Take a look at a slightly abused clutch.
11-08-2010, 02:58 PM
#1
Take a look at a slightly abused clutch.
It's a 2006 with 39,000 miles on her. I bought the car in February and I am the second owner. A combination of the previous owner not know how to properly drive, test drivers, and from me learning how to drive the car.
I came from a Dodge Ram 6 cylinder 5M/T. 150,00 miles. 2nd owner. owned for 3 years.
I learned by just getting into the drivers seat. So, a bunch of bad habits.
Once I started to look for a sports sedan, specifically G35's, I read on forums the mistakes I was making.
I picked up my car, and it took me 3 months to learn the clutch. it was so hard. the engagement point was VERY low compared to the dodge I had. I had trouble finding the sweet spot. I've owned the car for 9 months now and these are the symptoms that it displayed:
- After high RPM runs, clutch would get stiff. it would take a couple of pumps of the clutch to feel normal. After I came to a complete stop, 1st gear had very inconsistent clutch pedal play. always notchy.
- High RPM runs into 5th and 6th. they would slip.
- Driving normal, up to temperature.Sometimes, from a stop I would Over-Rev 1st gear. Felt like it wasn't grabbing. I over-rev'd more-so when I felt rushed.
On wed. I found a shop who would change the clutch for $400, including fly wheel resurfacing. I had previously bought a new clutch set months ago, because of the symptoms.
total came out to be $470.xx because they bought a new gasket. the rear main seal? They also had to buy the measuring tool which was 10 bucks.
Without further adieu....
I showed SouthernBoy my pictures and this is what he had to say...
Prior to replacing the clutch, i had done the check-valve delete. and it still didnt solve my problems and thats when I decided to replace it.
Needless to say, I've learned my lesson and will not be as aggressive with my clutch.
I came from a Dodge Ram 6 cylinder 5M/T. 150,00 miles. 2nd owner. owned for 3 years.
I learned by just getting into the drivers seat. So, a bunch of bad habits.
Once I started to look for a sports sedan, specifically G35's, I read on forums the mistakes I was making.
I picked up my car, and it took me 3 months to learn the clutch. it was so hard. the engagement point was VERY low compared to the dodge I had. I had trouble finding the sweet spot. I've owned the car for 9 months now and these are the symptoms that it displayed:
- After high RPM runs, clutch would get stiff. it would take a couple of pumps of the clutch to feel normal. After I came to a complete stop, 1st gear had very inconsistent clutch pedal play. always notchy.
- High RPM runs into 5th and 6th. they would slip.
- Driving normal, up to temperature.Sometimes, from a stop I would Over-Rev 1st gear. Felt like it wasn't grabbing. I over-rev'd more-so when I felt rushed.
On wed. I found a shop who would change the clutch for $400, including fly wheel resurfacing. I had previously bought a new clutch set months ago, because of the symptoms.
total came out to be $470.xx because they bought a new gasket. the rear main seal? They also had to buy the measuring tool which was 10 bucks.
Without further adieu....
I showed SouthernBoy my pictures and this is what he had to say...
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
First, let me try to answer your questions up front.
The "wear mark" on the pressure plate contact surface appears to be a bit of scoring. Assuming the car is not being raced, the prime cause would be improper techniques such as over-revving and riding the clutch, hold the car on a hill with the clutch, and improper downshifting especially into lower gears at high engine speeds. But aggressive driving, such as racing, would be first up.
The small mark on the rim... I don't know where that may have come from. The close up of the end of a pressure plate finger looks like it has been broken off.
Some other members have complained about their clutches being stiff after a run through the gears or after a race. It almost always occurs after high RPM shifts and like you said, goes away after the clutch pedal has been pumped a few times. I have never had this happen to me but my guess is that it is primarily due to the clutch delay valve causing a pressure buildup. I seem to remember reading that when this valve is removed, the problem disappears.
The clutch delay valve is supposed to protect the drive train from the shock of quick and/or aggressive shift by controlling the speed at which full engagement is obtained under these operating conditions. You will note that your friction disk has no torque dissapation springs arrayed around the center splined hug as you would expect to see. This is a solid friction disk. So shock, chattering, and shutter is controlled by the delay valve and the dual mass flywheel, not the friction disk which is generally the case. When making hard shifts at high RPMs in the higher gears, this delay value will slow full engagement enough to create some slip. So this a lot and you wear the disk and get scoring.
