Can anybody with the OEM shop manual tell me the recommended sequence for bleeding the brakes of 04+ TL? The owners manual says to replace the brake fluid in your car every 3 years, but doesn't give you the details of what order to do it in...

BTW: That old myth of farthest-to-nearest wheel from the master cylinder doesn't apply to any Honda I've ever worked on. So I'm only looking actual info directly from the service manual...

Thanks!

 

FL.... FR.... RR.... RL

Good Luck

 

Definitely the case with VISA equipped vehicles - the ability for the brakes to individual modulate each wheel/caliper etc.. Then again, ensuring you get clean fluid out of each save cylinder/caliper is the concern. Not following an exact sequence if anything would only cost you an extra ounce of fluid etc..

Have fun - keep it off the rims/paint..

 

Does the book mention anything about cycling the ABS during the bleed process. Stoptech recommends that with our type of ABS system, it's necessary to bleed once, then activate the ABS (by simply driving the car), and then bleed a second time. The idea is to cycle fresh fluid into the ABS system and get all the old fluid out...

 

The normal bleeding proceedure from honda they dont include bleeding the abs system.

 

Well thanks for all your help guys. I'm thinking I might try the stoptech double bleed method & see if I get any extra dirty fluid out of there. I have a while before it's time to bleed the car, but I'll let you know what I find when I do...

 

Just pump the pedal 15 times before starting the flushing- that empties the abs accumulators
I

 

I don't know. Wouldn't you just be pumping dirty fluid back into the ABS as well? Or are you saying that pumping the brakes with the car off completely empties the accumulators? If so please expand on this...

 

For starters the first step with your process should be to empty the master cylinder reservoir and fill with new fluid. Thus any "pumping"/moving of fluid from the master will result in pulling in clean fluid. As you progress you keep re-filling the master reservoir with clean fluid to accommodate what your pumping/bleeding out at each wheel/slave cylinder.
-I know you know this already - what I am getting at is if you have clean fluid in the master reservoir, any pumping/bleeding and associated filling or emptying of "accumulators" should result in clean fluid (eventually with a full bleed process etc.)

Placing the brake bleed/fluid exchange requirement in perspective (adding in a degree of how anal some of us are about our vehicles and preventative maintenance,,, :-) ),, All you really need to do is maintain clean fluid in the master throughout the bleed process all while bleeding from each slave cylinder/caliper until only clean fluid is present. I would then wrap the job up, top off the master and drive the car for a month - then repeat the process if you really think it warrants the time and fluid.

Even with my experience, I'm not real big on cracking open a brake system unless I have concerns about moisture, particulates, and/or air within the system that will degrade components and/or operation. I like fresh oil/fluid as much as the next guy/gal yet wouldn't worry about getting every last drop "replaced" during a brake bleed etc.. Like the proper way of completing a 5AT fluid flush, I prefer to do the job, drive the vehicle a bit then repeat as applicable. Same approach can be used on the brake fluid (though not 12 qts worth.... )


Cheers

 

Thanks for your input as well...

I have no problem cracking open NON ABS brake systems and I've done it more than a couple times on both my Civic and CRX. And by "cracking open" I mean removing/replacing parts. I am much more hesitant about doing this on an ABS/VSA system. I know that any air that makes its way into the modulator system will be next to impossible to bleed out without the use of a $1400 computerized game-boy looking tool that cycles each ABS solenoid individually. This was a major problem for one Honda-Tech member in the Type R forum recently. He had a chronic mushy pedal, and no amount of bleeding or road activated ABS could fix the problem. His road-race car ended being trailored to the dealer to get the air cycled out of the ABS...

NEways... I think I'll try the twice-bled method & see if anything dirty comes out on the second round. If no dirty fluid turns up, I won't be doing it again...

BTW: I'm still completely lost on 01tl4tl's idea of pumping the pedal to remove fluid from the accumulators. On a modern 4 channel ABS system, there is no stored pressurized fluid. Fluid is simply cycled around. The ABS pump only produces pressure while it's running, and this pressure is sent directly to the main fluid lines. Beyond that, fluid is only momentarily stored in reservoirs when the system actively goes into pressure reduction mode (letting off the caliper). After that it's immediately pumped back into regular braking circuit (no storage)...

Hmmm. Looking at these diagrams makes is seem even more important to cycle the fluid out of the ABS unit. I hope it helps...

 

When my 06mt was 500 miles new, it developed a mushy pedal that was fixed by replacing the ABS accumulator.
Isn't the point of replacing the fluid really to get the moisture out of it? Seems like it would be sufficient to change most of the fluid, and not worry too much about small amounts here and there in the ABS system? Granted, you'd still have a little moisture in the system, but you get moisture in the fluid as soon as you break that foil seal on the bottle.

