The Optimal Percentage of Racing ATF
#361
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@ bumping your own post...
read the first few pages of the thread and it will tell you which option to pick
read the first few pages of the thread and it will tell you which option to pick
#362
#363
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well firstly what are you trying to get at ?
do you want stock viscosity or lower/higher viscosity?
then the % of FM's
then your current situation
depending on these you will need to come at what products you want to get....and what mixture will work for you....honestly, its not one size fits all (atleast IMO)....
do you want stock viscosity or lower/higher viscosity?
then the % of FM's
then your current situation
depending on these you will need to come at what products you want to get....and what mixture will work for you....honestly, its not one size fits all (atleast IMO)....
#364
well firstly what are you trying to get at ?
do you want stock viscosity or lower/higher viscosity?
then the % of FM's
then your current situation
depending on these you will need to come at what products you want to get....and what mixture will work for you....honestly, its not one size fits all (atleast IMO)....
do you want stock viscosity or lower/higher viscosity?
then the % of FM's
then your current situation
depending on these you will need to come at what products you want to get....and what mixture will work for you....honestly, its not one size fits all (atleast IMO)....
#365
Team Owner
I haven't clicked on this thread for months, maybe I'll be back in another 6 months but this is it for now.
If it's slipping, it's wearing. The quicker you can complete the shift, the sooner the wear stops. With too much FM you end up with a bump shift where the shift begins by dragging the clutches, causing useless wear and not really doing anything. As the shift progresses, the hydraulic pressure is quickly ramped up and the clutches grab all at once in the last few miliseconds of the shift. This causes a higher peak load on everything than if it just shifted quicker but more consistently in the first place. This is why many, myself included noticed less shift harshness when going to the Type F fluid and replacing the switches.
Clutches in an auto are not tolerant to slip. It takes very little to burn the surface and further reduce friction. On top of that, there is very little friction material. They are made to be on or off.
Yes, in a bearing with very low friction and let's not forget, bronze and some plastics are practically self lubricating, that's why they are chosen.
Pistons, well actually rings are designed for the lowest possible drag while still sealing the cylinders. They are not designed with coupling in mind. It's apples to oranges, no comparison. Pistons generally "wear out" in the ring land area by the rings hammering them. The skirt and crown will usually go many hundreds of thousands of miles with very little wear.
Try driving a manual and slipping the clutch at every gearchange for a few seconds and see how long it lasts.
It's a well known fact in the industry that the quicker the shifts are the less wear occurs on the friction surfaces. In high hp applications where stock friction area must be used, the most important aspect of getting the trans to live is shift timing and shift speed. Shift speed is generally as quick as possible without breaking hard parts for minimal wear.
There are a couple causes of the transmission failure and I agree, the fluids, both factory and aftermarket are band-aids but the best and only options available if you want the trans to last. One cause of failure is too much FM when coupled with switches that go bad often and contribute to slow, soft shifts. The two in conjunction with one another are a recipe for disaster. The other cause is the 3rd gear circuit gets momentarily energized on the automatic 4-2 downshift and does not have the flow capacity to exhaust the circuit in time. You end up with 2nd gear fully applied with the mechanical advantage and hydraulic advantage while 3rd has enough hydraulic pressure to apply the 3rd gear clutch pack but not enough to win the fight with 2nd gear. The result is slipping/dragging 3rd gear clutches. This is the one case where you can argue the crappy heavily FM factory fluid can be beneficial but personally I would just avoid the automatic 4-2 downshift.
DexIII has less FM than Z1. You're talking about a completely different transmission with greater friction surface area in a less powerful car. Apples to oranges. You could put a TH400 in a TL and there's no doubt it would go half a million miles regardless of the fluid.
Clutches in an auto are not tolerant to slip. It takes very little to burn the surface and further reduce friction. On top of that, there is very little friction material. They are made to be on or off.
Try driving a manual and slipping the clutch at every gearchange for a few seconds and see how long it lasts.
I had Chevy Malibu 2000, never did anything with transmission until car has been damaged in accident at 230K km and sent to scrap... OEM ATF, nothing special.. never had ANY problems with it (DEXIII I believe)
I'm not a guru in automatic transmissions, but have engineering background and understand how machines work...
I'm not a guru in automatic transmissions, but have engineering background and understand how machines work...
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#366
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every drain and refill should have D4, Lightweight Type F and Type F....so you have 66% FM's in every drain and refill.....do this 4 times....
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ResistaNce (07-02-2012)
#367
08 MDX, 04 TL (sold)
iTrader: (1)
I'm at 175k on my original transmission and have been reading these threads for a long time and using the Redline fluids to get as much life out of my transmission as possible.
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ResistaNce (07-02-2012)
#369
Drifting
Once you're already optimal, the superior Redline ATF should not require as frequent changes. I like monitoring the wear on the magnetic plug so it makes more sense to see the plug more frequent than waiting 3x longer and then doing a 3x3 which isn't necessary (since you're not changing fluid types). I'll continue the 20k interval for now and may extend this to 30k once I see noticeably different wear on the plug. I have been taking pictures of the plug and wiping the wear on a paper towel so this should be easy to confirm my next ATF change. I'll be doing this change this next month and will look forward to seeing some hopefully good results.
On a side note, a lot of people are confusing the 3x3 as a regular service procedure. The owner's manual is pretty clear that you only need to do that if you use a non Z1/DW fluid in an emergency situation and wish to go back to OEM configuration. Read you owner's manual and you'll see what I'm referring too.
#371
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^^^ THIS is exactly what am about to do....1x3 every 15K miles as compared to 4x3 every 60K miles....