I would be a little concerned if your initial engagement point is higher than the factory spec. If you have a new factory OEM clutch and pressure plate then your pressure plate is self-adjusting. And the flywheel is a dual mass unit. If the initial engagement point is too high, it is quite possible that your release bearing may have a constant force being applied to it. This will prematurely wear the bearing.... kinda like resting your foot on the clutch pedal when driving. Check your clutch pedal free play (also called toe play). The factory spec for this is between .39 and .71 inches. Make sure there is sufficient free play.
As for taking it easy for the first 500 miles with a new clutch, this is not really necessary. You can just drive normally from day one if you wish, however I would go with some common sense carefulness for a bit.
The "wear mark" on the pressure plate contact surface appears to be a bit of scoring. Assuming the car is not being raced, the prime cause would be improper techniques such as over-revving and riding the clutch, hold the car on a hill with the clutch, and improper downshifting especially into lower gears at high engine speeds. But aggressive driving, such as racing, would be first up.
The small mark on the rim... I don't know where that may have come from. The close up of the end of a pressure plate finger looks like it has been broken off.
Some other members have complained about their clutches being stiff after a run through the gears or after a race. It almost always occurs after high RPM shifts and like you said, goes away after the clutch pedal has been pumped a few times. I have never had this happen to me but my guess is that it is primarily due to the clutch delay valve causing a pressure buildup. I seem to remember reading that when this valve is removed, the problem disappears.
The clutch delay valve is supposed to protect the drive train from the shock of quick and/or aggressive shift by controlling the speed at which full engagement is obtained under these operating conditions. You will note that your friction disk has no torque dissapation springs arrayed around the center splined hug as you would expect to see. This is a solid friction disk. So shock, chattering, and shutter is controlled by the delay valve and the dual mass flywheel, not the friction disk which is generally the case. When making hard shifts at high RPMs in the higher gears, this delay value will slow full engagement enough to create some slip. So this a lot and you wear the disk and get scoring.
I would be a little concerned if your initial engagement point is higher than the factory spec. If you have a new factory OEM clutch and pressure plate then your pressure plate is self-adjusting. And the flywheel is a dual mass unit. If the initial engagement point is too high, it is quite possible that your release bearing may have a constant force being applied to it. This will prematurely wear the bearing.... kinda like resting your foot on the clutch pedal when driving. Check your clutch pedal free play (also called toe play). The factory spec for this is between .39 and .71 inches. Make sure there is sufficient free play.
As for taking it easy for the first 500 miles with a new clutch, this is not really necessary. You can just drive normally from day one if you wish, however I would go with some common sense carefulness for a bit.
Prior to replacing the clutch, i had done the check-valve delete. and it still didnt solve my problems and thats when I decided to replace it.
Needless to say, I've learned my lesson and will not be as aggressive with my clutch.
11-08-2010, 03:23 PM
#5
^this is what they told me,that they resurfaced the flywheel.
I dont know if true or not as I was not there watching every step of the way..
I will also update this thread with long term durability in mind due to the check-valve delete.
we'll see what happens later down the road, without the check valve to help minimize shock
I dont know if true or not as I was not there watching every step of the way..
I will also update this thread with long term durability in mind due to the check-valve delete.
we'll see what happens later down the road, without the check valve to help minimize shock
Last edited by justnspace; 11-08-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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11-08-2010, 09:17 PM
#11
Instructor
While we are sharing trashed clutch photo's....
This is my buddy's clutch after learning to drive a manual on his way home from purchasing a brand new 2007 WRX...
And a broken tooth on his reverse gear...
All fixed under his warranty, in spring of 2009.
This is my buddy's clutch after learning to drive a manual on his way home from purchasing a brand new 2007 WRX...
And a broken tooth on his reverse gear...
All fixed under his warranty, in spring of 2009.
11-08-2010, 09:38 PM
#13
Registered Member
Thanks for the flowers. Trust me... take your time, learn as much as you can, and most important, learn how to separate the correct methods from those which are detrimental to your TL and you'll come out Ok. I say this because you obviously want to learn.
