Manual vs. Auto
#81
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Originally Posted by Manual Transmission
You don't need bolt ons on the Regular 6MT to edge out the '08 TL Type-S AUTO. The stock factory regular 6MT will beat the TYPE-S 5AT in the acceleration.
The Regular 6MT is capable of reaching 0-60 in 5.7 sec. The Type-S 5AT runs around 5.9 sec. The regular 6MT is almost dead even with the Type-S 6MT in the quarter mile, in the area of 14.1~ 14.2 sec @ 99 ~ 101 mph. Both cars have about the same number. I have never seen in my life a stock TL TYPE-S 5AT getting 14.1 sec @ 100 mph. That is impossible unless you take the car in the down hill. There is just no way, unless you add bolt-on's on the Type-S 5AT to match the regular 6MT...
.
The Regular 6MT is capable of reaching 0-60 in 5.7 sec. The Type-S 5AT runs around 5.9 sec. The regular 6MT is almost dead even with the Type-S 6MT in the quarter mile, in the area of 14.1~ 14.2 sec @ 99 ~ 101 mph. Both cars have about the same number. I have never seen in my life a stock TL TYPE-S 5AT getting 14.1 sec @ 100 mph. That is impossible unless you take the car in the down hill. There is just no way, unless you add bolt-on's on the Type-S 5AT to match the regular 6MT...
.
#82
Registered Member
In May '04, Car and Driver managed a 0-60 run in 5.6 seconds and a quarter mile at 14.3 seconds at 99 MPH with an A-Spec 6MT. This remains the best times I have seen reported for a non-Type S 3G TL.
#83
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Originally Posted by darksom1
...throw some curves in that A-B and there is no comparison! Using your thumbs (paddles) or Triptronic (sp?) vs clutching and shifting is NO COMPARISON when it comes to SPIRITED driving and you guys know that!
Sorry...totally disagree there. That was true 10 - 15 years ago, but not today. Why do F1 cars use paddle shifting with an electronically controlled transmission? Because it shifts faster than any human possibly can! Ferrari, Porsche and other high performance marques use automatics...yes, some use vastly different technology (i.e. DSG) but operationally, they are still an auto....no manual clutch operation.
The purists argue the contrary but again, an electronically operated performance oriented transmission will always shift quicker than you, I or Michael Schumacher. I own and love my 6MT...but to hack on the auto Type S because it's slower by a couple of tenths....please.
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Originally Posted by Ramrodthrusterpuppy
The purists argue the contrary but again, an electronically operated performance oriented transmission will always shift quicker than you, I or. I own and love my 6MT...but to hack on the auto Type S because it's slower by a couple of tenths....please.
A few 10's of a second is a about 1 1/2 at car lengths 0-60 & 3 car lengths at the end of the quarter mile
#85
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Sorry but Michael Schumacher racing paddle shifters are connected to SMG's (Sequential Mechanical Transmissions) generally with twin plate clutches not automatics transmissions with torque converters & planetary gears engaged by hydraulic pressure.
A few 10's of a second is a about 1 1/2 at car lengths 0-60 & 3 car lengths at the end of the quarter mile
A few 10's of a second is a about 1 1/2 at car lengths 0-60 & 3 car lengths at the end of the quarter mile
Understood, but not my point. SMGs, DSGs and autos operate the same way from a driver input perspective....no manual clutch operation.
Additionally, contrary to what we may want to think...TLs are not track cars. And in 99% of driving for 99% of us, 2/10s of a second doesn't mean that much.
#86
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
^ See that's just it...you have to get TECHNICAL to describe why they belong in the same sentence. While I am talking about the fun of driving one versus the other, you are talking about what you have to do in each different one to achieve the same goal. If you think that shifting wth your thumbs is better than, not FASTER than, better as in more FUN, than clutching and going thru the range of motion of shifting gears with your right hand, then ok...but I could care less if an auto shifts from 1-2 seconds faster than a manual...the ACT of doing it is not more fun in my opinion.
#87
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Originally Posted by Ramrodthrusterpuppy
Understood, but not my point. SMGs, DSGs and autos operate the same way from a driver input perspective....no manual clutch operation.
Additionally, contrary to what we may want to think...TLs are not track cars. And in 99% of driving for 99% of us, 2/10s of a second doesn't mean that much.
Additionally, contrary to what we may want to think...TLs are not track cars. And in 99% of driving for 99% of us, 2/10s of a second doesn't mean that much.
