October issue of Car and Driver
09-16-2005, 11:50 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by VChron
C&D acted correctly. Keep in mind that the ultimate objective of these tests is to guage the performance of the models - not the test samples, which are merely the means to the end.
So if that is the case, why did they use the 0-60 data for the test for the S60R where the S60R had a much faster 0-60 that C&D scored previously. Oh yeah, and another disadvantage is using turbo cars in 100deg temperaturs. Like those are going to come out on top in the power comparison. A comparison should be made based upon the test samples provided to them. I sure as hell wouldn't want a car that lit up like a Christmas tree. If they are all based on previous data or whatnot, why not just use the manufacturer's data and be done with it. No need to compare the cars, just compare the datasheets.
Oh yeah, and apparently C&D didn't pass math in grade school. Didn't go into all the numbers but the IS and BMW are TIED!
09-17-2005, 10:35 AM
#43
Moderator Alumnus
I was able to testdrive IS350 and IS250 AWD and BMW 330i today. That IS is really the killer. Except the response of acceleration, IS350 "almost" outraces 330i, IMO.
09-17-2005, 11:45 AM
#44
Banned
Originally Posted by rets
I was able to testdrive IS350 and IS250 AWD and BMW 330i today. That IS is really the killer. Except the response of acceleration, IS350 "almost" outraces 330i, IMO.
I'd still take a TL before a IS.
09-17-2005, 12:09 PM
#45
Moderator Alumnus
If next TL is gonna add some features new IS has... great...
Originally Posted by Saintor
Heard that before. Never happened. If the IS is like the GS, no worry; it is a dull car. Business-like, nothing as closely emotional and engaging like the 330i.
I'd still take a TL before a IS.
I'd still take a TL before a IS.
Well, I still prefer my roomy TL... if Acura is willing to add SH-AWD and the keyless system, it would be even better.
09-17-2005, 02:37 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Saintor
Get REAL.
How about *this*; the 330i won ALL the comparos it was in (North America).
It is the one that is the most likely to bring you a large smile on your face. It is simply The Best Toy and it has tons of character (much more than others).
And reliability for first years have been quite good. Despite a reliability just above average , the level of satisfaction of 3-series owners is the best of the industry.
Respect for the king, please.
How about *this*; the 330i won ALL the comparos it was in (North America).
It is the one that is the most likely to bring you a large smile on your face. It is simply The Best Toy and it has tons of character (much more than others).
And reliability for first years have been quite good. Despite a reliability just above average , the level of satisfaction of 3-series owners is the best of the industry.
Respect for the king, please.
09-17-2005, 02:42 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Mike H.
So if that is the case, why did they use the 0-60 data for the test for the S60R where the S60R had a much faster 0-60 that C&D scored previously. Oh yeah, and another disadvantage is using turbo cars in 100deg temperaturs. Like those are going to come out on top in the power comparison. A comparison should be made based upon the test samples provided to them. I sure as hell wouldn't want a car that lit up like a Christmas tree. If they are all based on previous data or whatnot, why not just use the manufacturer's data and be done with it. No need to compare the cars, just compare the datasheets.
We would all agree that, if the BMW was a ringer (i.e, had special performance-enhancing features not typical of the model), the test would be unfair and the results invalid. Same reason: It is not representative and so is inconsistent with the test objective. If you apply this principle consistently you'll find several issues with the review - some due to bad decisions, others due to the inherent problems of single-sample testing. Good reason to take these reviews with a grain of salt.
None of us wants a car that lights up like a Christmas tree, but meaningful reliability results can only be obtained from large (pseudo-)random samples of about 100 or more cars. It would be silly to rate reliablity based on a single-sample road test. Use sources such as JD Power, Consumer Reports and MSN Autos for reliability ratings.
09-17-2005, 03:20 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by VChron
None of us wants a car that lights up like a Christmas tree, but meaningful reliability results can only be obtained from large (pseudo-)random samples of about 100 or more cars.
09-17-2005, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike H.
True but at the same time you'd figure BMW would test their car before handing it over to C&D or at least have BMW ship a replacement vehicle. Instead they have a lemon of a car that presumedly wins the comparo.
