Made in Japan vs. USA
05-17-2005, 03:52 PM
#123
Again, If I was producing a luxery product in an american company, I would try my hardest to make sure it came out right. However, if I somehow ended up in a kia factory I would finger tighten everything.
05-17-2005, 03:53 PM
#124
Asian07RL
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I blame the Quality Control Dept. at Ohio plant.
My car had a big gap (~1/4") on rear driver side door and 1/16"small gap between front and rear passenger side. Last week I took the car back to the dealer for re alignment under warranty. The problem was fixed and I am happy with the results. The service manager agreed with me that this car should not be shipped out at the factoty.
To make the long story short, If I was QC inspector at Ohio plant, I never ever pass this car. Where is the Go and No Go gage to check for the gap?
My car had a big gap (~1/4") on rear driver side door and 1/16"small gap between front and rear passenger side. Last week I took the car back to the dealer for re alignment under warranty. The problem was fixed and I am happy with the results. The service manager agreed with me that this car should not be shipped out at the factoty.
To make the long story short, If I was QC inspector at Ohio plant, I never ever pass this car. Where is the Go and No Go gage to check for the gap?
05-17-2005, 04:19 PM
#125
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by AsianTL
I blame the Quality Control Dept. at Ohio plant.
My car had a big gap (~1/4") on rear driver side door and 1/16"small gap between front and rear passenger side. Last week I took the car back to the dealer for re alignment under warranty. The problem was fixed and I am happy with the results. The service manager agreed with me that this car should not be shipped out at the factoty.
To make the long story short, If I was QC inspector at Ohio plant, I never ever pass this car. Where is the Go and No Go gage to check for the gap?
My car had a big gap (~1/4") on rear driver side door and 1/16"small gap between front and rear passenger side. Last week I took the car back to the dealer for re alignment under warranty. The problem was fixed and I am happy with the results. The service manager agreed with me that this car should not be shipped out at the factoty.
To make the long story short, If I was QC inspector at Ohio plant, I never ever pass this car. Where is the Go and No Go gage to check for the gap?
I complained about the very unsightly door and fender gaps of the TL after a few weeks of using it. I guess I just got used to comparing it too much with the TSX, I was wondering why the door gaps are too large (it's very noticeable in a silver car as opposed to black or blue because of the lines). The dealer "re-adjusted" the fenders and doors to a certain extent until the service supervisor just came to me and said, that I am going to have to live with this because of the inherent build of the car (who actually also said that the TSX was a much better built car than the TL) and it cannot be remedied any further. He did compare it to a similar year Accord (Ohio made) that has the same amount of unsightly fender gaps. I told him that I did not buy a Buick but an Acura. And his reply was that indeed, the TL was a North American designed car and yes perhaps with the deficiencies that the typical NA car buyer "should" be used to. Now I would not go and compare the TL with a Buick of any type since the cars are night and day and the service I get from my dealer is far superior than what any Buick dealer can offer.
But then again, maybe I SHOULD fall into a certain category and just live with the deficiencies of a big ticket purchase....
Engineering defect or not, IMO it is how a car company backs its products up and takes care of its customer base.
05-17-2005, 06:53 PM
#126
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by dsc888
I also agree here. Americans are much more innovative in my opinion. And once an idea gets out, the Japanese will take it and improve upon it. The Japanese are more focused on the manufacturing aspect of the product than they are on the innovative. I have a Japanese friend who once said that there is a push in Japan now to get people to think "outside of the box" and to come out with fresher ideas.
dsc888
dsc888
Hopefully we're not all starting to sound like anti-American's here...
Definitely not our attempt. I myself think the many different manufacturing/innovative countries all compliment each other in one way or another.. And we the consumers definitely benefit from it.Cheers
05-17-2005, 07:14 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by KJSmitty
I guess I have a hard time grasping this. No doubt in my mind that America/American's is/are extremely innovative and so far out front of many countries its blatantly obvious. I guess in my mind I see Japan as near equal in regards to innovation as the US. Kind of a "they both have their strong points etc" idea. I feel if it hadn't been for Japan etc., small cars and a vast amount of electronics would possibly never have existed or have taken 10's of years longer to hit the market..
Hopefully we're not all starting to sound like anti-American's here... Definitely not our attempt. I myself think the many different manufacturing/innovative countries all compliment each other in one way or another.. And we the consumers definitely benefit from it.
Cheers
Hopefully we're not all starting to sound like anti-American's here...
Definitely not our attempt. I myself think the many different manufacturing/innovative countries all compliment each other in one way or another.. And we the consumers definitely benefit from it.Cheers
05-17-2005, 08:03 PM
#128
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
fUAW is what's wrong with American cars, or cars made in the USA.
As for the 5-speed transmission from Japan, that was an engineering defect, not a workmanship defect. Sure, it's still Honda's fault, but as long as we're on the topic of workmanship level and quality, I just want to say that it's not the workers' fault that the transmission has a major defect.
