SouthernBoy

Two of my cars that were the most unforgiving in terms of not suffering any mistakes were my 1966 SS396/360 HP L34 Chevelle and my 1988 Mustang LX 302CID. Excellent cars and solid as a rock - much stronger that our TL's could even hope to be. They neither of them suffered fools. I loved them both and had a ball with them.

SouthernBoy

The proper method to use for downshifting is commonly called "double clutching". Let's assume you are approaching a stop sign, traffic light, or a turn and you are in 4th gear and want to downshift into 3rd. Here, in a nutshell, is what double clutching entails.

o Lift your foot up completely from the throttle.
o Fully depress the clutch pedal and start your shift to 3rd gear.
o Pause for a moment as you enter the neutral gate.
o Blip the throttle while at the same time, release the clutch some (or all).
o Depress the clutch again.
o Complete the shift into 3rd gear.
o Release the clutch.

If you do all of this correctly, you will feel absolutely no jerking or trauma through your drive train. It will all be a smooth, fluid motion. Timing is everything when doing this.

BTW, this is not the same thing as rev-matching. Rev-matching does not allow for steps three and four above. It will reduce clutch wear. but double clutching reduces not only clutch wear, but synchronizer wear as well.

Video for reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI3cH...eature=related

pokin

Exactly my thoughts after reading the post.

You can quickly get used to MT. Here's an idea: find a driving school that has a MT vehicle and schedule a one-day session.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

hmmm...
I'm gonna have to practice that double clutching. I remember when my Dad let me drive his old VW Van...it had a 3 foot shifter stick and you HAD to double clutch up and down. LoL. I'm good at rev matching but haven't ever tried double clutching.

I wouldn't claim to be a guru on stick shift, but with over 10 years driving Honda manual tranny's I'd like to think that I do recognize when something just doesn't feel right. Even after 6 months of driving the TL I still had to be VERY conscious of 1st and 2nd to make it a smooth transition...when I took out the delay valve, it felt like I was driving any of my previous manuals. It's my opinion, and it worked for me. I don't beat up on the car too much nor too often as I'm trying to get the most mpg lately but I think the checkvalve delete is a thumbs up.

Aman

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've got a couple of questions of my own as well.

As far as double-clutching, how do you know how much to rev the engine?

And when you guys upshift, do you let go of the gas and disengage the clutch abruptly? Or should you ease into the clutch a little bit?

Last question: Why can't you keep the gas to the floor when doing WOT upshifts? I know cars like the Mazdaspeed3 have sofware that allow you to flat-shift, but I don't understand why you can't do it in most cars. The only worry I can think of is over-revving, but thats why we have rev-limiters.

erick3

wow! so much information...
give me a second to respond! thank you all for responding so quickly! haha

southern,
i'll definitely be throwing a phone call your way!
thank you SOO much!!! haha

eric

SouthernBoy

"As far as double-clutching, how do you know how much to rev the engine?"

Watch your tach until you get the hang of it. I have been doing this for so long that when I blip, I only raise engine speed around 200 RPM. Just mentally calculate when the engine needs to be for the lower gear into which you are downshifting, then add a couple hundred RPM. You'll know if you're dead on if the transition is smooth and seemless.


"And when you guys upshift, do you let go of the gas and disengage the clutch abruptly? Or should you ease into the clutch a little bit?"

Pretty much, yeah. Easing into the clutch is a bad habit since it can easily lead to riding the clutch. Try to make it a smooth motion and you don't need to hurry through when driving normally.


"Last question: Why can't you keep the gas to the floor when doing WOT upshifts? I know cars like the Mazdaspeed3 have sofware that allow you to flat-shift, but I don't understand why you can't do it in most cars. The only worry I can think of is over-revving, but thats why we have rev-limiters."

What you are describing is known in drag racing as power shifting. You should avoid this like the plague with the TL unless you are of a mind to trash your drive train. There are three methods of shifting when when racing:

1. Speed shifting. Normal shifting, but done very fast.
2. Power shifting. Same as speed shifting, but your foot stays in the throttle.
3. Bang shifting. Same as power shifting, but you don't use the clutch.

arrogantbastard

@southernboy: great explanation on double-clutching.

This is a technique I'm still working at to get completely smooth. Straight rev-matching and heel-and-toeing are second nature, though.

There's a lot of debate out there regarding the need to double clutch with modern manual transmissions (i.e. those with sychronizers) during normal daily driving. Given the exhibited weakness of Honda/Acura 6MT's, it's worth it to learn this technique to minimize wear on the synchronizers.

erick3

just a thought - i thought double clutching was a no-no on our cars, or any modern car for that matter, because of....."synchos?"

Aman

Synchros help, basically do the same job as double-clutching, which is to make the downshift seamless. However, double-clutching helps preserve the synchros, which I think would help most people on here, considering the 6MT 3rd gear synchro issue.

@arrogantbastard: aren't rev-matching and double-clutching the same thing, except in double-clutching you engage the clutch twice?

