RR's UOA: Gold GC 0W30 w/LC at 7752 miles
01-31-2006, 11:42 PM
#1
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RR's UOA: Gold GC 0W30 w/LC at 7752 miles
This is from our member Road Rage, who is on an extended leave from this forum.
Car had 17500 at the time of the sample. Honda S2000 OEM filter was used. MID showed 30% remaining. Wear appears excellent for such a low-mileage engine.
No viscosity reading but should be between 12-12.5cst; baseline is 12.2cst for Gold GC. TBN should be at least 5 on the ASTM D-4739 protocol used by Oil Analyzers.
Car is currently running Syntec 5W20 for the same interval with LC and the OEM S2000 filter as a test.
Mike
edit mod: vp911
Code:
Miles on Oil: 7752 miles Gold GC 0W30 with LC at the recommended dosages Al 1 Ba 2 B 26 Cd 0 Ca 1242 Cr 2 Cu 44 Fe 14 Pb 3 Mg 504 Mn 1 Mo 1 Ni 0 P 742 K 2 Si 7 Ag 0 Na 4 Sn 0 Ti 0 V 0 Zn 895 Soot 0 Oxidation 41/2=20.5% Nitration 96/2=48% Sulfur 28 Water Neg Glycol Neg
No viscosity reading but should be between 12-12.5cst; baseline is 12.2cst for Gold GC. TBN should be at least 5 on the ASTM D-4739 protocol used by Oil Analyzers.
Car is currently running Syntec 5W20 for the same interval with LC and the OEM S2000 filter as a test.
Mike
edit mod: vp911
02-02-2006, 08:05 PM
#2
No further info. Based upon our past conversations, his car probably had close to 30K at the time of sampling, most likely, the Honda S2000 OEM filter was used. Car is his daily driver, used for FWY commute. MID showed 30% oil life remaining.
Looks decent in my eyes but can be a bit better. Don't know what's up with the higher Nitration reading, perhaps the lab doesn't have the correct copy of the reference oil (two versions of GC)...but oxidation number looks about right.
Looks decent in my eyes but can be a bit better. Don't know what's up with the higher Nitration reading, perhaps the lab doesn't have the correct copy of the reference oil (two versions of GC)...but oxidation number looks about right.
02-02-2006, 09:09 PM
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Its very thick....too thick in my opinion for best performance in this engine. Its about 40% thicker than your average 5W20. 
Remember too that this isn't the original Green GC, but the latest Gold colored GC. You can tell that it is of the newer version by the higher Mg content.
Remember too that this isn't the original Green GC, but the latest Gold colored GC. You can tell that it is of the newer version by the higher Mg content.
02-02-2006, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Wan
bump for the updated info that I received from RR. For such a low-mileage TL, the wear values are great. Any comments? 
The Fe and Cu wear numbers look in line with what I've seen on my car using the Motorcraft 5w-20. Virtually the same for Cu. RR's Fe of 1.8 ppm/1000mi @17,500 miles is a bit better than my 2.1 ppm/1000mi @ 20,000 miles. And my wear numbers were taken along with a low viscosity possibly due to fuel dilution.
Based on the "known" fuel dilution issue of Honda V6s, Isn't it a stretch to say that this UOA viscosity is within 12.0 to 12.5 Cst?
Before RR had left the forum, he recommended that it's best to reduce the spread between the viscosity numbers, or does this only apply to non-synthetic oils?
Will RR be back on this forum? I know the floor jack thread bothered him, but his knowledge and input was most always appreciated.
02-02-2006, 09:12 PM
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In my last car *cough GM cough* the GC was a good thing because of all the piston slap!
Have you read any posts on the gold vs green recently? I saw there were a few good UOAs with it.
Have you read any posts on the gold vs green recently? I saw there were a few good UOAs with it.
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02-02-2006, 09:28 PM
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Chuck,
Sorry, I forgot to send you an e-mail to tell you about this report...
