is used and, WALA, we dont make 270 hp. Not a surprise but it is a scam. The AUTO TL HAS NEVER made 270 hp on any scale.

massr1

whoa get your facts straight. the transmission on a car does not determine how much horsepower it has. the manual may be quicker but its the same engine and therefore produces the same amount of power. this is just a new method of rating power, track times will be the same, acceleration will feel the same. its like celsius and farenheit as someone else put it, if you come to canada and see that the emperature today is 32`celcius, your not gonna say "thats cold", unless your that ignorant

Steel

Are you fucking kidding me? How about you dont post if you dont know what you are talking about.


A manual transmission car will ALWAYS dyno higher than an AUTO transmission, in the same car, bone stock. That means that MORE of the flywheel horsepower gets to the ground.

The Auto TL dyno's supporting a 255ish horsepower claim, not 270 like acura talks about. It's a FUCKING SCAM.

Slava

What does the new G35 dyno at?

And can we expect the new Inifiti/Nissan VQ35 numbers for all their cars to also take a 10-15hp dive if/when they use the new SAE standard?

OnefastTL448

iTrader: (1)

Wow is this topic going to go on, Its intresting to see how this turns out. I understand nothing changes but it just seems like your bought somehting that was not as described. Still love the car and if everybody has to take these hits than thats fine. Just goes to show you how much more accurate BMW numbers are, I guess the M3 is really a machine. 330HP via BMW numbers

wizlb

Where did you read about the HP being restated.

neffster

Who cares about the SAE Standard? This is applied to BHP, not WHP.

The 2005 G35 coupe 6MT's bone stock dyno peak is at 230-235 rwhp on a dynojet with SAE correction being used. This is with stock 19" wheels and stock everything!

This number means nothing, but the question was asked. You have to compare the area under the curve between 2 cars to see where power is being made. Don't forget to factor in the inconsistancies with: the conditions the cars are in, # of miles on each engine, type of tires on each car, type of gasoline in each car, amount of oil life, air filter cleanliness, tire temps, tread amounts, positioning of the cars on the dyno........ (get where I'm going with this?)

BTW, I'd be more afraid of the 2003 and 2004 6MT coupes since side by side dynos show a clear advantage in rwhp and torque up until about 5800 rpms. Then the newer 2005's take over hp and tq wise.

Also, since I'm not a TL owner, I can only guess that a FWD 2005 6MT TL doesn't dyno 255 fwhp (that's funny just typing it...fwhp). That would mean that you have much less than 10% paracitic losses through the entire drivetrain and I'm not buying that argument.

fast-tl

bhp is how cars are advertised, and thus compared, for the buying public. So, to answer yor query, the public, including ME, cares. The RL loses 10% according to its old claim of 300hp. This explains why performance wasn't as sprightly as expected. No one advertises wheel hp because it's a lower number. MFr's have bought back cars when it was revealed their ratings weren't accurate, like the Mustang (from 225 to 205) and the RX-8. So, it makes a difference.

massr1

THE ENGINES ARE TESTED AT THE CRANK FOR HORSEPOWER. 270 IS AT THE CRANK NOT AT THE WHEELS. SO IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT TRANNY YOU HAVE. MANUFACTURERS DONT DYNO CARS AT THE WHEELS. THEY DYNO THE ENGINE ALONE.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

You are a tool. Cars are not advertised with their wheel horsepower ratings. They are advertised with what they make at the crank. 270 horsepower is what both the automatic and manual transmission cars make prior to the new standard.
I believe the new standard measures horsepower off an accessory pulley.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

The car still makes 270 horsepower when using the old method.

The new method rates the car at 258. If this method even existed back when the 3rd Gen was introduced it would have been advertised at 258.

You guys are reading into this too much. This isn't like the RX-8 fiasco where the car actually didn't make what it claimed.

RedSoxGuy

But it is horseshit... When someone does research before buying a $35,000 car and Acura says the car has 270 horse power, thats what I expect.. Not 258, not 269.. 270hp!... I didn't buy this car solely for the horsepower, but the number 270 was very attractive to me... All of you dogging on people who are pissed about this need to shut the fuck up.. People have a right to be upset about this, its the principal...

massr1

you have unfortunately been pulled in by manufacturers' hp marketing technique. hp is just a measurement and is only 1 part of the performance of a car. many people think hp is everything. the car performs the same way no matter if its 270 hp or 258 hp sae. so why does that bother you so much? and its not even a big difference even if u could notice it, which you cant because its the same thing

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Same motor, same amount of power but measured with a different ruler.

It's like saying 1 yard doesn't equal 3 feet.

IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT, MORE STANDARD AND EQUAL WAY OF MEASURING HORSEPOWER!

RedSoxGuy

You don't gotta keep explaining it.. I understand clearly.. Since this more standard rating system has been out for a while... Why did it take till now to find this out? You don't think Acura knew about the engine having 258 hp and still advertising the car as having 270 hp... Come on...

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

It's only been around for a few months. Chevy was the first to use it on the new Z06 and Acura was the second company to step-up and use it. They are ahead of the game.

Slava

In Motortrend there is an interesting article that basically says that the new SAE standard is more accurate in the sense that it doesn't allow the manufacturer to "cheat" when claiming HP numbers. The jist of the article is that any company that was honest originally will not see a drop in HP numbers after adopting a new standard (a major part of which is an independent observer)

My understanding from reading the article is that any company that has a sudden drop in HP can be implicated as cheaters. I wonder how Acura will spin the decreasead TL numbers when they release them officially. They can open themselves to lawsuits if it can be proven that they cheated when they overstated their HP numbers.

I think this story will explode in the next month or two...

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Then the majority of the automakers are "cheaters." At least Acura volunteered to adopt the new standard; and very early on at that. Daimler Chrysler refuses to adopt the new standard.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Also, we're talking about a drop is horsepower ratings equalling less than 5%. Does it really matter THAT much?

RedSoxGuy

Precisely... This is my point exactly... I guarentee there will be lawsuits over this....

massr1

no offense but americans sue everyone for anything. take that guy on this forum who is trying to make a lawsuit against acura because his navi told him to turn into a guard rail, and because he's such an idiot he almost did it. what a load of bullshit. now people suing for minimal horsepower loses that are barely noticeable. and for anyone that says that much of a difference would change their buying decision is a complete idiot

ndx2

Yup, I read that, too. But I think they used the word "cheat" for the lack of a better word. It just means the last SAE net method was outdated, giving car companies a few loopholes... people have been doing that everywhere - accounting, pro racing, to name a couple major ones.

I can't even imagine how many of you will bitch if/when EPA chooses to revise their method of calculating the MPG and the numbers drop.

I've seen some new Lexus (LS, GX, RX) and the Ranger Rover's numbers, they also went down. Lawsuits? Sure, just don't be stupid enough to pay the lawyer upfront.

It'll be just depressing if this story ever explodes. Media will do its part and explain the revision, and it shouldn't be an issue. This sort of change has happened before... some of those muscle cars back in the day with claimed 400+, using then-current method, only produce 150~ when standardized using J1349.

wizlb

Are you saying the 6 speed manual only has 258HP.
The only reason I brought this car was because of the HP.
I do love this look but without the HP I would hae]ve stay with my Truck and maybe traded that in for a BMW 330i.

Are all cars in Japan rated incorrectly, and if so....what do we call that in AMERICA????????????????

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Did you not read the entire thread before you posted!?!?! Here's the best analogy I have heard.

It's the same measurment, just a different ruler.

36 inches = 1 yard. Same thing, just a different scale! As soon as all auto companies adopt this new system you'll see new numbers (higher and lower) all across the board. Acura is AHEAD of the game here in being one of the first companies to do so.

SergeyM

First it is not a different ruler. It is a more precise ruler that leaves lees room for cheating. Second why would a company switch to a ruler that is less favorable for its products? They probably knew that they'd cheated and going to be caught and decided to come out before it happens.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Ok so it's not a different ruler, but it IS a more precise ruler... I'm still trying to figure out how that's possible. How can a means of measurement not be different, yet be more precise at the same time?

And you're absolutely right this is all a huge Acura conspiracy! And Chevy intentionally underratted the new C6 Z06 prior to calculating it's horsepower with the new method because higher horsepower numbers wouldn't have helped sell it! (went from 500bhp to 505bhp).

Give me a break Go sue Acura, tell me how that goes for ya.

The new method allows for less loopholes during the rating. A third party indiviual representing the SAE is present during the rating, etc, etc, etc. The previous standard left a lot up to the interpretation of those performing the tests.

As long as they say what method they are using to calculate horsepower how is it cheating? Hell Ford could come up with their own method of calculating horsepower that doubles what the new SAE method would produce. As long as they say what method they used, it isn't "cheating" or false advertising.

Again... 36" = 3' = 1 yard

fast-tl

More precise=different than before. So yes, it IS a different ruler if the measurement (and results) are different. You can measure in inches or mm, but milimeters will be more precise since the unit is smaller. Different ruler.

The engine makes the same amount of power as it did since 2004, but using a different ruler the results are now different than before.

Gadgets

and that's all that matters.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)