DopeTL04

The right thing to do is what the manual and dealership says! And that is what they both say....but than again you can do what you want, maybe you should have wrote the manual for Acura!

SodaLuvr

Dealership follows Acura's recommendations (hopefully), and Acura's recommendation is only an recommendation. Everyone has a unique driving style, and only oil analysis will reveal the correct oil change interval for your application.

DopeTL04

Yes its a recommendation, and if my doctor recommends that I do not drink alcohol with my anitibiotics, I dont think I will....Than again it could be a great feeling

alvonchui

Don't take it the wrong way. I would like to follow Acura's recommendations too, but seeing what other people have reported here with oil reports, I am not so sure I would wait for the MiD. That was why I decided to change out the oil early. But if you can do an oil analysis at your next oil change and report back, then everyone will benefit from your information. We are all here to share information.

Xpditor

I changed at 3400 (a little less) and am having the used oil analyzed. My car is almost a year old. I did not feel I could wait any longer even though the mileage is on flat, warm, Florida roads although the MID said I had 50% oil life left.

I refilled with Mobil 1 10W-30 and 15 oz. of Valvoline MaxLife Engine Protectant to replace, in part, the molybdenum that the Honda factory fill has. However, this MLEP will also increase the viscosity somewhat as it is about 40 wt.

At 7,000 miles, I will change again and not worry about the Moly content. My feeling at this time is to stay with Mobil 1 but perhaps move up to Mobil 1 Extended Protection product which has a more robust additive package. I would also feel OK with Havoline dino or Motorcraft Blend.

I am not so settled on a filter yet. People carp about Fram here but I'm not sure why. I installed a Fram premium Tough Guard filter which is rated at 99% filtration multi-pass for >20 microns. I have another Fram and a Purolator PureOne on the shelf for the future.

Mobil 1 filters are rated at only 98%. Do these ratings mean anything objectively? Is a silicone one-way check valve desirable?

Is all of this overkill because all oils and filters have gotten so good?

Am I paranoid? I plan on keeping my TL for a l-o-n-g time. And I only drive about 4-5000 easy, warm miles per year . It seems the dealer just used whatever was cheap that week that he could buy in a 55 gal. drum. If he doesn't care, should I?

SodaLuvr

Thats one reason I don't like most additives-- they thicken the oil.

Disregard the ratings on oil filter, they are absolutely worthless. If you want to know the real effectiveness of your oil filter, have Butler-Machinery analyze your oil with a TBN reading for about $22.50+$3.85 shipping and request a particle count. The Frams are nicknamed the "Orange Can of Death," though yours is probably a silver can of death. Mobil 1, Amsoil, or PureOne Filters are probably the best in terms of filtration.

Again, like I've said recently, add a pint of MMO MLEP will NOT be sufficient to boost your Moly level to 350ppm of higher, M1 itself has about 80-150ppm of Moly, the new SM, GF-4 formulation has much less, less than 100ppm. Your best bet is to use Havoline Dino 5W-30, its moly level is 360ppm as I've posted earlier in a VOA thread; note that those VOAs were done by Butler and included a particle count, but no TBN.

I'm probably going to take a lot of fire for this when disagreeing with a well-respected member of this forum, RR, but I've got my flame suit on.

Michael

jich505

WOW - there is a lot of technical info here on the different levels of different stuff that I am not sure of.

I am one who likes to maintain my cars to the best of my ability but have not gotten to the extent of some on here. I have rebuilt many motors in my life and have always used M1 for my replacement oil. Never had any problems.

I have come to the time now where I need to do my second oil change for my TL and need to know the overall best products I need to make a proper Oil Change (filters,oil,weight,additives). Ids M1 not the product I should be using? I have 5-30 and 10-30. Should I find another product? I have M1 oil filters also.

Thanks for the help.

DarkWraith33

I'm using M1 5w-30 and Mobil 1 M110 filters... Plan on changing every 3-5k... DONE...