MID for the TL tops out at 10,000 miles if I remember correctly. Since the MID only drops in 10% increments, the oil life percentage can be anywhere between 20-30% remaining, correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, not all Honda V6 engines have fuel problems. Some of them do. GC is quite resistant to shearing compared to most oils due to its composition, which I'll discuss to the best of my abilities later. Even with some minor fuel dilution, it tends to stay >11.5cst most of the time, so maybe I should've said anywhere between 11.5-12.5cst.
Mineral oils generally have a low VI to start out with and also have lousy pour points as well.
The spread of the viscosity grades is true. Take your 5W30 dino oil for example. The blender would probably start out with a 4.5cst mineral base oil, Viscosity Index Improver (VII), additive pack, and 1-2% ester for seal swell and perhaps some pour point depressants. The final viscosity of the oil will be between 10-11cst for most 5W30 dinos that pass the specs for fuel economy, etc, etc. A 10W30 would start out with a heavier weight base oil, less VII, followed by the additive pack, Pour Point Depressants, etc. Generally, less VII usually results in a more stable viscosity over time.
Of course, there is a difference between good quality and poor quality VII. Some polymer thickeners used in oil will thin out more during use than others.
For a syn oil, it is blended a bit differently. For GC for example, which is mainly PAO and some ester, the blender can probably start out with a heavier weight base oil and still be able to meet the low-temp requirements for a 0w due to the characteristics of a PAO based oil. Thus, fewer VII is needed plus the VII used is probably of a higher quality. More pour point depressants were probably used as well, but dunno.
Many PAO based synthetic 10W30 oils can be labeled as a SAE30 synthetic, if you think about it...
For synthetic blends such as MC, Schaeffer's etc, they're built a little differently. GrpII+ with a good dose of PAO (20-25%) does not require as much VII. I don't know the composition of MC though, but Schaeffer's is 20-25% PAO IIRC.
An oil blender told me all this a while back, so I'll double check the info and edit if I need to.
Don't know if RR will be back. He's very busy.
BTW, this IS a report of the Gold GC. Looks good to me.
Sorry, I forgot to send you an e-mail to tell you about this report...
MID for the TL tops out at 10,000 miles if I remember correctly. Since the MID only drops in 10% increments, the oil life percentage can be anywhere between 20-30% remaining, correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, not all Honda V6 engines have fuel problems. Some of them do. GC is quite resistant to shearing compared to most oils due to its composition, which I'll discuss to the best of my abilities later. Even with some minor fuel dilution, it tends to stay >11.5cst most of the time, so maybe I should've said anywhere between 11.5-12.5cst.
Mineral oils generally have a low VI to start out with and also have lousy pour points as well.
The spread of the viscosity grades is true. Take your 5W30 dino oil for example. The blender would probably start out with a 4.5cst mineral base oil, Viscosity Index Improver (VII), additive pack, and 1-2% ester for seal swell and perhaps some pour point depressants. The final viscosity of the oil will be between 10-11cst for most 5W30 dinos that pass the specs for fuel economy, etc, etc. A 10W30 would start out with a heavier weight base oil, less VII, followed by the additive pack, Pour Point Depressants, etc. Generally, less VII usually results in a more stable viscosity over time.
Of course, there is a difference between good quality and poor quality VII. Some polymer thickeners used in oil will thin out more during use than others.
For a syn oil, it is blended a bit differently. For GC for example, which is mainly PAO and some ester, the blender can probably start out with a heavier weight base oil and still be able to meet the low-temp requirements for a 0w due to the characteristics of a PAO based oil. Thus, fewer VII is needed plus the VII used is probably of a higher quality. More pour point depressants were probably used as well, but dunno.
Many PAO based synthetic 10W30 oils can be labeled as a SAE30 synthetic, if you think about it...
For synthetic blends such as MC, Schaeffer's etc, they're built a little differently. GrpII+ with a good dose of PAO (20-25%) does not require as much VII. I don't know the composition of MC though, but Schaeffer's is 20-25% PAO IIRC.