11-08-2010, 09:39 PM
#14
Registered Member
Just on his way home from the purchase? Whoa.. not good at all.
11-08-2010, 09:42 PM
#15
Registered Member
For those of you who might have manual vehicles which do not have a synchronized reverse, do this when shifting into that gear. From a dead stop, when you disengage your clutch, shift into a higher forward gear first (like 3rd) and then with the clutch still disengaged, shift into reverse. Do this and there will not be any grinding.
11-08-2010, 10:12 PM
#16
personally how is a clutch going bad in 39K horrible 
, i screwed up my stage 3 Clutchmasters in 2k miles 
(the 100 shot did not help at all though 
)
and even then i have replaced a clutch on my guy's car at like 90k, and that was his third or fourth clutch or something, so he was not learning on it, it's just the conditions and how he drove, hey i didn't care, he payed his bill 
try a motor after a week when you get it 
(was used with 14k already on it, but a 09 WRX, and really the first night you get it by yourself from the wife 
)(try hitting 2nd gear instead of 4th going like 100 [shifting from redline in 3rd)
and the BEST PART, ALL under warrenty, and it gets even better, the service writer litially told us even if you f@ck the brakes up they will be covered (there getting warpped before the warrenty is up
)
, i screwed up my stage 3 Clutchmasters in 2k miles (the 100 shot did not help at all though )and even then i have replaced a clutch on my guy's car at like 90k, and that was his third or fourth clutch or something, so he was not learning on it, it's just the conditions and how he drove
, hey i didn't care, he payed his bill (was used with 14k already on it, but a 09 WRX, and really the first night you get it by yourself from the wife )(try hitting 2nd gear instead of 4th going like 100 [shifting from redline in 3rd)and the BEST PART, ALL under warrenty, and it gets even better, the service writer litially told us even if you f@ck the brakes up they will be covered (there getting warpped before the warrenty is up
)
11-09-2010, 01:18 PM
#18
Safety Car
interesting...can racing result in those types of damages? can someone explain how? what if you're "racing" properly without misshifting, riding the clutch, etc..?
11-09-2010, 02:05 PM
#20
As Southernboy wrote in his response to the OP, the clutch delay valve in our car slips the clutch somewhat upon harsh engagements (ie: racing), in order to preserve the rest of the drivetrain.
So aggressive shifting will wear on your clutch, even if you release the pedal very quickly.
So aggressive shifting will wear on your clutch, even if you release the pedal very quickly.
11-09-2010, 02:06 PM
#21
Team Owner
There are different types of damages. There's shock where you dump the clutch or you have bad shift timing. Usually not hard on the clutch but it's hard on the rest of the drivetrain. Excessive slippage is what kills the clutch. This can be on takeoff, improper upshifting or downshifting.
If you keep slippage to a minimum, the clutch will live a long life. If you race a lot but have quick well matched shifts, you're not hurting the clutch.
My friend drag raced his Mustang on the street and the strip for 100,000 miles before the original clutch gave out. With the torque of the V8, he would launch with the throttle to the floor but it would be fully engaged within a second or so at a relatively low rpm. It was at the limit of traction with that type of launch anyway so it worked well. This is the way I've always tried to race especially on street tire. Instead of excessively high rpms, launch with more throttle at a lower rpm and get the clutch fully engaged sooner. Obviously things change as traction levels go up and you need more rpm to get off the line to it's potential.
The problem is, once you overheat it and it looks like the OP's clutch and pressure plate, the holding power goes down. So the issue is compounded once the initial abuse starts. That clutch could've been overheated just once a long time ago and that led to it's early death.
Off topic but the clutches and steels in an auto look very similar when they slip except they're much smaller and you have 20 or more clutches. Obviously they have a different function than coupling the engine to the trans.
11-09-2010, 02:13 PM
#22
Originally Posted by I hate cars
The problem is, once you overheat it and it looks like the OP's clutch and pressure plate, the holding power goes down. So the issue is compounded once the initial abuse starts. That clutch could've been overheated just once a long time ago and that led to it's early death.
It took me a long ass time to learn the engagement point of the clutch, so I'm assuming it was worn down before I got it.