Road Rage

Sorry, but you are flat out wrong on your conclusion about the MiD. The MiD algorithm is not entirely based on mileage, but on a variety of factors, including run time, RPM, and so forth. The fact that your dealer is incompetent, lazy, and money grubbing does not indict Honda's enbgineering recommendations - in fact, quite the opposite. I would be wary of a dealer who does not seem "to get it" - it would make me wonder if they cut corners or use a "this looks like it might fit" attititude in other areas. In the S2000, we have seen several cases where dealers installed the diff fluid used in the VTM cars in the S2000's diff "because it was the right viscosity" - never mind that the diffs failed because it is wholly unsuited for that purpose.

Anyway, I and others have posted a lot on the topic of oils, viscosity, change intervals, etc and I have nothing new to add, other than to say that ANY of the top tier oils, syn or min, and ANY of the top tier filters (Purolator, Mobil, STP (which is a Mobil1 essentially at a fractiion of the price) will provide all the protection 99.9% of the readers of this Forum need. The performance differences between the generally available oils is pretty narrow these days, and not worth fretting over (see my posting on the 10w30 oil comparo for validation). There are relatively unknown but outstanding companies primarily targetting the OTR professional, and these products do not have cost constraints as the prime directive for their design, whereas something like Mobil1 does. Lubrication Engineers is an example of this sort of company - they design the best oil they know how to, using expensive additives often proprietary to them, and then price the product. Their QC is the best in the industry, so you can be sure that every bottle makes the grade, pardon the pun. The QC of mainstream products is surprisingly wide - I have run many oil analyses, and found many cases where even a top brand (Pennzoil, Valvoline, Mobil) could not even meet their viscosity spec consistently. So for my money, paying extra for LE products and then not worrying about them is the best decision for me. It also allows me to stock only one oil (LE 8130, or Delvac1 5w40 for track use), simplifying my life, and allowing me to buy in bulk which is cost effective.

Unless one extends oil change intervals (OCI's), I do not see the sense of paying for a full synoil. The 3K change interval is an engineering dinosaur, and contributes to a huge waste of time and money, while creating a needless used-oil situation to boot.

jich505

RR - thanks for the info. I figure a lot of the products out there now are perfectly fine for the everyday commuter. I used to do a lot of track time with various motors and manufacturers, but now have resorted to the good old reliable stock motor driving. So basically am just looking for something that is QUALITY of course, but not going to break the bank everytime I change my oil.

BTW what is LE product oil ( sorry if this is a well know abbreviation.) and where do you get it?

Thanks again.

GUMP

it's funny, i was just going to post this question today. my last oil change was at about 5k back in mid october. i'm now at 12.5k and i'm reading 30%. i've never waited this long for an oil change. i do about 18k a year on a mixed loop of driving. after hearing some of guys, i think i'm bringing mine in this weekend for a change..it can't hurt. what about the rotation of tires. does the mid send out a reminder for that?

DevTL

jich505: LE product oil is Lubracation Engineers, see other posts. I believe it is only available mail order for most of us.

RR: when you mention that unless oci's are extended you do not see the sense of paying for a full synoil, are you implying the TL mid recommending 8k is not an extended oci? At this OCI, wouldn't some dino oils, (excluding LE, havoline, etc), be suspect?

CYBERTIGER 718

Anyone who lives in the NYC area can have their MID service warning and oil percentage reset without going to the dealer. Contact me.

SnappyPappy

Roger this! Bolth BMW and Mercedes (pardon the German) have computerized oil monitors. My BMW recommends oil changes at between 12,000 to 15,000 miles (Synthetic Castrol). My friends Mercedes the same thing. Why can these autos get such extended mileage (manufacture recommended) and Acura owners/dealers angsting over 3.000 to 4.000 miles between changes????? Makes NO sense. Personally, I'll follow the Acura Midi recommended change intervals and use a synthetic for peace of mind. I know these guys *love* their cars and want to baby them but really be kind to your wallet also. . .

Road Rage

Short answer: no. In the majority of driving scenarios, 7500 is not an extended OCI by today's standards using today's lubricants. Of course, using a terrible oil, thrashing the engine in 100 deg heat, etc will stress some dino oils, no doubt. But what is the point - who is likely to be putting Glennzoil or Fredzoil in their TL?

