BEAR-AvHistory

2006 was the last year for the TL 6spd. For 2007 Honda decided it was a good plan to squeeze a few thousand more out of anyone who wanted a 6spd by forcing them into the type "S" to get it.

BEAR-AvHistory

Glad to hear that....since you did so much research on it do we now agree that, except for your lack of a Limited Slip Differential, our cars have the same basic running gear like the Brembo brakes for instance?

Also, do we agree that with the same basic running gear, the TL 6spd being lighter, having a limited slip differential & delivered with better (summer) tires that out of the box the TL base 6spd will out handle your TL-S 5AT?

If you disagree please explain why you disagree & document it with some proof?

S PAW 1

I don't think Acura's intention was to make the TL-S so much faster. The big difference IMO is the level of torque. The car ('7 TL-S) just FEELS more refined than my '05 6MT. The one bug that my '05 had was that if you came over a crest under power, you felt as if you going to leave the road. The '07 feels more planted and secure. Acura attempts to achieve "balance", rather than be the fastest, or "best" in handling. It's a yin/yang thing.
Calm down grasshoppers, and enjoy your ride for what it is

theklassic

No joke. I think we strayed a little off topic. Thanks go to the guys who owned both - their notes should be our basis for comparison.

BEAR-AvHistory

I think you used a bad example because without downforce aids any car will get light under those conditions.

Regardless, I would pose the same question to you as to the other guy. Since the TL-S auto & the TL 6spd run on the same running gear how can you account for that outside the placebo effect?

Nukeman

Think about it before you leap. Our '04 6MTs have the bigger breaks and stiffer sway bars. The slightly added horse is always nice but really doesn't feel a whole lot different. I do like the slightly stiffer suspension, the minor improvements in the Navi (real time traffic) and the HFL does seam a lot more responsive to voice commands. And the front seats feel much nicer and kind of wrap around ya. At times I ask myself,'Why did you do this, it's not all that different' but some of my gripes with the '04 were addressed in the '08 type S so i guess all is good. Anyway good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Nukeman

Think about it before you leap. Our '04 6MTs have the bigger breaks and stiffer sway bars. The slightly added horse is always nice but really doesn't feel a whole lot different. I do like the slightly stiffer suspension, the minor improvements in the Navi (real time traffic) and the HFL does seam a lot more responsive to voice commands. And the front seats feel much nicer and kind of wrap around ya. At times I ask myself,'Why did you do this, it's not all that different' but some of my gripes with the '04 were addressed in the '08 type S so i guess all is good. Anyway good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Acuraboy7

Totally agreed, its not just about being faster, its about how it handles ect

Acuraboy7

See I've owned both a 05 and now 07 and driving a base o7 still feels a little diff, which I can understand, they have changed a few things along the way there too.

S PAW 1

Regardless, I would pose the same question to you as to the other guy. Since the TL-S auto & the TL 6spd run on the same running gear how can you account for that outside the placebo effect?[/QUOTE]


Well, I owned an '05 6MT for 60,000 miles, and I now have an '07 5AT TL-S for about 3,500 miles. The suspension setup's are quite different from spring rates to stabilizer bar thickness. I am a graduate of the Bondurant driving school, so I'm not a bonehead, I did my homework so .........GET OFF IT!

BEAR-AvHistory

TL-S
Front: 27.0 mm diameter
Rear: 20.0 mm diameter

TL-6spd
Front 27.2 mm diameter
Rear 20 mm diameter

You have any documentation on the spring rates as a result of your research?

If you say so. But you sure do act defensive & have yet to provide anything but "because I said so".

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

BEAR... I agree with most of what you've said thus far... You will notice most of the posters here are TL-s drivers, and yes they must justify thier investment, and many don't have the history of the 04-06 model line. I have a 2006 6MT, I test drove an 07 TL-S 6MT. Other than some nice aestetic thihings, there wasn't enough there for me to even consider a trade it, much less the increase in price.

