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TL fishtails under full occupancy....Yes fishtailing on FWD
Our TL has strange rear suspension behavior. When it is
- loaded with passengers (in my case, I had 5 people)
- also loaded trunk (in my case, groceries)
- on any pavement less than dry (in my case, lightly snow covered straightway with salt applicated)
the car fishtails. Yes you read that right, car FISHTAILS.
I was coming back from groceries and I noticed rear wheel started fishtailing as speed picked up. I was on straight way, perfect pavement with lightly snow covered and salt applid road. I had to slow down because it almost felt I was gonna be thrown out of course. Fishtailing did not stop until I fell all the way around to 20MPH. I'm not saying it's like crown victoria fishtailing on snow covered road but it is definintely there. I asked passengers if they could feel it and only one out of four said a little. I definitely felt rear end of the car going left to right - even at low speeds and every other car is going faster than I am.
I saw someone reported this happend before even on a dry road with full occupancy in the car. I did not exceed weight limit, I do have proper alignment, I do have tire inflated properly and all that.
I don't drive with full car of people that much so I'm not overly concerend but it's something to keep in mind.
I had my GF in the front seat, and 3 of her friends in the back...nothing really in the trunk, and the car was fishtailing like CRAZY. They're all about 110lbs...
FWIW: Probably not fishtailing as most people understand the term. More likely it is the body "rocking" on the suspension while the tires are still firmly tied to the ground. Only time I came close to that feeling was the first day when I was out taking my 2003 TL-S for a test drive prior to purchasing. I had been driving a supercharged Mazda Millenia fwd for 3 years but the power torque of this TL is something else! Turned a corner and gunned it and was almost able to read my rear licence plate as it passed me!! JC
I recently had five people in the car going downtown with a trunk full of magazines. The roads were greasy as it had lightly snowed earlier. I experienced no fishtailing whatsoever and wasn't driving slowly either, but in my normal fashion. I think maybe it could be your tires that caused you to fishtail.
Wandering is probably the more appropriate term than fishtailing, if you're describing what I think you are.
Have you had the rear suspension bump stop TSB performed on the car? Under load, the suspension geometry changes. With that much weight, the toe on the rear wheels probably changed and made the rear end wander a bit.
i agree with MTVtec, you should get a set of good name all season tires. i have continental contiextremesports on mine, and i never NEVER slid regardless of weather. "You can't run a marathon without good sneakers." the conti's went for about 150 per tire, perform great always, but to bad they discontinued them....
Our TL has strange rear suspension behavior. When it is
- loaded with passengers (in my case, I had 5 people)
- also loaded trunk (in my case, groceries)
- on any pavement less than dry (in my case, lightly snow covered straightway with salt applicated)
the car fishtails. Yes you read that right, car FISHTAILS.
I was coming back from groceries and I noticed rear wheel started fishtailing as speed picked up. I was on straight way, perfect pavement with lightly snow covered and salt applid road. I had to slow down because it almost felt I was gonna be thrown out of course. Fishtailing did not stop until I fell all the way around to 20MPH. I'm not saying it's like crown victoria fishtailing on snow covered road but it is definintely there. I asked passengers if they could feel it and only one out of four said a little. I definitely felt rear end of the car going left to right - even at low speeds and every other car is going faster than I am.
I saw someone reported this happend before even on a dry road with full occupancy in the car. I did not exceed weight limit, I do have proper alignment, I do have tire inflated properly and all that.
I don't drive with full car of people that much so I'm not overly concerend but it's something to keep in mind.
On my previous TL (04 with Bridgestone tires) I had experienced exactly the same thing you described, but I only had 3 people besides me and nothing in the trunk. On my 06 TL I have not noticed it yet, but I did not really have a chance to drive someone in the back
i agree with MTVtec, you should get a set of good name all season tires. i have continental contiextremesports on mine, and i never NEVER slid regardless of weather. "You can't run a marathon without good sneakers." the conti's went for about 150 per tire, perform great always, but to bad they discontinued them....
I have Conti's! and yes rear wanders, it does not actually noticebly kicks left to right.
It's downright scary... other cars.. focus,civic and all others they go much faster than I do. It only happens when I have people in my car and regardless if I'm accelerating or decelerating..
I know i haven't exceed limit cuz passenger weight combined does not even com close to factory #. those are skinny people in my car. Also I had not that heavy load in trunk. I can gaurantee I was under that limit.
Same night, when I drove home on the same road back just by myself, I did not notice this at all. and yet when I had 5 people, I was going 20MPH on 50MPH road.
I know i haven't exceed limit cuz passenger weight combined does not even com close to factory #. those are skinny people in my car. Also I had not that heavy load in trunk. I can gaurantee I was under that limit.