We are in a mind loop on this Forum on the point of OCIs - if we assume a top tier oil is being used, and that the MiD was not engineered by a mech eng'g student from Honduras with a 1.5 GPA, but rather by the world's largest mfr of engines (Honda), then what would there be to suspect? Now, I would change my mind on this if we saw a lot of postings by people who changed at the 10% mark, had a UOA performed, and it showed dangerously low TBN and high wear metal counts. But we haven't, and given the general atmosphere in the 3G Forums, who would suggest that anyone would hold back something that major, when every little nit is made into doomsday scenarios? See where I am going with this?

Let's look at some worst case scenarios:
1) 100+ deg temps, high RPM followed by extended idle times - this is a high oxidation risk scenario, and the MiD would likely come up at 10% at or before the 7500 mile mark
2) Temps consistently < 32degF, short cycle times (trips), extended idle times - again, the MiD might come up before 7500. This is a scenario where fuel dilution and water condensate leading to acid formation is the risk factor.

Each mfr has come up with its own system. Nearly all have scrapped the "normal/extreme" driving typology, which was stupid, as it expected owners to be the judges, and left it open to dealers to gouge people by saying "all driving is extreme", which is not the case. So cars like the Toyota V6, which have a tendency to sludge and has small oil passages, and is sold to drivers who often are not "car crazy", led to frequent stressing of the oil, and the formation of sludge. So with that car, with the oil available then, I would say that the OCI was assuredly suspect.


Now, most mfrs peg the interval at 7500 miles. Ford went to 5000 miles. As has been posted by others but deserves another mention, since people do not seem to get it, the European mfrs deliver many cars with full synoils as OE lubes, and their oil monitoring systems (OMS) regularly suggest OCI's in the 12-15k range, and often above that! 5 years ago, who would have thunk it?

As I regularly point out, the "regular" oils are nearly all synoils base stocks these days based on the Castrol case precedent, and full synoils do not enjoy the huge performance advantage they had 10 years ago. The difference is primarily in the quality of the add pack - the detergents and oxidation inhibitors, the type and quantity of the AW/AF compounds, and so forth. Full synoils are engineered to have high TBN's, while most minoils much less so. That is why I think it is foolish to use a full synoil and not go to an extended OCI. In my case, I use a synblend which is about 70% GIV PAO's, the balance an extremely good GII paraffinic, combinerd with one of the best add packs out there. The result is an oil that seems to have its AW compounds go to work at lower temps than a full synoil, and with a TBN and oxidation resistant additives that resist oxidation to the point where it has one of, if not THE, greatest resistance to oxidation out there, as measured by the TFOUT test sequence.

Like most fine points of life, it is the details that matter, and generalizations that obfuscate. The major oil mfr's rely on that - how else could they get people to pony up $5+ for a full synoil, when right down the aisle one can buy Havoline (aka Chevron Supreme) for a fraction of that price? At least Mobil seems to be taking a different tack - their new ads emphasize the 15,000 OCI - so maybe people are figuring out for themselves what has been the main point of my posts here for the last year: If you go full syn, extend the OCI based on increasing the OCI's by 1-2k per interval, and doing UOA's until you find the right OCI for you.

Or, at least use a premium synoil or synblend, and always go the full extent of the MiD's recommendation. That is what i intend to do, as I have little interest to devote time to things I already have knoweldge of, and there are more things in life to enjoy. Plus, one has the peace of mind knowing that if one goes past the OCI mileage a bit, or is stuck in sweltering heat crawling for 2 hours, that there is plenty of reserve in your engine's lubricant. It would be hard to fault that logic, although the scientist in me screams "Trust the MiD, Luke - don't give in to the Dark Side". Another left brain/right brain battle.

RR.

Road Rage

Michael: Feel free to disagree, but accept responsibility for the consequences. Your comments put an inordinately high value on molybdenum, which is a fine additive, but not the Holy Grail of lubrication. Man does not live by moly alone. Some of the best oils out there, and the one I use, have no moly - zip, zero, nada. LE 607 gear oil, which is the best performing gear oil i have found for the highly stressed S2000 diff, has no moly either - it uses LE's proprietary additive, which outperforms moly on all counts.

I know you spend a lot of time at BITOG, and should know that there are any number of fine UOA's posted there, many (most?) of which have moly counts much lower than 400 ppm. And at what point does moly saturation occur? Like prunes, are 2 too few - are 8 too many?