@SouthernBoy: Thanks for the explanation, but about power shifting, how does it damage our transmission? I don't understand what parts of the drivetrain it would damage.

SouthernBoy

To arrogantbastard and erick3;

You both commented that you had heard that with modern cars, double clutching was not necessary because of their transmissions having synchronizers. Do not believe this for one minute. Whomever told you this clearly does not understand how a manual transmission operates.

Synchronized manual transmissions have been around since 1929 (Cadillac), so they're not exactly new kids on the block. And I can tell you that there were several transmissions (one in particular) in the 60's which had far better, as in stronger, parts than our TL manuals could even dream of. I refer you to the famous Muncie 4-speed transmissions used by GM cars in those days.

As for a lot of debate about whether or not to double clutch, I would wager that many of those debating against this technique probably don't know how to do it. This is why I try to get people to learn what the components of a manual transmission are and how they work. Synchronizers work like little clutches to match shaft speeds before dog teeth insertion takes place. When you double clutch, YOU are the one doing most or all of this matching and not the synchros. This results in substantially reduced wear.


BTW, I never managed to master heel-and-toeing.

Aman

I think the trick to heel and toeing is to use the side of your foot to blip the gas, instead of the heel. Works for me anyways.

arrogantbastard

I'll defer to someone with more in-depth knowledge, but I am pretty sure they are not the same. When you are rev-matching, you are blipping the throttle while the clutch is engaged. When you are double clutching, you are blipping the throttle when the clutch is not engaged and the transmission is in neutral. IIRC, the difference is that you are actually spinning the synchros when double clutching, thus minimizing wear when you actually engage the gear. When you are rev-matching with the clutch egaged, you are not spinning the synchros.
The shift will still be smooth with rev-matching, but you are still inducing wear on the synchros. That's why I'm still working on double clutching to get it smooth.

@southernboy: I was just stating the fact that the debate is out there. I'm still working on the technique to get as much mileage as I can out of my RSX.

SouthernBoy

You have that backwards. When you rev-match, you blip the throttle with the clutch disengaged while making the shift. When double clutching, you essentially do the same thing except for the fact that you pause in the neutral gate and as you blip the throttle, you engage the clutch at the same time. This spins the the transmission input shaft in preparation for the final engagement.

As for "stating the fact that the debate is out there", I know you were and I hope I didn't come across as taking you to task with my response. No flaming intended.

SouthernBoy

Yep.

As for power shifting, think about my description. Once you launch and get going, the remaining shifts are performed VERY quickly and you never take your foot off of the throttle. As you are upshifting, each successive gear has a higher ratio than the prior one and needs fewer RPMs for the shift. But when power shifting, engine speed can raise more than 1000 RPMs over where it was when you disengaged the clutch. So even if you don't miss any shifts and successfully complete each shift, the shock to the drive train is magnified many times. FWD cars don't like this and parts can break real fast. Our engines would hit the rev limiter, but everything down stream from the clutch assembly (transmission, final drive, half shafts, CV joints) would be subjected to this shock.

arrogantbastard

OK. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics here. When I say the clutch is engaged, I mean that the clutch pedal is fully depressed; conversely, when it's not engaged, I mean that the clutch pedal is not depressed.

Now that I think about it, you're right. When the clutch pedal is fully depressed, the clutch itself is dis-engaged.

I should give myself a 3-beer limit for posting...

erick3

man, one my biggest fears: being at a light, on a hill, and rolling backwards and hitting the car behind me! is that still my fault? lol
one other point, it's REALLY impressive that your friends didn't realize you were driving a manual; on the test drives, I could see my passenger's head swaying back and forth between shifts; you just confirmed that i SUCK lol
i can't help it i rev up to around 2500, and then put then disengaged the clutch...maybe it's because i'm so heavy on the throttle? what's your secret? driving "easy?" man.......it must be blatantly obvious that I have no idea what I'm talking about....

SouthernBoy

A nice single malt on the rocks, nearly neat would be nice.

erick3

DUDE, what's "powershifting?" lol
shifting...hard and fast? wot?

...many, many thanks haha

JwongTLS

DONT EVER POWERSHIFT!

well if u like thats up to u

erick3

Southern,

If I remember correctly, sometimes people skip gears, whether it be going from 2nd to 4th, or 4th to 2nd. Good idea or bad? And since rev-matching isn't a no-no anymore, this removes the necessity (when say, going from 5th to 3rd, for a freeway pull), to disengag and then engage the clutch SLOWLY? I have a friend on the CL side that insists that it's better to do so then rev matching...?

JwongTLS

Dont skip gears either...bad for ur synchros

im sure southernboy has more details

SouthernBoy

Something I learned many years ago. The first step in learning something is admitting you don't know. Humility is a gift. Lack of it is evidence of pending failure.

Try not to rev your engine up to 2500 RPM when starting out. This will go a long way in scoring your flywheel and pressure plate, not to mention frying your clutch disk.

Driving easy? Me? Yeah, most of the time, I am quite careful with my car. I want it to last a long time since I still like it. But there are other reasons, too. Like expensive repairs or being stranded when and where you least expect it. You need to develop a feel for your clutch and throttle and couple that with how the whole thing works.