As for the 2/10's its used every night heading north in Raleigh, NC at the Six Forks Road & I-540 traffic light.
Six Forks goes from 2 lanes in each direction to one lane each way at this traffic light. The right (curb) lane goes away a few hundred yards past the light. Since the traffic backs up 20-30 cars in the left lane wise guys with BMW 330's, TL 6 speeds, EVO's, Merc 550's, Vettes, Mustang GT's etc slip up past the backlog up to the light in the right hand lane.
Of course when the light turns green the good citizens in the left lane, many of whom have the exact same cars, who politely waited their turn through one or two cycles, at the light don't want to let you in when you jump the line. Makes for an interesting 5 seconds or so before dinner.
2/10's of a second can be the difference that lets you move into the left lane with no problem or sitting in the right one getting the finger till all the cars go by.
This is common enough at this light that the cops hide in the gas station where the lanes come together a few time a month to whack the guys who have busted the 55mph (45mph+10) speed limit.
#88
Three Wheelin'
The TL's clutch sucks........I owned a 2004 6speed now i have a 2005 TL AT and althoe i miss it sometimes i love this one many times more then i used to hate the 6speed. The clutch had no feel and u couldnt shift it fast at all .........compared to an audi or bmw its nothing alike so unless im ready to buy an audi im not gonna go with a stick. and by the way i live in NYC area so traffic is another one
#89
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Originally Posted by BukvaMan
The TL's clutch sucks........I owned a 2004 6speed now i have a 2005 TL AT and althoe i miss it sometimes i love this one many times more then i used to hate the 6speed. The clutch had no feel and u couldnt shift it fast at all .........compared to an audi or bmw its nothing alike so unless im ready to buy an audi im not gonna go with a stick. and by the way i live in NYC area so traffic is another one
#90
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
I owned an '05 TL 6MT,
and I now have an '07 TL-S 5AT.
I developed some arthritis in my clutch knee, which was a factor in trading.
Is the 6MT quicker? Not by much. I know I have more HP, but Acura now has a HP "robber" built into the ECU to minimize torque steer in first and second gear in the 6MT
Good: control, LSD.
Bad: resale value in most areas of the country.
No rev limiter on downshift
Third gear sychro problems in many cases.
5AT for me
and I now have an '07 TL-S 5AT.
I developed some arthritis in my clutch knee, which was a factor in trading.
Is the 6MT quicker? Not by much. I know I have more HP, but Acura now has a HP "robber" built into the ECU to minimize torque steer in first and second gear in the 6MT
Good: control, LSD.
Bad: resale value in most areas of the country.
No rev limiter on downshift
Third gear sychro problems in many cases.
5AT for me
No rev limiter on downshifts? Now that's funny.
#91
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Originally Posted by hondafans
Comptech short shifter takes care of that, and if it's still to long a throws get a Team Voodoo countersunk knob.
#92
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Originally Posted by BukvaMan
The TL's clutch sucks........I owned a 2004 6speed now i have a 2005 TL AT and althoe i miss it sometimes i love this one many times more then i used to hate the 6speed. The clutch had no feel and u couldnt shift it fast at all .........compared to an audi or bmw its nothing alike so unless im ready to buy an audi im not gonna go with a stick. and by the way i live in NYC area so traffic is another one
The TL's gearbox has a slightly better feel to it when running through the gears especially going down then the BMW.
The ideal deal would be the BMW clutch & TL gearbox mounting the BMW shifter.
That being said, I drive both (2004 330Ci 6spd - 2006 TL 6spd) on any given day & there is no measurable difference in shifting speed when accelerating hard.
Both launch very quickly & shift fast enough in the lower gears 1/2 2/3 to chirp the tires when you shift.
#94
Originally Posted by 6SpdTerror
6MT FTMFW!! I just ordered my 08 type-s in manual also. Cant wait for that one!
#95
I own an 02' 6MT and love it. I have a very limited history of owning other cars with MT's but I have owned a TSX. The 6MT in this car is often regarded as being one of the best ever. I do have to say that (apart from the times when the temperature is below 40 degrees) the clutch/shift action in the TL is right on par with the TSX. The only downside is that it was very difficult to find a black on black 6MT with Nav (though it was worth the wait!).
#96
Originally Posted by hondafans
No rev limiter on downshifts? Now that's funny.
Why is it funny?
There are reports that come up on this forum about once a month whereas someone has downshifted inadveretently into 2nd, where they thought they were going into fourth, and bent the valves. The ECU does not limit the revs on a downshift, just an upshift.
