I blew this one wide open in the svtperformance.com Cobra forums in 2002.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0112.pdf

Now 5w20's, have come a long way, but you need full disclosure as you weigh your options.

 

hey if you look at that PDF file... that signature doesnt belong there. There is no way that signature in any way say GEORGE GREEN.. its looks more like CRIS......

 

I looked.

He signed it "for" George Green (note the "for" after his signature).

 

This really is not a techie Forum methinks.

 

This comment was interesting: "EPA is setting these limits because it is inappropriate for a manufacturer to select a significantly better oil for fuel economy testing than the typical customer will be using in their vehicles." I'd like to learn more about those oils...

I didn't see the link to the Cobra.

 

Here is the association: When the 2003 supercharged SVT Cobras first appeared (got mine in June 2002), many owners queried about the 5w20 recommendation, and when they called SVT to ask about using synthetic lubricants, they were told "no, it is not recommended, because the 2003 engine is made to different tolerances". This was, and is, utter rot, as the mechanical tolerances of the 2001 Cobra, which used a 5w30, were identical - I recommended against using the 5w20 minoils until some data showed them to be acceptable, and when I found the EPA letter, it all fell into place: the link is obvious - Ford went this way to be good citizens, up their CAFE so they could sell more Navigators, and bow to the EPA, not in the interest of low engine wear on the SVT Cobras. I only use Amsoil 0w30 or Lubrication Engineers 10w30 in my car, and the wear metals in my used oil are spectacularly low. As I have posted here previously, the do endorse the Motocraft 5w20 synblend for the TL's, as it has proven its meddle in many UOA's. Hope this is helpful to you.

 

Thanks. A lot of pieces of the puzzle. EPA is pushing 5w20 for fuel economy and lower emissions - which are good things if the oil holds up. Manufacturers comply to raise CAFE and stay out of the regulatory doghouse. That Ford would use it in the Cobra provides some indication of the pressure. The letter basically says "Don't try to sneak one by us using good oil in your test cars, because significantly lower quality oil is generally available to consumers in stores and at your dealerships." That really stands out.

 

Aegir - you got it right, bud. Funny thing was. I had said "bunk" about no synoil when asked at svtperformance.com, I made my case, but some could not make the mental leap. It took this letter for me to be "validated". Ha ha.

I would also use this case to extrapolate to the MID, and why I plan to essentially ignore it, other than doing more maintenance than required, and keeping all my data in a spreadsheet. The mfr's are looking out for their best interests, not necessarily ours. Think about it before you go 9000 miles on some Valvoline from Target.

 

Whatever. Let's cut to the chase.

I have 6 qts. of Mobil 1 0W-20 on the shelf waiting for first oil change. I have 700 miles on my TL 5AT. I believe in Mobil 1 after 15 years of using it in my 1990 Maxima that had no measurable wear since new (and little metal in used oil which I get analyzed along with the yacht oil). I also used it in my air cooled, high performance motorcycles and saw the temperature drop- a telling indicator.

I believe there is a line of diminishing returns in going to thicker viscosity, especially in air cooled engines (no thermostatic temperature control). Eventually, the extra drag fights the viscosity advantages and temperatures rise. Higher temp = higher friction = higher temp=oil breakdown.

If I understand the point you are trying to make: the mftr only uses the 5W-20 to get his emissions and CAFE ratings and this lube is not the best for the longevity of the engine?

I am assuming (actually from a previous post you made) that you feel 30 weight is more practical to use in the TL. Does this go for both min and synth? If so, do you have more than a gut feeling to support this notion?

I want to use what is best for my engine to have a long, trouble-free life.

I'm starting to think that you think that Acura has compromised engine longevity for better ratings? Am I on track?

XP

 

I wish the Oil Journals were up at s2ki.com as this is repeat territory for me.

