**WhItE-aNgEl**

so as the title states i replaced my clutch because it was slipping like crazy. i bought a luk clutch and had it installed at a freinds shop. the clutch is really really grabby. i stalled leaving the shop lol. anyways things ive noticed for some reason i have to press the clutch all the way to the bottom. before i would press it half way nd my gears went in smooth. is this normal? its gonna take me some time to get use to it. but i love having my performance back it was a PIA having the clutch slip it feels like driving a new car. anyways here some pics of the old clutch

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07tl-s6spd

iTrader: (1)

yea it looks like it was due for a replacement..

ez12a

did you bleed your clutch? super low clutch engagement at the pedal could mean air in the system, or bad master/slave cylinders.

also it's not a good habit of pushing the clutch pedal only half way. It's probably harder now since you have more clutch material and the clutch isnt fully disengaged when it's half way, combined with the low engagement problem.

VQPower37

yea i think pushing clutch in half way is probably not a good idea ... southernboy will prob chime in soon and give u all the dos and donts to get the max life outta ur new clutch

**WhItE-aNgEl**

No I don't know if they did. But what are rhe things/ steps I should do or check after replacing a clutch? Please any help will be greatly appreciated. I know how delicate these cars are with transmissions.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Does the diaphragm springs look like that normally? It looks funny.

+1 for always shifting with pedal fully depressed.

Also any new photos of the new clutch?

SouthernBoy

"before i would press it half way nd my gears went in smooth. is this normal?"
No it's not. I am surprised this was happening and the fact that it was indicates you had problems or someone deliberately adjusted the clutch pedal to do this.

The simplest way to get a very good indication where you initial engagement point begins is to do this. Jack up the front of the car at the center front jack point, enough so that the tires are clear and have someone watch them. Start your engine and put the transmission in first gear. Do the tires start to turn? Now slowly begin to release the clutch and have the person watching the tires tell you as soon as they start to turn. That is your initial engagement point in the practical sense (actually, engagement would have taken place a hair sooner but enough pressure has to be exerted by the pressure plate to overcome the mass of the down-stream drive train components).

You must have enough freeplay both on the initial side and the end side of the clutch pedal in order to avoid undue wear on your clutching components and your release bearing. You must completely disengage the clutch between shifts to remove any contact with the friction areas of the clutching components before you attempt to perform a shift. Not doing this will significantly increase wear on the synchronizers of the selected gear since they are going to be working against a clutch still partially engaged. I can give you these measurements if you want them.

SouthernBoy

I mentioned the fact that you must have the proper amount of freeplay at the top of the clutch pedal's travel and the proper amount of travel at the bottom before initial engagement begins. For this post, I am going to assume you do. Here is a very short list of Do's and Dont's for the proper operation of a manual transmission. If you have questions about any of them, please ask. Also, if any of the others want to chime in with their thoughts they should do so as well.

If you don't know how a clutch works, learn this first and you will easily understand the logic behind what follows. The same for a manual transmission. It's one thing to just tell someone that doing a certain thing is either a good practice or a bad one. But telling them why teaches them and gives credence to the information being passed along.


The normal state of your clutch is fully engaged. It therefore stands to reason that this is the state in which it should be most of the time.

When sitting at a light or stopped in traffic for more than a few seconds, put your transmission in neutral and get your foot off of the clutch. Holding the clutch in for extended periods of time heats up the release bearing and can shorten its life.

Never drive with your foot resting on the clutch pedal. When you do this, you are engaging the release bearing (see above).

Under no circumstances should you hold your car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated when doing this can score your friction surfaces. Use your brake, not your clutch.

Do not "play" your clutch. You sometimes see people sitting at a light rocking their car back and forth with the clutch. Do not do this. It's nearly as bad as holding it on a hill with the clutch.

When starting from a stop, learn to use the lowest engine speed that is practical under the conditions and get your clutch engaged as quickly as possible, but do this smoothly without shock to your drive train or jerking your car. This can take some practice. Your target under normal conditions is to start out somewhere around 1200 RPM (this can vary due to conditions, of course). If you are in the habit of starting off at 2000 RPM, you are going to have to slip your clutch longer as wheel speed catches up to engine speed. This is riding the clutch and something you want to avoid whenever you can.

