PetesTL

I'm just curious but seeing all these posts about quality control problems like rattles, vibrations, cheap leather, thin glass, flimsy trunk, etc, etc........could it be that since now TL's are made in Ohio, Acura is "cutting corners" to boost their bottom line? (I remember way back when I had a '90 Accord--my last Honda vehicle--it was absolutely flawless with zero problems--and it was made in Japan).

caball88

there was a huge thread about Made in USA vs Japan. i said agreed that the cars made in Japan are better because of better build quality. just the the ones built in USA are better than the ones built in Mexico. just take a look at the previous gen jettas, they are made in mexico.

VTEC=happiness

Clearly it is more expensive to build a vehicle in the USA, but I am not sure that there are a bunch of corners being cut. I think rattles are prevelent in a number of cars, many of which have a final build outside the U.S., I also think that cheap leather is something I would expect to get out of a car costing only $35K and in a Honda vehicle, as for the fimsy trunk, and thin glass, this is the first I have heard of these problems, so I really cannot comment. Basically, I think that some corners may have been cut, but I do not believe that the overall quality of the car is questionable. There are pleanty of cars built here and elsewhere that suffer from build quality issues.

kph

We had a 1983 Accord made in Maryville - their second year of production - and it was just fine. 1989 Accord LXi from Japan and a 2000 Odyssey from Canada. No real problems to note with any of them.

Been driving my TL for a week now. No real rattles. The only issue I have is the 1500RPM/~50MPH vibration. My salesguy said this was an issue being tracked with no fix from Acura "yet" - but keep my ear tuned.

Tristero

How are cheap leather, flimsy trunk, and thin glass related to being made in southern ohio? AS for the cost of building in Ohio, you don't really think that the economics of making a car, which is being sold to the US market, in the US is more expensive do you? Honda is undoubtedly hedging currency and other costs against the higher cost of labor in their global production.

My guess is that if there are systematic problems with the TL, it is not the man/woman on the assembly line, but the engineer and/or manager who are creating the system..... (i.e. bridgestones, poor design of the headliner, cheap paint, vibration at 50 MPH, etc.)

Come on gang. I am sorry to hear that so many folks are apparently dissatisfied with their cars, but given the sales numbers my guess is that the dissatisfied are in the minority.

good luck and may you never get rattles, etc.!

Norse396

I keep hearing about cheap leather, I don't get it, my partners '03 E320 doesn't have better leather and it cost a lot more than the TL.

I think the leather in the TL is just fine, however the guys in Ohio need a lesson or two in the quality control department because they suck.

jdl75

I'll start by saying that I was a process engineer with Honda of America (HAM)for two years in the late 1990's. As a process engineer, you have responsibility for a certain aspect of the car, but you must coordinate with every department and support any quality issues that may pop up. In this way, you get to know the entire production staff, so I feel pretty comfortable making these next statements.

First, it may surprise you to find out that almost all of the production equipment is built in Japan and shipped to the US. The items that are made here are shared across the world, including Japan. Look at where your engine and tranny were made. I don't believe it was Ohio.

Second, the quality standards were set by the Japanesse a long time ago, and they are NOT flexible. Many people blame Honda for bland styling, but there's a reason that you don't see a lot of swoopy sheet metal and 3D sheet metal seams - they're VERY difficult to align and build to Honda's specs.

Third, the work ethic of the associates in the HAM plants is second to none. I've been around the industry a bit, and you will not find a more dedicated, concerned group of people building your car.

There are quality control procedures that I can not detail here, but in talking with my buddy at Toyota Manufacturing, Honda is every bit as careful as Lexus. You can flame me all you want, but go drive an MDX and an RX330 back to back (I drove the MDX to the Lexus dealer). The RX didn't ride as well, and has MUCH more wind and road noise.

You do get what you pay for. For $35,000 you are within reason to expect an excellent car. You can't compare it to a $45,000 vehicle and expect to come out ahead each time. Sound deading, trick suspension designs, wood trim and more supple leather all cost a lot more money. Don't forget, Honda is in business to make money, just like all of our companies. An item that adds $10 to the price of the car, times 500,000 cars over the run of the line, is $5 million dollars of profit.

You may argue that no one would argue a $10 price increase in their vehicle, but it's not that easy. A nickel here, a dollar there, marked up through the supply chain, adds up quickly. Marketing research sets the price of the vehicle, it's not just a matter of cost-plus economics.


I think that Acura provides the best value in the industry today. May the flames begin.

jdl75

You are absolutely correct.

Let's see -
Flimsy glass? That's from PPG if I'm not mistaken.

Flimsy trunk? That's a design feature - it's a cruple zone for a rear impact. The geomtry of the car dictates these things.