And as for the mentality of "getting the job done", well, that's only the tip of the iceberg. The pride and high quality workmanship root all the way back to the mentality of Asians in general that puts "us" in front of "me". Western countries have an extremely high sense of individualism, whereas Asians think in terms of "groups" and how everything "I" do reflects upon "us". Thus, the mentality of working hard and getting everything done right arose from that concept.
In other words, let's compare a typical Japanese worker and a typical UAW American worker. A Japanese worker would try his best at what he does in the production line, because what he does reflects upon the car, the company, and the country; when the car he built is exported to another country, it'll be a representation of Japan, its people, and its quality. What do you think when you see Sony, Lexus, Acura, etc? High quality, more dependeable and durable.
A UAW worker, on the other hand based on the sense of individualism, is more "me, me, me". They want more money for less work, because all their way of thinking lies based on hedonism. Yes, it's human nature, but they are the definition of extreme hedonism. And when they don't get what they want, they won't hesitate to go on a strike, or sabotage the products and/or production lines. This guy my father knows, he bought a brand new Cadillac DeVille, and from day one, there was a rotting smell inside the car. After months and numerous trips to the dealership, they finally started taking off all the interior panels, and found a rotten burger inside one of the door panels.
This is UNTHINKABLE in a Japanese factory, where they have a high sense of pride for what they do. Since they put "we" in front of "I", they do not bitch and moan as much as UAW workers when they don't get what they want. They think in terms of "Is this good for my company, and thus, my country?" A UAW workers would think more in terms of "Is this good for ME? I want more money for what I do."
GM has to set aside FORTY BILLION dollars in pension funds for their UAW workers. Japanese companies do not have to. Why? Because they don't hire bitch-ass UAW workers. If GM were to expell UAW from their operations, that's forty billion dollars that they can spend in R&D, renovating factories, etc.
The quality of workmanship between my dad's 55k-dollar XL Denali and my 32k-dollar TL-S is unparalleled. And also, the rising costs of labor management translates directly to the final cost of each vehicle. That's why GM sells less of a car for the same money as their competitors. And because it just doesn't make sense, that's why they offer big incentives, which eats into their profits, which leads to losses, which leads to a higher cost on their vehicles, which leads to bigger incentives, etc, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the UAW is right in the middle of it.
I'm usually a complimenting person, and even if I didn't agree with something, I would let it slide. However, I have such big hatred toward the UAW, that when arguing with a UAW worker, I will not hesitate to spit on his/her face (figuratively speaking, of course).
Yeah, yeah, Japanese car companies have unions, too. But they are nowhere near as bad as the UAW. CAW is just as bad -- when the F-body production was killed, they made GM sign a contract stating that they can't use the names Camaro and Firebird unless the cars wearing those badges are built in one of their factories; thus the end of two legendary nameplates in American history, unless GM produces the cars in their factory. You guys may be indifferent to this, but as a big fan of the Camaro and the Firebird, this shady tactic infuriates me.
Fuck unions; they are the source of most of the problems in the automotive industry.
As for the 5-speed transmission from Japan, that was an engineering defect, not a workmanship defect. Sure, it's still Honda's fault, but as long as we're on the topic of workmanship level and quality, I just want to say that it's not the workers' fault that the transmission has a major defect.
And as for the mentality of "getting the job done", well, that's only the tip of the iceberg. The pride and high quality workmanship root all the way back to the mentality of Asians in general that puts "us" in front of "me". Western countries have an extremely high sense of individualism, whereas Asians think in terms of "groups" and how everything "I" do reflects upon "us". Thus, the mentality of working hard and getting everything done right arose from that concept.
In other words, let's compare a typical Japanese worker and a typical UAW American worker. A Japanese worker would try his best at what he does in the production line, because what he does reflects upon the car, the company, and the country; when the car he built is exported to another country, it'll be a representation of Japan, its people, and its quality. What do you think when you see Sony, Lexus, Acura, etc? High quality, more dependeable and durable.
A UAW worker, on the other hand based on the sense of individualism, is more "me, me, me". They want more money for less work, because all their way of thinking lies based on hedonism. Yes, it's human nature, but they are the definition of extreme hedonism. And when they don't get what they want, they won't hesitate to go on a strike, or sabotage the products and/or production lines. This guy my father knows, he bought a brand new Cadillac DeVille, and from day one, there was a rotting smell inside the car. After months and numerous trips to the dealership, they finally started taking off all the interior panels, and found a rotten burger inside one of the door panels.
This is UNTHINKABLE in a Japanese factory, where they have a high sense of pride for what they do. Since they put "we" in front of "I", they do not bitch and moan as much as UAW workers when they don't get what they want. They think in terms of "Is this good for my company, and thus, my country?" A UAW workers would think more in terms of "Is this good for ME? I want more money for what I do."