Same night, when I drove home on the same road back just by myself, I did not notice this at all. and yet when I had 5 people, I was going 20MPH on 50MPH road.
Try bringing it back to Acura and complain to them and get them to do an alignment job. That might help.
maybe this is a lingering effect of that curb you hit awhile back, i have never noticed this in mine with 4 fattys in it, but i also have full time snows on right now so that could be the difference right there.
The TL rear suspension is a 5-link independent system with struts and coil springs. It mounts to a steel subframe to improve road isolation and provide a quiet interior. The rear suspension geometry adds "toe-in" when the suspension is compressed, improving handling stability over bumps and during hard cornering and braking.
... So toe-in is added when the suspension is compressed, either when going over bumps or when even when the car has additional weight in it. This can definitely make the rear of the car feel squirmy if there is too much toe-in.
Oh this has happened to me when I had the EL42's. I was on the freeway, caught in a snow storm, and anything above 40 MPH ~, the tail would lose traction and start wobbling side to side. The front tires weren't doing too much better and the VSA would kick in full time above similar speeds... I had my hazards on, trying to make it to the next exit while getting passed by semi trucks and other cars doing 70, 80.
At the next exit, I checked the tire pressure, which were actually quite uneven and low (possibly from altitude change)... But the main issue was that the EL42's were somewhat worn down, but most importantly, the rear tires were worn very unevenly (which is a known issue).
Only thing is, I didn't have any passengers at that time, and the load in the trunk was pretty light.
On my 06 I ride on michellin alpin pa2 snow tires in the winter on some pretty lousy highways (60 to 80 mph) and I haven't had any issues like this at all.
and I also noticed this behavior before I had the curb incident.
From everything I have read from day one back in Dec 03, the 3G TL has some serious geometry issues with the rear suspension under load. My experience tells me that what Acura did to facilitate handling basically made the car unstable on slick surfaces.
I had an early 70s Datsun with independent rear suspension that had the same issue. Was literally unsafe to drive on icy roads with 4 people in the car.
Fishtailing is actually a very good description of what is taking place. What my old Datsun as well as the TL does is: while loaded and on slick surfaces the rear tires will tend to pull or push the car from side to side. The wheel with the better traction will shove or pull the vehicle (less noticeable). If both wheels are equally sliding say on ice,, the wheels will actually, though rolling, be sliding given the poor geometry (same reason folks get extreme rear tire wear when loaded). On ice, any motion or instance would cause the rear-end to fishtail around as if you just applied the parking brake...
No questions in my mind on whats going on here...
The rear rubber suspension "stops" TSB? was Acura's fix for this problem. IE - to lessen the travel and lessen the geometry error. Not really a fix but a band-aid...
From everything I have read from day one back in Dec 03, the 3G TL has some serious geometry issues with the rear suspension under load. My experience tells me that what Acura did to facilitate handling basically made the car unstable on slick surfaces.
I had an early 70s Datsun with independent rear suspension that had the same issue. Was literally unsafe to drive on icy roads with 4 people in the car.
Fishtailing is actually a very good description of what is taking place. What my old Datsun as well as the TL does is: while loaded and on slick surfaces the rear tires will tend to pull or push the car from side to side. The wheel with the better traction will shove or pull the vehicle (less noticeable). If both wheels are equally sliding say on ice,, the wheels will actually, though rolling, be sliding given the poor geometry (same reason folks get extreme rear tire wear when loaded). On ice, any motion or instance would cause the rear-end to fishtail around as if you just applied the parking brake...
No questions in my mind on whats going on here...
The rear rubber suspension "stops" TSB? was Acura's fix for this problem. IE - to lessen the travel and lessen the geometry error. Not really a fix but a band-aid...
It's too bad we still hear of this issue
Drive safe
Well said.
After I installed the ASPEC suspension on my car, an Acura service department could not get the rear alignment in spec for both camber and toe. After 10,000 miles my rear tires were toast. When I complained, the service department maintained that I had some bent rear suspension components, however, they could not produce any damaged components.
When I had a heart to heart with the district service rep he agreed to install, at Acura's cost, an Ingall's rear camber kit. He also contacted Acura engineering and they recommended that the rear toe be set to 0.0 degrees with the standard rear camber setting. When they performed the alignment, we experimented by having the car loaded with four 75kg sandbags to load the suspension a bit.
Fast forward 35,000 miles later and I can happily report that a) the car handles great whether the car has just the driver or a full load in it, b) there has been NO abnormal tire wear. I'd say the Toyo Proxes 4's on the car can go for another 15,000 miles easy for a total of 50,000 miles on the set!