Avoid skip shifting. Yes it can be done and most of us do it from time to time; some quite a bit. But I would bet most don't know how to do this properly.

When you are sitting at a light or in traffic with the transmission in neutral and the light changes or the traffic starts moving, instead of shifting right away into first, shift into second, or better third, and then into first. This decreases first gear synchronizer wear.

Downshifting.
If you don't know how to properly downshift, then avoid doing this as much as you can. If this is how you downshift, you are doing it incorrectly:

• Remove foot from throttle.
• Disengage clutch and shift to selected lower gear.
• Begin slowly re-engaging clutch.

Once again if the above is how you downshift, then only downshift when you must. The proper way to downshift is to double clutch the downshift and if you are unfamiliar with this technique, it's going to take quite a bit of practice. These are the basic steps of a double clutched downshift:

• Remove foot from throttle.
• Disengage clutch and begin downshift into selected lower gear.
• Pause in neutral gate and blip throttle while re-engaging clutch.
• Disengage clutch again.
• Complete downshift and release clutch.

I get quite a bit of argument from some folks who somehow think this is not necessary and they are correct. It isn't necessary. You can perform a downshift using the first method I described above. So what are the benefits of double clutching a downshift? Significant reduction in clutch and synchronizer wear among others, not to mention you'll know how to do it properly when others don't.

There is another method used for downshifting which is called "rev matching". The difference between rev matching and double clutching is with rev matching, you do not re-engage the clutch in the neutral gate on the downshift. You do blip the throttle to raise engine speed, however. Rev matching reduces clutch wear but does not reduce synchronizer wear.

'Nuff said? Please do ask questions. Now that you have a new clutch, you should expect it to last a very long time and it will if you do your part.

**WhItE-aNgEl**

Yeah I did see them do that. My car was up on the lift and they drove and tested my car in the air while someone looked at my wheels. I was actually scared and thought that could've damaged my car some how. Also I think someone did adjust the prior clutch because when I first bought the car the clutch was good. Not perfect but good. And I never had that jerky second gear. And now I do with the new clutch. I can't smoothly get into second.

Wow thank you soooo much this is extremly helpful! Some of the things you mention I would do like holding my clutch down with the car in first gear while stopped at a light and when up a hill I would hold the clutch just at the point where it won't go back. I won't be doing this anymore. Also I do rev match when I go downshift and I just learned this like 2 months ago and I've been getting pretty good at it. What I have never understand even after watching videos is how to double clutch. If double clutching is better than rev matching I wanna learn how to do it. Also I have a question. When I'm driving and let's say there's a red light coming up and I'm in any gear lets say 5th. I usually put it and neutral and just start braking . Is that bad? Also is putting the car in neutral without engaging the car bad ? Thanks for all your help

Forgot to ask. When I leave my car parked I usully leave it in a gear. 1st gear is that bad?

SouthernBoy

Yeah, holding your car on a hill at a light or stop sign with the clutch is a HUGE no-no. You never want to do this.

"Also I have a question. When I'm driving and let's say there's a red light coming up and I'm in any gear lets say 5th. I usually put it and neutral and just start braking . Is that bad?"
I would avoid this for several reasons but the most important one is that once you have gone into neutral, you have no connection with the drive wheels. This could be dangerous if you need to do something really quick to avoid a bad situation. Best to let the car slow down on its own until engine speed, and road speed, drop off enough to where you can safely disengage things for the stop.

"Also is putting the car in neutral without engaging the car bad ?"
Try this again. I think you are trying to ask if it is Ok to put the car into neutral without using the clutch, but please post your question about this again so I understand what you are asking.

I always put my car in gear along with using the emergency brake when it is parked. I use first always but some prefer to use reverse when on an downgrade and first when on upgrade. I just use first all the time.

Assuming everything is it its proper state of adjustment, this is due to your having to relearn the new setup. Your reflexes and muscle memory are tuned to your prior clutch and now that things have changed, you're fighting the new setup. Spend some time and relearn things and you'll be fine.