GM has to set aside FORTY BILLION dollars in pension funds for their UAW workers. Japanese companies do not have to. Why? Because they don't hire bitch-ass UAW workers. If GM were to expell UAW from their operations, that's forty billion dollars that they can spend in R&D, renovating factories, etc.
The quality of workmanship between my dad's 55k-dollar XL Denali and my 32k-dollar TL-S is unparalleled. And also, the rising costs of labor management translates directly to the final cost of each vehicle. That's why GM sells less of a car for the same money as their competitors. And because it just doesn't make sense, that's why they offer big incentives, which eats into their profits, which leads to losses, which leads to a higher cost on their vehicles, which leads to bigger incentives, etc, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the UAW is right in the middle of it.
I'm usually a complimenting person, and even if I didn't agree with something, I would let it slide. However, I have such big hatred toward the UAW, that when arguing with a UAW worker, I will not hesitate to spit on his/her face (figuratively speaking, of course).
Yeah, yeah, Japanese car companies have unions, too. But they are nowhere near as bad as the UAW. CAW is just as bad -- when the F-body production was killed, they made GM sign a contract stating that they can't use the names Camaro and Firebird unless the cars wearing those badges are built in one of their factories; thus the end of two legendary nameplates in American history, unless GM produces the cars in their factory. You guys may be indifferent to this, but as a big fan of the Camaro and the Firebird, this shady tactic infuriates me.
Fuck unions; they are the source of most of the problems in the automotive industry.
The health care national crisis and underfunded pension plans are not unique to the auto industry or union pressure. The problems of America have to do with the mature established system and all of the blame can't be directed to one entity.
GM is stupid for getting put in the position they are in as far as union contracts. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes and BMW have managed to avoid some of the terms. But I stand by my comments that our American quality is very close to equal to that of other markets.
At any rate, I'm not willing to change my American attitude or move to another nation and become a virtual slave to the organization or group think. The quality of my TL is just fine.
05-17-2005, 10:39 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
fUAW is what's wrong with American cars, or cars made in the USA.
As for the 5-speed transmission from Japan, that was an engineering defect, not a workmanship defect. Sure, it's still Honda's fault, but as long as we're on the topic of workmanship level and quality, I just want to say that it's not the workers' fault that the transmission has a major defect.
And as for the mentality of "getting the job done", well, that's only the tip of the iceberg. The pride and high quality workmanship root all the way back to the mentality of Asians in general that puts "us" in front of "me". Western countries have an extremely high sense of individualism, whereas Asians think in terms of "groups" and how everything "I" do reflects upon "us". Thus, the mentality of working hard and getting everything done right arose from that concept.
In other words, let's compare a typical Japanese worker and a typical UAW American worker. A Japanese worker would try his best at what he does in the production line, because what he does reflects upon the car, the company, and the country; when the car he built is exported to another country, it'll be a representation of Japan, its people, and its quality. What do you think when you see Sony, Lexus, Acura, etc? High quality, more dependeable and durable.
A UAW worker, on the other hand based on the sense of individualism, is more "me, me, me". They want more money for less work, because all their way of thinking lies based on hedonism. Yes, it's human nature, but they are the definition of extreme hedonism. And when they don't get what they want, they won't hesitate to go on a strike, or sabotage the products and/or production lines. This guy my father knows, he bought a brand new Cadillac DeVille, and from day one, there was a rotting smell inside the car. After months and numerous trips to the dealership, they finally started taking off all the interior panels, and found a rotten burger inside one of the door panels.
This is UNTHINKABLE in a Japanese factory, where they have a high sense of pride for what they do. Since they put "we" in front of "I", they do not bitch and moan as much as UAW workers when they don't get what they want. They think in terms of "Is this good for my company, and thus, my country?" A UAW workers would think more in terms of "Is this good for ME? I want more money for what I do."
GM has to set aside FORTY BILLION dollars in pension funds for their UAW workers. Japanese companies do not have to. Why? Because they don't hire bitch-ass UAW workers. If GM were to expell UAW from their operations, that's forty billion dollars that they can spend in R&D, renovating factories, etc.
The quality of workmanship between my dad's 55k-dollar XL Denali and my 32k-dollar TL-S is unparalleled. And also, the rising costs of labor management translates directly to the final cost of each vehicle. That's why GM sells less of a car for the same money as their competitors. And because it just doesn't make sense, that's why they offer big incentives, which eats into their profits, which leads to losses, which leads to a higher cost on their vehicles, which leads to bigger incentives, etc, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the UAW is right in the middle of it.
I'm usually a complimenting person, and even if I didn't agree with something, I would let it slide. However, I have such big hatred toward the UAW, that when arguing with a UAW worker, I will not hesitate to spit on his/her face (figuratively speaking, of course).