In the final analysis, it is the balance of the add pack that matters, the temperature at which it becomes effective, and how long it can deliver.

SnappyPappy

Rage are you an engineer? I read engineer speak all over your posts here. You certainly present like you know of what you speak. We certainly agree on the oil issue, you far more elegant in expressing that view point. Keep these boys honest . . .

6speedv6

Just for informational purposes, my car's MiD shows <15% @ 5,000 miles, which took me about 4 months (November to February). That is mostly hwy miles, about 2 autocrosses and a track weekend @ VIR. Temperature range during that period was between 20-75 F.

Road Rage

Yes, I have both a Mech Eng and Electrical Eng'g degree, and was pre-med as an undergrad. I was admitted to Med School but had become interested in computers, and now am an IT Director for a Fortune 5 company. I write articles on cars and high-end audio as a hobby. I used to race my own car (a Lotus 7) in SCCA at Lime Rock.

SodaLuvr

RR, I do admit that I put a high value on Molybdenum when dealing with Honda engines, but I do not do it to the degree that you stated.

Very few oils on the market contain more than 250ppm, not to mention 400ppm. BTW, Havoline 5/30 on has 360ppm. Many oils perform very well with little or no moly at all, take the new Mobil 1s for instance. They have less than 100ppm of Moly, and I have confidence that they'll perform well. Another example, most of the HDEOs and Amsoil have zero moly. Do they perform well? Yes. I do agree that moly is not everything, but I do put it into special consideration when dealing with Honda engines since they, for some reason, tend to wear very well with high moly oils.

The reason I was discussing Moly in the last few threads was because I've always disagreed with your position on the MLEP. I posted the thread regarding the MLEP because I wanted to basically say, "Hey look guys, if you think MLEP is so good, look at this!" At the same time, I tried to prove my point that the MLEP isn't going to do what you intended it to do, boost the additive pack, assuming you were trying to boost the moly in particular to 400+ppms. NO way jose, but adding a bottle of MMO to any oil except Exxon Superflo or Chevron/Havoline won't accomplish that.

RR, I'd really like to see you defend your reasoning behind the addition of the MLEP. There is nothing really that special to the "special Factory Fill sauce" except for the high moly. The oil's overall additive pack doesn't really stand out compared to Havoline anyway except for the king-sized moly dose.

Take a look at the 350mile UOA I have of the factory fill of a Honda Accord 4-cyl and compare it side-by-side with the VOA of Havoline 5W/30 in the VOA thread I posted, willing to bet you that the Havoline is more robust, so please, at that point, explain to me why you still want to "soup up" the additive package on an oil such as Havoline, or on another oil (pointless because you can't boost it up to par without adding unsafe amounts of MMO).

Michael

SodaLuvr

Comparison between Honda Factory Fill (taken from 05 Accord 4-cyl after 350 miles, 5W/20) and Havoline 5W/30. I only posted the relevant parts of the analysis, the additives.

Honda on the left, Havoline on the right.

Moly 298/360
Boron 9/54
Calcium 1939/1556
Magnesium 7/36
Phosphorus 835/609
Zinc 886/749

Yes, the Honda oil has more Zinc, Phosphorus, and Calcium. Why? Thats because its a GF-3, SL oil. Once Honda starts using the SM, GF-4 oils, the additive contents will match the Havoline's.

Michael

SodaLuvr

Just to clarify,
The new regulations call for the Phosphorus to stay below 600ppm, and a similar regulation for the Zinc (don't recall exact number, but I think its either 700 or 800ppm). Calcium should stay under 2000ppm, both pass the test on this one.

Michael

SnappyPappy

Jesus, for a moment there I thought you was my heart doctor and this was my blood test!!! Now how much cholesterol should I accept in my car oil?

DarkWraith33

So you're the IT director of one of these:

1. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Bentonville, Ark.

2. Exxon Mobil Corp., Irving, Texas

3. General Motors Corp., Detroit

4. Ford Motor Co., Dearborn, Mich.

5. General Electric Co., Fairfield, Conn.

And your 2nd car is only an S2000?

You're a baller! You need some :bling:!!!