**WhItE-aNgEl**

Yeah that's what I meant if its okay to put it in neutral without engaging the clutch. Thanks for all your help. I used to do a lot of the things you mentioned.

SouthernBoy

Only if you can obtain a state of neutral torque between the transmission input and output shafts (think engine and drive wheels). If you are not able to do this, then avoid situations where you do not use your clutch. And I would recommend always using your clutch.

ez12a

This is probably why your clutch is worn, and your clutch components look terrible. Did your flywheel have heat scores?

It's good you're learning proper techniques. Some people seem to think clutches arent consumable and do things like holding the car on a hill using a clutch..a clutch is made with essentially brake pad material. You wouldnt ride your brakes while driving, you wouldnt ride your clutch.

94eg!

Tips:

- When parking: If your car will roll backwards then park with it in reverse. If your car will roll forward, then park with it in 1st. This is to prevent the motor from spinning backwards should the car start to roll. If the motor spins backwards, it will put excess tension on the hydraulic timing tensioner and allow slack to build on the opposite side of the timing belt. This "could" cause one or both cams gears to skip a tooth.

- When sitting at a light: It's better to sit with the transmission in neutral and the clutch pedal released. When you press on the clutch, all that foot pressure is pushing the crankshaft against the thrust bearing. While this isn't going to kill your motor, you will greatly extend the thrust bearing life by leaving the clutch out at red lights.

- Double Clutching: This is used in conjunction with rev matching to reduce synchro wear. Essentially you the exact same thing as rev matching, except you are supposed to rev the engine while the trans is in neutral while simultaneously releasing the clutch and pushing it back in again. This speeds up the main-shaft of the transmission to match the counter-shaft of the desired gear. Not a big deal if you don't use it for normal downshifting at low rpm. It's only REALLY helpful if your down-shifting up to high rpms or past multiple gears where lots of friction would normally be put upon the synchronizer to match shaft speeds.

- Decelerating in gear: In addition to the reasons mentioned by SouthernBoy, it's also increases fuel economy. This is because the ECU shuts off the injectors when the motor is being turned by the mass of the moving car.

Acura_Dude

I definitely understood everything else about your post, thanks btw, but now I have a questions about shifting into a higher gear AND then back in first from a stop. I can understand how it's easier on the synchros to an extent, i'd just like a little more in depth info. I typically see this with older people who drive semi trucks, and dumptrucks etc or if someone has ruined their car. ---> Now when I've driven manuals in the past (friends cars that were beat to hell) I'd have to shift into 2nd or even 3rd and then into 1st and even fight on some occasions to get it back into first. Clutch out, clutch in, shift and omg im finally in 1st. Embarrassing yes. And even reverse was a problem. It's annoying, because many of them don't have the proper technique. Some powershift (no clutch) others downshift without even rev-matching, and no one knows how to double clutch. Back in high school it was the rave to slam through gears as fast as you could and back down when street racing. And it never ceased to amaze me how these clutches lasted as long as they did. I remember I had to drive a couple of my friends around because BOTH had suspended liscense and I had the liscense and it sucked driving the 5spd firebird.

Super easy clutch, but 1st, 2nd, an reverse was stupid annoying. I'd slip RIGHT back into 1st when shifting from 2nd into 3rd, and to them this was normal, but i figured out why when I seem how the car was driven. But the weird thing was the clutch wasn't slipping much at all! And i used to watch them pop the clutch an heat up tires for a quick race down an empty street. I've never street raced in a stick before, I know i'd mess up BIG time or kill myself.

94eg!

It doesn't matter which gear you put it into at idle. The only thing that happens is the main-shaft goes from 750rpm to 0rpm. So, the only difference is which synchro-set your using to stop the main-shaft. I guess if your concerned that your 1st gear synchro is worn, then perhaps using another synchro to stop the main-shaft will give you peace of mind. Again, it's only a 750rpm drop. That's less than your typical low rpm up-shift. I would think the 1st gear synchro gets much MUCH less action than any of the other gears (unless you habitually force it into 1st while decelerating to a stop like my wife).