#372
As the shift progresses, the hydraulic pressure is quickly ramped up and the clutches grab all at once in the last few miliseconds of the shift. This causes a higher peak load on everything than if it just shifted quicker but more consistently in the first place. This is why many, myself included noticed less shift harshness when going to the Type F fluid and replacing the switches.
Pistons, well actually rings are designed for the lowest possible drag while still sealing the cylinders. They are not designed with coupling in mind. It's apples to oranges, no comparison. Pistons generally "wear out" in the ring land area by the rings hammering them. The skirt and crown will usually go many hundreds of thousands of miles with very little wear.
Again... I want to say that there is no black and white situation... some slipping required to prolong mechanism life, too much slipping also is not good
It's a well known fact in the industry that the quicker the shifts are the less wear occurs on the friction surfaces. In high hp applications where stock friction area must be used, the most important aspect of getting the trans to live is shift timing and shift speed. Shift speed is generally as quick as possible without breaking hard parts for minimal wear.
One cause of failure is too much FM when coupled with switches that go bad often and contribute to slow, soft shifts. The two in conjunction with one another are a recipe for disaster. The other cause is the 3rd gear circuit gets momentarily energized on the automatic 4-2 downshift and does not have the flow capacity to exhaust the circuit in time. You end up with 2nd gear fully applied with the mechanical advantage and hydraulic advantage while 3rd has enough hydraulic pressure to apply the 3rd gear clutch pack but not enough to win the fight with 2nd gear. The result is slipping/dragging 3rd gear clutches. This is the one case where you can argue the crappy heavily FM factory fluid can be beneficial but personally I would just avoid the automatic 4-2 downshift.
DexIII has less FM than Z1. You're talking about a completely different transmission with greater friction surface area in a less powerful car. Apples to oranges. You could put a TH400 in a TL and there's no doubt it would go half a million miles regardless of the fluid.
Again...adding FM increases slipping, but also reduces friction coefficient and rubbing (and heat dissipation as well, this is simple science).
If you are aggressive racing driver you may need faster shifting and have to use ATF with less FM, regular driver may be happy with DW1, grandma ma say that it is shifting too hard and she wants even smother shifting... Honda developed ATF with some amount of FM, that they think will be good enough for most drivers of the target audience, but will not create problems... There are always some drivers those are not in that audience and won't be completely happy with this solution... This is the reason why people are modding their cars, computers, boats, houses, etc ...
unfortunately they didn't develop reliable transmission... and I don't think that all 5AT transmission problems on Accords, Acuras, Odys caused by "bad" ATF... It may not be the best, but problem is in another place
#373
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great information, both ways
#374
08 MDX, 04 TL (sold)
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Clutches always tolerant to some slip. SOME.. and this is why they are used here... OF course, to much slip is bad... as well as no slip at all also is not good
[snip]
Hmmm. I was driving manual for many years... I know that you are right... Now try driiving manual with no slipping at all I doubt you will be able to move car from the parking spot
Again... I want to say that there is no black and white situation... some slipping required to prolong mechanism life, too much slipping also is not good
[snip]
Hmmm. I was driving manual for many years... I know that you are right... Now try driiving manual with no slipping at all I doubt you will be able to move car from the parking spot
Again... I want to say that there is no black and white situation... some slipping required to prolong mechanism life, too much slipping also is not good
I also think that the OEM Z1 fluid had way too much FM which caused too much slipping and is probably why they revised it and came out with DW1. I also think that going to a complete Type-F with no FM may have been too far in the other direction, which brings us to why Inaccurate created this thread in the first place. A recommendation to mix in some FM fluid with the Type-F... just nowhere near as much as the OEM fluid had.
Regardless, most of us on this forum really don't have enough information to be absolutely certain of any solution. We just don't have enough solid data gathered in a scientific and controlled manner, so we simply share info and make our best guesses.
#375
Team Owner
this is true... but with some conditions... and condition is " if everything else is the same"... So, if dragging occurs with the same ATF that has the same amount of FM - you are completely right... but if amount of FM is noticeable higher, then friction coefficient will be lower... that brings higher slippage, but lower wearing... apply oil on your brake disks and pads, they will never wear (but won't be usable as a brakes )
... actually it is not completely useless... dragging is REQUIRED to prolong lifespan for mechanical parts by avoiding hard shifting (not talking about comfort)... that is the reason why friction clutches are being used... not hard locking mechanisms (known in engineering)
Excessive slippage is not needed in this transmission. How many hard parts have you ever seen broken in the Honda 5at? An auto does not "shift" gears. They're always in mesh with one another and the correct clutch is applied and the correct clutch is released to complete a shift. Shift timing is not perfect so we need some slippage or we would end up with a bind of a flare, but that slippage needs to be minimized for the least amount of wear.
This is why a fluid with less FM gives more comfortable shifts in the Tl's case. It gives a more uniform application of the clutches which means quicker, less sloppy shifts and at the same time less peak load which is felt by the driver as a smoother shift and less stress on hard parts.
The same fluid works well in other Honda's transmissions for hundreds of thousands miles. This urges me to believe, that initial reason might be somewhere else (I'm not trying to prove, that Z1 or DW1 is a perfect fluid and better than Redline or Amsoil, I do not have enough information about this, I switched from Z1 myself a couple of years ago )
Bad design... Honda ATF may also be bad, but I think (if so) it is secondary... and using the best possible ATF in G2 may just slightly improve situation...
Bad design... Honda ATF may also be bad, but I think (if so) it is secondary... and using the best possible ATF in G2 may just slightly improve situation...