Cheap leather? That's a product of Setex or Lear Corp. Honda just buys the seats.

You get a beer on me for that one. Mind you, these are Japaneese engineers making most of these design decisions. There is an engineering group in America (EGA), but they cross-polinate with Japan extensively, and when I left HAM, they weren't a large enough group to design the car start to finish.

Hybrid

In my opinion, there's one BIG difference: People didn't visit forums like this one in 1990 to see the lists of problems other people experience. I've seen lots of cases here and on other forums where people say things like "thanks, I wouldn't have even known my car had this problem if I didn't read your post." So a "perfect" car just became unperfect because of the Internet. That's not all that's going on, of course. I think people are getting much pickier, with higher expectations, all the time. Cars are getting better in a lot of ways - smoother, quieter, less required maintenance, etc. There's also the fact that some cars, by chance, will be better than others. Some people with TL's say they have no issues or problems. Other people have lists that won't quit.

If that 1990 Accord were a new car today, I think people would find faults with it that weren't considered faults in 1990. As potential examples: Too much road noise. What's that wind whistle coming from the mirrors? Why are the doors so tinny sounding when closed? There's no headroom or legroom. The tires have almost no grip! What's with the long braking distances? The body gaps are large (by today's standards).

(There's no doubt the 1990 Accord was a well assembled, quality vehicle. But it had problems too. Going back and looking at an early 90's Consumer Reports reliability survey, it wouldn't be perfect).

From all objective data I've seen, the new cars these days have far fewer problems reported by owners than just a few years ago, and far fewer problems than 1990. I don't see the TL as being an exception.

Every forum I have ever visited has people complaining about something. I wonder about what the people do who say "I've read posts on your TL forum for several weeks and have decided to not buy a TL because of all the reported problems." What do they buy where the owners experience no problems? Do these people read forums for cars they think are better? For example, the BMW 3-series owners complain about various issues 5 years into the production run of the current model. Is the G35 "perfect"? Has anyone found a forum where there are no complaints?

Hybrid

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46/

This is a 3-series (latest generation) forum, for comparison on complaining about problems, lemons, etc.

Norse396

jdl75,

In my humble opinion almost every TL must have most of the rattle issues my car had. Every one of them I test drove had the same ones and each one of them had the flat spotting.

How is it the car makes it to the dealer with such obvious issues? The flat spotting is so obvious it seems as if it was blatently left alone.

I find the quality control in this years TL to be substandard from what I'm used to from Honda.

Maybe I'm very jaded because mine has been in for service 5 times now, could be, but the dealer I bought from has more new TL's in for service than they have had for previous years during the same time frame. Heck, there was a line of them when I brougt mine in this week, this tells me I'm not nearly alone in having these issues.

jdl75

I own a 1999 BMW 328i. I've also owned a 2000 TL and have a 2001 Accord EX-V6 for my wife.

Ride-wise, the BMW gets a slight nod, but that's comparing it with 18's on the bimmer. The stock 16's make it a toss-up.

Quality-wise, the bimmer isn't half the car that the TL or Accord are. Mine has been in to the dealer nine out of the last 12 mos. Lets say I'm thankful for the extended warranty.

1SICKLEX

So Lexus has won 14 years worth of quality awards and class leading quality from multiple sources for no reason. Bullshit.

A Lexus has the absolute tightest tolerances for failure in the industry. That is one of their main selling points. Their quality. Their plants are regarded as the best automobile plants in the world.

The TL is built as well as an Accord but since people are paying MORE for the car, they have HIGHER expectations for quality. With it's rattles, cheap leather, chipping paint, HIDs stolen and TRANNY FAILURES etc etc, well the proof is in the pudding.
Now the Acura Legend. That is a solid car. Legends with 150,000 miles feel as solid as a new TL out of Ohio. People feel after the Legend, Acura started chasing VALUE instead of trying to compete with the best.

Norse396

1SICKLEX,

I agree with everything you said except for cheap leather, I think it's fine. Maybe I'm leather stupid, I dunno, but it's at least as good as many more expensive cars I've seen (I reserve the right to change my mind if my leather starts going to pot)...

1SICKLEX

Norse, let me clarify. The new TL has much better leather, IMO than the 2nd gen TL-P/TL-S. I think it's fine.

dmluds

I would much prefer to see "Made in Japan". Anyone know if the manufacturing plant is run with unions in the US? I haven't been impressed with workers who are members of unions from personal experience. They never seem to take any pride in their work, but I am generalizing based on my personal experience with union members.