My learning didn't help it either. After it got to a point where it was intolerable is when i started to beat on the clutch. slipping 5th and 6th gear constantly.
11-09-2010, 06:59 PM
#23
Racing if done right won't hurt the clutch. It can wear it quicker but not excessive.
There are different types of damages. There's shock where you dump the clutch or you have bad shift timing. Usually not hard on the clutch but it's hard on the rest of the drivetrain. Excessive slippage is what kills the clutch. This can be on takeoff, improper upshifting or downshifting.
If you keep slippage to a minimum, the clutch will live a long life. If you race a lot but have quick well matched shifts, you're not hurting the clutch.
My friend drag raced his Mustang on the street and the strip for 100,000 miles before the original clutch gave out. With the torque of the V8, he would launch with the throttle to the floor but it would be fully engaged within a second or so at a relatively low rpm. It was at the limit of traction with that type of launch anyway so it worked well. This is the way I've always tried to race especially on street tire. Instead of excessively high rpms, launch with more throttle at a lower rpm and get the clutch fully engaged sooner. Obviously things change as traction levels go up and you need more rpm to get off the line to it's potential.
The problem is, once you overheat it and it looks like the OP's clutch and pressure plate, the holding power goes down. So the issue is compounded once the initial abuse starts. That clutch could've been overheated just once a long time ago and that led to it's early death.
Off topic but the clutches and steels in an auto look very similar when they slip except they're much smaller and you have 20 or more clutches. Obviously they have a different function than coupling the engine to the trans.
There are different types of damages. There's shock where you dump the clutch or you have bad shift timing. Usually not hard on the clutch but it's hard on the rest of the drivetrain. Excessive slippage is what kills the clutch. This can be on takeoff, improper upshifting or downshifting.
If you keep slippage to a minimum, the clutch will live a long life. If you race a lot but have quick well matched shifts, you're not hurting the clutch.
My friend drag raced his Mustang on the street and the strip for 100,000 miles before the original clutch gave out. With the torque of the V8, he would launch with the throttle to the floor but it would be fully engaged within a second or so at a relatively low rpm. It was at the limit of traction with that type of launch anyway so it worked well. This is the way I've always tried to race especially on street tire. Instead of excessively high rpms, launch with more throttle at a lower rpm and get the clutch fully engaged sooner. Obviously things change as traction levels go up and you need more rpm to get off the line to it's potential.
The problem is, once you overheat it and it looks like the OP's clutch and pressure plate, the holding power goes down. So the issue is compounded once the initial abuse starts. That clutch could've been overheated just once a long time ago and that led to it's early death.
Off topic but the clutches and steels in an auto look very similar when they slip except they're much smaller and you have 20 or more clutches. Obviously they have a different function than coupling the engine to the trans.
but they also have fluid to help carry the heat away too though, and normally they are engaged faster then one can actually shift, so they are not slipping all that much to start with
11-09-2010, 07:50 PM
#24
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Age: 49
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This is a great thread on clutches! Great pictures.
OP, I can relate to the difference in pedal feel compared to your Dodge - my other vehicle is a 1994 dodge ram v10, 5 speed. If I drive that for a week, then hop in the TL, it takes a few miles for my body to adjust. Without thinking, I stalled the TL backing out of my driveway on several occasions.
OP, I can relate to the difference in pedal feel compared to your Dodge - my other vehicle is a 1994 dodge ram v10, 5 speed. If I drive that for a week, then hop in the TL, it takes a few miles for my body to adjust. Without thinking, I stalled the TL backing out of my driveway on several occasions.
11-09-2010, 08:08 PM
#26
Team Owner
However as I said when they do slip as in a pending failure, they look awefully similar.
The fluid will carry away some heat but temps on a sloppy shift can hit 300c extremely fast so you're past the fluid's ability to carry away heat very quickly. Once you reach the fluid's flash point it's no longer carrying away heat.
I was a trans builder many years ago.
11-09-2010, 08:10 PM
#27
Team Owner
That's absolutely terrible. You have to have no mechanical understanding and no common sense to do that to a trans and clutch in such a short time. I've taught girls who have never driven a stick to drive decently in 30 minutes.