I've related these experiences before on the forum and indirectly got feedback from Mr. Heeltoe that no camber kit is necessary on our cars even if it is lowered several inches. All I can say is the camber kit works for me and my ASPEC suspension (1 inch drop). It's a relatively cheap fix (free for me!) and allows full adjustability of the rear suspension to get alignment just right while maximizing tire life.
Trying to find out if anyone have an answer for 04 acura tl fishtailing or kicking to left or right with 3 people sitting in rear.I had my car aligned by 2 different shops and changed tires.My rear tires get burned out fast.I don't race cars or anything.I drive the car as a daily driver.Whenever I put my three kids in the back, it becomes downright scary if I'm going over 40 or 50 and hit even a small bump I have almost lost control a few times.I never have replaced or put on new bump stops, I bought the car used.Would bump stops fix the problem.I don't want to lower my car , I want to roll factory.IS IT POSSIBLE.DO anyone have a straight answer to this problem.
I fishtail regularly in bad weather, mostly winter(go figure).
Never had an issue other than shallow cornering at around 60mph; tires started screeching.
It is possible. Having the car fully loaded increases camber and changes your contact patch and the weight on the rear of the car especially behind the rear axle can cause the vehicle to loose mechanical keying to the road. Meaning your tires don't grip as well, you have more sidewall flex because the tire pressure is lower and the vehicle seems to oversteer.
Acura suggest 0.08 degrees of toe in on the rear to improve turn in so that gets exacerbated when the suspension is used.
This is exactly why when people say they want to load their car to improve traction, they are screwing up their handling. Loose the weight in the trunk to get better handling and your car will not be twitchy or during your next alignment get the toe to zero or increase toe out. The car will corner aggressively but at the same time when the suspension is compressed it will settle a lot better.
Last edited by d1sturb3d119; 10-28-2014 at 01:24 PM.
Trying to find out if anyone have an answer for 04 acura tl fishtailing or kicking to left or right with 3 people sitting in rear.I had my car aligned by 2 different shops and changed tires.My rear tires get burned out fast.I don't race cars or anything.I drive the car as a daily driver.Whenever I put my three kids in the back, it becomes downright scary if I'm going over 40 or 50 and hit even a small bump I have almost lost control a few times.I never have replaced or put on new bump stops, I bought the car used.Would bump stops fix the problem.I don't want to lower my car , I want to roll factory.IS IT POSSIBLE.DO anyone have a straight answer to this problem.
your alignment is out of whack. that is the straight answer.
it could be out of whack for several different reasons.
But we'll need to see those previous alignment sheets to see the specs that they tried to align too.
also, when you align with empty car, the specs change once its fully loaded with kids
also, when you align with empty car, the specs change once its fully loaded with kids
Yeah that's the biggest part. If you're driving with a certain amount of weight in your car at any point in time make sure you alignment is done with that weight. Otherwise loose the wight and get another alignment and be aware your handling will change with loading.
Yeah that's the biggest part. If you're driving with a certain amount of weight in your car at any point in time make sure you alignment is done with that weight. Otherwise loose the wight and get another alignment and be aware your handling will change with loading.
I only added that part because I saw where you were headed with your post!
...Acura suggest 0.08 degrees of toe in on the rear to improve turn in so that gets exacerbated when the suspension is used....
Huh? Source?
OP, our cars sit at high negative camber when unloaded. When you load it, the rear suspension goes even more negative and well outside of spec. The high negative camber likely contributes to the handling issue your are experiencing. This also totally FUBARs your toe settings which in turn shreds your tires. If you drive around loaded most of the time, I'd get some SPC camber arms installed and then have your alignment shop set your camber at -1.0 to -0.9 when loaded (put weights or bags of sand, etc. in the trunk and back seat).
The SPC camber arm install is an easy DIY. You no longer need to replace the boots.
Any alignment spec sheets. If you align the car at the dealership they will adjust it to the permissible spec. They never zero the toe completely. Unless you specify that you want better high speed stability they haven't ever put it into the toe in range. I prefer toe out so it has more aggressive turn in but its very skittish at higher speeds.
It is listed as +/- so if you're in the plus range the car is very stable at low and high speeds however if you want the back end to rotate agressively like I do, toe out on the rear is better but just be careful about that. Stiffer sway bar with those toe settings can cause lift off oversteer so don't lift off lol
Last edited by d1sturb3d119; 10-29-2014 at 09:19 AM.
^^^^^ No where does "Acura suggest 0.08 degrees of toe in on the rear to improve turn in..."
Its written right there on the page I posted under step 2. Toe In 0.08 degrees. That is the basic spec every TL is aligned to. Deviation from that can cause other issues. Thats the spec verbatim from the service manual. It improves stability but like I said I prefer more oversteer than cornering stability.
02-11-2007, 03:37 PM
TL fishtails under full occupancy....Yes fishtailing on FWD
