vector7777

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to say thanks for your help with learning to drive stick. It was stressful at first but has been a lot of fun lately. I have had the car for 3 weeks now and I think it is just a matter of getting faster and still alittle smoother with the shifts.

I do have a couple of questions:

1) If you are approaching a red light in 4 or 5th gear. What is the best course of action? I have been slipping the car in neutral and braking to a stop. Everyone I ask has a different response. One friend says he engine brakes, another says he does not go into neutral but stays on the clutch and brakes to a stop...he also stays on the clutch until the light turns green again (safety reasons he says).

2) Say you are driving in 4 or 5th at a comfortable speed and the car in front of you slows a bit to the point that you might get below 1500 RPMs in that gear. The engine starts to sound a bit different (a low rumble). Is it okay to stay in that gear if you know you're about to pick up speed again right away? Am I damaging anything by doing so? I guess I'm thinking why shift down if I'm going to have to shift back up in a second again...

Thanks guys!

trancemission

So far it sounds like you are doing fine. I usually downshift into 3rd before I slip it into neutral. I never hold the clutch in. Dont over think it, the car will tell you right away when you screw up...

bhunter

imho- I am sure others will weigh in---

I think it is really what you are most comfortable with- I have never owned an automatic- and I don't really have a specific shifting strategy-

Shifting behavior becomes an extension of driving- after it becomes second nature- you will use variations on reactions you describe above to attain the most control in the given situation.

If I approach a red light in 5th gear going 55 or so- I would generally downshift to fourth, push in the clutch, brake to a stop then move to first gear (sometimes wait in nuetral if it is a long light)---- sometimes I downshift in a more aggressive fashion (5,4,3 etc) it can be fun-

Bottom line, have a good time, work on smoothing out your reactions, and improving your reaction time (don't get caught trying to think about weather you should be braking or downshifting)

Regarding your question about a slow moving car in front of you- I would downshift- so you can keep the engine closer to its power band if you have to get moving quickly. Also I think shifting is fun, so I am not bothered about having to shift back to 5th. Lugging the engine is not a good driving experience I don't think you will kill the car, unless you lug the crap out of it but it just isn't fun.

Enjoy your new TL- hopefully I will be joining you soon!

caball88

i engine brake if i see that i need to slow down way ahead of time. but say i was in 4th or 5th and all of a sudden the the light goes red and i need to stop quickly i just hit the brakes then as the car is slowing down i hit the clutch and put the thing in nuetral while continuing to brake until the car comes to a stop.

Nandito28

if your going 55 and you see a green light go to yellow ad than red...I would just put it in neutral and ride it all the way to the red light in neutral.

Why would you engine break it...Its a waste of gas and eventually your gonna have to use the breaks!

I admit its fun!!!, but not to do all the time.

TL CHROMETIDE

I just put it in neutral and then brake. If I'm bored, I'll Heel-N-Toe until first gear and then put it in neutral.

By the way, what is engine braking?

ndx2

I'm a novice myself, but this is what I do:

1. If I know I'll be coming to a complete stop (or almost a complete stop), I just leave it in gear and brake until the RPM drops to under 1500, at which point I pop it into neutral.

2. I stay in gear unless the traffic is moderate to heavy - no need to piss off drivers behind me by speeding up super slow like I got all the time in the world.

Let's wait for Southernboy to chime in and see what he says.

Nandito28

Basically its down shifting all the way to a complete stop going from 6 or 5 to 4 to 3 and 2nd, never 1st.

Whats heel n toe?

SouthernBoy

Item #1. Unless traffic or conditions require you to do otherwise, I would just let the car slow down until your RPMs drop below maybe 1500, then just shift to neutral and use your brakes. Obviously, be careful not to cause problems with traffice behind you when doing this.. that's why I mentioned the thing about conditions. Do not "stay on the clutch" while waiting for the light to change. I assume you read my long post about operating a manual transmission. Keeping the clutch in will heat up the release bearing and potentially shorten its life.. don't do this.

Item #2. If you start to slow down and notice that the engine is laboring, most definitely shift into a lower gear. As a rule of thumb, on level surfaces, don't go below 30 MPH in 4th gear.