JetJock

RR...do your write for The Absolute Sound? If so, what are your initials? I've been reading TAS since Issue#1, and didn't realize you wrote about audio.

Xpditor

Let's stick with the thread topic. Questions like this one are best handled with a private message.

SodaLuvr

Off topic, but, I'm guessing America Online. Its headquarters are in Dulles, Virginia.

Michael

Xpditor

Ahem!

Am I talking to myself over here?

Repecat

Almost. lol I started this thread about a month ago, but hopefully am not responsible for the divergence of topics. But maybe I am......who knows?

Xpditor

The topic is oil changes (stretching a little to filters). Forum protocol is to stick to the topic of the originator or start a new thread.

To take off on a tangent is called hijacking the thread and that will bring a mod out from our silent vigil.

You guys can discuss whatever you want as long as it pertains to Acura TLs. Just try to keep the thread on track so that other members can find what they are interested in.

And, of course, so long as you are respectful of each other and use language appropriate to a mixed group.

-XP

nednj36

is there anything wrong with changing oil at 3,000 miles?

SodaLuvr

At 3,000 miles for the first time right?

No problem with that at all, as long as you refill with a high molybdenum oil. The only conventional that has a high molybdenum content, that I know for sure according to a VOA I posted, is Havoline 5W/30.

At the latest, change the factory fill by 3,000 miles. Preferably at 1,000 miles.

Ideally, I suggest doing the first oil/filter change with Havoline 5W/30 (SM, GF-4) at 1,000 miles, running it from 1000-3000, then from 3000-8000, run Havoline 5W/30 (SM, GF-4) as well. After that, use your favorite oil and go by the MID. The reasoning behind the two short intervals, especially the first one, is to “flush out” the wear metals left over from the break-in process. Wear metals typically take two to three oil changes to drop.

Michael

SodaLuvr

Wait, do you mean EVERY 3,000 miles.

Yes, there is something wrong with that.

Unless:
A) Don’t know any better and constantly let your car idle so that there is extremely high fuel dilution in your oil (causes oil to shear)
B) Have a 0.5 mile commute daily
C) Put in only 3,000 miles a year
D) Having some type of mechanical problem with your engine, such as incomplete combustion, excessive blow by, small antifreeze leak that you don’t want to deal with, etc
E) You have some psychological problems and cannot sleep at night or concentrate with what you need to do if you did not change your oil every 3,000 miles

Other than those reasons, there are more but I can think of them at the moment, there is NO need to change your oil/filter every 3,000 miles.

It’s NOT cheap insurance, changing your oil/filter every 3,000 miles won’t keep your engine any cleaner than changing it every 5,000 miles. The cleaner engine with 3K drains is a myth- engine oils lubricate and clean, but only clean to a very limited extent, with the exception of HDEOs and perhaps Group IV synthetics. Even then, the engine will not stay “sparkling clean.” All engines will accumulate a certain amount of sludge, oxidation, varnish, etc over extended periods of time, say 100,000 miles. At that point, two treatments of Auto-RX is your best bet. If you want to keep your engine as clean as possible, use Lube Control (LC) with each oil change. LC will reduce oxidation and varnish, thus reducing sludge formation. But even then, your engine will not stay perfectly clean.

Neither will 3K oil changes protect your engine from failure. Sure, an oil after 3K will have more additive remaining than an oil after 4K, but that does not mean it’ll protect your engine from failure. 3K oil changes won’t lower wear, because engines produce a certain amount of wear metals no matter how often you change your oil.

Don’t even get me started on dirty oil—looks are deceiving. Oil is meant to get dirty, mainly because of blow by. Rings don’t seat perfectly, so there is always going to be some blow by, thus leading to dirty oil. Just because an oil is dirty does not mean it’s not doing its job, oil is mean to lubricate, and yes, clean to a certain extent, so it is meant to get dirty. You should not pay attention to the color of the oil unless its color is abnormal (milky) or unless it turns dark immediately after you change it, though synthetics turn dark very quickly. If your oil turns dark RIGHT after you change it, it’s telling you that your engine is probably very dirty and is in need of Auto-RX, or some method of cleaning up any sludge accumulated. If dirty oil really bugs you, I’d suggest getting a Motor Guard bypass filter. When you change the TP and top off every 3K, your oil will stay sparkling clean. Oil life is often tripled as well, but it may not be the best solution for most people.