The better fluid will more than just slightly improve the situation. Take a look around the site for more info. On another level, once the clutches' surface is too far gone to fully lock up and you have a slipping transmission or the beginning of slip (shudder) the lower FM fluid gives the necessary friction to fully couple and get a few more miles out of it, thousands in fact. Look around on this site at how many transmissions with shudder were cured with this fluid along with switches.
I explained the mechanism behind the failures, all 3 in fact, but you choose to ignore them.
Yes, I know... but why not to do honda's transmission "completely differently" and forget about ATF problems? (bad design again). CAr power is not really important.. weight is close to each other, driving habbits are the same (kinda aggressive, but not too much), max power? In the regular highway driving I doubt I use 30% of possible power on my ATL-05... Maliby might used the same number of horses, but percentage would be higher due the limited number of horses under the Malibu's hood
I understand what you're saying but if you have a heavier car, you're using more power to accelerate it at a given rate. Over tens of thousands of shifts, you don't think that adds up?
More importantly, you cross a threshold at a given power and weight (with these specific transmissions) where you go from a proper quick shift to the bump shift of the TL and wear will more than triple on each shift. Now you have a bump shift and more average power and weight. It's a compound problem.
During highway driving the torque convertor is locked and there is no shifting. The only wear occurring on the highway is hard parts such as bearings, bushings, and gears. If these are the conditions in which you drove your Malibu, you're going to run into hard part failure before you wear the clutches out and that's many hundreds of thousands of miles away.
Also, FM does not reduce heat dissipation.
If you are aggressive racing driver you may need faster shifting and have to use ATF with less FM, regular driver may be happy with DW1, grandma ma say that it is shifting too hard and she wants even smother shifting... Honda developed ATF with some amount of FM, that they think will be good enough for most drivers of the target audience, but will not create problems... There are always some drivers those are not in that audience and won't be completely happy with this solution... This is the reason why people are modding their cars, computers, boats, houses, etc ...
unfortunately they didn't develop reliable transmission... and I don't think that all 5AT transmission problems on Accords, Acuras, Odys caused by "bad" ATF... It may not be the best, but problem is in another place
unfortunately they didn't develop reliable transmission... and I don't think that all 5AT transmission problems on Accords, Acuras, Odys caused by "bad" ATF... It may not be the best, but problem is in another place
Read what I wrote again. I did not say all 5at problems are the fault of the fluid. In fact, I said the fluid is a band-aid. The crappy factory fluid with it's tendency to oxidize in a few thousand miles and high FM content exacerbate the problem.
Let's not forget, the different FM content can slightly alter shift timing as well and in our case it seems to be on the positive side.
#376
Ah, hamburgers!
Hey guys,
I bought my car last month and it has 46K miles. I'm not sure if the fluid was changed before but I will assume that it wasn't. I plan on changing the filter up top and also cleaning the screen "bullets". I want to do a 3x3 and decided to buy 9 quarts of RL Racing ATF but the more I read the more I'm confused about what fluid to use. What do you guys recommend?
I bought my car last month and it has 46K miles. I'm not sure if the fluid was changed before but I will assume that it wasn't. I plan on changing the filter up top and also cleaning the screen "bullets". I want to do a 3x3 and decided to buy 9 quarts of RL Racing ATF but the more I read the more I'm confused about what fluid to use. What do you guys recommend?
#377
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^^^ cool story bro....
now read the thread !!!
now read the thread !!!
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jhumbo (07-11-2012)
#378
Ah, hamburgers!
Facepalm to myself.
I should've read instead of skimming.
I gather that the 65% Racing is still the best option for first time switchers?
Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Now the question I should've asked instead is can I proceed to Refill #1 from above not knowing what's in the transmission currently? And also is it better to wait 500 miles or 1K miles to proceed to Refill #2?
I should've read instead of skimming.
I gather that the 65% Racing is still the best option for first time switchers?
Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Now the question I should've asked instead is can I proceed to Refill #1 from above not knowing what's in the transmission currently? And also is it better to wait 500 miles or 1K miles to proceed to Refill #2?
#379
That would be almost correct except reducing the FM content reduces "dragging" time and gets right to the business of full coupling of the clutches.
"Dragging" is completely useless in an auto unless abnormally high wear is the goal. The entire shift span should be used to couple the clutches quickly and in a linear fashion. Dragging creates additional heat and wear.
Excessive slippage is not needed in this transmission.
"Dragging" is completely useless in an auto unless abnormally high wear is the goal. The entire shift span should be used to couple the clutches quickly and in a linear fashion. Dragging creates additional heat and wear.
Excessive slippage is not needed in this transmission.
Is slippage/dragging required or not? I'm not about "excessive"...
read my words again... SOME slippage required (and you are saying the same)... but only some, controlled... If transmission can work without slippage why nobody uses othet methods of coupling?
All this only about understandint of definition of "SOME"
How many hard parts have you ever seen broken in the Honda 5at? An auto does not "shift" gears. They're always in mesh with one another and the correct clutch is applied and the correct clutch is released to complete a shift. Shift timing is not perfect so we need some slippage or we would end up with a bind of a flare, but that slippage needs to be minimized for the least amount of wear.
I don't believe that using Redline or Amsoil in 5AT transmissions on Acura TL and CL 2G will eliminate problems with those transmissions (but cannot prove that... I do not have car with such transmission, that shall be brand new... and cannot do appropriate experiments. From the other side nobody here has enough data that will definitely prove that high amount of FM in honda ATF is the reason for transmission failures
You're kidding, right? I said this in my last post.