09-17-2005, 05:21 PM
#51
Originally Posted by cp3117
Wow nice ride....the TL is cheaper but when you see a ride like that you know its german styling and the asian market just can't get that down....
09-19-2005, 02:36 PM
#52
BMW "wins"
Originally Posted by Mike H.
Instead they have a lemon of a car that presumedly wins the comparo.
09-19-2005, 02:59 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by priggly
From the article:
Our 330i labored hard to lose. The electrical ticks began shortly after it was delivered. The new 3-series has a push-button start. Ours would work only after several exasperated pushes and fiddling with the key. Why, we wondered in the free moments this created, must you even insert the "key" into the dash when many push-button systems, including the IS350's, allow the radio-transmitting key fob to roam free?
Then the ABS lamp lit. We tried to execute one stop on our high-desert test road and nearly executed a 360 spin at 70 mph instead (thus, our braking number is from a previous test). Shortly thereafter several airbag-malfunction warnings lit up. Maybe it was just a coincidence.
Even with its dash ablaze in emergency alerts, the 330i wormed its way into our hearts.
This article completely negates any reputation C&D had left as an objective source for automotive information and informed opinion. The magazine reveals itself to be nothing less than a BMW shill. Instead of failing the test, or at least coming dead last, as it most clearly deserved to, the BMW is awarded first place! Absolutely incredible!
This is analogous to a student totally flunking a critical part of an exam but the teacher instead of awarding the obviously deserved failing grade decides to overlook it based on performance in an earlier test and even goes so far as to replace the failing mark with the favorable test score from the previous test for the particular task in question.
This incident further underscores what is becoming a culture of deceptiveness in the greater society superimposed upon a progressive lowering of standards.
Sad. Very sad indeed.
Our 330i labored hard to lose. The electrical ticks began shortly after it was delivered. The new 3-series has a push-button start. Ours would work only after several exasperated pushes and fiddling with the key. Why, we wondered in the free moments this created, must you even insert the "key" into the dash when many push-button systems, including the IS350's, allow the radio-transmitting key fob to roam free?
Then the ABS lamp lit. We tried to execute one stop on our high-desert test road and nearly executed a 360 spin at 70 mph instead (thus, our braking number is from a previous test). Shortly thereafter several airbag-malfunction warnings lit up. Maybe it was just a coincidence.
Even with its dash ablaze in emergency alerts, the 330i wormed its way into our hearts.
This article completely negates any reputation C&D had left as an objective source for automotive information and informed opinion. The magazine reveals itself to be nothing less than a BMW shill. Instead of failing the test, or at least coming dead last, as it most clearly deserved to, the BMW is awarded first place! Absolutely incredible!
This is analogous to a student totally flunking a critical part of an exam but the teacher instead of awarding the obviously deserved failing grade decides to overlook it based on performance in an earlier test and even goes so far as to replace the failing mark with the favorable test score from the previous test for the particular task in question.
This incident further underscores what is becoming a culture of deceptiveness in the greater society superimposed upon a progressive lowering of standards.
Sad. Very sad indeed.
And just think how the TL would have been crucified in this test, if it had performed as dismally as the 'holier than though Bimmer'. So much for objectivity!
09-19-2005, 03:48 PM
#54
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My friend has had a 328i for about 7 years now, and it hasn't had any service issues except for one recall, which BMW fixed. It's not really that bad, I think people are going overboard with this service thing.
09-19-2005, 05:45 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by Tecworld
My friend has had a 328i for about 7 years now, and it hasn't had any service issues except for one recall, which BMW fixed. It's not really that bad, I think people are going overboard with this service thing.
Let's put this in perspective here.
Regards,
09-19-2005, 06:19 PM
#56
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That article is very misleading. It should be titled "Best sport sedans between $35-50K.
Reason I did not pursue a 330ci was price. I was looking at over $40K, like $42K I recall.
Car and Driver is pretty anti-FWD so it would be a miracle if they judged the TL fairly.
Reason I did not pursue a 330ci was price. I was looking at over $40K, like $42K I recall.
Car and Driver is pretty anti-FWD so it would be a miracle if they judged the TL fairly.