Hope this helps.

vector7777

Thanks for weighing in guys! Southern Boy- I did read your long post - a couple of times

It seems like I'm doing the right thing by just slipping into neutral before a light. I definitely do get on the brake when doing this...at the very least to show my brake lights to people behind me.

As far as the second question, Southern Boy, do you think around 1500 should be the minimum RPM for a TL? or can I go a little lower than that if I'm just cruising? Sometimes in rush hour I hover at 1100 or 1200 in 2nd...Is this a bad idea? I usually try to avoid getting back in 1st in that situation because the car doesn't always go back into 1st easily. Can 1st and 2nd gear can handle lower RPMs better?

Thanks guys for the insight!

bluenoise

Engine braking on the TL doesn't use any gas, at least not according to the info in the navi diagnostic screen. I see fuel usage go to 0.0 ml/second when coasting. However, it adds additional wear-and-tear that's unnecessary when you have working brakes. It's a lot cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a worn clutch.

As others have said, you'll find different scenarios that cause you to choose different methods. As for me, I'm not one to hold the clutch in for long. On some cars, the clutch plates are still making some contact when disengaged, so I figure this is just more wear that I don't need. When slowing, I tend to pop into neutral and use the brakes to bring me to a stop. If I suspect I will need to accelerate again shortly, I go into whatever gear is going to plant me in the lower end of the power band.

When in traffic, I tend to like to hold a lower gear to keep my RPMs around 4-5k so I can slow by letting off the gas or quickly accelerate again if I think I'm about to get rear-ended by the inattentive driver behind me.

Now, though, I drive a 5AT, but I use the SS to accomplish much of the same things regarding where I like to keep the RPMs in various situations.

vector7777

4-5K RPMs? The only time I've cruised over 3K is in 6th gear. That's alotta revving for sitting in traffic!

SouthernBoy

If you are cruising at 3000 RPM in 6th gear, you would be going 90 MPH. Sixth gear at 60 MPH equates to 2000 RPM.

SouthernBoy

The minimun RPM for your engine to be turning depends upon two primary factors: the gear in which your transmission is operating, and the the driving conditions. What you do not want to do is labor the engine. This can easily be felt as a difficultly to maintain or gain speed.

As a general rule, I would say it's Ok to use 4th gear if you are driving on a level stretch of road at 30+ MPH. For the same conditions, fifth gear would be Ok at 40+ MPH.

Yes, first and second gears can handle lower RPMs because the total gear ratio is considerably lower than in the higher gears.

By not going back into first easily, I assume you are trying to go into first while the car is in motion. The difficulty here is because the speed differences between the drive and driven gears (and therefore the synchronizers) is far greater. Try rev matching and you'll solve this problem (see my post about downshifting).

Burgman

Engine braking on any fuel injected car will not use any fuel. If the computer sees no throttle and the RPMs are above ~900, then it will turn off the injectors. When you put it in neutral to coast to a stop then the computer has to turn the injectors back on so the engine can idle. I still leave the car in a higher gear and let the brakes do most of the work. When the car gets close to stopping then I push in the clutch.

SouthernBoy

I would strongly recommend not to keep your RPMs in the 4-5000 RPM range under normal driving. This is not necessary and besides, it burns more fuel and increases the wear on your engine.

If the clutch disk is still contacting the pressure plate and flywheel at full pedal disengagement, you have a real problem. To see if this is the case, start the engine and get it to operating temperature. Then stop the car, use the emergency brake and cully depress the clutch. Now start the shifter halfway into first gear while letting out the clutch JUST A LITTLE. You will reach a point where the gear teeth will make contact and you'll hear grinding. If you then fully depress the clutch again and the grinding stops, your clutch disk is not contacting the pressure plate or flywheel.

NOTE: DO NOT DO THIS IF YOU ARE ANYWHERE UNSURE OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING. YOU CAN DAMAGE YOUR TRANSMISSION IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.

flipper

I put the car into neutral when I am waiting at a light. Many years ago when I first started driving, I would leave the clutch depressed and wait in first gear. I can see where there might be a safety advantage doing this if someone is out of control behind you. I do not know if I used to inadvertantly ride the clutch a little in the old days, but my clutch would not usually last 100,000 miles. Since I now stay in neutral at lights, I have not replaced a clutch (most cars over 200,000 miles). This is anecdotal but reflects my forty plus years of driving a stick.