Clutches in an auto are not tolerant to slip
I would agree with you that some people will want more firm shifting and they shall use ATF with less FM, some other may be happy with way transmission shifts as it supposed to shift according to Honda's opinion, some will want hard shifting and may use ATF with no FM at all... but there is no hard proof that FM kills transmission, unless transmission is badly designed... Z1 or DW-1 designed for average user in target audience, other may want to change situation one or another way...
Power and weight are EXTREMELY important. I'm kind of surprised you made such a statement
I value your opinion, I'm reading forum for a long time, just not writing a lot ... you know, this is kinda jocke... I was never worrying about transmission on my Maliby (car with similar size and weight, almost the same engine displacement, but less horse powers...) And transmission was working just perfectly... original colour and smell after 200K km (changing ATF wasn't requried whole car life, according to user manual)... and kinda brownish colour on ATL transmission after 80-90K km... with the same driving habits, similar car weight, the same road conditions... Changed ATF to Mobil1 and 60K km later it also starting slightly change colour, despite I installed transmission cooler with additional fan and thermostat. This makes me believe, that biggest problem is transmission itself, not a car power, ATF or anything else... It is not slipping, but ATF discoloration already not a good thing. Going to switch to Red Line or Amsoil soon... or will use DW-1. I'm reading all these transmission related threads for better understanding, but still not convinced that racing ATF ifs a good thing for transmission (may be not bad, but Inaccurate reported driveability problems with full racing ATF in his transmission...
I doubt I will buy another acura or honda..., unless they will fix transmission completely
#380
08 MDX, 04 TL (sold)
iTrader: (1)
Facepalm to myself.
I should've read instead of skimming.
I gather that the 65% Racing is still the best option for first time switchers?
Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Now the question I should've asked instead is can I proceed to Refill #1 from above not knowing what's in the transmission currently? And also is it better to wait 500 miles or 1K miles to proceed to Refill #2?
I should've read instead of skimming.
I gather that the 65% Racing is still the best option for first time switchers?
Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Now the question I should've asked instead is can I proceed to Refill #1 from above not knowing what's in the transmission currently? And also is it better to wait 500 miles or 1K miles to proceed to Refill #2?
Bottom line is that the Redline fluids have served me well for the past 60,000 miles and I highly recommend getting them into your transmission based on my personal experience. I have not experienced the shift quality issues I had since I made the switch.
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#381
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^^^ this !!!
#382
Ah, hamburgers!
Thanks fellas. Appreciate the help!
Btw, I'll be switching out the 2nd and 3rd switches, as well as the filter element up top, and also cleaning out the three screens. I was also thinking about adding a Magnefine inline filter. Good idea?
That's all I've rather from searching so far (unless I find someone who can install a tranny cooler).
Want the tranny to be in as well of a condition as possible.
Btw, I'll be switching out the 2nd and 3rd switches, as well as the filter element up top, and also cleaning out the three screens. I was also thinking about adding a Magnefine inline filter. Good idea?
That's all I've rather from searching so far (unless I find someone who can install a tranny cooler).
Want the tranny to be in as well of a condition as possible.
#383
Team Owner
You know, when I read you were an engineer I almost didn't reply because I knew I would be hearing that statement used many more times and used as a crutch for your argument.
"Dragging" implies just that, dragging, unnecessary friction and wear while not working toward the goal of completing a shift. I guess you could put it in the "excessive slippage" category.
It's been proven tens of thousands of times in the real world. Perfect shift timing with as little slip as possible is the goal of any transmission designer. If the engineer had the final say, cars would come out of the factory chirping tires on every gear shift. However, this would not sell many cars.
Don't believe it. No fluid will eliminate the inherent design flaws but it can certainly band-aid it so that we get acceptable life out of the trans. There are a lot of data points, search through the threads at all of the cars that were experiencing shudder which is slippage that the fluid and/or switches cured. If you choose not to look, that's not my problem.
Do you purposely ignore my points or do you just not get them? There is proof everywhere that too much FM kills transmission *when it causes excessive slip*.
Again, read what I write. Most people experience LESS harsh shifts with less or no FM. That was my experience as well. The bump shift or jerk as it is experienced by the driver disappears with less FM. The reason why has been explained twice already.
Please, get full throttle out of your head. A heavier car requires both more average power and more peak power for the same acceleration.
Full throttle shifts don't kill an automatic as you're assuming. They will kill it quicker if shift timing is off or if there's excessive slip during the shift but if everything is in good order, full throttle isn't abusive. Let's not forget, the TL won't do full throttle upshifts. The throttle closes on the shifts so there's very little power going through the transmission when it shifts which brings me back to the original point, shift quickness is everything in respect to wear and it actually reduces the shock felt by the drivetrain and the driver.
ATF is red because it's dyed red. Some ATFs turn brown just from heat cycling alone. It does not mean there's anything wrong with the fluid or the trans.
Any automatic requires a fluid change. In the case of your Malibu, that was marketing winning the battle with the engineers.
In response to one of your earlier statements, what works best in racing will usually work well in a street car. So much of our technology trickles down from racing. In a fast car, bad shift timing or a slow shift might mean it lasts only a few passes. In a normal car it might mean it lasts 60,000 miles vs 120,000 miles. The scale changes but the end result usually doesn't.
How about this, instead of arguing points that have already been proven for years, try the fluid in question and report back with your own opinion. I'm not trying to be a jerk but arguing whether or not quicker shifts mean less clutch wear is like arguing whether or not the sky is blue. It would be great if Honda gave us 10x the friction surface area as many of the heavy duty transmissions have but having a relatively small friction area means shift timing and quickness are more critical.
kinda disagreement with yourself
Is slippage/dragging required or not? I'm not about "excessive"...
read my words again... SOME slippage required (and you are saying the same)... but only some, controlled... If transmission can work without slippage why nobody uses othet methods of coupling?
