TL 6mt vs. Civic Si (both modded)
02-25-2012, 09:33 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
TL 6mt vs. Civic Si (both modded)
Current mods for both cars are listed in the video intro. I had about 100-150 lbs of extra weight in passenger compared to the Si.
30 roll:
30 roll:
02-25-2012, 04:03 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
^ nice kill and you had an added passenger good stuff and nice to see it on video!!
02-26-2012, 12:34 AM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm wanting to at least get the PnP manifold and runners on before the ECU. From what I have read in the performance section both should make a pretty big difference.
02-26-2012, 12:58 AM
#5
All motor
I'm liking where this section is going with the vids 
Nice kill. I'm also surprised the Si didn't do better. You put over a bus on him with a passenger.
Nice kill. I'm also surprised the Si didn't do better. You put over a bus on him with a passenger.
02-26-2012, 01:57 AM
#6
Instructor
Thread Starter
I also have a video with a 335i FBO + Meth 
It's actually a decent race because he was running JB4 map 0, which is the stock ECU map.
He normally runs 18 psi (8 psi is stock boost pressure)... but that would have been pretty pointless.
It's actually a decent race because he was running JB4 map 0, which is the stock ECU map.
He normally runs 18 psi (8 psi is stock boost pressure)... but that would have been pretty pointless.
02-26-2012, 02:03 AM
#7
I was the one who raced him on map 0 in my 335i. He was a car ahead of me until about 105 and then i slowly pulled about a car infront of him. Keep in mind my car still has full bolt ons, so it is putting down about 295whp even on map 0.
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02-27-2012, 07:49 AM
#9
All motor
You said you put down 295whp, which means you're probably making what, 340ft lbs? 300 of that at less than 2000RPM? I know the 335i weighs slightly more, especially with the 100lb weight reduction of the TL, but that's still much more power and torque. Video needs to be posted!!!
A full bolt on/tuned 6MT should be able to pull a stock 335i. But one with PCD/Jpipe only pulling a full bolt on 335i? Sounds a little fishy even to me.
02-27-2012, 08:53 AM
#10
I wanna see this vid. I'm a huge advocate of the J series and love every part of it, but this I have to see. Were you in the wrong gear or at a low RPM? I can't see a 6MT TL, even full bolt on, staying ahead of a full bolt on/Meth 335i at any point in any race.
You said you put down 295whp, which means you're probably making what, 340ft lbs? 300 of that at less than 2000RPM? I know the 335i weighs slightly more, especially with the 100lb weight reduction of the TL, but that's still much more power and torque. Video needs to be posted!!!
A full bolt on/tuned 6MT should be able to pull a stock 335i. But one with PCD/Jpipe only pulling a full bolt on 335i? Sounds a little fishy even to me.
You said you put down 295whp, which means you're probably making what, 340ft lbs? 300 of that at less than 2000RPM? I know the 335i weighs slightly more, especially with the 100lb weight reduction of the TL, but that's still much more power and torque. Video needs to be posted!!!
A full bolt on/tuned 6MT should be able to pull a stock 335i. But one with PCD/Jpipe only pulling a full bolt on 335i? Sounds a little fishy even to me.
Here is a screen shot of the race at ~90mph
Last edited by Forcefed 3; 02-27-2012 at 08:55 AM.
02-27-2012, 09:08 AM
#11
Instructor
Thread Starter
I wanna see this vid. I'm a huge advocate of the J series and love every part of it, but this I have to see. Were you in the wrong gear or at a low RPM? I can't see a 6MT TL, even full bolt on, staying ahead of a full bolt on/Meth 335i at any point in any race.
You said you put down 295whp, which means you're probably making what, 340ft lbs? 300 of that at less than 2000RPM? I know the 335i weighs slightly more, especially with the 100lb weight reduction of the TL, but that's still much more power and torque. Video needs to be posted!!!
A full bolt on/tuned 6MT should be able to pull a stock 335i. But one with PCD/Jpipe only pulling a full bolt on 335i? Sounds a little fishy even to me.
You said you put down 295whp, which means you're probably making what, 340ft lbs? 300 of that at less than 2000RPM? I know the 335i weighs slightly more, especially with the 100lb weight reduction of the TL, but that's still much more power and torque. Video needs to be posted!!!
A full bolt on/tuned 6MT should be able to pull a stock 335i. But one with PCD/Jpipe only pulling a full bolt on 335i? Sounds a little fishy even to me.
