erick3

OKAY WOW! So I've been researching for about one hour now, and I still don't seem to understand this whole ordeal with "higher octane, does not equal more power". I'm looking for some sort of octane booster; I just want a little bit more power to play around tomorrow (WITH A JERK......I really HATE this guy ...RX8). Is there really no way to get ANY more boost? Everyone seems to say that octane boost is a waste of money and that it does jack crap. However, on the other hand, some say that (in particular) the Lucas Fuel Additives work miracles; increasing power, getting rid of ping (I have lots and I use 92 Octane Chevron), blah blah blah. HELP

I'm running V-Power right now (get's better gas mileage -> they weren't lying!)

SOOO YAY? NAY? on the Octane Boost or Fuel Additives? ACURA OF LYNNWOOD sells octane boost! (that stupid NOS bottle additive? and some redline crap i think)

HELP REPRESENT ALL TL'S.............................................. ...........hahah ...yeah i know

THANKS!!!!!!!

erick3

COME ON...............anyone? anybody? lol..........*sigh* my head hurts!!!!!!!

sifuacura

iTrader: (1)

Iuno what to say, but i always put vpower from shell also and i dont feel any difference in boost. The gasoline works silently i guess.

erick3

uhhh...lol?

I hate cars

You shouldn't have a problem with an RX8. My auto TL beats them pretty good.

As for octane boosters, don't waste your money. When they say they boost octane a certain number of points, like 7 points, that means it will take 91 octane to 91.7 octane. Run toulene or xylene from Home Depot in a 20-30% mixture and it will boost 92 to almost 100 octane. Doesn't hurt 02s, convertors, or fuel components as long as you keep it under 30%.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

I'd have to say they must be automatics, as the manual versions are around 5.9/6.0 (0-60) seconds, while the automatics run around 7.5 (0-60).

SouthernBoy

Using gasoline with octane ratings higher than what you engine is design to use is not only wasting money, your engine will produce less power and burn more fuel. This has been gone over and over so many times on this forum, you'd be amazed. Some people just refuse to believe this and that is their choice. But they are only fooling themselves.

There are only two ways common ways to take advantage of increased octane: more spark advance and a higher mechanical, or forced, compression ratio. In both of these instances, a higher octane fuel is needed.

You say your engine pings a lot. Is there any chance that your engine may have been fed octane boosters in the past?

SouthernBoy

I am doing a re-post of this response because I exceede my 5 minute editing limitation.


Using gasoline with octane ratings higher than what your engine is design to use is not only wasting money but your engine will produce less power and burn more fuel. This has been gone over and over so many times on this forum, you'd be amazed. Some people just refuse to believe this and that is their choice. But they are only fooling themselves.

Octane is added to fuel to ward off the onset of premature ignition (ping) and detonation (an actual explosion in the cylinders). It raises a fuel's ignition point. Quickly Compressing a fuel/air mixture creates a LOT of heat which can cause a lower octane fuel to detonate instead of ignite. The same thing can occur after ignition. As the flame front spreads across the combustion chamber, pressures, and heat, rise rapidly. A pocket of fresh charge can detonate because of this. Higher octane fuels protect against these destructive forces in high compression engines.

There are only two ways common ways to take advantage of increased octane: more spark advance and a higher mechanical, or forced, compression ratio. In both of these instances, a higher octane fuel is needed.

You say your engine pings a lot. Is there any chance that your engine may have been fed octane boosters in the past?

Jesstzn

If your pinging a lot .. then there is something wrong with the sensor system ... even with 87 octane it shouldn't ping if all is doing its job.

You sure the ping you think you have isn't the drive shaft dampener.

As fot the above post he is 100% correct .. if your engines design is capable of using 91 or 94 or 96 octane using 104 is a waste as the engine will still only use what is design limitations are.

If in fact you are pinging its time for a trip to the dealer to see why before you pound the bearings to death...

erick3

haw! NEVER nuh uh...NEVER has it been given octane boost...that's why I wanted to try it!...acura of lynnwood says that there's absolutely NOTHING that can be done about the ping -_- but it's getting to the point where the engine's knocking and pinging past 2500 rpms...loud and clear.

erick3

wait, you think it could be cause of the cold air intake? (fujita)? more air available to readily combust w/o enough gas? octane?...........

erick3

oh yeah, and it's a Manual 6 Speed...boooooo

kantonm

My last car was an 04 RX-8 6SP... the car is quick, if you know how to drive it.... you have to beat the crap out of it to get any power out of it. There is NO power under 5K... the TL is quick off the line... shouldn't be a problem... most people are afraid of hurting their car....