All this only about understandint of definition of "SOME"
Is slippage/dragging required or not? I'm not about "excessive"...
read my words again... SOME slippage required (and you are saying the same)... but only some, controlled... If transmission can work without slippage why nobody uses othet methods of coupling?
All this only about understandint of definition of "SOME"
Oh, I know... as I said I have engineering background.. in transportation area... and more than just university diploma... No objections on your willingness to improve shift timing... as I said we always customizing everything... cars, computers etc.... I just not sure it will also increase transmission life... And, as far as I see, you also cannot prove this... just because you also do not have enough data... e.g. 5 mln total miles on two transmissions, the same driving habits, but with different ATF... I also have no such data... and it means I cannot be 100% certain in this statement... It may.. or it may not... or something in between... or it may even reduce...
I don't believe that using Redline or Amsoil in 5AT transmissions on Acura TL and CL 2G will eliminate problems with those transmissions (but cannot prove that... I do not have car with such transmission, that shall be brand new... and cannot do appropriate experiments. From the other side nobody here has enough data that will definitely prove that high amount of FM in honda ATF is the reason for transmission failures
No, I'm not kidding... you said:
too many contradictions in your words...
I would agree with you that some people will want more firm shifting and they shall use ATF with less FM, some other may be happy with way transmission shifts as it supposed to shift according to Honda's opinion, some will want hard shifting and may use ATF with no FM at all... but there is no hard proof that FM kills transmission, unless transmission is badly designed... Z1 or DW-1 designed for average user in target audience, other may want to change situation one or another way...
too many contradictions in your words...
I would agree with you that some people will want more firm shifting and they shall use ATF with less FM, some other may be happy with way transmission shifts as it supposed to shift according to Honda's opinion, some will want hard shifting and may use ATF with no FM at all... but there is no hard proof that FM kills transmission, unless transmission is badly designed... Z1 or DW-1 designed for average user in target audience, other may want to change situation one or another way...
Again, read what I write. Most people experience LESS harsh shifts with less or no FM. That was my experience as well. The bump shift or jerk as it is experienced by the driver disappears with less FM. The reason why has been explained twice already.
Sure, important... As I said about weight... but power... number of horses in user manual is just a potential power... max power that can be produced by the engine... not power that engine releases all the time... As I said I doubt engine uses more than 30% of it's max power on highway driving... Full power only used with acceleration on the full throttle. If you are using your max power all the time - you will kill any transmission regardless of ATF used in pretty short time, it is not designed for such conditions. Real average power released by the engine more depends on driving habbits, than on digits in manual... and on vehicle weight, of course
Full throttle shifts don't kill an automatic as you're assuming. They will kill it quicker if shift timing is off or if there's excessive slip during the shift but if everything is in good order, full throttle isn't abusive. Let's not forget, the TL won't do full throttle upshifts. The throttle closes on the shifts so there's very little power going through the transmission when it shifts which brings me back to the original point, shift quickness is everything in respect to wear and it actually reduces the shock felt by the drivetrain and the driver.
I value your opinion, I'm reading forum for a long time, just not writing a lot ... you know, this is kinda jocke... I was never worrying about transmission on my Maliby (car with similar size and weight, almost the same engine displacement, but less horse powers...) And transmission was working just perfectly... original colour and smell after 200K km (changing ATF wasn't requried whole car life, according to user manual)... and kinda brownish colour on ATL transmission after 80-90K km... with the same driving habits, similar car weight, the same road conditions... Changed ATF to Mobil1 and 60K km later it also starting slightly change colour, despite I installed transmission cooler with additional fan and thermostat. This makes me believe, that biggest problem is transmission itself, not a car power, ATF or anything else... It is not slipping, but ATF discoloration already not a good thing. Going to switch to Red Line or Amsoil soon... or will use DW-1. I'm reading all these transmission related threads for better understanding, but still not convinced that racing ATF ifs a good thing for transmission (may be not bad, but Inaccurate reported driveability problems with full racing ATF in his transmission...
I doubt I will buy another acura or honda..., unless they will fix transmission completely
I doubt I will buy another acura or honda..., unless they will fix transmission completely
ATF is red because it's dyed red. Some ATFs turn brown just from heat cycling alone. It does not mean there's anything wrong with the fluid or the trans.
Any automatic requires a fluid change. In the case of your Malibu, that was marketing winning the battle with the engineers.
In response to one of your earlier statements, what works best in racing will usually work well in a street car. So much of our technology trickles down from racing. In a fast car, bad shift timing or a slow shift might mean it lasts only a few passes. In a normal car it might mean it lasts 60,000 miles vs 120,000 miles. The scale changes but the end result usually doesn't.
How about this, instead of arguing points that have already been proven for years, try the fluid in question and report back with your own opinion. I'm not trying to be a jerk but arguing whether or not quicker shifts mean less clutch wear is like arguing whether or not the sky is blue. It would be great if Honda gave us 10x the friction surface area as many of the heavy duty transmissions have but having a relatively small friction area means shift timing and quickness are more critical.
#384
"Dragging" implies just that, dragging, unnecessary friction and wear while not working toward the goal of completing a shift. I guess you could put it in the "excessive slippage" category.
It's been proven tens of thousands of times in the real world.
