Adobeman

I know all the "buzz" is about the GM fluid but I decided to use the Honda MTF. I've seem plenty of results posted for the GM stuff but none about using the Honda MTF. So here is my experience. Hope it is useful for someone.

I recently, like everyone else with the 6MT, started noticing that my it was "fighting" me a bit on shifts into 3rd gear. After reading numerous posts here and elsewhere about the GMSF Friction Modified fluid I was very tempted to switch to it. But after noticing I wasn't the only one concerned about possible warranty issues I decided to change the gearbox oil but use the Honda MTF. I'm reasonably satisfied with popular opinion that the GM stuff probably will not damage the gearbox but I am certain that if I have any gearbox issues at all within the warranty, and it is somehow noticed I didn't use Honda MTF, I'll be out of luck. I know it is not likely to happen but I also know I am not the only one with the concern. With that in mind I figured all I would lose is a few bucks and some time if no difference was noticed.

Here is a picture of the old fluid next to some new fluid. (Click for larger). It is noticeably darker.


Here is a picture of the old fluid after being stirred. Notice the streaks of particles. The bright spot is just a reflection of my drop light. (Click for larger). I also "swished" a magnet through it but nothing seemed to be attracted to it.


Changing it cost less than $20. I didn't even need to remove the air intake, battery or any other "top side" components to get at the fill plug. A long 3/8 extension with a swivel was it. Once the cover was off the bottom of the engine it was really easy to get to the drain and level plugs

The Verdict:
I can't say it is a "totally different tranny" like the GMSF users say but it is better. Yesterday (first day after) it seemed a bit better but today it seemed even better. It is just like when I got the car. Maybe it's in my head or maybe it just takes a few miles for the fresh lube to get everywhere.

I still think it's bullshit to have to do this to a car with 4000 mi on it. However, if it is just a case of "do it once early" and your good for another 15K then I can live with that. That would work out to less than once a year for me. So if you are concerned about using the GM stuff then just try changing it and staying with the Honda MTF. Hopefully you will notice the difference too and rest easy about warranty issues.

bulacura

would this stuff affect the smoothness of the clutch also?

Brettg

Your fluid seems worse looking than what came out of my car at 4000 miles.

Thanks for posting the info and pictures.

I am in the camp of 'the GM stuff is fine'.
Its not so different from the honda stuff to where there could be a problem.
Its not like you are running gear lube in a manual trans fluid application,
or the other way around, both fluids are close to 10w30 engine oil with
a different additive package from engine oil.

But I think its a good idea for someone to try new honda MTF as a test.

My wife noticed the change from the honda fluid to the GM stuff immediatly.
She drives the car during the week, and said the transmission shifts like butter.

Since I changed it, I have not missed 3rd gear despite doing some
fast shifting.

I plan on changing it again in the spring, and checking for wear metal.
No wear metal, no wear, all is well.

Brett

Adobeman

Cool. I know that Michael Wan suggested that someone analyze the GM stuff after running it a while. It seems that that would be the real "proof" that nothing bad is happening inside the gearbox. Are you thinking you will actually have it analyzed?

KilroyR1

Nope (still)

Brettg

No, but I will look at it and compare it to the original oil that came out
at about 4000 miles.
That oil looked used, but not very used, and I found no metal chunks
in the bottom of the drain pan.

When I drained the lube I thought it was new untill I compaired it to the
GM stuff which was clean.
I did not know what the original honda stuff looked like though, additive packages
can make lubes look anywhere from new clean oil to what you drained out
of your car, suspended high pressure lubricants....

The transmission did change from new to 4000 miles, the shifting
got a little balky at times, 3rd gear and 1st sometimes at a stop, and
it was fine when new, so something wore in, but it did not show
up much in the lube, it had to be very slight wear of the syncros or something.

If I run the GM stuff for 2000 to 4000 miles and drain it and it looks nasty,
its coming out and the honda stuff goes back in, but I dont expect that...

Now I know how a slight bit of wear in a transmission can look very nasty in the
lube, my old Triumph motorcyles have lots of chunks and nasty wear metal
in the lube after a short time, bushings and so on wear a lot as they break in,
but on insspection of the transmission parts, they dont show any damage.
You also have to run a long time with crappy lube to cause a problem,
transmissions are not as fussy as engines when it comes to lube.

I bet there are plenty of cars with the original lube in the transmissions
and differentials, at 150,000 miles.

Brett

Legend2TL

Thanks for posting and pisctures, also considering the GM-FM MTF fluid.

KilroyR1

Let me know if you need a hand, since your so close and I've already done it.

***EDIT***

Actually, as I recall, you had your motorcycle's motor completely apart, so you won't need any help with a gearbox oil change.

Don

Pug

Did you have to raise the car to do this?

Adobeman

I did. I just can't get under it enough to get the cover off of the bottom off the engine. Ramps up front alone won't cut it. You need to keep the car level to use the "level" plug. Some just measure out 2.3Qt and dump it in but I am a perfectionist so I used the "level" or "overflow" plug to get it right.

I put the car on ramps up front and then jacked the back up with my hydraulic floor jack and used jack stands to support the rear. This put the car up high enough and level enough to do the work. If the car didn't have the cover on the bottom I probably could have done it without lifting it but it would have been uncomfortable for me.

And after day 3 (approx 75mi the feel is exactly back to brand new.

Anyone - Is it just my imagination or does it take a few days or a certain amount of use for the new fluid to work its way into everywhere ?

Bounce

Seems like you have buyers remorse almost...rock with this fluid for a while, and if you feel the need later get the GM, i mean if you need to take it in for any issues, you can alway sswap the fluid...now you have done it and like you said, it only costs 20 bucks!