TzarChasm

The entire point of octane is to reduce the explosiveness of the gas. This reduces it's potential to produce power. The reason it confuses people is; cars with more power often require higher octane and so people associate the car's power with the octane, when it's actually all about the engine. In order to make more power, car makers can increase compression and timing but in doing that, they run the risk of the gas exploding too soon and and really doing damage to the engine. So what they do is add octane to reduce explosiveness so the engine does not eat itself. Please do not confuse the fact that frequently engines that use higher octane are more powerful, it's not a function of the gas they are using producing more power. It is a function of the gas they are forced to use to keep the engine from damaging itself.

01tl4tl

Pinging- detonation bad running- sounds like a job for Seafoam to clean the internals and injectors. You do need to clean out that stuff on our cars- I dont care what the owner book says- aziners swear by the treatment and results

Octane is rated in full points not 1/10s

Redline SI-1 fuel cleaner great stuff in gas tank

Lucas fuel cleaner adds 3 octane points when used 1.75 oz per 1 gallon of fuel
per their tech help guy

SouthernBoy

If you don't mind my adding something here. I'm sure most all are aware that the fuel/air mix drawn into an engine's cylinders does not explode.. it burns, as in a controlled burn. As this poster mentions, explosions are very bad in automobile engines and are usually referred to as detonation.

Just wanted to make sure the difference between a burn and an explosion is understood.

SouthernBoy

The reason I asked about whether or not you had ever added an octane boost to your fuel is this. Higher than needed octane fuel burns less efficiently in an engine. This means that an increased amount of carbon will be deposited on the tops of the pistons, the valve faces, and the combustion chamber. The effect of this is to inadvertently raise the compression ratio which will then actually require a higher octane fuel.

However, since you have stated that you have never added such an additive, the problem is elsewhere, which I thought it was anyway. Take your car into a reputable shop or perhaps an Acura dealer and have them diagnose the problem and read the codes. Possible causes are a malfunctioning OX sensor, a failing EGR valve (which would also manifest itself in lower mileage and less power), dirty fuel injectors, MAP sensor, ambient temperature sensor, and even a possible ECU problem.

The ping you are describing is more than likely a result of ignition timing.. as in rampant and indiscriminate jumping (like surging or hunting for the correct degree setting for a given RPM and load). Also a lean fuel mix coupled with the timing issue can cause this.

Let us know what the outcome is.

I hate cars

Without compression it only burns. With comrpession it explodes or burns very fast if you like. Maybe I'm wrong but I always though of exploding the same as burning very fast. Everyone lumps detonation and preignition together as the same thing and I don't even feel like getting into that discussion again.

To the original poster, I always err on the side of too much octane. It's not going to hurt performance nearly as bad as not enough octane. If the car is already detonating on 92, something is probably wrong with it but none the less, more octane will make it faster.

SouthernBoy

No sir. In a normally operating gasoline reciprocating piston engine, the fuel/air mixture burns.. it does not explode. Believe me, you do NOT want the mixture to explode in your engine. Very bad things will result from such an event.

I hate cars

Lol. I've pulled my motor apart that lost compression on one cylinder only to have the piston and top ring land come out in separate pieces. That was being 17 years old and trying to run 25psi on 92 octane.

ChucksCL-S

I want to add that pre ignition causes the STILL RISING PISTON to get hit with the exploding fuel-air mixture; the sound you hear is the piston rattling side to side against the rings and cylinder walls. Very bad. The spark plug should light off the mixture somewhere close to TDC, top dead center. Just my 2CW.

I hate cars

I wouldn't say that it's still. I don't know what kind of WOT timing the TL runs. My other car ran 18 degrees before top dead center on pump gas so the mixture started lighting off while the piston was still moving up. All cars ignite it just before TDC and the idea is to get the majority of the force on the piston as it's just starting it's decent down.

Preignition by itself will cause you to lose power because the buring air/fuel mixture tries to force the piston back down the wrong way. Then factor in the knock sensor pulling timing and you have a pretty good power loss.

The sound is the exploding mixture causing a "vibration" for lack of a better word through the block. Ever hear an air cooled turbo Porsche detonate? It's a nasty sound without the water to dampen the sound.

mishar

That’s right. I would just add that burning front speed is 20 yard/sec and explosion 2000 yard/sec, so that almost instantaneous pressure jump is knocking on pistons and cylinder head. That’s sound we hear.

mishar

Pre ignition goes easily to 45° at the crank shaft at high rpm’s. Initial burning starts at the sparkplug and it is very very small. It needs some time to develop, so there is more pre ignition at higher rpm in order to get full burning at the TDC. Pinging sound is, as I just sad, that extremely fast pressure rise that knocks at the combustion chamber from inside.