An oil blender told me all this a while back, so I'll double check the info and edit if I need to.
Don't know if RR will be back. He's very busy.
BTW, this IS a report of the Gold GC. Looks good to me.
02-02-2006, 10:04 PM
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Mike,
Thanks for the detailed response. You are right, the MID can top out at 10,000 miles. I found this in the 3G garage under the Road Rage Journals (how appropriate.)
"The TL has a Maintenance Minder system that automatically monitors the vehicle's unique operating condition to indicate to the driver when maintenance is required. Maintenance alerts are presented when the ignition is first turned on, not while driving (to prevent driver distraction). The system monitors engine operating conditions such as fluid temperatures and engine speed to determine the proper service intervals. The Multi-Info Display (MID) located below the fuel and engine temperature gauges in the instrument cluster indicates the remaining percentage of engine oil life, and then shows service is due with a "wrench" icon. A percentage-based countdown to the next service is displayed when the car is within 15 percent of the end of the service interval. A letter and number code is displayed to indicate the specific type of service that is required. If the service is missed, the MID indicates past-due mileage to express the urgency of the required service to the driver."
The system is designed to eliminate unnecessary maintenance procedures, environmental impact and expenses, while ensuring that important service issues are addressed. In some cases, oil change intervals can extend to a maximum of 10,000 miles, which could spare the owner considerable money and inconvenience over the life of the car. The owner-resettable system monitors all normal service parts and systems, including oil, oil filter, tire rotation, air-cleaner, automatic transmission fluid, spark plugs, timing belt, coolant, brake pads and more."
So, since the MID showed 30% left at 7,700 miles it's safe to assume that the car experienced some of the most benign operating conditions possible with few or no short trips, no extremely cold or hot ambient temperatures, little or no stop and go traffic and few, if any, WOT runs. It doesn't seem like a a good measure of how GC will perform when stresses (besides total miles). And it doesn't seem like a representative sample of how most TL drivers operate their cars.
With that said, this UOA is an excellent baseline of what can be expected under optimum conditions with an excellent oil. I feel much better about my previous UOAs now.
Thanks for the detailed response. You are right, the MID can top out at 10,000 miles. I found this in the 3G garage under the Road Rage Journals (how appropriate.)
"The TL has a Maintenance Minder system that automatically monitors the vehicle's unique operating condition to indicate to the driver when maintenance is required. Maintenance alerts are presented when the ignition is first turned on, not while driving (to prevent driver distraction). The system monitors engine operating conditions such as fluid temperatures and engine speed to determine the proper service intervals. The Multi-Info Display (MID) located below the fuel and engine temperature gauges in the instrument cluster indicates the remaining percentage of engine oil life, and then shows service is due with a "wrench" icon. A percentage-based countdown to the next service is displayed when the car is within 15 percent of the end of the service interval. A letter and number code is displayed to indicate the specific type of service that is required. If the service is missed, the MID indicates past-due mileage to express the urgency of the required service to the driver."
The system is designed to eliminate unnecessary maintenance procedures, environmental impact and expenses, while ensuring that important service issues are addressed. In some cases, oil change intervals can extend to a maximum of 10,000 miles, which could spare the owner considerable money and inconvenience over the life of the car. The owner-resettable system monitors all normal service parts and systems, including oil, oil filter, tire rotation, air-cleaner, automatic transmission fluid, spark plugs, timing belt, coolant, brake pads and more."
So, since the MID showed 30% left at 7,700 miles it's safe to assume that the car experienced some of the most benign operating conditions possible with few or no short trips, no extremely cold or hot ambient temperatures, little or no stop and go traffic and few, if any, WOT runs. It doesn't seem like a a good measure of how GC will perform when stresses (besides total miles). And it doesn't seem like a representative sample of how most TL drivers operate their cars.
With that said, this UOA is an excellent baseline of what can be expected under optimum conditions with an excellent oil. I feel much better about my previous UOAs now.