Do you purposely ignore my points or do you just not get them? There is proof everywhere that too much FM kills transmission *when it causes excessive slip*.
Please, get full throttle out of your head. A heavier car requires both more average power and more peak power for the same acceleration.
Comparing with my old Malibu ATL is just 60 kg heavier... not much, to be honest...
http://www.auto123.com/en/chevrolet/...rid=1001202701
http://www.auto123.com/en/acura/tl/2...&tab=equipment
this is only 5% difference... it won't require much more power to accelerate... just additional 5% I would consider weight as equal... such difference shall not increase failure rate. If it is - engineers (and other who made decision about transmission) must be fired
How about this, instead of arguing points that have already been proven for years, try the fluid in question and report back with your own opinion.
and some others, despite you are recommending to use pure racing ATF, already reported problems with this setup... Doesn't look like this "have already been proven for years" ... It may be good for you, but not for everyone... all people are different
#385
Team Owner
thank you for definition (english is not my native language )
I'm really sorry, but nobody on this (or any other) forum has enough statistic to certainly prove this... Did you drive a few millions of miles total on the same transmissions but with different ATF? I'm not talking about transmissions in general, this particular transmission is prone to fail... I'm not saying you are wrong (this is you want to prove that I'm wrong ).. yo may be right... you may be wrong... but you (and me too) do not have enough data.. both of us...
Sorry, I do not see this "proof".. In my opinion it is just not proven enough... There are some signs... and there are another signs.. on the top of this topic...
I'm really sorry, but nobody on this (or any other) forum has enough statistic to certainly prove this... Did you drive a few millions of miles total on the same transmissions but with different ATF? I'm not talking about transmissions in general, this particular transmission is prone to fail... I'm not saying you are wrong (this is you want to prove that I'm wrong ).. yo may be right... you may be wrong... but you (and me too) do not have enough data.. both of us...
Sorry, I do not see this "proof".. In my opinion it is just not proven enough... There are some signs... and there are another signs.. on the top of this topic...
Don't you think this is kinda inappropriate?
Comparing with my old Malibu ATL is just 60 kg heavier... not much, to be honest...
http://www.auto123.com/en/chevrolet/...rid=1001202701
http://www.auto123.com/en/acura/tl/2...&tab=equipment
this is only 5% difference... it won't require much more power to accelerate... just additional 5% I would consider weight as equal... such difference shall not increase failure rate. If it is - engineers (and other who made decision about transmission) must be fired
Comparing with my old Malibu ATL is just 60 kg heavier... not much, to be honest...
http://www.auto123.com/en/chevrolet/...rid=1001202701
http://www.auto123.com/en/acura/tl/2...&tab=equipment
this is only 5% difference... it won't require much more power to accelerate... just additional 5% I would consider weight as equal... such difference shall not increase failure rate. If it is - engineers (and other who made decision about transmission) must be fired
The only thing inappropriate is taking my words out of context.
Again, your Malibu is a completely different transmission, you can't begin to compare it to a TL's transmission. Most of GM's transverse transmissions are/were based on a proven longitudal design such as the 4L60 and 4L80 and are overall good transmissions with double to triple the clutch friction area of the TL. In fact, the Honda 5at is much different than any other AT out there.
this is my plan... but I do not promise quick results ...
and some others, despite you are recommending to use pure racing ATF, already reported problems with this setup... Doesn't look like this "have already been proven for years" ... It may be good for you, but not for everyone... all people are different
and some others, despite you are recommending to use pure racing ATF, already reported problems with this setup... Doesn't look like this "have already been proven for years" ... It may be good for you, but not for everyone... all people are different
#386
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
I will do this too
1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
3x3 1000 miles interval
Had stock fluid since 2006
why D4 but no D6
I swear I searched it and found notttthing nothing about it
Just wondering
1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
3x3 1000 miles interval
Had stock fluid since 2006
why D4 but no D6
I swear I searched it and found notttthing nothing about it
Just wondering
#387
takin care of Business in
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Meko, the D6 has very low viscosity....
Check this out:
D4:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 34
Viscosity Index 198
D6:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 6.4
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 30.7
Viscosity Index 166
Type F:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 10
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 53.7
Viscosity Index 177
LightWeight Type F:
Vis @ 100°C 4.9
Vis @ 40°C 23.2
Viscosity Index 140
I think if you use 1TypeF, 1D4 and 1Lightweight, you will get 66% FM's and a viscosity of
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.46
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 36.96
Viscosity Index 171.66
Now if you use 2Type F and 1D6, you will still get 66% FM's and a viscosity of:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 8.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 46.03
Viscosity Index 173.33
Hence the fluid will be a little thicker...
PS: I just averaged out the numbers....I would need Inaccurate to validate if we can do that
I think the viscosity is right in the middle of straight Type F and the 1each mixture.....and it works out since the stupid Lightweight racing is out of stock pretty much everywhere....and the people who have it (on Amazon) want more $$$ and almost as much for shipping....
More reading:
Check this out:
D4:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 34
Viscosity Index 198
D6:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 6.4
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 30.7
Viscosity Index 166
Type F:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 10
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 53.7
Viscosity Index 177
LightWeight Type F:
Vis @ 100°C 4.9
Vis @ 40°C 23.2
Viscosity Index 140
I think if you use 1TypeF, 1D4 and 1Lightweight, you will get 66% FM's and a viscosity of
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.46
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 36.96
Viscosity Index 171.66
Now if you use 2Type F and 1D6, you will still get 66% FM's and a viscosity of:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 8.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 46.03
Viscosity Index 173.33
Hence the fluid will be a little thicker...