I hate cars

I agree, but did you mean "timing" instead of "pre-ignition"? 45 degrees is crazy. I'm so used to turbo cars where 28 degrees requires C-16 gas.

mishar

I meant that spark is fired 45° before TDC. At idle it is usually 5-10°, but it goes more and more advanced with rpm. Initial burning is slow and at 6000 rpm there is so short time to develop full combustion. Not to speak about 19000 rpm.

SouthernBoy

The spark advance at idle spoken of here is called "initial timing". Prior to full ECU ignition control, and of course before the advent of ECUs, intial timing was set by looseing the distributor yoke (clamp) bolt and turning the distributor by hand while aiming a timing light at the harmonic balancer and the mark plate on the engine block (I still have the last timing light I bought about 20 years ago).

My '88 Mustang LX 302CID factory spec was 10 degrees initial advance. Most cars spec'd somewhere between 8 and 14 degrees BTDC initial. I used to set my Mustang at 12 degrees initial. Advancing the initial timing increases throttle response significantly, and really makes the engine pull harder.

I'm sure my '04 TL Service Manual has the specs in it for the timing settings but since it is all 100% controlled by the ECU, I don't fret it anymore. I very strongly suspect that the ECU was tuned to deliver maximum advance at any given RPM, short of the onset of ping. The reason I suspect this is because our engines are rather small in the displacement department at 196 cubic inches. Yet they do a really excellent job of pulling around a 3500 pound car. My '04 manual TL has superb throttle response for what it is and strong spark advance is definitely a part of this picture.. as is an 11.00:1 compression ratio.

TzarChasm

I hate cars:
You obviously know a bit about cars, so why do you try so hard to violently agree with anything anyone else says. The guy says it burns fast, you say "well thats the same thing as exploding anyway". The guy says the noise is the piston rattling side to side, you have to go on to say it's "vibration". WTF is the difference? Why spend your time picking apart people's posts that are correct but don't meet your standards of syntax. You probably have some good advice to offer, stop with the " I agree, but did you mean "timing" instead of "pre-ignition"?" If you feel a burning need to make yourself look smart, do it by making intelligent posts, not looking for minute differences in others posts.

I hate cars

If you read my reply back to the exploding vs burning fast, it was more a question than a disagreement. Once he replied back, I didn't dispute it. I honestly wasn't completely sure about it.

The noise from detonation sends a vibration throughout the block. This is why the knock sensor is screwed into the block, to pick up on that frequency of that particular vibration. It's not the piston rattling side to side. There is so much mis-information on this site presented as fact. When I'm not sure of something, I ask questions or say "I think" or something that shows I'm not sure. It gets old hearing some of this stuff.

I knew what the guy meant in regards to pre-ignition vs timing. I knew he knew what he was talking about but typing it wrong. I added that to clarify his post because there's a huge difference in pre-ignition and timing and it would confuse a lot of people.

Finally, I could care less if I look smart or dumb on the internet. I built, tuned, and race my own car in real life that's faster than 99.9% of the cars here. I'm very confident in my abilities and a couple disagreements on here are not going to keep me up at night.

Formula 350

Hmmmmm..... your second post was 13 MINUTES from your first... and in the morning.... give it some time dude....

As others have said, octane does not give you any power...

erick3

LOL gotcha. thanks!!!!

:gheywave:

mishar

Sorry, I forgot to thank you for the correction. Can you say why did I make that mistake?

I hate cars

You should see most of my posts before I read over them. You would think I was drunk if I posted them as is. Even now it's hard to say exactly what I'm thinking which is probably the reason most of my posts come out with a negative tone.
On a personal note, I'm having to take pain killers and it clouds the mind a bit.

mishar

Quote:

Originally Posted by I hate cars

You should see most of my posts before I read over them. You would think I was drunk if I posted them as is. Even now it's hard to say exactly what I'm thinking which is probably the reason most of my posts come out with a negative tone.

Talking to me? That’s how my Avatar has chosen me.

Sorry about the rest.

sol_da_man

someone beat me to it, higher octane does not equal higher power. that's crazy that Lynnwood sells octane boost, Hinshaw's and Seattle both don't sell anything like that. not a bad idea business-wise. if they can sell $10 key chains, then they can surely mark-up octane boost for "increased performance".

erick3, just out of curiosity, are you lowered, a-spec kit, TL-S tails, with the 07 blinker mirrors?