SouthernBoy

Shifting into a higher gear before going into first:
When you do this, you don't depress the clutch, get into a higher gear, release the clutch then depress it again for the shift into first. You just disengage the clutch shift into, say, third gear then go into first. The reason is because our transmissions are constant mesh by design as have manuals been for before most of you were born (at least the 1950's). This means that all of the gears are in contact with one another (when you shift gears, you are not really shifting, or moving, any gears at all). And these gears revolve at different speeds due to their diameter and number of teeth (which affects gear ratios). Because of the disparity in these ratios, more or less wear can be imparted to the synchronizers when shifting into a gear at stand still.

Another thing you can do, if you don't want to do this, is to just wait a few few more seconds before attempting the shift.

"Now when I've driven manuals in the past (friends cars that were beat to hell) I'd have to shift into 2nd or even 3rd and then into 1st and even fight on some occasions to get it back into first"
This could be due to the first gear synchronizers being shot.

"Some powershift (no clutch)"
Just for your information, when you powershift you do use the clutch. What you don't do is let up on the throttle as you are going through the gears. When you are shifting fast without using the clutch, that is called "bang shifting".

SouthernBoy

Good job 94eg on your posts. Thanks so much for your input.

Sometimes I have a hard time staying on course and remembering my audience when trying to answer questions. I try to take into consideration the level of knowledge and understanding so that I don't just create more confusion in the mind of those who ask questions about these topics. Good to have some other folks join in and offer their verbiage to the discussion.

Acura_Dude

Reply in BLUE.

SouthernBoy

ACURA_DUDE;

Terms can and do change but in general, these are the common terms used for shifting when drag racing;

Speed Shifting:
Shifting normally but doing it VERY fast. In other words, you use the clutch and you do let up on the throttle when shifting.

Power shifting:
Same as Speed Shifting except for the fact that your foot stays planted on the throttle the entire duration of the race as you go through the gears.

Bang Shifting.
Same as Power Shifting except for the fact that you don't use the clutch when shifting. In order to do this correctly, you really need to make alterations to the synchronizer sets.

Acura_Dude

^ I REMEMBER READING THIS!!!! That just jogged my memory. I remember a read those descriptions some months back. You've definitely contributed a LOT to the forum.

SouthernBoy

Thanks for the nice comment.

Most of us do what we can to help others out with questions about all manner of things. In turn, we also learn and improve as well. Each of us brings something to the table and that is a good thing. No one knows everything and I would tell anyone to avoid those who think they do. A measure of honest humility serves us all well.

94eg!

SouthernBoy, you da man!

jeeva86

When braking and decelerating, when should you lower a gear? I do it about 1.2k as I'm braking and slowly engaging the clutch then shifting down. Is that optimal?

I thought slowing down in neutral saves gas compared to engine braking?

ez12a

When you "slowly engage the clutch" are you rev matching at all? Even though you are braking you still need a tiny blip to get it to the lower gear's RPM (even though 1.2k is fairly low, you might as well go into neutral at this point and not bother downshifting.). Also, "slowly engaging a clutch" isnt necessarily a good thing if you introduce excessive slip to get the next lower gear. As southernboy states you should minimize the time your foot is on the clutch pedal while maintaining smooth driving.

This may just be me, but when I brake to stop for a red light, i stay in gear until i have to shift into neutral, say around 1.5k or lower. I dont bother downshifting into lower gears if i know i'm coming to a complete stop. Unnecessary shifting, imo.

If i'm slowing for a right turn at an intersection, i stay in gear and then go into neutral, double clutch and rev match, and go into 3rd or 2nd.

Coasting in gear will save you gas since the ECU shuts off fuel when engine braking. If you're coasting in neutral, you have to maintain an idle which in turn burns gas. Plus coasting in neutral is not ideal if you need to make some sudden evasive maneuvers.

94eg!

No, slowing in neutral uses gas to idle the motor. When decelerating in gear, the injectors are shut off until you get down around 1200rpm (or maybe less on newer cars).

When slowing down to a complete stop, there is really no good reason to downshift at all. Letting the clutch out to "help" slow the car is bad for the clutch as your forcing the clutch to accelerate the engine each time. Also rowing down through the gears as you come to a stop puts unnecessary wear on each syncrho you use as it forces the main shaft to accelerate to match wheel speed for that gear each time.