09-19-2005, 06:59 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
That article is very misleading. It should be titled "Best sport sedans between $35-50K.
Reason I did not pursue a 330ci was price. I was looking at over $40K, like $42K I recall.
Car and Driver is pretty anti-FWD so it would be a miracle if they judged the TL fairly.
Reason I did not pursue a 330ci was price. I was looking at over $40K, like $42K I recall.
Car and Driver is pretty anti-FWD so it would be a miracle if they judged the TL fairly.
This just further underscores their bias and lack of objectivity given that both the TSX and the new RL are part of C&D's 2005 10 Best.
So I guess they selectively dislike FWD - only when it suits them (although the RL has SH-AWD, it FWD based).
Bottom line - I really don't care what they think. My '04 TL is one of the best cars I have ever owned (it already has 42,000 miles in only 22 months). I think I will be keeping it for long while!
Regards,
09-21-2005, 06:36 AM
#59
I live in Ma and have both cars and the G was fine last winter with about 8 feet of snow for the season. Both cars had snows on them. If you know how to drive you'll have no problems. But given your logic you should go for the G35x... since you live in MA.
09-21-2005, 09:27 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by mickey3c
I live in Ma and have both cars and the G was fine last winter with about 8 feet of snow for the season. Both cars had snows on them. If you know how to drive you'll have no problems. But given your logic you should go for the G35x... since you live in MA.
09-21-2005, 05:20 PM
#61
I grab the Gs.... I do not grab the acuras that much... But I live in an area where the road is a little bit hilly. When I was in the acura (with all seasons) if I do not get a decent run at it the slight hill or had to stop it was tough to get going again. The winter shoes were as different as night and day. And as you know back in the day there was no traction control... it was how well you knew the car and how you could feather the throttle... etc.
sure the fwd tl might be a bit better, but don't look at it as night and day.. Those ELs are marginal when new, let alone 12,000 miles of driving with the winter season coming up.
As for regular clear road driving, the G feels a bit better to me (road feel). I can see the corners really well in the G. The less attractive bumps around the head lamp area really allow you to see the edges of the car. The TL slopes more and while it might have better lines to the person standing outside the car, it is much harder to see over the hood. The G pulls the same ore better on the skid pad with 55 series tires compared to the 45s on the TL. So the g is a tad more forgiving.
More low end torque in the G. Both cars have their good points... kind of like a sweet spot. At a certain speed in a certain gear if you punch it the car really takes off.. that goes for the tl as well as the G. The G is geared lower so it is going to rev a bit more.
I have hit the rev limiter in both cars... neither engine complained...
Have had no issues with the G the TL has been back a couple of times... 14,000 on the G 16000 on the tl...
sure the fwd tl might be a bit better, but don't look at it as night and day.. Those ELs are marginal when new, let alone 12,000 miles of driving with the winter season coming up.
As for regular clear road driving, the G feels a bit better to me (road feel). I can see the corners really well in the G. The less attractive bumps around the head lamp area really allow you to see the edges of the car. The TL slopes more and while it might have better lines to the person standing outside the car, it is much harder to see over the hood. The G pulls the same ore better on the skid pad with 55 series tires compared to the 45s on the TL. So the g is a tad more forgiving.
More low end torque in the G. Both cars have their good points... kind of like a sweet spot. At a certain speed in a certain gear if you punch it the car really takes off.. that goes for the tl as well as the G. The G is geared lower so it is going to rev a bit more.
I have hit the rev limiter in both cars... neither engine complained...
Have had no issues with the G the TL has been back a couple of times... 14,000 on the G 16000 on the tl...
09-21-2005, 11:03 PM
#62
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woaw man you have really told me a lot more than i expected from a forum poster.. i can see you are a true enthusiast with the best of both worlds within my spectrum. i guess to me, it will really have to come down to. the awkward looks, low end torque, and rwd, with the magical VQ35. to the more sleek looks, notorious honda lag at low ends, but the safety of the fwd, and an unknown powerplant, at least to me. HA HA HA.. i wish i could come over and take both of your rides for a beat run... aint happening, i know. regardless, i will have to deepen my research and plunge into the depths of the turbulent waters of the dealerships and attempt test drives of both beasts and narrow down my choices. i admit, if i wasn't biased against coupes, the G coupe sport would be a hands down choice. but i think for looks and practicality alone i'd go for a TL as opposed to a z350, which i don't feel attracted to. might just be the 2seater factor. regardless, i will have to spend more time around this forum and lurk the "other" forum and see what they are saying over there. thanks again mickey. EP.
