SodaLuvr

In the past, I’ve never endorsed using Manual Transmission lubes that have a starting viscosity that is significantly less or greater than Honda MTF. However, with many positive reports of excellent performance from the GM Synchromesh FM fluid, which is significantly thinner than Honda MTF (Honda MTF is between 11.5-12 and Synchromesh FM is about 9.3cst), I don’t see a problem using a thinner than recommended fluid if Honda MTF is going to shear down significantly during its service life. Why not instead, start out with a thinner but significantly more shear stable fluid that will offer the same protection yet provide smoother shifting?

For the Synchromesh specification, there are several fluids that will work well. First one would be GM’s own Synchromesh Friction Modified (FM) fluid, which is an obnoxious $12/quart. The second one, is Specialty Formulations Synchroglide, which is an aftermarket replacement fluid for the Synchromesh specification and is an upgrade of the factory fluid. It is priced at about $10.75/quart if you order by the gallon.

Just this past week, Amsoil finally launched their own line of Manual Transmission Lubes. One of the two lubes that they launched, is a lube specially formulated for the Synchromesh specification. It is also an upgraded version of the Synchromesh fluid designed to meet the Synchromesh standard. It is the least expensive of the group priced at about $8/quart shipped, to most parts of the country if you have a preferred membership, though some sellers will often sell at preferred member prices even if you don’t have a membership (NO, I do not sell Amsoil but I do know of a seller who is willing to sell at preferred member prices and PM me if you want the contact information).

I expect Amsoil’s Synchromesh transmission Lube to perform just as well as the other ones at a significantly less expensive price. For those of you who do decide to buy it, do report back to Acurazine and let others know of its performance!

Amsoil Synchromesh 5w-30 MT Lube: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx

Michael

SodaLuvr

Got the exact prices. $5.45/quart, $5.95 flat-rate shipping for three quarts. Tax is dependent on the state in which you live in. For me in California, tax rate is set at 8.75%. So for me, it comes out to $23.73, so $7.91/quart. Not bad at all.

TL needs three quarts I believe.

Michael

dAveSPEC

What is the recommended mileage life of the aftermarket MTFs in relation to the Honda MTF? Any problems changing out to a new MTF after only 5K?

Dave

SodaLuvr

Dave,
I actually suggest changing the factory fill of any transmission within the first 5-10K. According to one of our members on BITOG, who is a chemist for Specialty Formulations, the first 5,000 miles of a transmission’s life is the most wear-prone since the clearances are tight and heat can rapidly buildup, thus causing rapid oxidation of the fluid.

All of the MTF I’ve suggested in my first post will last longer than the Honda MTF, because they are a synthetic and are most resistant to shearing. Once changing the factory fill, I suggest dumping it every 30K unless analysis tells you that you can extend the replacement interval.

Michael

ndx2

i'm not a connoisseur on MTF's, but how does Amsoil MTF compare to Redline MTF? a friend of mine recommended that i use the Redline, as GM Syncromesh is actually harsher on the gears? (i honestly don't remember exactly what he said, though)

mbwmn

i changed over to Redline MTF about 250 miles ago (17k) and there was a clear and noticable difference in shift quality. i recommend that all 6mt change out the stock fluid asap. i will probably be looking @ the GM fluid in the future, but had the Redline in stock.

JetJock

I'm planning to change my MTF soon. I haven't decided what fluid I'm going to use yet, but I'll consider the Amsoil, GM, and RedLine. When I change the fluid, I'll let you guys know how it works out. I've been a little hesitant since any fluid other than Honda MTF will void the warranty, so if I start having problems, I'll have to change the fluid back to Honda MTF before I get any service done. I've heard lots of positive comments about better shifting with all of the fluids mentioned. We shall see.

mg7726

any advice for the 5AT folks??

Adobeman

After changing from non-synth gealbox lube to synth gearbox lube on my last car (Saab) it developed output shaft seal leaks. Many attributed that to the change in lube even though the synth was OEM Saab Synth gearbox lube. Just a drip here and there but messy and anoying nontheless. In the end it never lost enough between changes to matter. The change to synth was worth it overall since shifting was much smoother, especially in cold weather.

Any risk of seal shrink/degridation here ?
Does swithching earlier affect seals differently if at all?

I made the switch on the last car around 30Kmi. That wasn't the first change, just the time I switched lube types. I'd hate to think I'll need those drip pans in my garage again anytime soon.

Thanks,

mbwmn

i'd love to have an Acura service manager or factory rep try to deny a warranty claim on a transmission because i took out the sh8t factory fill @17k miles and put in a real fluid specifically designed for transmissions...
"sorry sir, but we cannot replace your defective transmission. you've obviously spent way too much time and money on it. you should have just left it alone..."

SodaLuvr

Ndx2: Synchromesh fluids being harder on gears? Not that I know of, perform a fluid analysis if you’re concerned.

Mbwmn: Redline is good, but it isn’t that much better than Honda MTF. In addition, it doesn’t last very long as the TAN number rises quite rapidly thus you’ll need to change it quite often, say every 15-20K, I wouldn’t go any longer unless you have the fluid analyzed.