Xpditor

I believe my Japanese built cars were of better quality than those made in America. And if you assume it's more expensive to build them here, you would be wrong. Except for shipping, costs are higher in Japan. The average wage of an autoworker in Japan is higher than that in the US and worth every dime in my opinion. They have an excellent work ethic and still believe in quality. It seems American industry, as influenced by unions, is: get the most money for the least work.

65% of the new TL is made in America/Canada. 15% is made in Japan. Anyone know where the other 20% is made? China? Korea?

Norse396

I know people who work at the Belvidere (sp?) plant that builds Neon's, I know after talking to them there isn't any way I'd buy a Chrysler.

Flanagan

There is so much bureaucracy in modern large auto makers that the blame for small problems may lie on any of hundreds of people. However, most of these problems are due to simple math:

The TL is made of thousands of pieces. Of those pieces, some are guaranteed not to be 100% perfect. Say a clip in the headliner didn't come out of the stamper properly. Maybe it didn't bend all the way. Suddenly, one single piece out of thousands is unable to perform its job to the fullest, and the result is a headliner that doesn't hold on completely. Another example: an engineer designs a wind deflector within the thousandth of an inch, but the robot that makes the sunroof assembly is only accurate to the 5 thousandths of an inch. One one particular assembly, it is 4 thousands off the engineer's specification. The result is the piece vibrates against the metal roof of the car. Just because of 4 thousandths of an inch.

To think that a car should come from the factory in 100% mechanical shape is expected. To think that a car should come from the factory with 100% zero problems is naive. Even $300k handmade Pagani Zondas have problems. It's just a matter of mathematics. That's why lemon laws exist.

Sean

PS The tires are a different story altogether, someone is to blame for that one.

UminChu

Just shooting from the hip here, but maybe they weren't all lined up for service. Continental provides complimentary carwashes to their own buyers. The weather has been exceptionally nice lately, maybe some of them just stopped in for a wash and a vac. Who knows?

I'm glad you're beginning to make some progress on your build quality issues (you'll propably be in a heck of a lot better mood at D&B's now, lol). Stay and firm but remain calm on the tire issue. I know it sucks that you have to jump through the hoop for it, but hang in there and keep your cool. That call doesn't mean anything. Keep your own documentation; they'll make it right eventually.

caball88

i agree 100%, unions really do nothing for quality and progress. they promote more money for less work. it's legalized labor gangs that force consumers to eat up the extra cost. in a competitive capitalistic society we do not need unions. government intervenes when large corporations threaten to become monopolies, in order to promote comptetiveness. but this does not affect unions even though they have become somewhat of a labor monopoly. Japan does not have any of these unions and workers are paid well. its a clear sign that unions are not necessary to say the least. for one of the most modern nations in the world we still stick to these old outdated ideas. i know its all politics and these union leaders hold alot of lobbying power. i just really hope things change in the future.

Norse396

Excellent point and possible for some of them, it was a mechanic who told me they were in for service, but it is possible some weren't. I hadn't thought of the car wash, mine gets washed every week it's in the shop, I never need to worry about that.

I agree, I'm very respectful to the people at the dealer, they are trying very hard to fix it, however tonight I found that I still can't link my remotes and felt is still hanging from the 3rd brake light. So the saga continues but the ride is so quiet the rest is minor..

KeithL

I agree. My back deck rattle was driving me nuts, I had a CD that I made that easily demonstrated it, the service tech put it in 4 different TLs and every one did it! I think many people are oblivious to some sounds or just come to accept them. The Headliner and back deack and some dash and door rattles I too believe are virtually in every car as it is a design flaw in how some of these components are fit in the car. Some of these are dumb over sights in design that for a Hyundai I would expect, for Honda it is very dissapointing, and for and "Acura" it is just sad!

KeithL

I think the leather is sub-par fo rthis class. My old 2000 I-30 had leatehr that was about the same as this and Infiniti heard the complaints and my 2002 I35 had much better leather, neither is as good as Lexus or even some Toyota leather. Mine is 5 weeks old (and 5 days it was in delaer for repairs) and the leather is puckering and looking more worn that my I-35 did after a year and at this rate in another 2-3 months I am sure it will look worse than my I-35 did when I traded it in after 28 months!

majwax

I took a tour of the Marysville plant several years ago while interviewing for Honda (I didn't get an offer), and I have to say, I was quite impressed. That place was spic 'n' span! I think the workers were interested, but the process for putting together a car was mostly automated anyway. One thing I remember them bragging about was the fact that no human has to touch the car during assembly. Even the tires come into the plant on a conveyor and are never touched. It was quite amazing.

I'm happy with my new TL. I sold a 99 Saab 9-5 to a friend at work. That car was very solid. It will be tough to top the ride control I had with the Saab, but the TL is overall more fun (especially since I went with the 6-speed). Each car has its strengths and weaknesses. There is no perfect car. Don't fret about it. You can't control it. At least there's a decent warranty with the car. Enjoy the ride!