It wasn't my own experience, but it is factual.
This creates a risk that can lower resale value that I don't believe Acura will keep around much longer. After all, the trend is to protect us from ourselves
#97
I think the simple truth lies in the fact that this debate will wage on forever, even after they make an automatic that can shift faster and better than any human and put it in every car made. The reality is you either want the manual or you don't and you can come up wtih 100 reasons on either side why you would or wouldn't. Each person has to decide what best fits their situation and desires, AT or MT is a decision only the driver themselves can make.
Might I suggest renting one of each to make up your mind before purchase... of course that may be difficult or make too much sense... either way...
Might I suggest renting one of each to make up your mind before purchase... of course that may be difficult or make too much sense... either way...
#98
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Originally Posted by SheSpawn
I think the simple truth lies in the fact that this debate will wage on forever, even after they make an automatic that can shift faster and better than any human and put it in every car made. The reality is you either want the manual or you don't and you can come up wtih 100 reasons on either side why you would or wouldn't. Each person has to decide what best fits their situation and desires, AT or MT is a decision only the driver themselves can make.
Might I suggest renting one of each to make up your mind before purchase... of course that may be difficult or make too much sense... either way...
Might I suggest renting one of each to make up your mind before purchase... of course that may be difficult or make too much sense... either way...
#99
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
Why is it funny?
The engine is mechanically connected to the driving wheels & they will force the engine into over-rev no matter what or the ECU you do.
#100
Originally Posted by Ramrodthrusterpuppy
Sorry...totally disagree there. That was true 10 - 15 years ago, but not today. Why do F1 cars use paddle shifting with an electronically controlled transmission? Because it shifts faster than any human possibly can! Ferrari, Porsche and other high performance marques use automatics...yes, some use vastly different technology (i.e. DSG) but operationally, they are still an auto....no manual clutch operation.
I can't believe you are comparing a Fomula 1 race car tranny to your TYPE-S 5AT. That is the most ridiculous comment I have heard in my 31 years of life. How can you even dare say that. Holly molly..... I bet ya the cost of the pedal shifter on the F1 costs about half the price of your Acura TL TYPE-S! Yes of course the pedal shifter on the TL-S engages quickly WHILE engaging, but there is still huge amount of lag in response time. It's a joke compare to the F1's sequential gear box.
.
#103
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Originally Posted by Manual Transmission
I disagree with your claim even more seriously.
I can't believe you are comparing a Fomula 1 race car tranny to your TYPE-S 5AT. That is the most ridiculous comment I have heard in my 31 years of life. How can you even dare say that. Holly molly..... I bet ya the cost of the pedal shifter on the F1 costs about half the price of your Acura TL TYPE-S! Yes of course the pedal shifter on the TL-S engages quickly WHILE engaging, but there is still huge amount of lag in response time. It's a joke compare to the F1's sequential gear box.
.
I can't believe you are comparing a Fomula 1 race car tranny to your TYPE-S 5AT. That is the most ridiculous comment I have heard in my 31 years of life. How can you even dare say that. Holly molly..... I bet ya the cost of the pedal shifter on the F1 costs about half the price of your Acura TL TYPE-S! Yes of course the pedal shifter on the TL-S engages quickly WHILE engaging, but there is still huge amount of lag in response time. It's a joke compare to the F1's sequential gear box.
.
I also don't have a 5AT, I have a 6MT, but again that just goes to show that you really didn't understand what I had stated.
No matter...to the OP, test drive both and pick what you like best, because ultimately it's your car and you have to live with it. Both the MT and AT Type S are great cars.
#104
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Because you can't possibly eliminate over-rev on a mechanical gear box downshift in any car when the wrong gear is chosen.
The engine is mechanically connected to the driving wheels & they will force the engine into over-rev no matter what or the ECU you do.
The engine is mechanically connected to the driving wheels & they will force the engine into over-rev no matter what or the ECU you do.
Probably not worth the investement for Acura, though, since the MT is less than 5% of TL(S) sales.
#105
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Originally Posted by Ramrodthrusterpuppy
Sorry...totally disagree there. That was true 10 - 15 years ago, but not today. Why do F1 cars use paddle shifting with an electronically controlled transmission? Because it shifts faster than any human possibly can! Ferrari, Porsche and other high performance marques use automatics...yes, some use vastly different technology (i.e. DSG) but operationally, they are still an auto....no manual clutch operation.