Mg7726: Buy 14 quarts of Amsoil Universal ATF and have a transmission shop “T-Tech” the transmission. No serviceable pan or filter. If you don’t plan on using dealer service (or can remove it before you go there each time), I suggest installing a disposable Magnefine Transmission Filter on the cooler return line and replacing it every 60K or so. This is inexpensive insurance as the filter on the transmission doesn’t filter very well, plus its not serviceable.

Adobeman: I don’t see any seal issues that can arise from the switch to a synthetic lube. Seals/Gaskets have improved. If you’re concerned, I suggest running 1oz/quart of Auto-RX for 1000 miles through the transmission prior to switching if you have over 30K. It will clean out the transmission and will condition the seals. Ask XpDitor, he is currently “Auto-RXing” his Jeep and some of his seals have stopped leaking 500 miles into the cleaning phase.

Mbwmn: Thus, I suggest finding a fluid that is very close in color to Honda MTF or else it’s too obvious.

Michael

cM3go

I should really change my MTF, I'm approaching 20K

PoochaKannInc

I was about to say the same. I'm at 19,200 miles. I need to get off my ass and get it done.

ndx2

meh, we all know we'll see the same statements from you two at 25k!

Road Rage

I think people are ignoring a very important peformance aspect of the tranny fluids - the "feel". This is all about how the characteristic lubricity of the lubricant and the friction modifier performance interact with the gears and synchros.

I expect any quality fluid to perform well technically. What many of us are looking for is the quality of shifting, both cold, but especially when at normal operating temperatures. After many experiments in the S2000's, many of us ended up with GMS FM. My experience in the TL's is that it also performs superbly.

There are many products out there, and I suppose one can constantly be draining, refilling, and evaluating the performance of them. I for one simply do not have the time to do this. "Armchair" evaluations are fun I guess, but for me the proof is in the real-world.

The GMS FM recommendation was based on many, many S2000 field reports in actual applications, plus very favorable service life based on UOA's. This has been confirmed also on a number of TL's I have personally swapped out, and favorable anecdotes from the owners, and others who have tried it.

Personally, I would want to see an equivalent # of analyses for ANY fluid other than Honda Genuine MTF. MTF is a decent product, but has an unacceptably short service life in the S2000's, and its shift action is just OK.

JetJock

OK...I'm sold. It's going to be the GM Synchro FM fluid in my 6mt. I don't want to experiment, and since so many others have had good luck with the "feel" of the transmission with the GM fluid that's what I'm going to use. I plan to get it changed during the next week or so, so I'll report back on this forum my results. RR...thanks for the info.

GoBig

I couldn't be happier since changing to GM Synchromesh. I put it in both the TL and the RSX Type S, and wow what a difference.

mn2trance

How hard is this to change? I've never done this before, that's why I am asking. Is it as simple as draining and filling like you would in an oil change or is it more complicated than that?

JackSprat01

The TL only uses about 2 quarts. Although I have great respect for Amsoil products, I'll happily wait a few years and examine the results from the OTHER guinea pigs that give it a whirl. As for the money savings, since I change out my 6MT every two years, my GMS FM (which is still performing superbly) is costing me about 35 cents per month extra. Most TL owners will probably still put bread on the table.

narikin

Check this thread, with pictures and the relevant pages from the service manual:
https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/valentines-day-haiku-93452/

Also, of course, the RoadRage journal on this topic:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114774

I followed RR's advice and ignored the service manual about removing the battery. A few socket accessories from Sears (6 inch and 10 inch extensions and swivelling connector) made removing the fill plug easy enough, and a long extended funnel made filling a snap. Under the car, removing the plastic cover was an annoyance (esp. since I took off the wrong one first), and then I decided to take the car off the jackstands and lower it to make the transmission pan level to drain better. But it's a one-hour job, as RR stated, and I think I notice smoother shifting with the GM fluid.

JetJock

Today I just changed the fluid with GM-FM. It's everything RR and GoBig said it would be. I noticed the difference when I first pulled out on the street. Every gear just slips into place without any effort...the hot knife thru butter effect. I'd swear I just got a new shifter. Wish I didn't wait so long. Thanks for the advice guys!!!

GoBig

Be prepared, it actually will get better and better over the next week or so.

djskyy

BG & GM Synchromesh(or FM) works for me...I use it in my NSX and all my other previous manual cars...

stevenr

Does any one know the GM part number for teh GMS-FM tranmission fluid? I bought some from my GM dealer and they indicated that there was no "FM" Synchromesh Fluid. THe stuff I bought was about $9.50 per quart.

It seems to shift smoother than the old Honda MTF, which caused the shifter to have a "blaky" feel. I am wondering if I got the right stuff for my 6MT.

I already have it installed.

Road Rage

GMS FM part no. 12377916

Dealer is an idiot - FM is an acronym for Friction Modified - it is not the same as regular GMS, which indeed we found to provide balky shift feel in the S2000 trannies, from which most of our research was done, and recommendations extrapolated to other Honda boxes. Since shifting is literally a hands-on event, done all the time, for ME it is a no-brainer to get the right fluid, and have it installed in your car - but it is your choice.