If your comming to a stop, just let it slow with the engine in the gear you were traveling. Then when the rpm gets down around 1000-1200, put the clutch in and move to neutral. This is best for your clutch, syncrhos and fuel economy.

If your just slowing for a calm low-speed turn, I find it's best to slow/brake while still in my current cruising gear. Then during turn-in, while letting of the brakes, put the clutch in and move to the gear you accelerating out of the turn in. Shifting at low rpm helps reduce synchro wear because there is less rpm difference between the two gears. This prolongs the synchros, especially if your going form 6th to 3rd or 2nd in turns.

Now if you really want to get fancy, you can rev-match and double clutch these down shifts as you slow and/or as you turn in. This puts minimal to zero wear on both the clutch and sycnrhos if done correctly, while providing even more engine braking. Of course it takes quite a bit of practice to get good at, but it's really worth it.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Hmn... I read on hypermiling that coasting in neutral is better than coasting in gear in terms of getting a good gas mileage. I guess someone should go correct that, because I thought the same as you folks: coasting [decelerating] should theoretically shut off the injectors as the accelerator pedal isn't being applied.

But... then I thought of this after. So long as the engine is running, wether in gear or not, isn't fuel being sent to the pistons anyway? Isn't the car still producing power even when you're letting off the accelerator? I figured so long as there is piston movement there is fuel being used.

anthracite_ftw

To OP: It does take a lot of practice to quickly and seamlessly double-clutch your downshifts, but I can not recommend it highly enough.
First off, it's really satisfying once you become proficient. I know I feel like a racecar driver when executing a quick double-clutch.
If you plan to keep the car long-term, this practice will be very beneficial to your wallet as well. Synchronizers will be more likely to last the life of the car, instead of becoming finnicky and requiring a rebuild later on.
If you drive a TL anywhere with hills and traffic, downshifting to first can be a very handy tool. Try this without double-clutching, and you'll wreak havoc on the first gear synchro. With a smooth double clutched rev match, the first gear downshift is achieved with no harm done.

SouthernBoy

I do what es12a and 94eg do. I just let the car slow down, using the brakes when needed until my engine is somewhere around 1200 to 1500 RPM (usually the former) and then just slip the transmission into neutral UNLESS surrounding conditions suddenly change or demand I do otherwise. I don't do this to save fuel, just because it makes the most sense to me.

As for downshifting as I approach a light, traffic slow down or stop, once again I do this when the situation calls for it in my opinion. In other words, this is a dynamic decision, not something that is cast in stone and matter of fact. And when I downshift, I virtually always double clutch the downshift for reasons I have given so many times on these forums. Do I downshift all the way into first gear when in motion. Rarely but then again, this also depends upon conditions.

94eg!

No. Fuel is not used or required when decelerating in gear above 1200rpm. The forward momentum of the vehicle keeps the engine turning, which keeps all the systems of the vehicle operational. Honda has been doing this since at least the late 80's. Here it is explained in my 92 Civic shop manual. As you can see it depends on how Honda setup that motor...

Now typically race tuned motors will not shut off injectors during decel. The wasted fuel actually cools the combustion chamber (yes even though ignition is still taking place).

hondaacurapro

04-08 TL's use a self adjusting clutch system. They have a weird design to keep clutch engagement height the same throughout the friction disks life. It uses a sensor spring, an adjusting ring, three coil springs, and a compensation spring to accomplish this. When the clutch is installed there are special tools needed. Basically you depress the fingers on the diaphram of the pressure plate while tightening the bolts. If this is not done it can cause the self adjusting system to malfunction ( causing a pedal that needs to be pushed too far to disengage ). I have seen guys install the clutch without the tools and have success. However I would not reccomend this. I am not blaming the installer for the problem. However I would ask if the special tools were used. They might not have know they were needed. Here is a warning out of the Maintenance manual

NOTICE: You must use the special tools required to remove and install the clutch pressure plate or you will irreversibly damage it.

These are the tool part numbers

Pressure plate compressor 07AAE-P8EA000
Pressure plate compressor adapter 07AAK-P8EA000
Driver 07749-0010000

94eg!