With my 2004 TL 6 speed, I find that my natural shift points tend to be higher RPM than than the same car with an automatic. Although it is more fun to drive at the higher RPM shift points, I get better gas mileage when I more closely simulate what the automatic does. Because the TL is so smooth, you can probably feel comfortable doing 40 mph in third, fourth or fifth gear. It is one of the few times I may go against my natural inclinations.

bluenoise

Oops! I seem to have posted a rather confusing batch of points.

One, I don't have a 6MT, so my comments regarding clutch usage, etc. are from all my previous cars. My current ride is the 5AT TL.

My previous car didn't fully disengage the clutch when the pedal was depressed. I found this once when I had the car jacked up off the ground. I depressed the clutch fully and the wheels still turned a bit, though it was easy to stop them as very little torque was being transferred through the clutch. Nonetheless, it was pretty clear that there was some rubbing in the clutch.

Regarding holding the RPMs that high, I'm not saying I cruise for any length of time that way. I'm talking about those "slow-and-go" traffic situations on the freeway where my speed goes from 20-50-20 again in about 10-15 seconds. It's not long enough to upshift out of second, but long enough that my engine climbs into the upper range for several seconds. I was saying that I do that to maximize available emergency torque and also it allows me to regulate my speed without moving between gas and brake. I certainly don't keep the revs that high in normal conditions.

When I said I use the SS to keep my RPMs in certain ranges, this is mostly in those slow-and-go situations and, sometimes, when getting on the freeway via a circular on-ramp where I keep it in 2nd and modulate the gas to shift the car's weight forward and back as I push it around the curve (just for fun) and then punch it as it straightens out.

I didn't mean to muddy the discussion with my previous, misleading comments.

JoganJani

#1 Never ride in Neutral. You loose all the control except braking. I downshift with appropriate RPM and brake all the way till dead stop and then bring in neutral. No foot on clutch and right on brake.

#2 If it is not going to affect the load let it be in the gear you are. If you want to pass, downshift slightly tapping on the gas while you go thru nutral to lower gear to rev match and then pass and up shift again.

vector7777

So I tested out my new TL on a weekend trip

Everyone on the forum said to vary speed for the first 600 miles

keith6945

1.) when coming to a red light from a 4th or 5th gear (how?), normally i'll be at 4th gear, when i get to about 5 car length from the red light or so, i'll apply break and downshift to 3rd, if it was too fast, i'll downshift again to 2nd then make a complete stop. i never put my car in netural because u never know what could happen around u and u may need to accelerate.... i do not like to stay on the clucth because that would wear your clutch out.

2.) i like the car to be quick and responsive, usually i never let the car go down below 2000, if the car is slow in front of you, downshift, or overtake him...

LMK if i'm driving incorrectly...

SouthernBoy

A lot has been mentioned about the safety factor and I agree with much said. Just remember, your best bet is to always be aware of your surroundings. So as you approach the light, you will have checked traffic around you and will know what is coming up behind and beside you. There have been a number of times when I have had to react suddenly at a light to escape a bad situation, the most dangerous being an incident 10 years ago. Had I been listening to the radio and not paying attention to traffic coming up behind the light where I was stopped, I would be here, writing this posting - the loaded flatbed 180-wheeler had no where to go accept my lane.

The natural condition of a clutch assembly is fully engaged (this is how it is when you car is sitting by itself). So natually it stands to reason that this is the condition in which it should exist most all of the time, whether the engine is running or not. Unless there is a reason to keep the car in gear and the clutch depressed, do not do this.

And one other thing. When the light gets ready to turn green for you and you depress the clutch pedal to put you car in gear, start your shifter into third gear first before you shift into first gear. You don't have to go all the way into third gear.. just part of the way (though I tend to do a full shift into third). This is much easier on your first gear synchronizers and will extend their useful life significantly. Same thing for reverse.

bhunter

SouthernBoy-

Can you explain what's happening in the mechanism that makes it easier on the clutch to go to 3rd prior to 1st?