Yeah, yeah, Japanese car companies have unions, too. But they are nowhere near as bad as the UAW. CAW is just as bad -- when the F-body production was killed, they made GM sign a contract stating that they can't use the names Camaro and Firebird unless the cars wearing those badges are built in one of their factories; thus the end of two legendary nameplates in American history, unless GM produces the cars in their factory. You guys may be indifferent to this, but as a big fan of the Camaro and the Firebird, this shady tactic infuriates me.
Fuck unions; they are the source of most of the problems in the automotive industry.
As for the 5-speed transmission from Japan, that was an engineering defect, not a workmanship defect. Sure, it's still Honda's fault, but as long as we're on the topic of workmanship level and quality, I just want to say that it's not the workers' fault that the transmission has a major defect.
And as for the mentality of "getting the job done", well, that's only the tip of the iceberg. The pride and high quality workmanship root all the way back to the mentality of Asians in general that puts "us" in front of "me". Western countries have an extremely high sense of individualism, whereas Asians think in terms of "groups" and how everything "I" do reflects upon "us". Thus, the mentality of working hard and getting everything done right arose from that concept.
In other words, let's compare a typical Japanese worker and a typical UAW American worker. A Japanese worker would try his best at what he does in the production line, because what he does reflects upon the car, the company, and the country; when the car he built is exported to another country, it'll be a representation of Japan, its people, and its quality. What do you think when you see Sony, Lexus, Acura, etc? High quality, more dependeable and durable.
A UAW worker, on the other hand based on the sense of individualism, is more "me, me, me". They want more money for less work, because all their way of thinking lies based on hedonism. Yes, it's human nature, but they are the definition of extreme hedonism. And when they don't get what they want, they won't hesitate to go on a strike, or sabotage the products and/or production lines. This guy my father knows, he bought a brand new Cadillac DeVille, and from day one, there was a rotting smell inside the car. After months and numerous trips to the dealership, they finally started taking off all the interior panels, and found a rotten burger inside one of the door panels.
This is UNTHINKABLE in a Japanese factory, where they have a high sense of pride for what they do. Since they put "we" in front of "I", they do not bitch and moan as much as UAW workers when they don't get what they want. They think in terms of "Is this good for my company, and thus, my country?" A UAW workers would think more in terms of "Is this good for ME? I want more money for what I do."
GM has to set aside FORTY BILLION dollars in pension funds for their UAW workers. Japanese companies do not have to. Why? Because they don't hire bitch-ass UAW workers. If GM were to expell UAW from their operations, that's forty billion dollars that they can spend in R&D, renovating factories, etc.
The quality of workmanship between my dad's 55k-dollar XL Denali and my 32k-dollar TL-S is unparalleled. And also, the rising costs of labor management translates directly to the final cost of each vehicle. That's why GM sells less of a car for the same money as their competitors. And because it just doesn't make sense, that's why they offer big incentives, which eats into their profits, which leads to losses, which leads to a higher cost on their vehicles, which leads to bigger incentives, etc, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the UAW is right in the middle of it.
I'm usually a complimenting person, and even if I didn't agree with something, I would let it slide. However, I have such big hatred toward the UAW, that when arguing with a UAW worker, I will not hesitate to spit on his/her face (figuratively speaking, of course).
Yeah, yeah, Japanese car companies have unions, too. But they are nowhere near as bad as the UAW. CAW is just as bad -- when the F-body production was killed, they made GM sign a contract stating that they can't use the names Camaro and Firebird unless the cars wearing those badges are built in one of their factories; thus the end of two legendary nameplates in American history, unless GM produces the cars in their factory. You guys may be indifferent to this, but as a big fan of the Camaro and the Firebird, this shady tactic infuriates me.
Fuck unions; they are the source of most of the problems in the automotive industry.
I am an engineer, I do not belong to a union. I used to think unions were evil and were detrimental to american business. Then I grew up... I got a family, I met people that were blue collar workers, good people who belonged to unions. I can see it from their perspective, not that I always agree with them but... Walk in their shoes and see what its like.
As for a pension funds that GM has to maintain, So what? My company has a pension fund as well, its called a benefit, part of my compensation package. Or don't you expect to be compensated for your work?
Do you have a Job? if so are you willing to work for $5.00 /hr and support a family? would you really like to work in Northern Mexico in those conditions. So when you talk about how poor GM has to suffer the unions, take a look at what they do when they can get a way with it. Oh BTW do you think enviromental rules apply there? Or do they dump the toxins from their processes directly into the environment. Would you like that dumped in your backyard?
The unions are an easy target, why don't you look at how the japanese view investment as opposed to our short sighted quarter to quarter system works. They want a long term success, american management is all about how they can get their bonus based upon how they did that quarter. Don't talk to me about the greed of the worker, how about CEO compensation. (Enron, hps carly, adelphia, tyco, GE and jack welsh, worldcom anyone? Morgan stanley. and I've barely scratched the surface)
But why do I waste my time?