The purists argue the contrary but again, an electronically operated performance oriented transmission will always shift quicker than you, I or Michael Schumacher. I own and love my 6MT...but to hack on the auto Type S because it's slower by a couple of tenths....please.
The purists argue the contrary but again, an electronically operated performance oriented transmission will always shift quicker than you, I or Michael Schumacher. I own and love my 6MT...but to hack on the auto Type S because it's slower by a couple of tenths....please.
#106
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
Sure you can. You integrate a lockout to prevent the transmission from being engaged in that lower gear above a certain RPM.
Probably not worth the investement for Acura, though, since the MT is less than 5% of TL(S) sales.
Probably not worth the investement for Acura, though, since the MT is less than 5% of TL(S) sales.
#107
too many hobbies...
I guess the bottom line for the OP is that it is simply a personal decision, and asking us what we think will only make your decision harder, not easier.
My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.
But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...
My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!
Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?
My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.
But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...
My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!
Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?
#108
^
The MT's of the future will be limited to those "purist" sports cars, of which the TL(S) is not. I doubt if the MT in the S2000 will disappear in the not to distant future, but in the TL-S, I wouldn't be surprised to not see an MT option offered on the '09 4G.
The MT's of the future will be limited to those "purist" sports cars, of which the TL(S) is not. I doubt if the MT in the S2000 will disappear in the not to distant future, but in the TL-S, I wouldn't be surprised to not see an MT option offered on the '09 4G.
#110
Registered Member
Originally Posted by pkarandi
I guess the bottom line for the OP is that it is simply a personal decision, and asking us what we think will only make your decision harder, not easier.
My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.
But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...
My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!
Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?
My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.
But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...
My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!
Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?
And my friend, you are certainly not "an old dog refusing to learn a new trick" as there is nothing tricky about driving an automatic. Like me and countless others, you prefer to shift for yourself.
#111
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Originally Posted by S PAW 1
Sure you can. You integrate a lockout to prevent the transmission from being engaged in that lower gear above a certain RPM.
Probably not worth the investement for Acura, though, since the MT is less than 5% of TL(S) sales.
Probably not worth the investement for Acura, though, since the MT is less than 5% of TL(S) sales.
Even the best professionals have blown up their engine with a missed shift
#112
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One big thing I've noticed buying my left several cars with manual transmission is that the resale value sucks when you go to sell it. It hasn't stopped me from buying manual, but it has been tough to sell my last few cars by owner even though they've been low miles and in mint condition. It takes the right buyer than wants a manual car to come along.
#113
Registered Member
Originally Posted by HiTEC
One big thing I've noticed buying my left several cars with manual transmission is that the resale value sucks when you go to sell it. It hasn't stopped me from buying manual, but it has been tough to sell my last few cars by owner even though they've been low miles and in mint condition. It takes the right buyer than wants a manual car to come along.
I bought my manual '04 in July '04. At that time, the dealer (Pohanka) was averaging 27% of their TL inventory in manuals. Over the next year, I tracked this and it remained between 22 and 25%.
So you market, which encompasses geographical and demographic factors, is the sole largest controlling entity when it comes time to let your car go.
#114
Originally Posted by hondafans
They can't even do that in million dollar race cars.
Even the best professionals have blown up their engine with a missed shift
Even the best professionals have blown up their engine with a missed shift
It "locks out" 2nd and 3rd gear when the ECU detects smaller throttle openings/RPM's. It will take you directly from 1st to 4th, whether you want it to or not. It is doubtful that it is a very expensive feature.
#116
AZ Community Team
Originally Posted by pkarandi
I guess the bottom line for the OP is that it is simply a personal decision, and asking us what we think will only make your decision harder, not easier.
My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.
But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...
My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!
Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?
My 2 cents is that 6MT is for those that are truly into having fun and enjoying spirited driving. There is absolutely no comparison to the complete control you have at any given time with a manual transmission.
But whatever - what I think doesn't really matter. To the OP, let us know what you decide! On to my next point...
My brother was saying to me how the standard MT is on its way to becoming obsolete. First the F1 race cars, then Ferraris, now the Lancer Evo is going to have paddle shifters too. Is it just a matter of time before no car will have the standard tranny? We're already seeing how it's simply not cost effective to use manual trannies (in the USA at least) because of economies of scale, which is why we TL owners don't get a price break on our 6MT cars. In fact, with the percentage of 6MT's at like 2% (just a guess), I'm surprised they don't charge more for them!