09-21-2005, 11:16 PM
#63
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could i ask you about paint quality?.. chips, dings, or anything that either cars' paint jobs stand out of the ordinary?. i am aware that nissan's paint is notoriously cheap. infiniti may or not be the same story. honda was ok back in 86, Acura nowadays maybe totally different.
09-22-2005, 06:07 AM
#64
ah paint. The 99 TL I had sucked big time. I would wash the car myself and The paint would literally get power washed off... The 2g was a bit better but driving along I495 and the dreaded widening of R3 north of boston accounted for 3 windshields, a repainted bumper, and some blemishes. Both cars have a clear bra on and except for one stone that was probably kicked up during this year's I95 paving, the bras are doing their jobs... I would say acura has improved their paint job... yea I know we would like better.
As for infiniti, this is my first one so I cannot make any judgement calls from the past.
As for infiniti, this is my first one so I cannot make any judgement calls from the past.
09-22-2005, 08:02 AM
#65
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What about interior quality?
The TL is a class above the G in terms of the quality of plastics and fabric, even the updated '05 G. The seat controls are really oddly placed in the G, as well as too much hard plastic for my taste.
Dash layout is personal taste, but the G's air vents and dash design is just a bit screwy. And the old school radio (volume knob on the wrong side) with orange led's is tacky. But then again Nissan seems to be taking a different design road on that stuff (like the Maxima, and Qwest van).
The TL is a class above the G in terms of the quality of plastics and fabric, even the updated '05 G. The seat controls are really oddly placed in the G, as well as too much hard plastic for my taste.
Dash layout is personal taste, but the G's air vents and dash design is just a bit screwy. And the old school radio (volume knob on the wrong side) with orange led's is tacky. But then again Nissan seems to be taking a different design road on that stuff (like the Maxima, and Qwest van).
09-22-2005, 01:07 PM
#66
Originally Posted by 56Oval
What about interior quality?
The TL is a class above the G in terms of the quality of plastics and fabric, even the updated '05 G. The seat controls are really oddly placed in the G, as well as too much hard plastic for my taste.
Dash layout is personal taste, but the G's air vents and dash design is just a bit screwy. And the old school radio (volume knob on the wrong side) with orange led's is tacky. But then again Nissan seems to be taking a different design road on that stuff (like the Maxima, and Qwest van).
The TL is a class above the G in terms of the quality of plastics and fabric, even the updated '05 G. The seat controls are really oddly placed in the G, as well as too much hard plastic for my taste.
Dash layout is personal taste, but the G's air vents and dash design is just a bit screwy. And the old school radio (volume knob on the wrong side) with orange led's is tacky. But then again Nissan seems to be taking a different design road on that stuff (like the Maxima, and Qwest van).
Well you are talking more design than quality. The TL has more rattles and is laid out better... But I am not fussing with everything 100% of the time. When the seat is adjusted it rarely gets changed.
I have a house to live in and I do not need to have a car for that ...
BTW old school for me is the push button radio. Once again once it is preset the steering wheel is all I need. The pedals and steering wheel is laid out the same lol so there is no difference.
I would go nuts if I had to listen to rattles all the time. As everyone says no car is perfect, but I am not reaching in the back to change radio settings or anything... So that is not an issue. Once things are set I am concerntrated onthe driving experience and not anything else...
09-22-2005, 06:11 PM
#67
Originally Posted by mickey3c
wow the BMW is a piece of crap quality wise and has gone down hill over the years. I cannot get over all the problems they had with it. The only reason the I350 is there is because of the 5.1 0-60 times and the superior braking. That's it! Save the money and get a G or the TL. That's what the article tell you... Sure get the Bimmer if you can forgive all the quality issues. I wouldn't get a model year IS on a bet.. Tells me you are left with two options...