Remember guys, it was the 04-06 success and it's noted sports sedan capabilities that set the bar for the TL-S and other competitors. It came factory with 260HP, Brembos (6Mt), a body style to die for, great interior ammenities... and all for about 32K!

I have a 2006 6MT, I test drove an 07 TL-S 6MT. Suspension is tuned differently, it is a bit stiffer (even more than the 2006 A-spec suspension)...
As for your swaybar numbers, the Types-S uses the same rear sway bar from 2004 6MT, but the front TL-S sway bar is now SOLID = much stiffer than all others.

Power difference was "meh" to me, it's all high rpm. They also installed a clutch release valve that slows tthe release of the clutch (to prevnet teeth chipping clutch drops), so you can't shift as forceful. I didn't know thus during test drive, but i did notice hoe "sling shotty" the shifting was in 1st and 2nd... had to do my research to figure it out. It's funny folks here saying that 0-60 they can't tell a difference, then others say it was Acura's goal to improve torque... If torques was so dramatically improved, you'd FEEL the 0-60 difference. Fact of the matter is a 28 HP upgrade on a 3600 lb car is nice, but "ain't much".

BEAR-AvHistory

Good Post

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that..took a long time even with our self proclaimed "pro-researcher" trying to figure out an answer. I think they got all rapped up in the TL 5AT having an 18 mm rear bar .vs the "S" 20 mm & did not look any further.

It would have been very easy for some of these guys just to have gone to a parts page & noted they have different part numbers then find out why.

The only real question is what the differences in spring rate & stabilizer bar deflection from the 06 6spd to the 07 TL-S actually is. Since the TL-S 5AT is a bit porker some if not all the increase could be taken up by the cars base weight differential.

They have to be careful about going to far out into hard suspension land & staying with the near-luxury image that sell most of the TL's especially with the 5AT.

When you have a car with over 60% of it weight sitting on its front wheels it does not take much of a shift to upset the handling.

I knew they had de-fanged the clutch because the trans is maxed out in torque handling capability with the TL-S's current engine package & wonder what they will do with the new model if the want to move into the 300hp+ class that the competition has moved to this year.

My bottom line on handling is a case can be made for the TL-S 6spd but the heavier TL-S AT5 with no limited slip differential is out of the picture. But then you could always but in stiffer bars, spings & shockes for a lot less the $3-4,000

Black_05_TL_6SP

In the case of the 6MT, Honda will need to start using the 6MT from the NSX, or a close relative. I have seen the 6MT from the NSX take 500+ lb/tq. There is a turboed one out west that is a true dyno queen, she is putting down 800hp, but they keep going through transmissions.

The problem they will run into will be cost. By beefing up the tranny, it will end up costing more money, and at the same time, Acura wants to keep it a luxury sport sedan, not a sports car. I myself to not want to see the next gen TL only available in a AT. I enjoy driving the manual transmission way to much.

And yes, it would be nice to see the spring rate differances in the suspension. I have driven and riden in the back of an 07 type-s, and I sure could feel the difference in the ride, as well as hearing it.

But as most have stated, I could not see trading in my 05 just to get what the Type-S has to offer. If it had been out when I purchased mine, I would have got it, but I am not going to take the $$$ loss to get it now.

I could always just order most of the parts to upgrade mine!!!

None the less, they are all great cars, and we are lucky to own and drive them. Enjoy the car for what it is, A CAR!!! A mode of transportation to get you from point 'A' to point 'B'. No reason for any one to have to justify why they spent the extra $$, they did, they feel it was worth it, so be it.

So everyone quite bickering and go drive your beautifully car. It will put a smile on your face (unless you are stuck in some traffic).

