this has been discussed many times and people will have different beliefs. check this thread out.

American vs Japanese Quality

 

Japanese are just generally known to make quality and reliable cars. I do think Japanese are technologically more advanced and their workmanship and engineering is something unparalleled by Americans still, coming from myself, an American. I have been to Japan and I was totally amazed by the vehicles that were on the road I saw while I was there. I was also hesistant to buy the TL because it wasn't 100% manufactured in Japan. Just my

 

i firmly believe that if the TL was made in Japan, it would be a much more solid car. other people will say otherwise.

if you just look at it from a general perspective, japan made cars are more solid and just have better QA then cars built in the US. that goes for all the vehicles built within acura and honda's organization.

 

The general consensus from what I have learned is that the Japanese has a perfectionist attitude towards workmanship. Many workers stay with a single company for life and pride themselves on not just getting the job done but getting it done RIGHT. There was an article written about Honda Motors almost a decade ago in US News and World Reports that showcased the new 3rd Gen Accords. It spoke of how a single assembly line worker can halt the entire production line if he spotted trouble. And there was also mention of the much smaller salary gap between the workers and top managers as compared to those of the US. This helps to boost morale and pride in the workers.

Americans seem more focused to getting the job done ASAP for as low a cost as possible. IMHO, this lends to low morale and less QC. You can't have it both ways. But I am sure that Honda has done as much as it can to ensure that each and every TL will roll of the assembly line with as few defects as possible. In order for Acura to so competitively price our cars, sometimes a few defects will creep by.

dsc888

 

The attitude and commitment for quality starts at the top of the organization and works downward. At one time Honda was exporting some cars built here back to Japan. They may still be doing this. At one time Japan generally had an employment for life understanding with their employees. The Japanese are not technologically superior to Americans. They are not really innovators but are good at refining other nations ideas.

In todays global economy products designed to be uniformily well manufacturered can be assembled anywhere and are usually done so in markets with low labor rates and modern equipment most successfully. Germany has or had the highest labor cost in the world. To remain competitive they have had to build factories in other countries ie. here. Their products still remain over engineered imho therefore they have realiabilty problems.

Japan built auto plants here to A) be closer to their most important market and B) minimize protectionist conversations here as they were accused of dumping cars here for lower cost than they sold for at home. They also have or had tariffs and restrictions that made it difficult for the USA to export product to their market. Honda is the youngest and smallest Japense automaker and has the most at stake in the US. The biggest problems Honda and Toyota have had have been with Japanese manufactured components.

Back to quality. Attitude, design and the manufacturing process help indicate how good a product will be. There is little except preception that is superior about JDM cars.

Don't take my word for it or use your individual experience and old wives tales. Educate yourselfs with facts and not old wives tales and rumor. End of rant Flamesuiton.

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head dsc888,

I have spent quite a bit of time in Japan and other Asian countries.
The big key is "pride in workmanship" and they take "ownership" of what they do. A lot of integrity and honor is involved in, like you mentioned "doing it right".

Sure folks will say that Acura USA must follow processes and procedures set forth by corporate Acura, and thats 100% true. But they can't control the mind and spirit of the individual worker nor double check every process/small task/job along the way.

I hate to admit it but we see it everyday, many of America's workers just want to make a buck and could care less about the product they produce. Though I believe Japan/Asia aren't as good as they use to be, they still have much more pride in their work. They wouldn't be where they are if they hadn't.

 

I agree 100% with you on this matter. It is the fact because I am asian too and my back ground is Q.C. Supervisor/ MFG. Engineer.

 

Sadly, I find that to be VERY true.

 

Like the ones that cause all our disgusting rattles!

I couldn't help but notice that the Japanese made TSX's sunroof tracks are metal unlike the TL's plastic. Count me in on those who wish our TL's were made in Japan.

 

Just an FYI... the infamous Acura TL auto transmission is made in Japan

 

I concur.

It's quite simple, and I made that point when I shopped for my TL. Side by side in the showroom, the TL was on display with a TSX and the latter was a totally different car as far as build. It seemed to fall in the categories of the older Accords, Integras and Preludes which were incidentally Japanese imported models. I went for the TL because of the nature of my driving, (mostly highway) and the necessity for a much roomier car. After test driving the TSX, it was a little smaller than the TL but not by much but the ride was definitely not for the kinds of roads we have here.

Which would have been a better investment? Only the test of time will tell. Of which cars will be left running on the roads and will hold most of its value while others that started the same would have gone to the wreckers or as a worthless bucket of bolts.

 

My Japan built Integra was put together much better than my US built CL-S. Although I will probably only be able to afford a TL for my next car, I really wish I was able to buy a Japan built RL.