Lots of quality fluids I and others have recommended are available in the "Marketplace" at www.s2ki.com - that way you can be sure you are getting the real deal from peeps who care, rather than cretins at counters who would not know GMS FM from boar mucous.

JetJock

Stevenr...I had the same experience at the local Chevy Dealership. When I went to the part counter, the guy said he never heard of FM, Friction Modified etc. He said they had Synchromesh Fluid, but not the FM. I made him look thru the parts books until he found the part number: 12377916. After he pulled it from the shelf, he looked at the bottle and said it was the first time he ever noticed GM made another type of Synchromesh Fluid so beware and make sure you get the right stuff.

After a day of driving, it does seem to get better and better. This stuff rocks!!

Things like this are why I love this forum. I would have never knew changing the fluid would make such a difference in my transmission. People like RR, Michael Wan, and GoBig get my thanks.

stevenr

I knew I should have had the Part Number with me. I specifically asked them for the Friction Modified version, which the parts counter guy said, "The only FM stuff we sell is for rear differentials." I asked him if he was sure. He asked me the application and I told him. He indicated that this is the "stuff" that people come in and ask for. They use it for racing applications. He sold me Part Number 12345349.

I took his word for it - I did not want to, but he assured me that this is what I wanted. I should have trusted my instincts, but I REALLY needed to change the fluid. My transmission was having a hard time going in to first and second (felt like a synchronizer problem). This started about 15K miles, but I thought it may be due to cold weather. It persisted through the winter and I finally took the time to change it.

Now, for the not so bad news. The shifting is WAY, WAY better than before. The more I drive it, the better it feels. Does anyone have a feel for how long this fluid should last before I need another change. Hopefully, someone can comment that has used the standard Synchromesh Fluid previously.

As an aside, the local mechanic that I use here (since the wife doesn't have the patience for me to do my own maintenance - she would rather spend the money - surprised??), which he does a very good job, indicated that, if I have a problem with the transmission, to come back to his shop before going to the dealer and get the fluid changed back to the Hond MTF. I did not ask, he volunteered this information.

He has had a specific experience with a customer that the local Acura dealer actually did a fluid analysis after a transmission failure and REFUSED to replace a tranny because the fluid was not a Honda authorized fluid. This seems extreme to me, but I trust him as I have been dealing with this guy for about 15 years and he has not done anything "shady" to me on my in-laws.

Just something else to ponder...

DMZ

DITTO JetJock !!!

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...40&postcount=1

DMZ

The part#'s right on the bottle.
If necessary, print this picture and take it to the clown behind the parts counter.

SodaLuvr

Why don't you folks just use Amsoil MTF, its easier to obtain plus it is a full synthetic fluid, unlike the Grp III/IV/V blend that GMSFM is.

Not only that, it's much cheaper.

Michael

Parker75

You are so right! After calling several dealers to find that they don't stock GMSFM, special ordering costs ~$12/quart. Amsoil MTF at $80.40 for a pack of 12 quarts is almost half the cost.

The specs even say it is a direct replacement for GMSFM part #s 12345349, 12345577, 12377916 and 1052931. Take a look - https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx

DMZ

That's if you buy 12 quarts at once. Only worth it if you're getting together a group buy and/or you're putting mega-milage on your car and have to change the fluid several times a year. Considering you only need about 2¼ qts and only change the fluid every 15-30,000 miles, $12/qt is not going to help prevent you from putting food on the table. Think of how much you spend already for gas alone.


My 2¢

Adobeman

Really, I'm not trying to stir things up but..

I have some concerns about using a non-Honda MTF while within warrantee. Basically, if I should be unlucky enough to suffer gearbox issues within the warrantee period I'd like to be "pure", so to speak, from the lube point of view. Call me a worry wort, whatever. I understand the benefits of the GMSFM from all the posts but I'm just not ready "dive in". Draining and refilling the gearbox is well within my abilities so:

If I was to just regularly change out fluid with Honda MTF how often would you do it?

I'm guessing that even using fresh Honda MTF on a regular basis is better than doing nothing if I don't want to use non-Honda lube. Sorry if I mix things up but I haven't seen this particular question.

Also if anyone can quickly explain what "shearing down" means I'd appreciate it. I see references to Honda MTF "shearing down" quickly. What is "quickly" in terms of miles/time?

Thanks,

SodaLuvr

OK:

3 quarts of Amsoil MTF is about $16-$17 with preferred membership. Shipping is $6. Tax is about 6%-8% depending on your location.

If I did my math right, 3 quarts of Amsoil MTF shipped to Sacramento is about $25.

Parker75, a 12 quarts of that stuff should be between $65-$70. Shipping for 12 quarts is $8.25, BTW.


Adobeman, shear=thin out. Thats the easy way of putting it. Sure, Honda MTF changed about every 20K would be good if you're concerned about warranty. But honestly, how would they be able to tell. GMSFM and Amsoil MTF are both amber, correct?

Michael

Adobeman

Thanks Michael.
I didn't know the colors of any of them honestly. Just figured the look and/or smell would be distinctly different.