S PAW 1

For lots of factual information directly from Honda concerning springs rates and improvements on the '07 TL/TL-S, I would invite you to read the following:
www.hondanews.com/categories/735/releases/3745
or another way:
www.hondanews.com, pull down the Acura logo, TL, and view the news from 09/08/06.
In my particular comparison, It was my previous '05 TL 6MT to my '07 TL-S AT. As one person mentioned, one of the biggest improvements was going to solid bars.
If still in doubt, do without. I'm gonna go take a ride

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

or you can buy a progress rear and the TL-S front, and get the best of both worlds... That's what I did (still gotta get the front installed, it require a LOT of work).

BEAR-AvHistory

From Honda:

TL
Suspension tuning to enhance ride comfort while maintaining handling performance
Front spring rates reduced by 7 percent from 2006 TL
Shock absorbers and compliance bushing retuned for ride comfort
Thicker hollow front anti-roll bar and new larger diameter hollow rear anti-roll bar
New rear subframe bushings for reduced NVH
Stiffer 17 x 8-inch aluminum-alloy wheels that result in less road noise
Underbody brake strake to reduce brake fade

Features exclusive to the TL Type-S include:
Increased damping rates for superior handling
Rear spring rate increased
A solid front anti-roll bar and thicker rear anti-roll bar
Damper mount stiffness increased 400 percent for enhanced response and feel
Exclusive master cylinder for enhanced brake feel
Brembo 4-piston front brake calipers

Thing is what are they comparing?

They softened up the TL 5AT quite a bit for 2007 based on the info above from Honda

Looks to me like a 2007 TL .vs a 2007 TL-S since one of the features of the TL-S is a Thicker Rear Stabilizer Bar. The "thicker" bar is 20 mm but the 06 6spd also has a 20 mm rear bar? They talk about Brembo calipers but the 06 6spd also has Brembo calipers.

The only specific thing is the solid .vs hollow bar but the wall thickness on the 06 6spd hollow bar is greater then that on the TL 5AT hollow bar so its closer to the TL-S solid bar & its in a lighter car. Question remains what is the effective rate of the bar installed in the car?

Increased spring rate & increased damper as compared to what, a 07 TL 5AT or a 06 6spd which has stronger suspension settings then the 06 TL 5AT? Additionally, the 06 TL 5AT based on the info you provided has stronger settings then the 07 TL 5AT?

Any way enjoy your ride an please avoid any situations where you might need a Limited Slip Differential.

bf17738

i think this has gotten really silly honestly. as someone who has owned both an 04 AT and now an 07 S with AT ..... the cars drive differently i dont care what the official specs say, the cars are different. subtle, but they are different.

there is no reason why people should be insulting anyone on here. are we in elementary school? it's all about peoples' opinions.

anyone can tell there is a difference between the base car and the S. the question is: is the difference enuf to make YOU want one over the other.

here's reality
a new tl-s AT will beat out a new base car AT in acceleration to 60, braking, and handling

a new tl-s MT will probably also beat out an 04-06 base MT in the same tests.


and whoever keeps quoting one magazine source for the data... no one magazine achieves the same 0-60 times, slalom, roadholding, or quarter mile.
i've read all over the internet and have seen 0-60s for the TL-S to be as good as 5.1 sec and as bad as 6.9 sec

Simple stopwatch tests have shown me with the cars that I personally own that the new S is faster than my base TL.

Hope this helps those of you out there that are trying to decide on which model to get.

i love my car and am very happy that i upgraded to the S.


just my $0.02

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

WELL... time for my two cents....

having owned the 06 5AT TL with ALLL the mods possible (minus the supercharger). I have gained quite feel for Blackura before she died....only did 227whp with all the mods, but she ran lean....

having owned an 08 TL-S for 2 weeks, i say there is a big difference in everything


HA. i just dropped the BOMB lol i couldnt keep my mouth shut any longer lol

BEAR-AvHistory

I think we all agree on this. you said "probably" on the MT .vs MT, I said "a good case can be made of the 07 MT".

I have yet to see anything that says an 07 TL-S 5AT will out perform a 07 TL-S 6spd or a 06 TL 6spd. The constant theme is the TL-S 5AT faster because has a solid front stabilizer bar, a $180 part.