Last time i check, BMW quality survey is just behind Acura. BMW quality has improved and honda/acura has been sliding.
BMW 3 year dependability was dragged down by the brand new E65 (introduced as 2002 model) and failed bearing on the 2002 M3. Otherwise it would have topped Acura/Honda in JD power survey.
09-22-2005, 10:20 PM
#68
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http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=8
i would never base my purchasing choice on a magazine article, but i would highly take it into consideration. like Mickey said, once the seat, radio options or other secondary factors are overcame. the driving experience is the ultimate goal of any car enthusiast such as ourselves. after reading spec sheets and some reviews on both cars on different sights i am leaning toward the G, even though i am a bit more attracted to the TL looks. Price is another factor where i could get into the 6mt G sedan for a couple of large under the TL. i know it is not right for me to say these things in this forum. but since the topic is here i might as well mention it. once i take both cars for a serious test run then i will make my final decision.. who knows? i might end up getting a CTS... NOT!
i would never base my purchasing choice on a magazine article, but i would highly take it into consideration. like Mickey said, once the seat, radio options or other secondary factors are overcame. the driving experience is the ultimate goal of any car enthusiast such as ourselves. after reading spec sheets and some reviews on both cars on different sights i am leaning toward the G, even though i am a bit more attracted to the TL looks. Price is another factor where i could get into the 6mt G sedan for a couple of large under the TL. i know it is not right for me to say these things in this forum. but since the topic is here i might as well mention it. once i take both cars for a serious test run then i will make my final decision.. who knows? i might end up getting a CTS... NOT!
09-22-2005, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SebringSilver
Just buy whatever the heck you like. Who cares what anybody else says?
oh of course, no doubt about that. it's just that i like to sink myself in my research and get as much feedback as i can from my peers. after my last post i ran over to www.vehix.com and checked out the interior 360 view of both cars and from what i see is that the acura has a more ergonomically sound interior.. the G's interior falls behind the TL without a doubt. but like i said b4 if the G's feel at the throttle and the shifter make me feel warmer inside, the interior will be secondary. but if the latter applies to the TL then the choice will be that much easier to make.
09-23-2005, 12:08 AM
#71
Registered Abuser of VTEC
Originally Posted by EPVQ30
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=8
i would never base my purchasing choice on a magazine article, but i would highly take it into consideration. like Mickey said, once the seat, radio options or other secondary factors are overcame. the driving experience is the ultimate goal of any car enthusiast such as ourselves. after reading spec sheets and some reviews on both cars on different sights i am leaning toward the G, even though i am a bit more attracted to the TL looks. Price is another factor where i could get into the 6mt G sedan for a couple of large under the TL. i know it is not right for me to say these things in this forum. but since the topic is here i might as well mention it. once i take both cars for a serious test run then i will make my final decision.. who knows? i might end up getting a CTS... NOT!
i would never base my purchasing choice on a magazine article, but i would highly take it into consideration. like Mickey said, once the seat, radio options or other secondary factors are overcame. the driving experience is the ultimate goal of any car enthusiast such as ourselves. after reading spec sheets and some reviews on both cars on different sights i am leaning toward the G, even though i am a bit more attracted to the TL looks. Price is another factor where i could get into the 6mt G sedan for a couple of large under the TL. i know it is not right for me to say these things in this forum. but since the topic is here i might as well mention it. once i take both cars for a serious test run then i will make my final decision.. who knows? i might end up getting a CTS... NOT!
Infiniti G35
M6 Sedan Model with Navigation Package $ 48,190
Acura TL
Dynamic Package with Navigation $45,300
In order to get the manual in the Infiniti, it requires you to buy the premium and aero packages included as one thing called an M6 package. Too bad if you don't want the aero package, it makes you get it. If you plan on getting Nav, Acura's is much better. HOWEVER, and this is a big one, buy the one that makes you smile. It's actually more expensive to trade a newer car in then it is to just pay the extra little bit for the car you want. You have to go with your emotions sometimes when it comes to buying cars.