02-02-2006, 10:12 PM
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Chuck,
I think that with the intro of the new Oil Life Monitors, many people have found that they can actually extend their drains much longer than they thought they can.
Although this isn't the best example, I'll use the GM Oil Life Monitor as an example. Most drivers are now going approx. 8500 miles in between drains using this system, but this system uses an upper limit of 12500 miles.
One of the UOAs posted on BITOG was of a 04 Silverado with a 5.3L V8 engine. The owner used this truck as his "work" truck. Most trips were 8 miles or less, and it experienced the occassional WOT. Oil was in use for about 13 months (should've changd it at 12 months), and 12500 miles. UOA was done, and the oil did reasonably well. (Havoline 5W30) Thus, if the engine lacked an OLM, many would've thought the truck required a 6mo interval due to the short trips. Apparently it did not.
However, the beauty of the OLMs is that they make the 3mo/3K interval irrelevant. Good example: One minivan that I know of, was used for about 1800 miles over a <2 mo period. Mostly 1 mile trips, lots of idling at a bus stop, and the Oil Life Monitor on the van (GM) called for a change at 1800 miles.
Mike
I think that with the intro of the new Oil Life Monitors, many people have found that they can actually extend their drains much longer than they thought they can.
Although this isn't the best example, I'll use the GM Oil Life Monitor as an example. Most drivers are now going approx. 8500 miles in between drains using this system, but this system uses an upper limit of 12500 miles.
One of the UOAs posted on BITOG was of a 04 Silverado with a 5.3L V8 engine. The owner used this truck as his "work" truck. Most trips were 8 miles or less, and it experienced the occassional WOT. Oil was in use for about 13 months (should've changd it at 12 months), and 12500 miles. UOA was done, and the oil did reasonably well. (Havoline 5W30) Thus, if the engine lacked an OLM, many would've thought the truck required a 6mo interval due to the short trips. Apparently it did not.
However, the beauty of the OLMs is that they make the 3mo/3K interval irrelevant. Good example: One minivan that I know of, was used for about 1800 miles over a <2 mo period. Mostly 1 mile trips, lots of idling at a bus stop, and the Oil Life Monitor on the van (GM) called for a change at 1800 miles.
Mike
02-02-2006, 10:30 PM
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I have a brother in law who is a car fanatic and is also quite technical as he is in the medical field and used to be a computer technician for a major vendor. I've brought out all of my UOAs and explained what they meant. No way, no how is he going to change from 3,000 mile oil changes. Damn the Oil Life Monitors!
I, on the other hand, am convinced that I can follow the TL MID with my driving style and get good UOAs. From what I've seen with the MC 5W20 Synblend, it may lose a bit of viscosity and flashpoint, but it still protects my engine just as well as the GC in a TL operated under ideal conditions.
In a previous post you wrote "Many PAO based synthetic 10W30 oils can be labeled as a SAE30 synthetic, if you think about it." I have and I don't get it. I thought the "30" in 10W30 indicates that it meets the high temperature requirements just like a SAE30 oil.
I, on the other hand, am convinced that I can follow the TL MID with my driving style and get good UOAs. From what I've seen with the MC 5W20 Synblend, it may lose a bit of viscosity and flashpoint, but it still protects my engine just as well as the GC in a TL operated under ideal conditions.
In a previous post you wrote "Many PAO based synthetic 10W30 oils can be labeled as a SAE30 synthetic, if you think about it." I have and I don't get it. I thought the "30" in 10W30 indicates that it meets the high temperature requirements just like a SAE30 oil.
02-02-2006, 10:58 PM
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Well, what I should've said is that many PAO based, 10W30 synthetics are very similar to a SAE30 synthetic. This is because a 10W30 PAO based synthetic needs very few or no VII to achieve the 10w cold temp spec while being a 30wt at 100C. Just look at the Product Data Sheet for Mobil 1 for example, notice the lower VI for the 10W30.
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