Do I make mistakes from time to time? Absolutely. My left heel gets momentarily hung up on the floor mat and suddenly, I'm into the throttle too much. Or I get distracted by something and I mess up a downshift or even an upshift. It happens. But fortunately, not often.

SouthernBoy

Reference post numbers 47 and 55.

SouthernBoy

Amen to that. These cars are not made of the same stuff as American supercars of the mid 60's. They just ain't gonna take this kind of abuse.

SouthernBoy

I agree but for a few different reasons. Skipping gears on downshifts is Ok if you know what you're doing and there is a need for this. Otherwise, it's best not to do this. As for doing it while upshifting, you will have to wait longer before completing the shift to allow engine speed to drop to where it needs to be for the higher gear.

SouthernBoy

I'm not positive I understand all you have asked, but I'll try to answer.

See my response to JwongTLS I just made regarding skipping gears when shifting.

Rev-matching never was a no-non. It was just not the complete action you should be doing when downshifting. It reduces clutch wear, but does not reduce synchronizer wear.

"And since rev-matching isn't a no-no anymore, this removes the necessity (when say, going from 5th to 3rd, for a freeway pull), to disengag and then engage the clutch SLOWLY? I have a friend on the CL side that insists that it's better to do so then rev matching...?"

This is the part I'm not quite sure about what exactly it is you are asking. Can you try this again?

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

Aaah... The art of heel-toe'ing

This is something most people claim to know how to do... And I've seen first hand how incorrectly people do it

See when you heel-toe you literally are using all 3 pedals at the same time

If you ever take ur foot off the brake (which most heel-toe'ers claim not to do) you aren't doing it correctly

The idea is to downshift while slowing down and roll ur foot to blip the throttle for a smooth downshift... But the thing is while learning ur brain can't find the gas pedal... So if you are flat footed... Ur handicapped haaahah kidding... The good thing is nowadays you have companies that make gas pedals specifically for the population of car enthusiasts that wants to heeltoe... There's a special plate next to the gas that allows ur foot to find the gas

Here's a pic


These are for the tsx... So the dead pedal fitment will stink... But hey that creates a smooth learning curve

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

What's the biggest benefit to heeltoeing rather than just downshifting and braking independently?

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

I'm gonna guess it's faster??

JwongTLS

Yes the whole process is faster and smoother if u do it correctly, but at the same time your ride the clutch pretty bad

arrogantbastard

NO, not if done correctly. You are using the clutch the same as you would for a normal downshift. The only difference is that you are braking at the same time.

@rockstar: The purpose of heel-and-toeing is to brake and downshift at the same time, so that the correct gear is selected prior to entering a corner. The true application of this technique is on the track, where the car is always skirting the limits of adhesion. I you are shifting mid-corner, you are upsetting the balance of the car at the worst possible time. If you are shifting after exiting the corner, you are already too late. You should already be in gear and accelerating through the apex to the exit. Heel-and-toeing is a means to downshift while you're heavy on the brakes so that you are immediately on the throttle to power through the turn.

Is all this necessary for normal daily driving on the street? Not really. I just like doing it as a means for getting smooth downshifts when I'm on the brakes. If you're downshifting to pass someone or because you are slowing down (but not on the brakes), then double-clutching is the way to go. If you can't double clutch yet, at least blip the throttle to rev-match to get a smooth downshift.

SouthernBoy

Props to you! And the sentence I bolded is on the money, too.

JwongTLS

yes heel-toe is more a track-day thing..for DD ppl usually double clutch.

piggydog

look up clutch rubber stop. Lots of BMW guys use one, I did one by myself. Cost me nothing and my driving experience is 1000% better.

NCTL05

iTrader: (9)

I still can't figure out how to properly drive my car. About 20% of the time I will jerk it in 1st and 2nd. That sounds dirty. lol

One must do mod is a louder exhaust. That way you can use the sound of the car instead of looking at the tac to judge when to shift. Several times before I put my exhaust on I would bounce off the rev limiter because the car was too quiet.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

I always listen to my exhaust. Usually I can downshift/upshift at the the right RPM just by listening. It pays to learn your car, it will return the favor by providing you with a nice drive

Izzy-Type-S

iTrader: (1)

Wish you were closer, I would offer free lessons! I work in real estate and am constantly on the phone, stopping at homes & with clients so the manual would have been tough to work with. I learned to drive manual on my pop's '96 convertible Pontiac Trans Am RWD 6-speed. Amazing fun in that car.

platinum1

Congrats on your 06 MT Erick. Enjoy the car. It's a terrific vehicle. It's not too hard to learn to drive MT. Once you master it, you'll enjoy it more than AT.

erick3

thread revival. can anyone tell me if it's necessary to blip the throttle going from a taller gear to shorter gear? say you go from 4 to 3 at low speeds. i've noticed that there isnt much of a difference in rpms. blipping the throttles tend to cause a jolt.

thanks!