11-09-2010, 08:23 PM
#29
No, they are not designed to slip. In fact slip during shifts is measured in miliseconds. This is why we now use a non FM fluid to reduce slippage during shifts to cut down on wear.
However as I said when they do slip as in a pending failure, they look awefully similar.
The fluid will carry away some heat but temps on a sloppy shift can hit 300c extremely fast so you're past the fluid's ability to carry away heat very quickly. Once you reach the fluid's flash point it's no longer carrying away heat.
I was a trans builder many years ago.
However as I said when they do slip as in a pending failure, they look awefully similar.
The fluid will carry away some heat but temps on a sloppy shift can hit 300c extremely fast so you're past the fluid's ability to carry away heat very quickly. Once you reach the fluid's flash point it's no longer carrying away heat.
I was a trans builder many years ago.
and i never said that the fluid will carry away ALL the heat, just that it HELPS (and the fluid does not really flow through the packs anyways per design, but the clutch drums get quite a bit of splash on them (let alone some of the fluid that passes through the shafts/pistons themselves taking some of it away also)
11-09-2010, 08:42 PM
#30
Team Owner
indeed they are designed to slip slightly for those buttery smooth shifts, but yes indeed you are talking about milliseconds though, compared to at least a couple of seconds with a driver involved (let alone multiple clutch packs, compared to a single clutch with a manual)
and i never said that the fluid will carry away ALL the heat, just that it HELPS (and the fluid does not really flow through the packs anyways per design, but the clutch drums get quite a bit of splash on them (let alone some of the fluid that passes through the shafts/pistons themselves taking some of it away also)
Obviously full flow and pressure is not fed to the clutches but an engineered "leak" past the sealing rings, feed holes in the shaft itself, or just splash in the case of many drum/band setups. Many designs use an orifice on the piston itself that will feed the clutches a small amount of lube.
The funniest thing I've seen doing transmissions was when I was doing R&R and the builder put one of the sprags in backwards in an old Mercedes. Everytime it shifted to second it locked the tires.
11-09-2010, 08:58 PM
#31
I think a lot of the slop built in to today's autos is a band-aid for poor design. IMO, proper shift timing will allow much quicker release and engagement while not hurting the smoothness.
My point was the fluid stops carrying away heat nearly altogether once it hits the flash point. One reason syns in an auto will give you a little more protection.
Obviously full flow and pressure is not fed to the clutches but an engineered "leak" past the sealing rings, feed holes in the shaft itself, or just splash in the case of many drum/band setups. Many designs use an orifice on the piston itself that will feed the clutches a small amount of lube.
The funniest thing I've seen doing transmissions was when I was doing R&R and the builder put one of the sprags in backwards in an old Mercedes. Everytime it shifted to second it locked the tires.
My point was the fluid stops carrying away heat nearly altogether once it hits the flash point. One reason syns in an auto will give you a little more protection.
Obviously full flow and pressure is not fed to the clutches but an engineered "leak" past the sealing rings, feed holes in the shaft itself, or just splash in the case of many drum/band setups. Many designs use an orifice on the piston itself that will feed the clutches a small amount of lube.
The funniest thing I've seen doing transmissions was when I was doing R&R and the builder put one of the sprags in backwards in an old Mercedes. Everytime it shifted to second it locked the tires.
) (and think about those 100k fluid 
a f@cking joke [but then again how many BMW's (first ones i saw it on) do you see with over 100k on them, not a whole lot)and indeed with very precise timing, you can get a relatively smooth shift, but not 100% though, and that slipping gets it that much smoother
that also helps to carry away any of the shit that may build up on the clutches too
kinda easy to do, cause a lot they will fit in either way, but then again you should be doable checking your work though, but the worst part about it, is that it basically requires a big tear down to flip it back around to the correct way
11-09-2010, 09:22 PM
#32
Team Owner
but then MOST people care more about smoothness then durability though (and for the most part, most cars get wrecked/totaled before you have to be thinking about a tranny ) (and think about those 100k fluid a f@cking joke [but then again how many BMW's (first ones i saw it on) do you see with over 100k on them, not a whole lot)
and indeed with very precise timing, you can get a relatively smooth shift, but not 100% though, and that slipping gets it that much smoother
that also helps to carry away any of the shit that may build up on the clutches too
kinda easy to do, cause a lot they will fit in either way, but then again you should be doable checking your work though, but the worst part about it, is that it basically requires a big tear down to flip it back around to the correct way
) (and think about those 100k fluid a f@cking joke [but then again how many BMW's (first ones i saw it on) do you see with over 100k on them, not a whole lot)and indeed with very precise timing, you can get a relatively smooth shift, but not 100% though, and that slipping gets it that much smoother
that also helps to carry away any of the shit that may build up on the clutches too
kinda easy to do, cause a lot they will fit in either way, but then again you should be doable checking your work though, but the worst part about it, is that it basically requires a big tear down to flip it back around to the correct way
Look at Honda's pathetic attempt at smooth shifs. They use a fluid loaded with FM and electronics to smooth out shifts on an already overworked (not enough apply area) trans. The result is a class action lawsuit for early failures and a bump shift that actually hurts shift quality.