He does have FBO plus meth installed. When we ran he was using the stock map which is 8 psi and no meth. Because of his mods he still has 20-25 whp over stock even on the stock map.
If he was running meth map he would be at 18 psi and ~1200 cc/min of meth. That would just be embarrassing.
I agree that I really need to dyno my car though. I really think that the xlr8 v2 jpipe is the best on the market currently too. Did you see the gains over the xlr8 v1 + third cat delete?
Last edited by ProbyOne; 02-27-2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Forcefed 3 (02-27-2012)
02-27-2012, 09:20 AM
#12
All motor
When I say 'fishy' I'm not implying either of you are lying; odd would've been the better word. Like I said I'm a huge advocate of the 'sleeper' status of some bolt on TL's and love to hear these stories, I just can't seem to put my finger on this one.
295whp/300+ ft-lbs of torque in a 3500lb car.
260??whp/225 ft-lbs of torque in a 3300lb car (let's just say 3300).
I'm not saying it didn't happen, please don't think that. All I'm saying is that something seems off, and this won't be the norm for most. Did you start in 3rd at 40? If so, that would explain it.
I'd love for the TL to get some track numbers
^^Just read your response. Yes the gains of the XRL8 V2 over the V1 were substantial; very impressive. Oh I thought you were dyno'd for Forcefed to make claims of you putting down 260. I'd estimate 245, again, dyno dependent. Get some track numbers!!
295whp/300+ ft-lbs of torque in a 3500lb car.
260??whp/225 ft-lbs of torque in a 3300lb car (let's just say 3300).
I'm not saying it didn't happen, please don't think that. All I'm saying is that something seems off, and this won't be the norm for most. Did you start in 3rd at 40? If so, that would explain it.
I'd love for the TL to get some track numbers
^^Just read your response. Yes the gains of the XRL8 V2 over the V1 were substantial; very impressive. Oh I thought you were dyno'd for Forcefed to make claims of you putting down 260. I'd estimate 245, again, dyno dependent. Get some track numbers!!
Last edited by Sonnick; 02-27-2012 at 09:23 AM.
02-27-2012, 09:43 PM
#14
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
When I say 'fishy' I'm not implying either of you are lying; odd would've been the better word. Like I said I'm a huge advocate of the 'sleeper' status of some bolt on TL's and love to hear these stories, I just can't seem to put my finger on this one.
295whp/300+ ft-lbs of torque in a 3500lb car.
260??whp/225 ft-lbs of torque in a 3300lb car (let's just say 3300).
I'm not saying it didn't happen, please don't think that. All I'm saying is that something seems off, and this won't be the norm for most. Did you start in 3rd at 40? If so, that would explain it.
I'd love for the TL to get some track numbers
^^Just read your response. Yes the gains of the XRL8 V2 over the V1 were substantial; very impressive. Oh I thought you were dyno'd for Forcefed to make claims of you putting down 260. I'd estimate 245, again, dyno dependent. Get some track numbers!!
295whp/300+ ft-lbs of torque in a 3500lb car.
260??whp/225 ft-lbs of torque in a 3300lb car (let's just say 3300).
I'm not saying it didn't happen, please don't think that. All I'm saying is that something seems off, and this won't be the norm for most. Did you start in 3rd at 40? If so, that would explain it.
I'd love for the TL to get some track numbers
^^Just read your response. Yes the gains of the XRL8 V2 over the V1 were substantial; very impressive. Oh I thought you were dyno'd for Forcefed to make claims of you putting down 260. I'd estimate 245, again, dyno dependent. Get some track numbers!!
I'm still surprised here as well. The e46 walked the TL pretty hard. What speed did you guys run to (e46 and TL)? I mean I think 8/10 times a stock e46 M3 is going to edge out a stock 335, but not by much. The 4.10's probably do wonders though. Not sure what the stock ratio is on the M3, but I once went from a 3.23 to a 4.10 in a Camaro and it was a completely different car. Never could get rid of the damn gear whine though.
02-27-2012, 09:47 PM
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
I believe Justin made 242 with the same two mods, but that was STD, so figure low 230's SAE. Stock on the 6MT is 215-220 SAE, so maybe he was on the lower end of that to begin with. I think 20 whp is about the most you'll see from the two mods combined.