 

To clarify:
Brake fluid absorbs moisture from the air- right past the rubber seal on the master cylinder cap.
Yes you should suck the master mostly empty with turkey baster- refill with fresh fluid and then start the procedure. LEAVE the master cyl cap ON during bleeding!!!!!

By the time you are done you bleeding each brake and doing flush beyond where you first see clean fluid- do it a few more sets of build pressure and release- then all is clean

We tried the -do it again a week later- method on mine and saw no more old fliud come out- no air- just clean fluid!

By pumping the brake pedal 15 times with the engine OFF you help the system
purge itself- trust me- no special honda tool required on our brakes- just common sense

Do each wheel by pump pedal 3 to 5 times and hold down while friend opens and closes bleeder valve.
Probably the most important thing here is to not push the pedal all the way top the floor- when the valve is opened....3/4 of the travel is fine
And never let the master run out of fluid.
On average- 1 qt of brake fluid will flush the system

Back to the moisture thing- brake fluid does not compress under pressure- it simply moves back and forth- water droplets DO compress and are moved in the fluid, and work their way into the abs controller and the calipers. This moisture turns into tiny rust particles
that eat expensive parts.
Change the fluid once every year!!!!
Dot 3 or Dot 4 fluid only
Synthetic, like Valvoline, is approved too

As for brake fluid absorbing moisture into the bottle when you remove foil seal-
this is why you use fresh fluid-
never a bottle that has been open and on your shelf for more than 6 months max...
thats putting crud right into the system!!!!!!!!

 

I perfectly understand ALL the basics of bleeding the system, moisture accumulation, topping off the MC, so a tutorial is not necessary. What I'm not understanding is when you say pump the pedal 15 times with car off. I simply don't get what thats supposed to do. It's not like any of the solenoids that separate the ABS circuits from the main circuits magically open up when you pump the pedal with the car off. With the car off, no fluid flows through the ABS lines whatsoever....

Sorry but I'm just not understanding the technical side of this tip. And as for it being common sense, this is the only time I've ever heard of such a thing.

PS: The special tool is only necessary if you get air inside the ABS fluid circuits...

 

Then dont believe me and the thousands of hours of mechanical work behind what I say on this forum. I build aerobatic airplanes and race cars and read tech stuff all the time that ends up in my postings. Where exactly I got this one I dont recall- my Nissan required 30 pumps per the manual then I read 15 for the TL- so I do it that way- the inner workings of diagrams are not my specialty- I just fix stuff.

Do it without pumping them down and do it with- see if you can tell any differance.

 

Oh, are you quoting a part of the bleed procedure from the shop manual? That makes more sense then. I guess I'm gonna have to take a drive by the dealer and ask to have a look at the shop manual. Thanks for the info, and sorry for sounding hard-headed...

 

Only gases compress; enough moisture in the system will allow the fliud to boil under heavy braking, that's how you get air in the system.
Moisture by itself won't make rust, you need contact with metals.
I think he means pump = pressure on pedal, open bleed screw., depress, close bleed screw.

 

The moisture/condensation gets into the fluid because its hydrostatic
It does indeed ruin the boiling point and it does rust- its a couple of gasses you may have heard of!
Want to see what comes out of some ruined brake systems?

And the hydraulic brake system does not circulate fluid like the transmission
Fluid moves a short distance from point A to B and returns when pedal released
Thats why flushing the brakes is so easy- you remove fluid at the end and its replaced from further up the line
Bleed the brakes right and get all the old fluid and air-(if you replaced a brake line for instance) out of the system.
"I think its good" and- "there is nothing but clean fluid coming thru the tube into the catch bottle"- are 2 very different things

I am big on this because brakes are the most important thing on the car- without them its just an expensive smoking pile of parts!
Flush fluid every year starting at year 1
I dont care what the book says! I live on Earth~

 

Does anybody have a DIY, a link to a DIY, or the scans from the manual for how to flush the brakes? I didn't see anything for this in the Garage. Also, any particular brake fluid recommendations? Thanks.

 

A scanned copy of the procedure would really make this thread complete (if someone has the time). As for brake fluid brand, any DOT 3 or 4 is good if you replace it often enough. The owners manual pulls that "only use Honda fluid" (unless temporary) when talking about bleeding, so I plan to just pick up a bottle of that...

 

Valvoline Synthetic works great, Motul and other super hi tech brands are for those who track day their car

It could not be simpler to flush the brakes on a car
Read top post again and there is the unusual order- but procedure is same as any car
Driver front LF then RF RR LR
do the whole thing twice if any doubt in your mind
Takes apprx 1 qt of fluid to change all- unless you have really old fluid- then a little more fluid to flush the lines is needed

 

I couldn't find anything in the service manual about a brake fluid flush. The only thing it mentions after any service is brake bleeding.