Z Factor

No flames, and we agree about the best value.

However, I have owned/leased Acura's for over a decade now, and I have seen the QC go down hill after the cars started to be assembled here, rather than Japan. I've taken some heat from my Corvette buddies for having such a "un-American" point of view, but it is based on personal observation.

I'm as red, white, and blue as anyone, but given a choice between a TL assembled in America, or one assembled in Japan, I'd take the one from Japan.

I do keep my hopes up that American QC standards will continue to rise, and we can beat the Japanese at their own game.

PS

Unions were needed back during the industrial revolution since employers had virtually no safety standards, treated workers like slaves, and held all the cards. However, as in with life in general, the pendulum has swung to the other side, and unions have outlived their usefulness in many regards. We as a nation must realize that unions can cause more harm than good in some cases, like in our education system, and must bring some of their practices to a halt.

Norse396

Agreed, had I bought a Hyundai I would still want it fixed but I wouldn't be shocked that the problems showed up. I went to a different Acura dealer last week and test drove 3 TL's that had more than 500 miles on them and each one of them had at least 3 of the rattles mine had, including the right rear passenger door, 1 of them was much worse than mine, I asked the salesman if he heard the noise and he just said "what noise", I guess ignorance truely is bliss..... sad indeed..

UminChu

Maybe he was ignorant, maybe he was selectively deaf.

Tristero

I find all the union bashing, made in America, crap to be ridiculous, especially given the global complexity of designing, making, and selling cars--as others have pointed out. Even more interesting, Consumer Reports recently reported that American cars now have better reliability, on average, than European cars. And, do a quick web search, all the vaunted Japanese automakers with great reliability--Toyota, Nissan, and Honda do a huge amount of their production in the United States.

Anyone singling out unions or line workers making products on automated assembly lines--whether they cloak themselves in flag or not (a favorite move of folks who don't want to discuss the real issues--i.e. I'm a real American)--has a larger political axe to grind.

Z-Faxtor says unions have "caused more harm than good" in "our education system." Not only is that statement wrong at face value, but Z-Factor clearly hasn't a clue about the high quality of education in the United States. The VAST majority of K-12 school districts do a great job. The only places that schools are failing are in the poorest urban and rural communities. These schoolars failing for a variety of reasons, including (in no particular order): poverty, underfunding, poverty, social dislocation, family dislocation, poverty, and poverty. In other words, a HOST OF OTHER COMMUNITY ISSUES lead to school failure, not unionized teachers.

Believe what you like about the folks that teacher your/our children, but they are underpaid, overworked, and underappreciated. Generally speaking, they join unions precisely because they don't want administrators--i.e. folks not in the classroom--to tell them how to teach or to arbitrarily determine wages.

Of course unions are not perfect, but they certainly are NOT or should NOT be the focus of dissatisfaction that we feel with cars, schools, or any other product or aspect of American life.

*****
And, by the way, I work closely with many K-12 teachers in inner-city and rural schools to help them be more effective teachers. There is not a doubt in my mind that we could hire better teachers for these schools, but by the same token their are remarkable teachers as well. Low quality teaching, though, is directly related to the economics of inner-city teaching and job markets: low pay, horrendous working conditions, and lack of administrative support are all disincentives for people to go to work in urban/rural districts. You do the math. If we paid teachers $75K starting salaries, with opportunity for long-term $$ rewards, then we could expect better teaching (and, my guess, you would see the end of teaching unions....)

Thomwarn

I thought most of the G35 is also made in USA??

dsc888

They are pretty much all made in Japan...if I am not mistaken. My girlfriend has a 2003 G35 sedan and that's what it says on the car. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

dsc888

jdl75

FYI, as it has been brought up, the Honda plants are not unionized.

Z Factor

Sorry to correct you, but you are in fact wrong in relation to America's public education system compared to European/Japanese schools.

While our children perform better at younger ages, by middle school the aforementioned have not only caught up, but excel past us at an alarming rate. By the time kids are graduating HS, our public school kids are far behind their counterparts in most subjects. I don't have the statistics handy, but I'm sure you can look them up if you are so inclined. While it isn't all the NEA's fault, they do bear a large burden of responsibility by hiring and shielding incompetent teachers, as just one example.

I think we can agree however on the low wages, and poor conditions our teachers are subject to. I personally think every parent who is happy with their child's teacher should give them a monetary bonus of substance at the end of the year. Lets face it, they are responsible for caring for your kids and educating them for a good portion of their lives. Besides their health, what is more important to you than your kids education?