I'm still surprised here as well. The e46 walked the TL pretty hard. What speed did you guys run to (e46 and TL)? I mean I think 8/10 times a stock e46 M3 is going to edge out a stock 335, but not by much. The 4.10's probably do wonders though. Not sure what the stock ratio is on the M3, but I once went from a 3.23 to a 4.10 in a Camaro and it was a completely different car. Never could get rid of the damn gear whine though.
I'm still surprised here as well. The e46 walked the TL pretty hard. What speed did you guys run to (e46 and TL)? I mean I think 8/10 times a stock e46 M3 is going to edge out a stock 335, but not by much. The 4.10's probably do wonders though. Not sure what the stock ratio is on the M3, but I once went from a 3.23 to a 4.10 in a Camaro and it was a completely different car. Never could get rid of the damn gear whine though.
E46 M3 regularly dynos 270-275 stock, so I would find it very hard to believe that I am only making somewhere in the 230s to the wheels being the heavier car. It would have been much worse than that if that was the case.
ETA:
Just a quick note on some back of the envelope calculations that I have done:
If I am at 240 whp, and the M3 is at 270 whp (conservative number), that would put him at a power/weight ratio of almost 20% over me in that setup.
20% is good for more than 10 cars in a 40-120 run. I wouldn't say he was even 5 car lengths ahead by 120.
Last edited by ProbyOne; 02-27-2012 at 09:57 PM.
02-28-2012, 08:03 AM
#17
All motor
^^ But at the same time, you can't solely use P-W ratio to explain a street run. There are many variables to consider. Gear ratios are very important as are driver skill, reaction time, etc. The 2nd run was the cleanest run since it seemed you both started at the same time. But now that I think of it, I'd hold more weight on the 1st run because you got a slight jump, but also were carrying the extra weight of a passenger.
5 cars from 40-120 is a pretty large gap...But you did surprisingly well considering your mods and passenger. Get more mods and re-run.
I know you said an exhaust really isn't an option. If that's the case, I'd highly recommend a cutout. You won't see nearly as much gains from the PnP manifold & runners with the stock exhaust as you would with a cutout. I'd recommend buying the Flowmaster reducer (R3025 for like $35, and you get 2), having a flange welded to it and put it right at the end of the Jpipe. After this transition, have a 3in cutout welded on. The only downside is that you'd have to cut your stock exhaust.....if you don't want to do that, you could always get an exhaust that sounds semi-stock, even with the PCDs. You'd need a large resonator and mufflers, but it can be done.
5 cars from 40-120 is a pretty large gap...But you did surprisingly well considering your mods and passenger. Get more mods and re-run.
I know you said an exhaust really isn't an option. If that's the case, I'd highly recommend a cutout. You won't see nearly as much gains from the PnP manifold & runners with the stock exhaust as you would with a cutout. I'd recommend buying the Flowmaster reducer (R3025 for like $35, and you get 2), having a flange welded to it and put it right at the end of the Jpipe. After this transition, have a 3in cutout welded on. The only downside is that you'd have to cut your stock exhaust.....if you don't want to do that, you could always get an exhaust that sounds semi-stock, even with the PCDs. You'd need a large resonator and mufflers, but it can be done.
02-28-2012, 08:53 AM
#18
Instructor
Thread Starter
^^ But at the same time, you can't solely use P-W ratio to explain a street run. There are many variables to consider. Gear ratios are very important as are driver skill, reaction time, etc. The 2nd run was the cleanest run since it seemed you both started at the same time. But now that I think of it, I'd hold more weight on the 1st run because you got a slight jump, but also were carrying the extra weight of a passenger.
5 cars from 40-120 is a pretty large gap...But you did surprisingly well considering your mods and passenger. Get more mods and re-run.
I know you said an exhaust really isn't an option. If that's the case, I'd highly recommend a cutout. You won't see nearly as much gains from the PnP manifold & runners with the stock exhaust as you would with a cutout. I'd recommend buying the Flowmaster reducer (R3025 for like $35, and you get 2), having a flange welded to it and put it right at the end of the Jpipe. After this transition, have a 3in cutout welded on. The only downside is that you'd have to cut your stock exhaust.....if you don't want to do that, you could always get an exhaust that sounds semi-stock, even with the PCDs. You'd need a large resonator and mufflers, but it can be done.
5 cars from 40-120 is a pretty large gap...But you did surprisingly well considering your mods and passenger. Get more mods and re-run.