If you're going to use this strategy you need to add more clutches and/or larger clutches to reduce stress on the clutches from the slip. Honda did not.
Transmissions regularly wear out long before the car goes to the junkyard. Most of the trans I saw come through the shop had between 50,000 and 150,000 miles on them.
BMW's "lifetime" fluid was plain old Dex III in most examples. Funny how the marketing department won the battle on that one.
11-09-2010, 09:42 PM
#33
If shift timing could be more precise, there could be better shift quality AND less wear. Instead they use slip as the band-aid. I don't know about most people but I know that I prefer less wear. It's sad that society has become so weak that not feeling a shift takes priority over wear.....
Look at Honda's pathetic attempt at smooth shifs. They use a fluid loaded with FM and electronics to smooth out shifts on an already overworked (not enough apply area) trans. The result is a class action lawsuit for early failures and a bump shift that actually hurts shift quality.
If you're going to use this strategy you need to add more clutches and/or larger clutches to reduce stress on the clutches from the slip. Honda did not.
Transmissions regularly wear out long before the car goes to the junkyard. Most of the trans I saw come through the shop had between 50,000 and 150,000 miles on them.
BMW's "lifetime" fluid was plain old Dex III in most examples. Funny how the marketing department won the battle on that one.
Look at Honda's pathetic attempt at smooth shifs. They use a fluid loaded with FM and electronics to smooth out shifts on an already overworked (not enough apply area) trans. The result is a class action lawsuit for early failures and a bump shift that actually hurts shift quality.
If you're going to use this strategy you need to add more clutches and/or larger clutches to reduce stress on the clutches from the slip. Honda did not.
Transmissions regularly wear out long before the car goes to the junkyard. Most of the trans I saw come through the shop had between 50,000 and 150,000 miles on them.
BMW's "lifetime" fluid was plain old Dex III in most examples. Funny how the marketing department won the battle on that one.
(and yes the less stressed you can make the clutches, by more surface area and such the better; and why i 
somebody would make a dual-clutch for the 6-speeds, and i hope it is Exidy/Daiken too, since they know how to make a very nice clutch for the 4 cyl. Hondas lol)look at brakes most people could give very little thought about how there brakes feel (to a point), but as soon as they make a squeak they are in to have it looked at
and most of those trannies probably were domestics vehicles too (the Japanese still have there bad designs, don't get me wrong, but they normally get repaired after a couple of years [4-5 years for Honda, now you don't really hear about it too much]; but look at GM's 4L60's how many YEARS have they been out and still having them fail at less then 100k
)and BMW's lifetime, IDK exaxtly what it is, but yeah kinda hard to make a "lifetime" fluid and expect it to last (but they probably figured it was still cheaper to market that, and replace those couple of trannies, then gaining those additional customers; all a balancing act)
Last edited by friesm2000; 11-09-2010 at 09:45 PM.
11-10-2010, 10:29 AM
#35
Instructor
He purchased the vehicle with 125 miles on it, and his theory is that someone abused the clutch heavily in those 125 miles, maybe a dealership employee, maybe someone else on a test drive. But he never even launched the WRX.
Luckily he had it fixed under warranty... He had to have a Subaru of America warranty specialist ride around in the car with him to ensure he knew how to drive a manual lol.
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