PS: I just averaged out the numbers....I would need Inaccurate to validate if we can do that
I think the viscosity is right in the middle of straight Type F and the 1each mixture.....and it works out since the stupid Lightweight racing is out of stock pretty much everywhere....and the people who have it (on Amazon) want more $$$ and almost as much for shipping....
More reading:
Synthetic D6 ATF is a lower viscosity version of the D4ATF and is designed for better fuel efficiency in CAFE testing. Dexron VI requires a different approach to a conventional ATF formulation. Rather than beginning with a 7.5 cSt fluid and allowing a viscosity loss in use to drop to 5.5 cSt, the Dexron VI fluid requires a starting viscosity of less than 6.4 and a final drop to no less than 5.5 cSt. Red Line D6 will drop to no less than 6.1 cSt. Since the final viscosity after use of these fluids are similar, Dexron VI fluids can be used where Dexron III fluids
were previously recommended (with the exception of some manual transmission applications, our customers report).
D6 ATF also provides significantly improved gear protection and will provide a GL-4 level of gear protection. The balanced frictional characteristics provide smooth and consistent shifts for extended drain intervals. The superior stability compared to petroleum ATFs allows high-temperature operation without varnishing valves and clutches which leads to transmission failure.
Popular product and application crossover:
Dexron® VI (GM Part Number 88861003), Mercon® SP, Mercon® LV, Mercon®, Dexron® III '99 on automatic PNs
Ford Mercon® SP--Torque Shift 5-speed Automatic 5R110W, '03 on 6.0 liter diesel trucks, 2005-09 V-10, ZF 6HP26 6R60/6R75,
Mercon LV-'08 Focus
Mercedes NAG-2 7 speed transmission, Fuchs, Mobil & Shell 3353, MB Sheet 236.12, pt# A001 989 45 03 10
Dexron is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation.
Mercon is a registered trademark of Ford Motor Company.
were previously recommended (with the exception of some manual transmission applications, our customers report).
D6 ATF also provides significantly improved gear protection and will provide a GL-4 level of gear protection. The balanced frictional characteristics provide smooth and consistent shifts for extended drain intervals. The superior stability compared to petroleum ATFs allows high-temperature operation without varnishing valves and clutches which leads to transmission failure.
Popular product and application crossover:
Dexron® VI (GM Part Number 88861003), Mercon® SP, Mercon® LV, Mercon®, Dexron® III '99 on automatic PNs
Ford Mercon® SP--Torque Shift 5-speed Automatic 5R110W, '03 on 6.0 liter diesel trucks, 2005-09 V-10, ZF 6HP26 6R60/6R75,
Mercon LV-'08 Focus
Mercedes NAG-2 7 speed transmission, Fuchs, Mobil & Shell 3353, MB Sheet 236.12, pt# A001 989 45 03 10
Dexron is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation.
Mercon is a registered trademark of Ford Motor Company.
#388
takin care of Business in
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I was doing a little more looking around and found the product data sheet for the Redline ATF's:
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/fi...PDS%201-10.pdf
and the MSDS for DW1 and Z1:
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/HONDA...S_(Canada).pdf
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/Idemi...00-900-OES.pdf
also the "common" MSDS for the redline ATF's
http://redline-oil.ru/images/catalog/42/msds-atf.pdf
this might have been posted before but I just wanted to post it in this thread for documentation....
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/fi...PDS%201-10.pdf
and the MSDS for DW1 and Z1:
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/HONDA...S_(Canada).pdf
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/Idemi...00-900-OES.pdf
also the "common" MSDS for the redline ATF's
http://redline-oil.ru/images/catalog/42/msds-atf.pdf
this might have been posted before but I just wanted to post it in this thread for documentation....
#389
Team Owner
Good info. Don't get too hung up on viscosity though. A 20 degree temperature swing can change the viscosity to the next weight. The viscosity is measured at 212F since that's a good average operating temp. Some transmissions run significantly hotter in city driving and some will sit right on 160F going down the freeway with the converter locked.
Make sure the true cold viscosity (not the 40c rating) is thin enough for your climate and the 100c rating is not too thin and anything in between those two numbers are fine. Viscosity will slightly affect shifting but it's the level of FM that greatly affects shift quality.
I had no idea D4 has a VI of 198. That's extraordinarily high assuming there are no VIIs added. It has to be one hell of a base oil. What it means essentially that viscosity is less affected by temperature changes. It thickens less when cold and thins less when hot which is what you want. I think the literature states there are no VIIs but I would have to go back and read it again.
The stock fluid will have a significantly lower viscosity index so it will thicken more when cold and thin more when hot. The 40c and 100c ratings are just a small snapshot into the viscosity. It's fully possible for the much thicker Type F (at 40c and 100c) to be as thin as stock fluid on a cold start in a cold climate. I'm not saying this is for sure the case but something to think about. The transmission can operate over a huge viscosity swing considering a fluid like D4 even with a very high VI is still 30x thicker at 32F than it is at operating temperature. Others can be 60x or more thicker from cold to hot! That's why I don't sweat a 10cSt fluid vs a 7cSt fluid as long as it meets the minimum viscosity requirement.
If anyone is curious about viscosity, play with this calculator for a while and you'll see how the ratings and viscosity index play out in real world conditions: http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
Make sure the true cold viscosity (not the 40c rating) is thin enough for your climate and the 100c rating is not too thin and anything in between those two numbers are fine. Viscosity will slightly affect shifting but it's the level of FM that greatly affects shift quality.