 

Generally I agree with the point that workmanship pride and cultural differences result in a higher quality product from Japan. I also agree that Japanese products also suffer in quality when subjected to global economy pressure.

However, I do not believe the American Laborer is completely at fault with poor workmanship and pride. I believe, in general American companies do not encourage and culture the same ethics as the Japanese culture does. Is it not a trend in the US to treat employees as disposable property? Employees are often viewed as liabilities and not assets. That starts at the top and trickles down. Employees who do not feel supported, secure or valued will react with apathy towards the work. How many companies will cut scores of workforced because the stock is not performaing as they promised the sharholders? It may not even be a matter of being in the red. How many companies outsource? How many of us have not been reminded how replaceable we are? How many of us believe working for a company is a lifelong pursuit? And yes, on the flip side, we have plenty of people who feel entitled to everything and a good life is owed them who do not contribute to their work, their home and their community. I believe the lable we are most familiar with is 'slackers'. I think we as employees also have very different expectations from our work and what we invest into it.

Instill those negative values into the workplace and employees are not loyal, are not eager to excel, are not willing to take risks. Yes, I believe it is a cultural issue more than a geographical issue. Japanese work ethics have been ecouraged in many domestic enterprises with some success. But the real question is, do American managed companies want to invest in the employee and culture to obtain that long term result of quality and perception of quality? In my opinion, for most companies...no. But if anyone knows of some good ones, forward me the addy to the HR department!

 

My 1993 Toyota Camry (built in Kentucky) was the most reliable car I'd owned. My 1999 Toyota Solara was built in Canada and it's doing just fine.

My 2004 Acura TL hasn't given me any trouble, and since the car IS built to Honda/Acura specs, I expect that it won't for the forseeable future.

Japanese cars built in America are still JAPANESE cars. American cars built in Mexico are still AMERICAN cars. One big difference between the typical Japanese manufacturer and the typical American manufacturer is that the individual components that make up the typical Japanese vehicle are built to a higher quality standard. A chain is only as good as its weakest link, and the weak links are the ones that will cause grief down the road.

Another big difference is that Japanese manufacturers use more automation in their factories, including their factories in the US. Less human intervention tends to lead to less variation in product. American manufacturers are also saddled with union rules that can hamper quality.

Regards,

 

This goes both ways. Japanese companies have always practiced "lifetime employment." Whereas America uses employment at will.

A worker will work differently when treated differently.

Unfortunately this is changing slowly in Japan and I'm sure it will affect product quality as attitudes of workers change.

http://www2.gol.com/users/kilburn/life.htm

 

Note the response to your point...

Who determines how many cars get produced in a day? Joe Smoe on the line? Who determines what is acceptable to ship? Who thought that it was acceptable to use double sided sticky tape to attach the head liner? I'm sure that the guy putting in the headliner thought to himself, today I'll use tape to put them in... it's faster!

I have watched our QA people turn purple over management decisions as to what is acceptable quality. It ain't the workers in all cases. If there is blame, make sure that spread around to all of the deserving, not just the poor B@st### on the line.

 

I agree that american worksmanship needs improvement. I believe it is something we could fix, although it does not seem like anyone is stepping in to try, and it would cost the car companies a lot of money to better train and monitor employees.

 

I thought it was the other way around...and I think most of us would agree..I dont know what the hell you are talking about and No I am not from Japan

 

It's only psychological. The faulty transmissions were from Japan while the bulletproof engines were from America. At the same time, I've driven a few TSXs with more rattles and misaligned parts than my 02 TL.

And MR1 was right about the Japanese not being innovators. They take technology from other countries and make it into a new product.

 

Thanks for the link. You have a very valid point. A good employer makes a worker want to work and commit. That's why we hear Japanese workers doing many hours of OT. It's expected of them many times in order to help the company meet their deadlines.

dsc888

 

I don't think its necessary the country of origin as it is the specific factory where the cars are made from. For example, Lexus has a much higher reliability and quality rating than the rest of Toyota and they are all built in one factory in Japan that is legendary for its craftsmanship. If you notice, Infiniti also has a stellar factory in Japan that has extremely high quality and reliability ratings across both time and model designation. If you look at most other Nissan vehicles, the quality just isn't there anymore and that is due to much of the production at one specific plant in the US (Tennessee facility).

It just so happens that this plant is in the US but it is a new plant and they are just getting good at quality control. Sure the culture may play a part in how well a factory runs but it may just be a cultural factor of that one plant and not necessarily a race/ethnic event. Most Accords have excellent reliability and quality and are all built in the plant in Ohio.