Consider a few things:
1) 0w20 is much more likely to shear down to 0-15 as compared to even a 5w20. I personally would not use it.
2) My only recommendation in a 5w20 is the Motorcraft - your experiences with M1 are fine, but it does not change the facts of the chemistry, and I think Conoco has produced a better product than E-M. Both are excellent.
3) I would not use a 5w20 minoil in my car, unless LE made it. They simply use the best mineral oil base stocks, which are mid-continent paraffins.
4) I like a 10w30 such as LE's 8130 because it has the cold temp performance of a mineral 5w, but is much more shear-resistant. Synoils such as PAO's can have some difficulty with additive uptake, and their protection varies by temperature (not the viscosity, the additive chemistry). That is why LE combines the best paraffinics with PAO's, to create an optimum hydrid. Its wear performance is unbelievable. And, it is preferable to use the same oil year-round, as the various metals bed in, and switching to a different vis and especially a different lube/add pack can actually cause scavenging of wear metals into the oil. It makes baselining and UOA (used oil analysis) consistent. Switching oils all the time is like having 5 girlfriends - confusing.
5) The smaller the difference between the Winter (w) grade and the summer grade in a multi-vis, the better. Remember that viscosity improvers (polymers) often have to be added to oils to get the 15 point and up vis spreads, and the polymers will shear down over time. A 15w is producing very littlke bearing protection, and makes me nervous - feeling lucky?
6) Regarding the dimishing returns: I have not studied air-cooled, so I have no comment. However, the pumpability of a 30w synoil at high temp is only marginally greater than a 20w; and, synoils inherently are lower in heat generation because their molecules tend to roll over each since they are mono-molecular, where a minoil is polymolecular, and the bashing around actually generates heat.
7) I could easily live with Motorcraft's 5w20. I probably won't flog this car, as my S2000 takes car of my racing instincts. It gets 10w30 LE 8130.

 

Me, too.

You said, I think, that you are an engineer working in the field of mechanics and lubrication.

Are you affiliated with LE at all? I haven't heard of them until now.

XP

 

Not at all. I did sell 2 cases to members at S2KI of the LE-607 gear lube, at cost, and then the site sponsors started to carry it. I posted in the Oil Journals that I woudl never have a conflict of interest, and that after the 2nd case was sold, I was done. I had to keep my reputation for impartiality. Funny thing is, few of LE's products are even packaged for private use - most are in gallons or 55 gallon drums. After my review and endorsement of the LE-607 90w gear oil, they actually saw a spike in the sales chart. From one post from me. It was amazing how fast the product caught on (I do have a pretty good rep for being straight-up). I also have access to a world-clas research facility, where I am an IT Director, with many gearhead engineers, and little handy gizmos like gas chromotagraphs, mass spectrometers, scanning electron microscopes, and that sort of thing.

Do you think it possible that my 9-speaker, 13 channeled surround sound system is built around a McLaren? TAG-McLaren makes high-end audio equipment of the highest quality. They also make engines for Formula 1 racing. Get my point?
There are probably any number of products of great performance many people have never heard of, but that speaks more to the ignorant individual, rather than the product's quality. I include myself in that category, as LE was something I stumbled onto during a research effort several years ago trying to reduce machine downtime in a billion dollar plant. I am sure there are mfr's of ladies' panties I have never heard of that are just the best thing ever.

LE is sold in over 60 countries worldwide, and has the highest of reputation among lubrication engineers, or tribologists. They have been primarily selling products for professionals, over the road truckers, and for use in mega-buck industrial equipment. They have been in business since 1955. They engineer lubricants using whatever they consider to be the best ingredients, and then price it accordingly - nearly all of the companies you have heard of do it the opposite way. They design to a price point. But LE 8130 is about $4-5 in a case of 24, delivered. So it is competitive. But I had to buy a 35# pail to get their 75w90 synlube gear oil. It looks badazz it my garage, though.

Check out the Oil Journals when S2KI.com finsihes its infrastructure upgrade - you will pick up some useful info to help you make a decision on what to use in your car(s). In the meantime, their Canadian website is better than the US one: www.lubeng.com.

Cheers!

 

RR, quick question from a different post..

does the amasol in 607 contain any toxins that could be detrimental to ones health? me and another s2ki member had a tragic differential change where the drain bolt miraculously came undone (oops) and dumped the pink stuff all over us. it was also a 90F day and we werent able to shower for at least another 4 hours.
later that evening i was overcome with body aches and chills, along with the worst headache ever! (flu-like symptoms BUT without the coughing/sneezing/runny nose part) it'd hurt whenever i moved my eyes! my stomach kept cramping, and i showed no signs of diarreah. if anything i was severly constipated. needless to say i was hurting really really bad. the aches and chills got so bad that during the night i felt the urge to dial 911 and get an ambulance to come pick me up.
this lasted for about 2 days, and i was totally fine after 5 days. since i was very ill, i thought it could have been something i ate from the night before (food poisoning), but my fiance was totally fine.

now for the kicker.. i called that s2ki member that i had the mini tech day with.. turned out he was very ill too! the only thing we shared was that we were both covered in that noxious pink goop. mind you, i did not ingest any of this stuff, but i did marinate in it.

i dont have any more quarts of the 607 in front of me, can you please check to see if theres a health warning label on it? or perhaps maybe you know of the effects of amasel?

thanks!