Anyway, if the true stick-shift manual tranny is becoming obsolete, that does concern me because I just enjoy driving with a clutch too much. Or am I just an old dog refusing to learn a new trick?
For those wondering about the demise of the manual, I think that is overblown. Although Honda did drop the 6MT from the base TL, they offer a 6MT for the Accord V6 coupe. A friend is looking at getting a Pontiac G8 GTP and a 6MT is available for it, and yes it's a 4 door sports sedan. One of bigger detriments to MT is emmisions, it's can be more difficult to get EPA emissions cetification since it's more difficult with a manual (although DBW throttle and ECU do make it happen).
A friend is BMW service tech in the Baltimore area and drives all the latest BMW's. He drives a 2G 735 with a 5MT, even though he has driven the latest SMG's in the latest M3/M5/M6 he still prefers the 6MT in those models over the SMG. BMW marketing also agrees since originally the M5 was not available with a manual, only the SMG. They later brought back a true clutch and MT offering.
So if you think that all sedans are family cars and should only come with AT, great that's your opinion. Alot of other drivers (probably those here with 6MT's) know you can have alot of driving fun with four door sedan with a well balanced suspension, powerful V6, and a MT.
#117
I've had my 6MT since '04 and I love it when I'm in the mood for spirited driving. Sometimes traffic makes me wish I had the automatic but the Brembos, LSD, and suspension keeps me happy with my choice. Get the 6MT...it's pure fun to drive.
#118
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Comparing the automatic transmission in the Acura TL to the "automatic" in an F1 car, DSG, or SMG, is like comparing corn to cheese, sure they are both yellow, but that is where the similarities end. Honestly unless you have the choice at a dual clutch gearbox, get a MT.
#119
Originally Posted by 2000TaffetaTL
Comparing the automatic transmission in the Acura TL to the "automatic" in an F1 car, DSG, or SMG, is like comparing corn to cheese, sure they are both yellow, but that is where the similarities end. Honestly unless you have the choice at a dual clutch gearbox, get a MT.
#120
Registered Member
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Good writeup to a seemingly endless debate. The main point to me (and many others in this thread) is the driving experience and fun of a manual transmission. Heck, I even semi-enjoyed driving a manual transmission on a 24' UHaul moving I reneted in the mid-90's. The bottom line is for many drivers you are in more control of the powertrain with a manual over a automatic or even a SMG-type gearbox.
For those wondering about the demise of the manual, I think that is overblown. Although Honda did drop the 6MT from the base TL, they offer a 6MT for the Accord V6 coupe. A friend is looking at getting a Pontiac G8 GTP and a 6MT is available for it, and yes it's a 4 door sports sedan. One of bigger detriments to MT is emmisions, it's can be more difficult to get EPA emissions cetification since it's more difficult with a manual (although DBW throttle and ECU do make it happen).
A friend is BMW service tech in the Baltimore area and drives all the latest BMW's. He drives a 2G 735 with a 5MT, even though he has driven the latest SMG's in the latest M3/M5/M6 he still prefers the 6MT in those models over the SMG. BMW marketing also agrees since originally the M5 was not available with a manual, only the SMG. They later brought back a true clutch and MT offering.
So if you think that all sedans are family cars and should only come with AT, great that's your opinion. Alot of other drivers (probably those here with 6MT's) know you can have alot of driving fun with four door sedan with a well balanced suspension, powerful V6, and a MT.
For those wondering about the demise of the manual, I think that is overblown. Although Honda did drop the 6MT from the base TL, they offer a 6MT for the Accord V6 coupe. A friend is looking at getting a Pontiac G8 GTP and a 6MT is available for it, and yes it's a 4 door sports sedan. One of bigger detriments to MT is emmisions, it's can be more difficult to get EPA emissions cetification since it's more difficult with a manual (although DBW throttle and ECU do make it happen).
A friend is BMW service tech in the Baltimore area and drives all the latest BMW's. He drives a 2G 735 with a 5MT, even though he has driven the latest SMG's in the latest M3/M5/M6 he still prefers the 6MT in those models over the SMG. BMW marketing also agrees since originally the M5 was not available with a manual, only the SMG. They later brought back a true clutch and MT offering.
So if you think that all sedans are family cars and should only come with AT, great that's your opinion. Alot of other drivers (probably those here with 6MT's) know you can have alot of driving fun with four door sedan with a well balanced suspension, powerful V6, and a MT.
I had heard that the initial of the Pontiac G8 will only be made with an automatic. Has that changed? I sure hope so because that car looks like it could be a winner.