 

I also agree here. Americans are much more innovative in my opinion. And once an idea gets out, the Japanese will take it and improve upon it. The Japanese are more focused on the manufacturing aspect of the product than they are on the innovative. I have a Japanese friend who once said that there is a push in Japan now to get people to think "outside of the box" and to come out with fresher ideas.

dsc888

 

I cannot believe that people believe some of the QA drival... The TL is a cheaper made car is all. That's why there are more problems with it. They hit a price point chocked full of extras that other companies charge more for. If the assembly process is perfect but the raw parts are of poorer quality, it does not matter how great the assembly plant is... garbage in garbage out.

I do not believe that in the 21st century we say that the quality standards are lacking in one place or another. Quality costs $$$ with no advantage other than a more reliable car. Something you do not feel right away at the bottom line. A lexus is much more expensive than a Acura because of the quality of materials, etc.

 

Gung Ho! (I think that was the name of the movie)

 

Have you been in an IS300. The materials are pretty cheap (hard plastic everywhere!). However, that thing does not have a single squeak, rattle, or creak. Lexus truly has quality down pat.

 

and that's the cheapo model..

 

My in-laws have own(ed) 4 Lexus - and I must say I have never heard them complain once. Three have been ES (one of which is a Limited Edition or something) and the 4th one was a SC400 or something like that - 2 door coupe back in early to mid 90's - sweeeeet car. They never seem to get much off the sticker price though when buying them - is that a Lexus thing? I have not met a dealer I could not get down, never tried Lexus...do they not bargain?

 

We bought one of the first Acura Legends in 1986. Transmission went out after 80K, had it rebuild under, thank God, extended warranty. Otherwise it was solid as a tank. Put 225K on it and donated it, in perfect condition no less, because the buying offers were just insultingly low! Found my TL to be build well, knock on wood, and like to think that Honda has basically been able to tranfer over the same high level of quality control from Japan to Maryland. When factories opened up here they must have been able to install and upgrade the latest robotics on the assembly line. And I have faith in the training and pride of American Honda workers who certainly understand that they are being measured against the Japanese standard of workmanship.

 

86 compared to 05.. apples and oranages ... a different time and different place...

 

I have an 05 TL and have no problems with the car. It is built solid. The American workers who put this car together did an excellent job. It seems that those who have issues, have them with the 04. When you buy a vehicle that is a redesign or in it's first year you are bound to run into some problems. Historically first model year cars have problems. Most of these issues are worked out by the following year. This happens no matter where in the world the car is manufactured.

 

I strongly disagree. I have worked in industries and factories from shipbuilding to semiconductors on both coasts. I have found the desire to take pride in ones work to be universal - from union shipfitters, painters, and welders to technicians and engineers. Workers in America want to take pride in their work, and will do so when encouraged and permitted to. This is Deming 101.

As for the TL, I have found NO workmanship flaws in my car. There have been issues where something like a rattle could have been prevented if it had been better engineered or a more expensive solution had been selected. Considering the TL's 'bang for the buck' philosophy, it was probably the latter more often than the former. The car was assembled very well, and I suspect that the workers at the factory took pride in their work and are proud of the car they produced.

Foreign design and manufacturing would probably not have produced a superior product in this case. The fact that the TL is a product of American engineering almost certainly contributed to my decision to purchase it. It was designed by Americans who understood American customers, who understood me. The TL stood out and appealed to me more than its foreign engineered competitors - design, materials, ergonomics, value, and yes - quality. Americans did one hell of a great job on the TL. The sales figures back that up.

 

What makes you think the design is American? The TSX which is the euro accord is prequel to the TL and it is a Japanese design. The powertrain = Japanese. The chassis = Japanese. I assume the interior design is American but even that isn't certain. Do you have information that I lack?

 

This thread will be debated until the end of time but I don't think there is a significant difference in Japanese versus American orgin for Toyota or Honda. Over the years I've driven and worked on Honda and Acura's built in Japan, USA, and Canada and couldn't tell any significant difference in quality of materials or quality of workmanship.

Alot of folks believe vehicle build quality comes down to cost and while that's part of it, it is not all of it. Process control and procedures make up the very important part of manufacturing. Toyota has spent a tremendous amount of time teaching TPS (Toyota Production System) which is the basis of their manufacturing philosophy. Honda has a similar internal manufacturing quality system of their own. This is were they have strived to be better, one saying from TPS is "No problem is problem" since it uses a CPI (Continous Process Improvement) model.

Oddly enough when the GM/Toyota joint manufacturing plant opened in CA in the 80's the GM middle managers at that plant who became enamored with TPS tried teaching it to senior/executive management. Unfortunately it fell on mostly deaf ears.