Adobeman

Buyers remorse ? Not at all. I love the car. Seriously. I was just thinking this morning about what I payed for it vs. the car I last bought in 1995 and how much the TL absolutely eclipses that car in terms of performance, features and value. Plus, I honestly think it is the best looking car in it's class. It's the first car, that I could afford, that I ever fell in love with based on looks before driving it.

Perhaps an "annoyance" is how I think of it. As I said earlier "I still think it's bullshit to have to do this to a car with 4000 mi on it. However, if it is just a case of "do it once early" and your good for another 15K then I can live with that. " The shifting is now back to "day 1" feel which is perfectly fine for me. When I first test drove the 6MT I loved the shifting. So, now that it shifts that way again I'm perfectly happy and can "live with it" if I need to change it again in a year or so.

And, I agree with your statement "you can always swap the fluid...now you have done it and like you said, it only costs 20 bucks!" I just wanted to give the Honda MTF a try first and report to others what I found. Looks like the Honda MTF did the trick.

Pug

I couldn't agree more. I've had my TL for almost 2 years, and I still look forward to driving it to/from work each day. Thanks for posting your experience with the Honda MTF.

I think I'm going to go with the GMSM based on all of the positive feedback for it tough. I just need to find a garage where I can get the car on a lift. I have about 28k miles on my TL and it's getting notchy in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Legend2TL

Hopefully my TL motor won't be in this state anytime soon.
Hey it even ran after assembly despite me working on it.

Been busy at work and haven't had time to get the GM-FM MTL to do the 6MT fluid changeout (I'm at 8.6K miles).

I'll PM you for a fall ride, hopefully next weekend should be nice for weather and colors.

Nick-L

Like so many others, I have experienced the notchiness going into 3rd gear in my 6 MT TL. It seemed that about every 5-10 miles (or minutes) there would be a hiccup going into 3rd gear, often needing the second "push" to get it completely into gear (I have 12k miles). Of course, despite bringing it back to the dealer twice, they claimed they could not reproduce the problem, and that the transmission was working "normally".

This morning I changed the fluid to the GM semi-synthetic. After about 35 miles, the effects are significant and noticeable, though it does not feel like a "completely different transmission". It is definitely smoother and easier shifting. Most importantly, the 3rd gear hiccups seem to be completely gone! So, I am one more report of successfully "fixing" the 3rd gear hang-up with the GM fluid.

My bigger concern is that we have to be worried at all about what strikes me as potentially some sort of fundamental design flaw. A new $31,000+ Acura should not need to have its transmission fluid replaced with a GM product to make it work right. I can't help but wonder if the 3rd gear synchronizer has some sort of either manufacturing defect or design flaw which might come back to haunt later, in a premature failure. I would be very unhappy if the 3rd gear synchro fails prematurely.

I don't know how many 6 MT TL's Honda sells, but I would bet it's a small minority of the total volume, maybe 5%. Given that they probably make very little money on the 6 MT, they likely have little incentive to spend any money to fix the problem. I would bet they probably hope the problem quietly goes away (because of our own GM fluid fix). I personally am grateful and very happy that Honda decided to offer a 6 MT when most manufacturers wouldn't bother (it's why I bought the car), but I also suspect that they would probably prefer to just drop the 6 MT rather than spend money on fixing any basic problem it might have.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

I also changed the MTF early on my car. I did it twice, at 3000 miles and 5800 miles, both with Honda MTF. At 3000 miles, I see a lot of solid particles in the drain and not so at 5800. I know this is probably overkill, but I don't want to get grinding noise later. I decided to stick with Honda MTF because I got a good deal on them from a local Honda dealership ($4 per qt). The tranny feels better after first change, but not so much after the second one.

A cousin of mine has an 04 TL 6MT and he has occasional grinding noise at about 15k miles. He hasn't changed the fluid at all. I also had a 5MT Civic EX back in the day and it made the same grinding noise at about 20k miles on original fluid. I decided to play it safe this time.

I'm at 6200 miles now and the tranny feels smoother than when it was new. I know the GM Fluid will probably make it even better, but I have no complains for now.

jennarocks

Maybe im repreating what already been said, but its not like us TLers are the first to start using the GM Syncromesh FM... the S2000k'ers have been using it too, and they love it. Its proven in those cars.. and they probably thrash on their cars more than we do. If we thrash at all.

SouthernBoy

As for the percentage of manual transmission sales for the TL, I would wager it's a little higher than many might think. The most popular Acura dealer in the Northern Virginia area is Pohanka in Chantilly. I just checked their website and they are showing 142 TL's in their inventory (a mix of 2005 and 2006's). Of those, 30 are manuals which is a lower percentage than normal for them. They generally show around 25-27% manuals.

I have suspected for some time that the affluence of this area promotes the purchase of premium performance coupes and sedans with manual transmissions. Perhaps they are bought as "toys" or to help people who have high-stress jobs to relax and settle down on their drives home. I know my job is high-stress (software engineering) and getting in my TL for the ride home is something I really look forward to and the end of a hard day.

millerrh

I just got back from the dealership today after trying to show them my 3rd gear problem. Of course they couldn't reproduce it and said my transmission was normal, but graciously offered to look at it again if they felt I could reproduce it for them.

I had told them that others have experienced this same problem and that some of them had fixed it by switching to a different transmission fluid. The response by them was that unless it was the approved Honda MTF, it would void my warranty if anything were to go wrong. Knowing me, I'd try the GM Syncromesh stuff, they'd issue a TSB for the 3rd gear problem, and then I'd be out of luck.

So now I'm thinking about just doing a fluid flush with the Honda stuff and seeing if that might help it. Has anyone else just flushed it with the Honda fluid? I really really wish I could just change it to the GM fluid and make my gears shift like they should

SodaLuvr

Yes, that's normal. It may take some miles for the new additives to "work its way" into the transmission.