05-17-2005, 10:51 PM
#130
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Originally Posted by KJSmitty
...But they can't control the mind and spirit of the individual worker nor double check every process/small task/job along the way.
I hate to admit it but we see it everyday, many of America's workers just want to make a buck and could care less about the product they produce. Though I believe Japan/Asia aren't as good as they use to be, they still have much more pride in their work. They wouldn't be where they are if they hadn't.
I hate to admit it but we see it everyday, many of America's workers just want to make a buck and could care less about the product they produce. Though I believe Japan/Asia aren't as good as they use to be, they still have much more pride in their work. They wouldn't be where they are if they hadn't.
I see what you mean in one thing:
(most) US auto plant workers dont wear uniforms or it's optional
I refuse to trust the workmanship of people who can go by a simple uniform rule
05-17-2005, 11:32 PM
#131
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Originally Posted by EZZ
What makes you think the design is American? The TSX which is the euro accord is prequel to the TL and it is a Japanese design. The powertrain = Japanese. The chassis = Japanese. I assume the interior design is American but even that isn't certain. Do you have information that I lack?
05-17-2005, 11:41 PM
#132
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
Hopefully we're not all starting to sound like anti-American's here... Definitely not our attempt. I myself think the many different manufacturing/innovative countries all compliment each other in one way or another.. And we the consumers definitely benefit from it.
Cheers
Definitely not our attempt. I myself think the many different manufacturing/innovative countries all compliment each other in one way or another.. And we the consumers definitely benefit from it.Cheers
dsc888
05-18-2005, 12:41 AM
#133
Originally Posted by NoRespect
I am an engineer, I do not belong to a union. I used to think unions were evil and were detrimental to american business. Then I grew up... I got a family, I met people that were blue collar workers, good people who belonged to unions. I can see it from their perspective, not that I always agree with them but... Walk in their shoes and see what its like.
As for a pension funds that GM has to maintain, So what? My company has a pension fund as well, its called a benefit, part of my compensation package. Or don't you expect to be compensated for your work?
Do you have a Job? if so are you willing to work for $5.00 /hr and support a family? would you really like to work in Northern Mexico in those conditions. So when you talk about how poor GM has to suffer the unions, take a look at what they do when they can get a way with it. Oh BTW do you think enviromental rules apply there? Or do they dump the toxins from their processes directly into the environment. Would you like that dumped in your backyard?
The unions are an easy target, why don't you look at how the japanese view investment as opposed to our short sighted quarter to quarter system works. They want a long term success, american management is all about how they can get their bonus based upon how they did that quarter. Don't talk to me about the greed of the worker, how about CEO compensation. (Enron, hps carly, adelphia, tyco, GE and jack welsh, worldcom anyone? Morgan stanley. and I've barely scratched the surface)
But why do I waste my time?
As for a pension funds that GM has to maintain, So what? My company has a pension fund as well, its called a benefit, part of my compensation package. Or don't you expect to be compensated for your work?
Do you have a Job? if so are you willing to work for $5.00 /hr and support a family? would you really like to work in Northern Mexico in those conditions. So when you talk about how poor GM has to suffer the unions, take a look at what they do when they can get a way with it. Oh BTW do you think enviromental rules apply there? Or do they dump the toxins from their processes directly into the environment. Would you like that dumped in your backyard?
The unions are an easy target, why don't you look at how the japanese view investment as opposed to our short sighted quarter to quarter system works. They want a long term success, american management is all about how they can get their bonus based upon how they did that quarter. Don't talk to me about the greed of the worker, how about CEO compensation. (Enron, hps carly, adelphia, tyco, GE and jack welsh, worldcom anyone? Morgan stanley. and I've barely scratched the surface)
But why do I waste my time?
As for the accusation that I have oversimplied the issue; I disagree. I don't think I did, and I wasn't talking about the American society overall. I'm just focusing on the micro level; only the automotive industry.
Also, I did NOT place ALL the blame on the unions. I stated that most of the problems have to do with the unions in one way or another; not all. I understand that there are other factors, not just unions. But I firmly believe that a lot, if not most, of the problems are caused by the greediness of the unions. Sure, not all union workers are like that, and I know that. I'm not blaming the average hard-working union worker; I blame the greedy, lazy workers who hide behind their union membership and manipulate the industry.
One of my friends worked at the Lansing Cadillac factory for a while, and he told me how bad union workers were. I know you would say it's all hearsay because I didn't witness it myself, but he's pretty reliable as far as information is concerned. And the stories he told me are absolutely ridiculous.
Unions, when they first started, had a profound meaning and a purpose; to protect the average hardworking people from being exploited by evil greedy employers. However, any developed country today has laws already regulating work environments and workers' rights, that we don't really need unions to "protect" the workers. In my opinion, unions' intentions and purpose have shifted from protection to privileges and money; almost an exploitation, if you will.