SouthernBoy

It's not the clutch whose life is made easier, it's the first gear synchronizers. In a manual transmission, you have drive gears and driven gears, and they operate at different relative speeds. The job of the synchronizers is to match these speeds so that the dog teeth can then mesh and allow these gears to work in harmony. Synchronizers are friction based in their work.. they impart a clutching (or braking if you wish) action to force gear speeds to match. In the lower gears (such as first and reverse), the difference in gear speed is greater so there is more friction needed by the synchronizers to match gear speeds. You can easliy see this if, when the car is stationary, you quickly depress the clutch and shove the shifter into first gear. You will notice some resistance to your shifter movement. Now try the same thing again, only this time shift into third gear. You should notice much less resistance. Now do these same two tests, but this time have the car coasting maybe 5 MPH.

Check out this link for a simple but decent explanation of the internals of a manual tranny and their relationship an operation.


http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission3.htm

SouthernBoy

Oh, and one thing you never want to do is to downshift like this: take right foot off throttle, depress clutch, shift into chosen lower gear, slowly start releasing the clutch.

Very Very bad. Never do this. Unfortunately, this is how most people downshift. But that's because they don't know any better and have never learned how to do this the right way.

HEK

Bottom line is...engine brake and you will be in the right gear and RPM when you're ready to go....it's the same principal that tractor trailer drivers use to keep the loads from slowing them down, I learned to drive tractor trailers right out of high school and have driven all my cars the same way (except for double clutching, well maybe a few times but you really don't need to, racers call it heel toe)
When you place your shifter in neutral to a stop you basically have lost control of the car...(I will get flamed on this but think about it)..

Nandito28

is heel n toe the same thing as power shifting?

SouthernBoy

Nope. Heel and toe is a technique whereby you use your heel (or toe if you prefer) for the brake and the toe (or heel) for the throttle when you downshift so you can blip the throttle for a rev matched downshift and apply brakes at nearly the same time.

Power shifting is one of the three methods of shifting a manual transmission in drag racing.

Speed shifting - basically shifting normally, but very, very fast.

Power shifting - shifting and using the clutch for shift, but your foot stays on the throttle the entire time.

Bang shifting - shifting without using the clutch and with your foot in the thottle the entire time.

As you can see, none of these are like heel and toe shifting.

WiLLrOx

What is the proper technique because I always downshift like that.

SouthernBoy

When you downshift in the manner I described as being a "never do this", what you are doing is some serious clutch riding. Remember, the engine has spun down at or near idle speed and then your clutch starts to engage again (say in third or fourth gear), and it has to pull the engine back up to the speed at which it would be turning to match wheel and gear speed once the clutch is fully engaged. Try starting out in third gear from a dead stop. Something you'd probably never do, but the wear on the clutch assembly approaches this when you don't rev match during downshifts.

Here's a link to a collection of postings I did on another website and have posted on this site numerous times. Follow the link to post #17. I hope this helps you and answers your question.. let me know if you would like more info.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=downshifting

vector7777

Thought I'd keep asking questions here, instead of starting a new thread.

Does anyone have any tips for heavy traffic?

I sit in Atlanta rush hour daily and I feel like I have to "ride the clutch" quite a bit. For example...imagine you are at a stop on the freeway and the car in front crawls forward a couple of car lengths and then stops again. (Yes this happens almost daily in Atlanta). Is it okay to get on the gas alittle and let the clutch engage just alittle (foot still half way on the clutch but the car is creeping forward) until you crawl up to the car in front of you and stop again? I feel like if I let off the clutch completely....the car will get going too fast for the situation. But on the other hand, I feel guilty for riding the clutch constantly. Is this within "normal use" for the clutch....I know it's a wear part...but just wanted to make sure this wasn't excessive or if there was a better way. I've also been using this system in reverse...i.e. backing out of parking spaces.

I appreciate the feedback!

SouthernBoy

Unfortunately, there's little you can do to avoid what you have described unless you allow a little distance to develop between your car and the one in front of you.. or take back roads (I do this). Just keep your RPMs down and if on a level piece of road, all you really need to do in these cases is get the car moving a little. Then you can coast up to the one in front.

vector7777

Thanks SouthernBoy...We are all better stick drivers because of you