I follow the MID on when to change oil. Took delivery on 23 Jan. Did first oil change when MID went to <5% at 5200 miles - that was on 14 May, or approx 4 mos.

I'm now at approx 9200 miles and the MID is reading 40%. Assuming the MID keeps dropping at this rate I'll hit 5% around 12,000 miles.

Thus, the mileage interval between delivery and change #1 of 5200 miles will increase to about 6700 miles between change #1 and change #2. Maybe my math is bad, but this seems pretty significant - a 29% increase.

This also has me curious, because my driving patterns haven't really changed - and the weather has been warmer since the first change, which I assumed the computer would factor in to reduce the interval.

Anyone else have experience to share on intervals after the first change?

 

What bothered me about my first service was the comments made by the Acura service center of McGrath Acura in Westmont, IL - where I also purchased the 04-TL. I took my car in the for it's first change when the monitor read 10%. This was about 5200 miles. The change was about $35 +/-, I really don't remember the exact amount. When I was in, they also asked if I wanted to do my 7500 mile check which includes inpspections and what-not in addition to a tire rotation. I agreed since I wasn't that far off in mileage and wanted to save a trip. We'll of course the inspections were all clear and total bill rose to $110. My mistake for letting that happen. But what was the most interesting I asked the service representative about oil change intervals. What prompted this was a valvoline oil sticker put up in the driver side corner of my window indicating an oil change after 3 months or 3k miles. McGrath said that they recommend 3mo/3k instead of the monitor. I thought that was inconsistent and wondered if anyone else has had this experience.

 

First oil change was as 6800 miles (5% oil life). I used Mobil1 0W-20.

Second oil change was last week at 12537 miles (10% oil life). Again I used Mobil1 0W-20.

You can do the math from there. At double the 6800 miles (13,600) I probably would've been at 5% again.

 

Here is some good reference material:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=195574

My dealer said stick to the MiD, but with a nod and a wink, they indicated that more frequent oil changes might be prudent.

Here is my take, with 20 years of tribology under my belt, 35 years of wrenching, and countless oil analyses:

1) I have reasonably high confidence in the MiD - Honda engineers are not idiots - one does not make engines like the BAR F1 Honda without smarts.
2) On the other hand, longer maintenance intervals have been shown to make a car more appealing to certain market targets: women, especially working women; women, especially single women; and non-mechanically inclined men. The TCO (total cost of ownership) is kept low, which many people who move up from an Accord to the near-luxo market like.
3) Modern oils are greatly improved, and engine tolerances are tighter, and fuel metering more precise - each contributes to longer oil service life.
4) Below a certain point, wear rates from oil degradation skyrocket - this can almost precisely be measured by an oil's residual TBN, or total base number, an indicator of the oil's alkalinity (it moves from alkaline to more acid as it degrades); below about 1.5 TBN, the engine's additives are about gone, making the engine susceptible to increased wear
5) The MiD is a grand compromise - it is an attempt to balance all of the above - but it is far from precise, and as far as I am concerned, completely unproven. Add in the factor of the super-light oils now recommended, which are not totally proven either in US driving conditions, and you have a bit of a dicey situation. Is Honda being conservative enough on its oil change intervals via the MiD, or is it erring on the side of the marketing group, and letting the oil go a bit past its SOA (safe operating area)? The system does not actively sample the oil, which it could do - it is an entirely passive component, using a series of input criteria (trip length, start cycles, RPM, etc.) to estimate the oil's residual life. Like any such system, it could be wrong, esp if the marketing people won out over engineering.
6) Until I see a number of UOA (used oil analyses) with 5w20, non-synthetic oil, I am going to change more often. Ford has gone to 5k across the board (no normal or severe service schedules anymore), and based on my experience and analyses, that is a safe figure. There may be a bit more life "on the shelf", but I am not willing to risk it for a few dollars. Are you?

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Another option is o follow the MiD, but use either a GIII base oil mineral oil like the 10w30 Motorcraft, a 5w20 synblend like Motorcraft, a 5w20 full synoil like Red Line, or perhaps one of the suoper lights like Mobil1 0w20 (jury still out on that one too).

The GIII oils (whether they are called mineral like Motorcraft, or synoil like Castrol's Syntec) can easily go the full length of the MiD with complete assurance. There is no doubt that they have enough reserve TBN to reach 10k at least, which is higher than any MiD number I have seen here.
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Change the oil filter at every oil change, not every other oil change as Honda recommends - this is undoubtedly the marketing and accounting guys winning over ther engineering guys. Do you know anyone who waits to a 2nd oil OCI to change the oil filter? Even Amsoil recommends 6 month oil filter intervals, whereas their oil can be changed once a year or 25K, whichever comes first (so they say, and excluding the rip-off XL-7500 stuff).
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Me? I going to use LE 8130, change when the MiD says, new filter. That should appease Honda and my own sense of well-being. If long-term oil analyses of 5w20 continue to hold up, and posts of UOA's using the MiD's OCI's hold up as well, then I will be converted, and publicly re-state my opinion. I do not like to gamble, especially with expensive engines.
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If you lease, who cares, right? If you are considering a program car, make sure you check the service records - I would not buy a program car that had only done maintenance by the book - I mean, by the MiD.

 

0W20 ?? engine calls for 5W20 in 2004 TL.

as for new oil changes, it's good practice to flush contaminents twice during 1st 1500 miles of use.

 

Point One: Mobil believes its 0w20 is compatible with factory recommendations of 5w20. I personally do not agree for a variety of reasons, but I am sure the guy who uses it knows what the factory rec is. 0w20 is basically a 0w oil with polymers added to make it act like a 20 wt when warmer - but those VI's are not 100% stable, and 0w20 will shear down to less than a 20w. And Mobil1's oils are at the low end of the API specs for oil grades to begin with. Me no like.

Point Two: Honda specifically recommends leaving its factory fill in the engine until the first oil change. Its OE oil has wear-reducing chemistry Honda believes will provide for a better break-in, and I can assure you that there is supporting technical info for that. I have also posted that if you want to switch the oil out earlier (for the reasons you stated, and which I agree with), then the OE additives can be found in a commercial product - Valvoline Maxlife Engine Protector. if you want the details of the oil analyses performed for me to make that rec, search on "The RR Journals" and look for the keyword lubricants.

 

So, being the owner of a new car within it's first 1500 miles, should I just change the oil before the recommended 3k but just add the additive? Will I realistically gain anything?

-Steve

 

Road Rage

I don't know what the "RR Journals" are? I'd like to know more about engine oil. Any web site you suggest? Also, how much is testing. I've never done that with a car but would be interested.

Thanks

 

RR Journals are posts that Road Rage contribute to the forum.

Also, in answer to 'screaming' - I do not think this is an additive you can just purchase from your local Pep Boys. I would leave the original oil in and just wait until the MID tells you to change it.

 

First the RR Journals are posts or links to posts that have universal appeal and are frequently asked.

I arrange them as "The RR Journals: XXXXX". Where XXXXX equals the topic of interest. So if one were to actually SEARCH on 'RR Journals', there they are. Magic!

Second, I could have sworn that I said that the Valvoline MaxLife Engine Protector is available at the usual mega car stores - I found it at Pep Boys - that is the reason i posted on it - it is cheap, available, and does the job.