 

The MSDS is available on the LE website: www.le-inc.com. I am not a physician, but there is nothing toxic that I can see, certainly not that would be absorbed through the skin. It is essentially a kersosene carrier in a mineral oil base. I have found out what Almasol is by the way: aluminum/magnesium/silicate. Kind of like some antacids! I think it is far more likely that you got a bacterial infection via hand contact with contaminated surface, as your symptoms have all the earmarks of what people call the stomach flu (although there is no such thing - they are bacterial infections). Sounds like a case of e-coli: people should wash their hands after doing a "job", but many do not. Surprised you did not get explosive diarhea, as this would be more common, but everyoine is different.

 

Car companies spec thin oils to meet EPA emissions and mileage requirements. It does not hurt peak HP figures either, but engine durability will suffer. Thinner oils mean the parts are that much closer to metal-on-metal when pushed hard and/or the oil is dirty.

No auto company will tell you their engines last longer on the dynos with 5W20, because they don't. I know of oil related dyno durability failures (still beyond the warranty period) at one auto company where the engines never failed oil-wise with 5W30. Oil failures are expensive compared to burnt valves on a high mileage, but well-oiled engine.

Do yourself a favor and run 5W30 synthetic, for the best of both worlds (low friction and higher viscosity).

 

Well, I tend to agree with you, although the science of the Motorcraft Synblend 5w20 looks very, very good. But why stop at 5w30?

By your logic, 10w30 is the way to go. A syn or synblend will flow at temps that would make an Eskimo wince, while providing higher bearing vis than any 5w30. Plus, there is little or no VI improver in a 10w30.

One final: I get this magazine designed fir Honda/Acura techs called "ExpressTech", and it is chock full of inside info on TSB's for Honda/Acura cars. On the back, it has a 15 year history of all the AHM cars, and what oil vis was recommended for what year. So you see the TL's, which used 5w30 from 1995 - 2001, and all of sudden 5w20 pops up. Hmmmm.

Or, the RSX,, which shows 5w20 for 02-03, but for the Type S, it shows 5w30. Hmmmmmm. The hi-po car gets 5w30,

There are two cars which have always specified 10w30, with no exceptions, even into the 21st century. Care to guess? One is the S2000. The other is the NSX. Double-hmmmmmm. And the S2000's optional oil is 5w40!!!!!!!

So where does this lead me? Yes, I too will go my own way, and stick with an oil of proven excellence in a vis that has seen more cars go upwards of 300K than any other. Barring a breakthrough in the new amine additives (which could happen in the CF-4 API spec - I am not closed minded), I am going 5w20, mineral oil until 5K, and then Lubrication Engineers 8130. It has the cold weather flow of a 5w mineral oil, and higher bearing vis than a 40 wt mineral oil.

 

Road Rage and pettydw:

I hear and understand.

But what about us guys in the land of perpetual summer who don't ever see temps below 40 F.? We have no need of the "W" factor.

For the new TL, after break in, I am considering a synthetic 10W-30. If they had a straight 30 weight in synthetic, it would suit me, wouldn't it?

XP

 

R-R,

My prejudice against Ford is so strong, based on previous bad experiences with company vehicles, that I cannot bring myself to buy anything Ford (Motorcraft)- especially something as important as lubricating oil.

Are you saying that Conoco makes the branded Motorcraft oils? Do you like it as well as LE 8130?

XP

 

Yes, Conoco makes it, and no, I do not prefer it to LE 8130 - I mentioned the Motocraft because it is available in the 5w20 grade, and is SL-rated. That is for warranty "scaredy cats". 8130 is SH-rated, as they did not cut back on the additives package for the reasons I stated previously - just get 5 quarts of Pennzoil SL 5w20 and keep them around if you have a warranty failure of the engine - put that in and some of the used oil to dirty it up a bit. I do not believe ind e-frauding anyone, but since 8130 exceeds the mfr's specs bya vast amount, it would be bogus for AHM to deny a claim because the oil was SH rather than SL.

For Florida, I would run a 10w30, and since most synoils do not need any VI improver to make the 10w range, they are essentially monograde 30w's anyway.

 

Good, RR. Just what I wanted: a direct response/recommendation. Although I would qualify as a techie to some folks, I am a dummy when it comes to lubrication and related issues.

I didn't feel comfortable with the recommended 5W-20 which, to me, seems like sewing machine light oil. Now I know the reason why they recommend that.

Well we have consistant warm weather. It stays in the 80s at night. Engines run under hot conditions: atmosphere and road temps.

I did notice that the TL reaches operating temperature very FAST. I'm hardly out of my driveway. Once there, the cooling system controls are effective in keeping the needle in the middle of the gauge (I assume about 205 F). I am a little nervous with all the automatic and computerized controls. I prefer to have more operator controls over operation. Oh, well.

I am returning the case of Mobil1 0W-20 for some 10W-30. Intuitively I feel better with that along with your recommendation. I drive only about 5k miles a year. I think twice a year changes are plenty for me with syn.

XP