As for magazine tests all the major ones are with one tenth of a second of each other in time, but the same 99mph speed. with the 07 TL-S 6MT having a quicker time in the quarter then the 06 TL 6spd.

BTW the 99mph speed seems very good if you run the math on expected HP based on trap speed & weight.

If you believe that the 07 TL-S 5AT is only one tenth slower then the 07 TL-S 6spd, so be it, but that would make it the best performing stock AT available in the industry. Given Hondas problems with AT's I don't believe that to be the case.

Hapa DC5

After taking out an '07 TL-S 6MT for a spin last night I can say it is a pretty substantial difference in performance as compared to my '06 5AT.

When I was in the market for a TL about a year ago I test drove an '06 6MT and did not like the clutch engagement (felt too abrupt and different from any other Honda manual that I have driven). That was probably the only reason I chose not to go with the manual. I ended up purchasing an automatic already knowing the history of the 2nd gen TLs. Knock on wood, I have not had any issues with my trans although it only has 18k on it.

I wanted to drive a TL-S because I heard Honda tweaked the clutch engagement to similar to their other models offered in stick.

The clutch did feel more in tune, I did not get that jerkiness that occurred when I drove the '06. It was A LOT smoother IMO. The car pulls a lot harder than mine, it felt more responsive with a bit heavier steering to give it a sportier feel. The ride felt firm, but not harsh while my car seems a bit bouncy. I like the seat bolsters in fact, I was really digging the car. The TL-S 6MT is hands down faster.

I cannot speak for an auto TL-S, but if this car was available when I was in the market (the Type S' started hitting my dealer about two weeks after I bought DOH!) I would've went with a 6MT.

mamitaxchula

iTrader: (1)

Congrats...now u can get the CRACKURA plates everyone wants...hehe WDP FTW

The topic is actually going back & forth about the differences in the 04-06 6MT & the TL-S 5AT. I don't think anyone can argue the base 5AT TL even compares to the TL-S AT.

BEAR-AvHistory

Two things, agree the clutch engagement is weird & takes a bit of getting used to in gentle/normal driving. However, it does hit hard at max power & is not spongy like the "S" type. Both versions defiantly could use improvement.

I found a laborious process to get smooth shifts when not shifting fast. Put in the clutch, get fully off the gas....the computer will stabilize the RPM for a few seconds before it starts to drop...shift, engage the clutch, get back on the gas.

Shifting the BMW is something you just do, not think about like in the Acura.

As for the heaver, sportier, steering feel in the TL-S my BMW 330Ci 6spd performance pack has much lighter steering then even the TL & it gets around turns pretty well. Guess that is a matter of personal preference but I prefer a lighter touch on the wheel.

If I had my druthers, a TL would have the BMW clutch, throttle & steering settings with the TL's gear box.

FriscoNick

I like my 05 AT TL. If I wanted HP I would have purchased a vett. I do almost all freeway driving, so a MT would get old.

Hapa DC5

The problem is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The TL-S clutch feel has been vastly improved. I did not go balls to the wall with this car (I figured whoever picks this car up wouldn't appreciate it), but it was driven hard enough to know I felt more comfortable driving this car than the previous MT model.

Having drove a few E46 BMWs I know exactly what you mean. It's a very smooth drive train (love the low end grunt and easy wind up of an I6) that's almost telepathic except for the gearbox being its weakest link. Honda gearboxes are phenomenal.

I really liked the TL-S. Hopefully the next version of the TL will not be much heavier, have a ton more power, SH-AWD and a manual trans. If not, I may just be compelled to get a left over '08 MT this time next year. It had that much of a positive impression on me.

mrlunecy

iTrader: (1)

Blackura is turning in her grave.... does she know you were sooo quick to move on to someone else???

lol. congrats on the new wipp, man, glad to see ur Satisfied with the upgrade. Stay off the guard rails, ok?