I have scanned the pages that I think will be needed for any brake job. The thread is posted in the 3G Garage, just search for brakes, bleeding, etc.

 

Thanks for the heads up Ron...didn't associate that thread with what I was looking for as it wasn't specifically a flush.


Based upon what was posted above and the scans Ron referenced, I'm assuming the following is what I need to do:

- Drain the brake fluid.
- Refill with Honda or equivalent brake fluid.
- Perform the bleed prodecure (twice if necessary/desired).

Is there a drain plug to drain the master cylinder or do you drain it by bleeding out the brakes?

Yeah, I'm only slightly new to this...

 

Remove plastic engine covers to access brake master cylinder- hereafter referred to as Master
Open the cap and insert new $2 turkey baster (use of wifes NOT recommended)
Wait-back up- squeeze out the air in the baster and insert into fluid
NOW suck the fluid into the baster and immediatly transfer to plasic soda type bottle
Repeat until ALMOST empty- use a flashlight to look thru the sides
DO NOT let it ever expose the holes on the bottom!!
Get out what you can but not nuero about it.
Add FRESH NEW DOT3 or 4- synthetic good- from a foil sealed container-
one that has never tasted fresh air
Fill to full line on Master
replace cap and tighten to close
cap brake fluid bottle
Start at Driver front known as LF
do the pump and hold, open bleeder, push pedal 3/4 of travel down, close bleeder,
repeat till only fresh clear fluid comes thru plastic tube attached to bleeder- runs into that soda bottle
Then do a few more sets of clear fluid coming out to be sure
Check Master and refill
Move to passenger front- RF
move to Passenger rear RR
and Finally Driver rear LR

Repeat all if desired

Never let the Master run dry or you have air to bleed out!
Refill to MAX line and NOT ABOVE- there has to be a little room at the top
Replace Master cap
Replace covers and test drive

CAUTION BRAKE FLUID EATS CAR PAINT- PLACE CATCH RAGS AROUND MASTER
and something to protect fender is a wise idea

 

Ideally you would simply remove the existing fluid with a turkey baster and refill with fresh fluid before you started doing anything. If you don't have something to suck the old fluid out, you CAN simply bleed out the master cylinder through one of your calipers like you said. You just have to be absolutely sure that you don't let the level get so low that you suck air while doing it (and it can happen fast too).

If I did it that way, I would use a minimum of three people. You on the floor cracking the bleed ports & directing pumping operations, one friend to pump the pedal & hold pressure when you say, and another to watch/add fluid when it finally gets low.

I remember one time I even spooned the old fluid out of the master cylinder before...

 

Thanks for letting me know where it was. I even searched there 5 times and still missed it. Here is the link for future reference:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118283

An interesting note is that Step-7 & 8 of bleed process says to drive the car an make 2 ABS stops. If your pedal is hard afterwards, your done. If it's soft, you must bleed again. This is exactly the type of info I was looking for...

 

Good to know! thanks

 

Thanks guys!! You've all been a big help. This will be next weekends project if all goes as planned.

 

Epic thread revival...

Ok so today a buddy and me worked on my car. First replaced the brake pads and rotors. Afterwards, we bled the brakes. I'm not an expert at this but I printed off this manual that says the sequence FR FL RR RL. He said any car he has ever worked on (which is a lot) says start in the rear and work your way forward. I was like 'are you sure...?' and he said ya it won't make any difference. I went along and let him do it since he is very experienced in it so we did it his way... RR RL FR FL. Everything went fine...

Does it REALLY matter what sequence you go in? I assume Acura has this sequence for a reason but my brakes work just great...

 

If it didn't matter, then they wouldn't print it as such. Of course I'm sure your car isn't going to fall apart or anything. The fact is, the system is put together in such a way that it requires a special bleed sequence. That is the nature of complicated ABS systems.

BTW: Even my old 89 CRX doesn't bleed from furthest to closest. You bleed RR & FL then RL & FR. That's becuse the opposite corners are linked together. The mastery cylinder has two separate channels in case one fails you can still brake in a straight line.

 

Thread revival....whatever side the module that links to all the brake hardline is located on any car you start with that first; closest to farthest. So for 3G Acura TL and TL-s it's on the right side, you want to do the following brake bleeding sequence FR FL RR RL.

 

You are wrong. Honda designed it, so it's whatever they say it is.

 

No sh!t guess you're right

 

For posterity. FL FR RR RL as others noted.

 

Why people revive dead threads with wrong information I'll never know..