Simply put, they just ask for too much. I understand you guys' points and I agree with you to a certain extent. I know there are other factors besides just unions; but unions deserve most of the blame.
05-18-2005, 12:45 AM
#134
By the way, with the talk of management trends between America and Japan and the CEO compensation issue, I agree. They are to blame, as well.
HOWEVER, I was mainly focusing on the QUALITY problems on American cars. Notice how I was talking about production lines, laziness, sabotage when dissatisfied, etc. The management trends and the compensation issue are a different subject in the same chapter.
HOWEVER, I was mainly focusing on the QUALITY problems on American cars. Notice how I was talking about production lines, laziness, sabotage when dissatisfied, etc. The management trends and the compensation issue are a different subject in the same chapter.
05-18-2005, 01:33 AM
#136
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Once again, attitude flows down from the top, greedy manager = greedy rank & file workers. You can't seperate and examine a micro portion as it is related to the whole, sorry. Take a look at management theory and the affect on worker productivity and quality. I think we all have samples in our driveways or garages.
Can Acura build a better car, yes. The formula is; quailty-price-service, chose two. The total answer can't be make it in Japan.
Pension funds are agreed upon savings plans for future benefits to be paid. GM chose not to fund them fully and to use the money for something else. Similar to Social Security, State Highway Funds, etc.
Pure A, you have a passion and a general but incomplete understanding, keep studying.
Can Acura build a better car, yes. The formula is; quailty-price-service, chose two. The total answer can't be make it in Japan.
Pension funds are agreed upon savings plans for future benefits to be paid. GM chose not to fund them fully and to use the money for something else. Similar to Social Security, State Highway Funds, etc.
Pure A, you have a passion and a general but incomplete understanding, keep studying.
05-18-2005, 01:54 AM
#137
Originally Posted by MR1
Once again, attitude flows down from the top, greedy manager = greedy rank & file workers. You can't seperate and examine a micro portion as it is related to the whole, sorry. Take a look at management theory and the affect on worker productivity and quality. I think we all have samples in our driveways or garages.
Can Acura build a better car, yes. The formula is; quailty-price-service, chose two. The total answer can't be make it in Japan.
Pension funds are agreed upon savings plans for future benefits to be paid. GM chose not to fund them fully and to use the money for something else. Similar to Social Security, State Highway Funds, etc.
Pure A, you have a passion and a general but incomplete understanding, keep studying.
Can Acura build a better car, yes. The formula is; quailty-price-service, chose two. The total answer can't be make it in Japan.
Pension funds are agreed upon savings plans for future benefits to be paid. GM chose not to fund them fully and to use the money for something else. Similar to Social Security, State Highway Funds, etc.
Pure A, you have a passion and a general but incomplete understanding, keep studying.
matelot -- It wasn't my dad's car.
05-18-2005, 10:03 AM
#138
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
By the way, with the talk of management trends between America and Japan and the CEO compensation issue, I agree. They are to blame, as well.
HOWEVER, I was mainly focusing on the QUALITY problems on American cars. Notice how I was talking about production lines, laziness, sabotage when dissatisfied, etc. The management trends and the compensation issue are a different subject in the same chapter.
HOWEVER, I was mainly focusing on the QUALITY problems on American cars. Notice how I was talking about production lines, laziness, sabotage when dissatisfied, etc. The management trends and the compensation issue are a different subject in the same chapter.
On compensation and long term planning there is a relatiopnship, when the performance/compensation is based upon making bad decisions related to quality and what goes out the door and when. Overtime manufacturing, lower quality parts, (lower tolerance= lower quality) more chance for rattles/malfunction. It is my belief, and only my belief, that rattles are designed that way... Sounds like like I'm smoking crack, doesn't it? Well my point is this, cost /performance is examined and decisions are made. In the case of someone trying to milk every last cent out of the car to satisfy the profit projections for the week/month/quarter, they will go with the cheapest design they think they can get away with. Their engineers/designers will object, the workers will see it and object, the QA people will see it and object, but guess what, it ships. So who do you blame for the rattle?
A company that is planning for the long term errs on the side of better design and the company who pays attention only to the short term results and goes with the cheaper options. The thing that really gets me is that the cost of the problem is only measured at door of the factory and service and warranty issues are weighed separately. To make matters even worse they try to reduce the warranty cost by denying the problem and making the customers jump through hoops to discourage them from actually forcing them to fix the problem.
I work for a major computer company, we fight these issue ourselves. I watch sometimes helplessly as decisions are made that will adversely affect the customer. It sometimes takes a complete melt-down to institute change. The unions are no longer in control of their destiny. They are being forced to accept the world economy. (so am I)
05-18-2005, 11:39 AM
#139
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Greedy upper management produces greedy line workers. 