That’s all that I have to say for now, but if you don’t trust me, head over to bobistheoilguy and look at UOAs of dinos after 4-5K, there are tons of them, and they prove that 3K drains are unnecessary.

Michael

Xpditor

I went to Wally World (Wal-Mart) today to get some Havoline to change the oil on my friend's Nissan Sentra.

The 10W-30 they had was only SL and GF-3. I think I remembered Road Rage saying that some refiners opted to stay our of GF-4 so that they could keep the higher portions of add mix- such as LE 8130.

Anyone know if Havoline is marketing dino oils as both Group 3 and Group 4?

In this case, the Sentra is a 1996 with 147,000 miles and I don't think it makes a wit of difference one way or the other.

Does anyone know how to reset the check engine light on this Nissan or can you direct me to a resource for the info. He doesn't have an owner's manual.

Nodoze2004

If we should trust Honda/Acura Engineers, then I am right on schedule at 3000 miles for oil changes. My MID displayed <5% oil life at 3400 miles for my very fist oil change. I am now at 6600 miles and the mid is displaying less than 15% oil life, and is also telling me I need B service. The first oil change was done with Mobil 10w30 Synth. I guess there could be something wrong with the engine, but it sure doesn't seem like it! Aside from some rough idle in cold weather starts (cold here in FL is < 60) the car purrs like a kitten and seems to get faster and faster.

So this begs the question, what exactly is the MID doing to calculate the oil change intervals? Is it truly examining particulate matter in the oil, or is it simply using computer data to determine this!?

Either way this car is OPECS best friend. I get an average of 15mpg (this has gone down from 16) with 50/50 hwy city driving. Average speed calcualtion in the mid is usually in the 35mph range. Average tank gets me < 200 miles.

Xpditor

Wow! You must have a really heavy right foot. Or else something is wrong with your car. I also changed at 3400 miles but my MID displayed 50% OIL LIFE, not 5%!

Also, I started getting 17 MPG for city/suburban driving when it was new but that has now improved to 23 MPG for overall average on the Trip Computer.

I don't baby it, either. I don't drive it like a rental but it gets a regular work out.

You might want to have yours checked. Also, check your air pressure in tires. Mine was delivered way low.

SnappyPappy

Something is wrong with those numbers?? Not questioning the authenticity but they do not sound normal. I agree with the fellow about checking yer tire pressure or foot pressure. I'm averaging like 27 mpg over the last 4,000 miles of mixed driving. I changed my orig oil at 5,000 now have 8,000 and the mid is @ 70%. I'm using Mobil1 5/30. I just ordered the K&N air filter and hoping to pick up a slight increase in mileage there also. Yes, I don't blast around a lot ( I let it be frisky occassionally) but I don't baby it either. PS on the mid I'm sure it calculates based on mathematical algorythims (mileage/RPMs/EngineLoad, etcnot particulate evaluations.

Nodoze2004

My car already has the K&N drop in (made no difference to mileage, but did eliminate some of the hesitation when accelerating). I should also note that this car is a 6MT. I have a friend with an 5AT and his mileage differs significantly (much higher).

When is B service typically performed on the car? Should I be getting messages at 6600 miles? Before I get an RTFM I should point out that I am at work don't have access to it.

Pro Stock John

I changed my oil for the first time at 4800. Mid went from 20 to 5% in like 300 miles on my car. I will change the oil at 4K. 4-5 is decent, anything more is just bad for the engine, assuming normal driving. 7K+ is scary. The oil tests I have seen show the oil used past 7K is usually pretty spent.

SodaLuvr

Some is seriously wrong, your fuel economy should be much better than that. In addition, try oil analysis. Its the most accurate way of determining oil change intervals. Make sure you get a TBN reading to determine the amount of active additive left in the oil.

10W-30 is not necessary for this engine. I'm not with Road Rage and the "thicker is better" crowd. Actually, right now, I'm into thin oils at the moment.

THe MID simply calculates the intervals based on vehicle speed and driving conditions. It does not monitor the condition of the oil

Michael