Back to the America versus Japan debate, since noone in this forum has the internal Honda quality metrics the answer will remain unknown. Honda doesn't release much internal information about the differences involving quality and location, however awhile ago they did a press release for best quality for their manufacturing facilities and a Honda Canada facility won the award over America and Japan.

Just my opinion I don't think there is any difference, alot of the decision to build product XYZ at plant ABC depends on logistics, currency exchange rates, facility capacity and configuration so I've never believed it's made in Japan for quality.

 

A true home-grown product, the concept and styling for the third-generation TL was created at Honda R&D in Ohio and California. Engineering of the TL took place at Honda R&D's Ohio Center, only a few miles from the Marysville plant.

From: www.ohio.honda.com

 

Anyone have any info regarding Service Departments in Japan? THAT is what I would be interesting to learn - the "after the sale" quality. Cause IMO, that is where we are failing (America) - just look at some of the pics of people who had their car in for service.

I agree with what is being said here having worked in a Factory myself for a short time. The headliner falling is not "Johnny Line-Worker's" lack of quality (unless he stuck it in there without peeling off the backing!) - it is the design folks (and many others up the chain) Johnny can only install the parts that are provided to him in his Bin(s). If he is stripping bolts with his torque gun or dropping screws in the dash - then it is him - Assembly, but I do not think that is the type of problems mostly complained about here. Most sound like New and/or design, Lack of testing and QC of supplied parts etc. But Assembly problems I have not seen. Just my

 

The rest of the release seems pertinent to the discussion and it's a bit hard to find since it's archived at their site, so I'll post it. I didn't know that the TL's engine was made in USA too.



MARYSVILLE, OHIO - Marking the successful launch of the newest product at its Marysville Auto Plant, Honda of America Mfg. is shipping the all-new 2004 Acura TL to dealers for its on-sale date this Monday, Oct. 6.

The TL is the third vehicle launched from Honda of America in the past year. One year ago, production started on the totally redesigned Honda Accord, and late last year, the new Honda Element was launched from the East Liberty Auto Plant.

A true home-grown product, the concept and styling for the third-generation TL was created at Honda R&D in Ohio and California. Engineering of the TL took place at Honda R&D's Ohio Center, only a few miles from the Marysville plant.

A key objective was to remain true to the design concept in the final product, said Jim Macaluso, engineering project leader for the Acura TL.

"The concept called for taking the TL to a new level of performance, style and handling, and adding some exclusive new technology as well," Macaluso said. "Our job was to engineer a best-in-class luxury car. Our design, new-model and manufacturing teams in Ohio succeeded."

Manufactured at Honda of America's engine plant near Anna, Ohio, the 2004 TL's V-6 engine generates 270 horsepower, offering more performance than the previous TL Type-S model.

The new Acura TL is the widest vehicle ever produced at the flexible Marysville plant

With both vehicle development and manufacturing operations at nearby locations in Ohio, the manufacturing, new-model and R&D associates, along with key suppliers, met regularly as development of the new TL progressed.

"From a manufacturing standpoint, we made a commitment to focus on manufacturability of the product to achieve Honda's outstanding quality, safety and efficiency," said Tom Shoupe, Honda of America vice president and manager of the Marysville Auto Plant.

Associates at the Marysville plant were involved throughout the TL's development to ensure that it would be easier to assemble, Macaluso said. The project teams helped implement design solutions to improve safety during manufacturing and achieve the best quality from the start of production.

All of Honda's new-model introductions over the past 20-plus years in Ohio have taken place as running changes, where the assembly lines continue operating as the new models were introduced. Today, Honda is Ohio's No. 1 motor vehicle manufacturing company.

Over 24 years of operations, Honda of America has invested nearly $5 billion in its four Ohio facilities. In addition, the company has more than 450 suppliers in North America, with approximately 160 in Ohio. An economic force in Ohio and the U.S., Honda of America purchases from its automotive suppliers exceed $7.6 billion annually.

In addition to manufacturing facilities, Ohio is home to Honda Transmission Mfg. in Russells Point and Honda Engineering North America, a Marysville-based company that develops, manufactures and purchases the tooling for Honda's Ohio manufacturing operations.

The manufacturing operations, along with American Honda Motor Co.'s sales, training and distribution operations in the state, Honda directly employs more than 16,000 people in Ohio.

 

Thanks for the Info I always knew the Ohio plant was good.

 

Ok that's fine for stats... And all the crap everyone likes to be impressed with... But if you miss the mark of quality what good does all that mean. This is like hearing he president say well china and india's exconomy is growing and that's why oil is up in price. read between the lines a bit more and you will see that we are sending all our jobs there and that's really why.

