All newcomers- future purchasers...DO NOT pay MSRP, TMV - you are getting robbed. Order or no order, lot or no lot...if you push back and hold the line - you will get very close to YOUR desired REASONABLE price. I guess I have been lucky both times, so let me back off and say - get what you can - but too many people overpay for a car that the next guy coming in can get for much less. I guess I despise dealers so much that I go in with the I don't care attitude and it is paying off. All I can speak is to my 2 different experiences at two diff. dealers - so if anything, like I have said before - at the very least, you tell them to work from invoice not MSRP.