I know you said an exhaust really isn't an option. If that's the case, I'd highly recommend a cutout. You won't see nearly as much gains from the PnP manifold & runners with the stock exhaust as you would with a cutout. I'd recommend buying the Flowmaster reducer (R3025 for like $35, and you get 2), having a flange welded to it and put it right at the end of the Jpipe. After this transition, have a 3in cutout welded on. The only downside is that you'd have to cut your stock exhaust.....if you don't want to do that, you could always get an exhaust that sounds semi-stock, even with the PCDs. You'd need a large resonator and mufflers, but it can be done.
I need to go to the track AND dyno the car to get better numbers for sure.
Also interesting is that the 4.10 gears are perfect for the M3 for a 40-120 pull, while mine were similar but a little longer.
His shift points at 8k rpm are: 59, 89, and 121
Mine are: 63, 92, 125 with my current tires
It's funny you mention cutouts... It is actually something that I have been considering. Not many people have done it as far as I can tell. 10 whp gain? And no I have no problem touching the stock exhaust.
02-28-2012, 10:21 AM
#19
Instructor
Thread Starter
^^ But at the same time, you can't solely use P-W ratio to explain a street run. There are many variables to consider. Gear ratios are very important as are driver skill, reaction time, etc. The 2nd run was the cleanest run since it seemed you both started at the same time. But now that I think of it, I'd hold more weight on the 1st run because you got a slight jump, but also were carrying the extra weight of a passenger.
The most disappointing thing about the 335i and M3 runs were my brakes and suspension. High speed braking on those cars was leaps and bounds better than the stock Acura brembos. The nosedive was kind of embarassing too. I have already ordered stainless lines and motul fluid. Racingbrake pads and rotors are going on as soon as I wear out my current pads and rotors.
02-28-2012, 10:46 AM
#20
All motor
Sounds like you have some good plans man. I hope you didn't take any offense to anything I've said. If you did then I apologize. I was just trying to understand all of this.
If you have no problem touching the stock exhaust then I definitely recommend a cutout. You will see great gains as compared to your current stock exhaust setup, especially given the PCDs and XLR8 V2. I think you'd benefit from the 'venturi' reducer cone I mentioned above welded to the end of your Jpipe, then attached to a 3in cutout. There was one member, Yonkers914, who had a cutout on his Base and it sounded nuts. Search "DC5 vs J32 TL" or "B18c5 hatch vs. J32 TL" on youtube and you will hear it. The B18 hatch will give you a much better idea on how it sounds
If you have no problem touching the stock exhaust then I definitely recommend a cutout. You will see great gains as compared to your current stock exhaust setup, especially given the PCDs and XLR8 V2. I think you'd benefit from the 'venturi' reducer cone I mentioned above welded to the end of your Jpipe, then attached to a 3in cutout. There was one member, Yonkers914, who had a cutout on his Base and it sounded nuts. Search "DC5 vs J32 TL" or "B18c5 hatch vs. J32 TL" on youtube and you will hear it. The B18 hatch will give you a much better idea on how it sounds
03-01-2012, 11:50 PM
#21
When I get off of work I will be happy to show you how I got the numbers too.
The most disappointing thing about the 335i and M3 runs were my brakes and suspension. High speed braking on those cars was leaps and bounds better than the stock Acura brembos. The nosedive was kind of embarassing too. I have already ordered stainless lines and motul fluid. Racingbrake pads and rotors are going on as soon as I wear out my current pads and rotors.
The most disappointing thing about the 335i and M3 runs were my brakes and suspension. High speed braking on those cars was leaps and bounds better than the stock Acura brembos. The nosedive was kind of embarassing too. I have already ordered stainless lines and motul fluid. Racingbrake pads and rotors are going on as soon as I wear out my current pads and rotors.
nice, i'm curious as to your power output and how much the xlr8 v2 jpipe itself actually puts down alone.
I wonder if it is our brake bias causing a lot of nose dive,possibly. Also just by looking at our cars it seems like it would nosedive hard during braking anyways :S big front brakes and a lot of weight already in front vs a seemingly less weighty rear
I am also upgrading my brake set up but it isn't too severe I went with 4 centric/powerslot slotted rotors and stoptech pads. I am aware that I do not need to upgrade lines because I rarely brake hard or enough times during any of my spirited driving sessions to experience too much brake fade. But i have noticed that there were postings in the past that state our brake lines expand and move the firewall and what not so should i do it? sorry for if this is seen as a semi thread jack but could help you save money too "in the case" you actually don't need them =p
Last edited by DC2many; 03-01-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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