So for honda to say number one employer and more than 20 years and 5 billion invested.
Well throwing money at something does not resolve the problem. It creates more!
They got 5 billion of equipment that produces rattles.

Most assembly lines leave very little room for any crafsmanship of an individual. They us scientific management principles to minimize the flaws that may be introduced by a human. of course the management does not do that.. Only the factory. The management wants to you listen to the hype.

 

fUAW is what's wrong with American cars, or cars made in the USA.

As for the 5-speed transmission from Japan, that was an engineering defect, not a workmanship defect. Sure, it's still Honda's fault, but as long as we're on the topic of workmanship level and quality, I just want to say that it's not the workers' fault that the transmission has a major defect.


And as for the mentality of "getting the job done", well, that's only the tip of the iceberg. The pride and high quality workmanship root all the way back to the mentality of Asians in general that puts "us" in front of "me". Western countries have an extremely high sense of individualism, whereas Asians think in terms of "groups" and how everything "I" do reflects upon "us". Thus, the mentality of working hard and getting everything done right arose from that concept.

In other words, let's compare a typical Japanese worker and a typical UAW American worker. A Japanese worker would try his best at what he does in the production line, because what he does reflects upon the car, the company, and the country; when the car he built is exported to another country, it'll be a representation of Japan, its people, and its quality. What do you think when you see Sony, Lexus, Acura, etc? High quality, more dependeable and durable.

A UAW worker, on the other hand based on the sense of individualism, is more "me, me, me". They want more money for less work, because all their way of thinking lies based on hedonism. Yes, it's human nature, but they are the definition of extreme hedonism. And when they don't get what they want, they won't hesitate to go on a strike, or sabotage the products and/or production lines. This guy my father knows, he bought a brand new Cadillac DeVille, and from day one, there was a rotting smell inside the car. After months and numerous trips to the dealership, they finally started taking off all the interior panels, and found a rotten burger inside one of the door panels.

This is UNTHINKABLE in a Japanese factory, where they have a high sense of pride for what they do. Since they put "we" in front of "I", they do not bitch and moan as much as UAW workers when they don't get what they want. They think in terms of "Is this good for my company, and thus, my country?" A UAW workers would think more in terms of "Is this good for ME? I want more money for what I do."

GM has to set aside FORTY BILLION dollars in pension funds for their UAW workers. Japanese companies do not have to. Why? Because they don't hire bitch-ass UAW workers. If GM were to expell UAW from their operations, that's forty billion dollars that they can spend in R&D, renovating factories, etc.

The quality of workmanship between my dad's 55k-dollar XL Denali and my 32k-dollar TL-S is unparalleled. And also, the rising costs of labor management translates directly to the final cost of each vehicle. That's why GM sells less of a car for the same money as their competitors. And because it just doesn't make sense, that's why they offer big incentives, which eats into their profits, which leads to losses, which leads to a higher cost on their vehicles, which leads to bigger incentives, etc, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the UAW is right in the middle of it.

I'm usually a complimenting person, and even if I didn't agree with something, I would let it slide. However, I have such big hatred toward the UAW, that when arguing with a UAW worker, I will not hesitate to spit on his/her face (figuratively speaking, of course).

Yeah, yeah, Japanese car companies have unions, too. But they are nowhere near as bad as the UAW. CAW is just as bad -- when the F-body production was killed, they made GM sign a contract stating that they can't use the names Camaro and Firebird unless the cars wearing those badges are built in one of their factories; thus the end of two legendary nameplates in American history, unless GM produces the cars in their factory. You guys may be indifferent to this, but as a big fan of the Camaro and the Firebird, this shady tactic infuriates me.

Fuck unions; they are the source of most of the problems in the automotive industry.

 

I personnaly don't think Acura/Honda has missed the mark of quality with this vehicle. I can't be alone in this thought given the number of TL's that Acura has sold. I have a hard time believing that if the majority of people who purchased this car were truely unhappy due to mechanical issues then Acura would have a large class action suit on their hands.

Any first model year car will have problems. I've had issues with first year models from other manufacturers. That's why I don't buy first model year cars any longer. I wouldn't even buy a first model year Lexus as much as I'd like to trade my wife's car in towards a new GS.

As for equipment that produces rattles, if they had such a thing they must have used different equipment to manufacture my car. You must be truely unhappy with your car as you sound very down on Acura.

And not to go off on a tangent, but jobs are moving to India and China strictly as a cost saving measure. I've watched over 1000 jobs go to Banagalore from my company. They only pay 4K a year there for a job that pays 40K here.