I see that the executives make a killing from my hard work so I want more too. Focus shifts from caring to greed.
I am a top producer in my field and my work speaks for itself, but I could easily see why someone would care less for the quality of their work when the company rips them off. Although, there are workers who don't deserve their compensation level either and they're probably the ones not checking for the 1/4" gaps, which is also a result of management choosing to ignore the gap issue right from design decision for cost reasons.
Of course many people in this forum knows this. I don't think we're beating the topic to death, I think we're successfully expressing ourselves and our understanding. So, it's good to see this thread going.
I see that the executives make a killing from my hard work so I want more too. Focus shifts from caring to greed.I am a top producer in my field and my work speaks for itself, but I could easily see why someone would care less for the quality of their work when the company rips them off. Although, there are workers who don't deserve their compensation level either and they're probably the ones not checking for the 1/4" gaps, which is also a result of management choosing to ignore the gap issue right from design decision for cost reasons.
Of course many people in this forum knows this. I don't think we're beating the topic to death, I think we're successfully expressing ourselves and our understanding. So, it's good to see this thread going.
05-18-2005, 11:55 AM
#140
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Originally Posted by sixteacup
Greedy upper management produces greedy line workers. I see that the executives make a killing from my hard work so I want more too. Focus shifts from caring to greed.
I am a top producer in my field and my work speaks for itself, but I could easily see why someone would care less for the quality of their work when the company rips them off. Although, there are workers who don't deserve their compensation level either and they're probably the ones not checking for the 1/4" gaps, which is also a result of management choosing to ignore the gap issue right from design decision for cost reasons.
Of course many people in this forum knows this. I don't think we're beating the topic to death, I think we're successfully expressing ourselves and our understanding. So, it's good to see this thread going.
I see that the executives make a killing from my hard work so I want more too. Focus shifts from caring to greed.I am a top producer in my field and my work speaks for itself, but I could easily see why someone would care less for the quality of their work when the company rips them off. Although, there are workers who don't deserve their compensation level either and they're probably the ones not checking for the 1/4" gaps, which is also a result of management choosing to ignore the gap issue right from design decision for cost reasons.
Of course many people in this forum knows this. I don't think we're beating the topic to death, I think we're successfully expressing ourselves and our understanding. So, it's good to see this thread going.
05-18-2005, 01:23 PM
#141
Quality...
There's a million angles that can be looked at in this debate but it really boils down to this:
Perfection is not obtainable, defects will occur, it's just a matter of how many, how often and what's the imperative for defect prevention.
To sum up the basic difference between "Japan Inc." and the domestics:
Domestics have an adversarial internal culture, the Japanese a cooperative internal culture.
Look at the surveys of automotive component suppliers and they all would rather deal with Toyota, Honda etc. than the domestics because of the cooperative vs adversarial methods.
Toyota and Honda actually worry about their suppliers making money because they need them healthy to keep their own businesses going. Domestics? Cut yer damn price or we'll dump you! Who do you think will get the better results?
And the bottom line IS the bottom line. Look which companies are growing and have the biggest war chests and which are sliding down the slope and I think you have the answer as to which approach works better.
Are the Japanese plants here in the U.S. less effective than their Japanese counterparts in doing quality? I don't think so. Are they better at doing quality than the domestics? Absolutely, not a doubt in my mind in this regard.
Union vs non-union:
The UAW and CAW are their own worst enemy because they unconditionally protect substandard, non performing members.
If you have a slug working next to you making the same money you do for doing crappy or minimal work, are you going to work better or harder? Not likely.
Toyota, Honda, Nissan have the ability to flush non-performing employees, but they also go to a lot greater lengths in the hiring process to screen out bad apples before they even hire them. The UAW/CAW would never tolerate that kind of scrutiny of a potential employee.
The unions need to be willing to clean up their membership before they can ever hope to be in a position to claim the moral higher ground, or save their collective a$$ for that matter.
Perfection is not obtainable, defects will occur, it's just a matter of how many, how often and what's the imperative for defect prevention.
To sum up the basic difference between "Japan Inc." and the domestics:
Domestics have an adversarial internal culture, the Japanese a cooperative internal culture.
Look at the surveys of automotive component suppliers and they all would rather deal with Toyota, Honda etc. than the domestics because of the cooperative vs adversarial methods.
Toyota and Honda actually worry about their suppliers making money because they need them healthy to keep their own businesses going. Domestics? Cut yer damn price or we'll dump you! Who do you think will get the better results?
And the bottom line IS the bottom line. Look which companies are growing and have the biggest war chests and which are sliding down the slope and I think you have the answer as to which approach works better.
Are the Japanese plants here in the U.S. less effective than their Japanese counterparts in doing quality? I don't think so. Are they better at doing quality than the domestics? Absolutely, not a doubt in my mind in this regard.
Union vs non-union:
The UAW and CAW are their own worst enemy because they unconditionally protect substandard, non performing members.