09-23-2005, 12:28 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by EPVQ30
oh of course, no doubt about that. it's just that i like to sink myself in my research and get as much feedback as i can from my peers. after my last post i ran over to www.vehix.com and checked out the interior 360 view of both cars and from what i see is that the acura has a more ergonomically sound interior.. the G's interior falls behind the TL without a doubt. but like i said b4 if the G's feel at the throttle and the shifter make me feel warmer inside, the interior will be secondary. but if the latter applies to the TL then the choice will be that much easier to make.
If you want speed and handling the G is your baby, no real questions there. But you've got to know the TL's 6MT is no slouch by any means.
Gas mileage is better in the TL from what I hear from my coworkers (three of them have the G35/G35x and report upper teens/low twenties). Other coworker and I have the TL and are getting mid twenties.
I'd really like to see what Mickey3c reports on his mileage since he is the same guy driving each car (presumably with similar driving styles).
I, being a superficial sort, cared more about:
1) body styling (TL has better looks, IMHO)
2) interior quality/layout
3) electronic gadgetry (bluetooth, nav)
4) rear seat room
5) enough power handling to keep me happy 90% of the time.
Anyhow, check them both out in person. I test drove both several times and ended up with the TL because of the reasons I list above.
09-23-2005, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mickey3c
I would go nuts if I had to listen to rattles all the time. As everyone says no car is perfect, but I am not reaching in the back to change radio settings or anything... So that is not an issue. Once things are set I am concerntrated onthe driving experience and not anything else...
If it is driving experience, let's talk Lotus Elise. <grin!>
09-23-2005, 02:41 AM
#74
Cold Racketeer
I'm going to start a magazine and editorialize about how bmw cars would be perfect sport sedans if only that power would come thru the front wheels. Gets tiresome hearing that in every review of acuras. WE GET IT.
09-23-2005, 06:19 AM
#75
Gas mileage is better in the TL from what I hear from my coworkers (three of them have the G35/G35x and report upper teens/low twenties). Other coworker and I have the TL and are getting mid twenties.
I'd really like to see what Mickey3c reports on his mileage since he is the same guy driving each car (presumably with similar driving styles).
I get mid 20s on the TL I have been known to get upwards of 28. The G is about 3 less in all conditions. I cannot believe the stories I hear about the gas mileage...but... I do see 75 mph each day for about 20 miles and about 10 miles of round town. The long trips I get the upper ranges of course. My 2G always got 26-27 avg. If you are driving a G35x then prepared for the 17/24 that is what they get. Someone I work with averages 23. Same deal on this car the stability assist comes on a tad early but you can disable it. I hear 87 octane does not allow you to go above 4000RPMS...but I am not going to test that out!
I'd really like to see what Mickey3c reports on his mileage since he is the same guy driving each car (presumably with similar driving styles).
I get mid 20s on the TL I have been known to get upwards of 28. The G is about 3 less in all conditions. I cannot believe the stories I hear about the gas mileage...but... I do see 75 mph each day for about 20 miles and about 10 miles of round town. The long trips I get the upper ranges of course. My 2G always got 26-27 avg. If you are driving a G35x then prepared for the 17/24 that is what they get. Someone I work with averages 23. Same deal on this car the stability assist comes on a tad early but you can disable it. I hear 87 octane does not allow you to go above 4000RPMS...but I am not going to test that out!
09-24-2005, 12:51 AM
#76
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a few miles difference on a fill up wont make that much of a diff on the purchasing decision. thank you for the input on the mpg though. once you get up on this class vehicle gas wont differ THAT much.. now if you're comparing a 6 and a 8 bangger then that's a bigger diff in car price and mpg.. i'm really not big on the guzzlers myself. if i can blow the competition away off the line, 5 mpg diff is well worth it though.
09-24-2005, 01:04 AM
#77
Cruisin'
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Beantown
Posts: 16
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Originally Posted by mickey3c
I'd really like to see what Mickey3c reports on his mileage since he is the same guy driving each car (presumably with similar driving styles).
what's the deally with the mpg anyway?
09-24-2005, 10:17 PM
#80
g35driver but they do not have as mnay people as they do in here... But they have discussions about brakes, issues, etc.
There are a fair amount of mods that people discuss as well.
There are a fair amount of mods that people discuss as well.