@ HondaPartsNow.com

$260 + $45 + $25 =

94eg!

The 04 manual shows the third tool is 07AAF-P8EA000 at $57 as the clutch alignment shaft, but this looks to be included in the LUK kit (though they don't look the same). Why would they include a clutch alignment tool if it's not the one needed in the service manual (which looks to have a special step to stop the compression at some magic point). Other than that, you could probably find a tool at harbor freight to do the job of the $260 tool that presses the clutch in, along with your old release bearing and a socket to act as a driver.

I looked up the whole process for replacing this clutch, and it's just crazy. The self adjusting pressure plate is not worth all this ridiculous hassle. One of the aftermarket companies needs to make a clutch kit that does away with this feature. So what if you have to adjust the pedal every 100k miles.

Abe_Froman

iTrader: (5)

Southernboy,

I read this post of yours the other day and realized that I had been downshifting improperly the past two years. Today I did it the proper way (your way) and I can honestly say that now I understand what you mean when you say that downshifts should be very smooth. This is how I used to downshift:

1. Take foot off gas
2. Press clutch down
3. shift into lower gear
4. blip throttle while releasing clutch

I didn't know that you blip the throttle while re-engaging the clutch. I would always engage clutch (all the way down of course) and then blip the throttle while disengaging the clutch.

The hard part though is that my muscle memory is so used to doing it the other way that its taking me a while to adapt to double clutching.

ez12a

what you were doing before was a tweaked single clutch downshift. If i were to single clutch downshift, the blip comes as i move the gear lever to the lower gear (with clutch pedal pressed in), not when the transmission's already in the lower gear.

But do continue practicing and using the double clutch. Your TL will thank you for it.

Abe_Froman

iTrader: (5)

Thanks,

Could you please explain the mechanics behind why this is done (see bold). Why is blipping the throttle before its in the lower gear any different than when its in neutral? I thought that as long as the clutch was pressed down it didn't matter what gear the car was in.

If you don't understand what I'm asking, I could elaborate more for you.

94eg!

ez12a is talking about a single clutch shift.

This is commonly referred to as a rev-match down shift. It takes wear and harshness out of the clutch. It doesn't really matter when you blip the throttle as long as your at the right rpm when you let out the clutch.

Either way, double clutch down-shifting is better for everything. It just takes practice.

SouthernBoy

First off, you have this part backwards. "I would always engage clutch (all the way down of course) and then blip the throttle while disengaging the clutch." When you depress the clutch pedal to the floor, you disengaging the clutch and when letting the pedal out (up), you are engaging the clutch.

If your enumerated description above is really what you were doing, your car would jerk because you would be suddenly raising engine speed while there was partial (or complete) contact with the clutching components. What you need to remember is that when you are shifting into the selected lower gear, you pause in the neutral gate and while there you blip the throttle and at the same time release the clutch. What this does is spin up the transmission input shaft (main shaft) so that the gears affixed to it are as close to the speed of the gears on the lay (counter) shaft as possible. This reduce synchronizer wear in a huge way. It also will reduce clutching component wear.

Glad you've learned from this post and are willing to adjust your technique.

94eg!

Here's a neat trick... If your over 3000rpm when you blip the throttle in neutral, the TL's ECU will hold the rpm for the next lower gear. Example:

Traveling in 3rd gear @ 35mph/2500rpm
- clutch into neutral
- blip throttle to 4000rpm
- revs should drop to 3700rpm and hold
- clutch into 2nd and go

It's a pretty cool feature. I don't know if any other Hondas do this (07 Si does not). Oh and here is a gear/speed chart for the TL so you can familiarize yourself with your transmission. You can use it to figure out some down-shift scenarios to practice the next time your out driving:

http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...=0&trannytype=

**WhItE-aNgEl**

Okay I'm a lil confuse. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Double clutching is better than rev matching correct?

Double clutching :

1. Release gas pedal
2. Engage clutch
3. Put in neutral
4. Release clutch
5. Blip gas pedal
6. Go to lower gear

Rev matching:

1. Engage clutch
2.blip gas pedal
3. Go to lower gear
4. Release clutch

Please correct me if I'm wrong thanks