If you have a slug working next to you making the same money you do for doing crappy or minimal work, are you going to work better or harder? Not likely.
Toyota, Honda, Nissan have the ability to flush non-performing employees, but they also go to a lot greater lengths in the hiring process to screen out bad apples before they even hire them. The UAW/CAW would never tolerate that kind of scrutiny of a potential employee.
The unions need to be willing to clean up their membership before they can ever hope to be in a position to claim the moral higher ground, or save their collective a$$ for that matter.
05-18-2005, 01:54 PM
#142
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Shame shame - I do not see her wearing the kevlar sleeves - tsk tsk
Union violation right there.
I see what you mean in one thing:
(most) US auto plant workers dont wear uniforms or it's optional
I refuse to trust the workmanship of people who can go by a simple uniform rule
Union violation right there.
Originally Posted by matelot
I see what you mean in one thing:
(most) US auto plant workers dont wear uniforms or it's optional
I refuse to trust the workmanship of people who can go by a simple uniform rule
05-18-2005, 02:18 PM
#143
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https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/toyota-general-motors-earn-top-spots-j-d-power-associates-quality-survey-307077/
Toyota, General Motors Earn Top Spots in J.D. Power and Associates Quality Survey - - By Dee-Ann Durbin, AP Auto Writer - - Source: biz.yahoo.com
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Co., the world's two largest automakers, had the top vehicles in 15 of 18 categories in a closely watched survey of 2005 models released Wednesday by research firm J.D. Power and Associates.
Toyota's Lexus SC430 was the highest-ranking vehicle for the second year in a row. Owners of the luxury sedan reported 54 problems per 100 vehicles, less than half the industry average of 118 problems per 100 vehicles. Suzuki Motor Corp. had the highest rate of problems per vehicle at 151 per 100 vehicles.
Overall, Toyota had the top vehicles for initial quality in 10 categories, including the Toyota Prius compact car, Toyota Sienna minivan and Lexus sedans in all three luxury car categories. GM had five winners, including the Buick LeSabre full-size car, Chevrolet Suburban full-size sport utility vehicle and GMC Sierra heavy-duty full-size pickup.
The survey, in its 19th year, is an important one for automakers, which often use the results in their marketing campaigns. J.D. Power and Associates questioned more than 62,000 people within 90 days of buying or leasing a 2005 vehicle. The survey measures 135 attributes, including handling, braking, engine trouble and vehicle design.
Automakers showed little improvement in overall quality in 2005, moving up just one notch from 119 problems per 100 vehicles in 2004.
GM's Hummer brand showed the most improvement from the 2004 survey, J.D. Power said. Hummer was last among vehicle brands in 2004 with 173 problems per 100 vehicles. This year, it had 110 problems per 100 vehicles.
Nissan Motor Co. had the most improved vehicle model with the Nissan Quest minivan. The Kia Spectra, Hummer H2 and Toyota Scion xA also showed marked improvement.
J.D. Power and Associates: http://www.jdpa.com
Toyota, General Motors Earn Top Spots in J.D. Power and Associates Quality Survey - - By Dee-Ann Durbin, AP Auto Writer - - Source: biz.yahoo.com
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Co., the world's two largest automakers, had the top vehicles in 15 of 18 categories in a closely watched survey of 2005 models released Wednesday by research firm J.D. Power and Associates.
Toyota's Lexus SC430 was the highest-ranking vehicle for the second year in a row. Owners of the luxury sedan reported 54 problems per 100 vehicles, less than half the industry average of 118 problems per 100 vehicles. Suzuki Motor Corp. had the highest rate of problems per vehicle at 151 per 100 vehicles.
Overall, Toyota had the top vehicles for initial quality in 10 categories, including the Toyota Prius compact car, Toyota Sienna minivan and Lexus sedans in all three luxury car categories. GM had five winners, including the Buick LeSabre full-size car, Chevrolet Suburban full-size sport utility vehicle and GMC Sierra heavy-duty full-size pickup.
The survey, in its 19th year, is an important one for automakers, which often use the results in their marketing campaigns. J.D. Power and Associates questioned more than 62,000 people within 90 days of buying or leasing a 2005 vehicle. The survey measures 135 attributes, including handling, braking, engine trouble and vehicle design.
Automakers showed little improvement in overall quality in 2005, moving up just one notch from 119 problems per 100 vehicles in 2004.
GM's Hummer brand showed the most improvement from the 2004 survey, J.D. Power said. Hummer was last among vehicle brands in 2004 with 173 problems per 100 vehicles. This year, it had 110 problems per 100 vehicles.
Nissan Motor Co. had the most improved vehicle model with the Nissan Quest minivan. The Kia Spectra, Hummer H2 and Toyota Scion xA also showed marked improvement.
J.D. Power and Associates: http://www.jdpa.com
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