I had no idea D4 has a VI of 198. That's extraordinarily high assuming there are no VIIs added. It has to be one hell of a base oil. What it means essentially that viscosity is less affected by temperature changes. It thickens less when cold and thins less when hot which is what you want. I think the literature states there are no VIIs but I would have to go back and read it again.
The stock fluid will have a significantly lower viscosity index so it will thicken more when cold and thin more when hot. The 40c and 100c ratings are just a small snapshot into the viscosity. It's fully possible for the much thicker Type F (at 40c and 100c) to be as thin as stock fluid on a cold start in a cold climate. I'm not saying this is for sure the case but something to think about. The transmission can operate over a huge viscosity swing considering a fluid like D4 even with a very high VI is still 30x thicker at 32F than it is at operating temperature. Others can be 60x or more thicker from cold to hot! That's why I don't sweat a 10cSt fluid vs a 7cSt fluid as long as it meets the minimum viscosity requirement.
If anyone is curious about viscosity, play with this calculator for a while and you'll see how the ratings and viscosity index play out in real world conditions: http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
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swoosh (07-25-2012)
#390
came over from TSX and MDX fence I am currently running D4 in 09 MDX and it shift great, much better than Z1. I found it strange no one talking about this Redline Racing ATF formula in MDX forum, i thought... MDX have 5AT similar to the TL. is MDX having a different transmission? thanks
#392
TL-S
iTrader: (4)
I am planning on doing another 1x3 soon and am wondering what fluid I should buy.
I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.
Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.
My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.
Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.
My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
#393
I am planning on doing another 1x3 soon and am wondering what fluid I should buy.
I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.
Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.
My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.
Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.
My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
And you wont go wrong with 1x racing 1x lightweight and 1x d4. Im doing all 3x3 with that mixture
#394
takin care of Business in
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1> i used to drive almost 1000 miles a week and hence it made sense to me to pick a little higher mileage
2> i wanted to introduce the new fluid slowly as i was at 147K miles
3> i hate draining out new fluid....so if you drive 4-5 minutes and drain, you are draining a lot of the brand new fluid u just poured in....
now if you dont drive as much, i would pick a 200-250 miles interval and keep an eye on how your car responds to the new fluid....
I am planning on doing another 1x3 soon and am wondering what fluid I should buy.
I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.
Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.
My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.
Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.
My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
Drain and fill percentage:
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+%
so a 3x3 with Type F gets you to 77.8% of new fluid and 77.8% of Racing fluid....you want to keep the racing fluid at 65%
then you did a 1x3 with 1 racing and 2xD4...so now you have 86.6% new fluid and 72.6% Type F fluid....
if you do another 1x3, i would do the same, 1 racing and 2xD4...so you will have 91.9% new fluid and 67.39% Type F fluid....
once you get to this...going forward just do a 2xType F and 1xD4...this will keep you at ~65-66% Type F fluid....or do a 1xType F, 1xLightweight and 1xD4....this will keep you at the same 65-66% Type F fluid all the time....
Hope this helps
#396
takin care of Business in
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^^^ just when i was replying to your PM LOL....
check the about drain and refill percentages....2 drain and refills will bring you to 63.6% Type F fluid....
so going forward just do: 1xType F, 1xLightweight and 1xD4....this will keep you at 65% Type F fluid and closer to stock viscosity
check the about drain and refill percentages....2 drain and refills will bring you to 63.6% Type F fluid....
so going forward just do: 1xType F, 1xLightweight and 1xD4....this will keep you at 65% Type F fluid and closer to stock viscosity
#398
I've been watching and reading this thread for some time now but would still appreciate some clarification on how I should go about to get the redline in to my 07 TL-S. I'm getting close to reaching 58k on what I'm going to assume is the stock atf fluid bought the car with 48k. What steps do I take?
1x3:?
2x3:?
3x3:?
4x3: do I need to do a fourth?
Should I replace the pressure switches right away or see how the ones I currently have take to it?
Thanks guys.
1x3:?
2x3:?
3x3:?
4x3: do I need to do a fourth?
Should I replace the pressure switches right away or see how the ones I currently have take to it?
Thanks guys.
#400
08 MDX, 04 TL (sold)
iTrader: (1)
There's a lot of info on this board about this, but to get you going here's a quick explanation.
The transmission contains a little over 8 quarts of fluid. Draining the fluid will only bring out about 3 quarts because there is fluid trapped in the gears and torque converter. This is known as a 1x3. Doing a single drain and fill (1x3) of the fluid will only freshen up the fluid as only 40% has been replaced. If you drive through all the gears to get the fluid to mix together then do another 1x3, now you've replaced a bigger percentage of fluid.
Doing this three times would be a 3x3.
Doing this a fourth time would be a 4x3.
Here is the table of how much fluid has been replaced after each consecutive 1x3:
Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+%
So after a 3x3, you've replaced about 78% of the fluid. After a 4x3, you've replaced about 87% of the fluid.
The transmission contains a little over 8 quarts of fluid. Draining the fluid will only bring out about 3 quarts because there is fluid trapped in the gears and torque converter. This is known as a 1x3. Doing a single drain and fill (1x3) of the fluid will only freshen up the fluid as only 40% has been replaced. If you drive through all the gears to get the fluid to mix together then do another 1x3, now you've replaced a bigger percentage of fluid.
Doing this three times would be a 3x3.
Doing this a fourth time would be a 4x3.
Here is the table of how much fluid has been replaced after each consecutive 1x3:
Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+%
So after a 3x3, you've replaced about 78% of the fluid. After a 4x3, you've replaced about 87% of the fluid.
Last edited by jhumbo; 10-08-2012 at 10:41 AM.