I constantly sound like a broken record on this site when say that reaction time can have a huge impact on a "perceived" win in a street race. It also leads to incorrect assumptions that the car that won is actually faster.

Here is a perfect video demostrating what I've been saying. It's a race between a modded C63 AMG and a ACR Viper. The AMG reacts faster than the Viper driver, but at the end, both cars cross the line at the same time. The AMG runs a 11.6@125 and the Viper a MUCH faster 11.1@133mph. 0.5 seconds and 8mph is HUGE yet the Viper couldn't beat the AMG to the finish simply because the driver was slow to react. Take note of the difference between the AMG squating on the launch and then Viper. The difference in time appears minimal, but look at the impact on the finish. In a street race, the AMG owner might be fooled into thinking he's got the quicker and faster car, but in reality that's far from the case.

http://youtu.be/rbgTJ5PxoPE

Point is, aside from the facts that it's stupid and dangerous, street racing is absolutely worthless in evalutating your car's performance.

 

You don’t really need great physical reaction time to do well on the launch. Its just a case of how you stage, work the lights based on how you & the car reacts as a team. I did a lot of bracket racing in a ‘67 Corvette Coupe 4MT at Englishtown. This was one of the last 4MT’s in the gamblers races. In that car I left when I saw the last yellow light get full color.

Very seldom red lighted & almost always had a better reaction time then the other lane. On occasion when the Vette was on jack stands took my wife's Fleetwood Brougham 4 door pocket battleship & left as soon as I saw color in the last yellow. Won a few street eliminator trophy's with that car running an 18.25ET on a 18.24 dial in. A lot of guys would panic & red light when they saw me lumbering halfway down the track before their lights even started.

Interesting reaction time test.....get a new bill that has the presidents picture in the middle, not offset.

Have a friend hold it in his fingertips by the long end with the bill hanging straight down. You hold your thumb & first finger open at the very bottom. The bill is dropped without warning & you close your fingers & catch the bill. If you connect no later then the presidents picture you reaction time is pretty good.

With the new offset presidents picture your target is the middle or before. Don't watch the holder as its a cheat, just the bill or you are kidding yourself.

 

This is fun to play with, but it hardly simulates real life racing.

http://www.mariettascientific.com/boss/nhratree/

 

on the other hand, one could argue that reaction time is just as important as power in a race. if i beat a g in my civic, i know im not making more power, just that i am a better driver.

No matter how you cut it, the viper lost.

 

Driver and car are not at all that exclusive in some instances, especially when you have very similar performing vehicles within close range. In those situations, a car and whatever it may or may not be capable of running is rather meanignless without the capabilities of the driver. On paper, even as much as a .5 looks huge but as proven by the video, even that amount is clearly not that substantial when it can't overcome a minor difference in reaction time or launch.

There is no such thing as a perceived win, a win is a win when you are racing the other person, it's true that a win may not necessarily be a win at times but that's only when you are racing a clock AND you also remove the reaction time. Drag racing is the only form of racing that removes reaction times from the equation, even when it comes to other time trial based competitions.

If we always know what the faster or slower car should be, what is the point of even racing then? That is not racing in the pure sprit of racing, your only racing yourself that way and it probably shouldn't be called racing, it's more like chronological time trials. People who do engage in street racing are not really concerned with numbers, only the outcome. That's how you win or lose, there is no consolation and there is not supposed to be.

Look at pro swimmers or sprinters, etc, statistically it's not too hard to see who the faster individual may be or should be. They have cummulative information and pre-trials runs, etc, that establish that sort of thing and they do actually include reactions times but the race still has to be run, they don't go handing out trophies based on stats. That's great for record purposes and bragging rights and what have you but it's lousy when it comes to the spirit of head to head competition (I am not advocating street racing).

A typical 1/4 mile drag race is not even all that conclusive of a measure as to what is ultimately faster or slower, especially when you are dealing with 12 sec cars or better, or when dealing with different types of drivetrains. Even the very informative post above suggest that the better the head start, the better the time, which is a result of superior staging and launching, mostly which is all unmeasured time and unaccounted for, so it's not necessarily an even match.

If you ran off idle one run and then ran with a launch and proper staging next, there would be a pretty substantial difference in time. Those are the two extreme ends but the same concept holds true for a car that can launch better or at a higher rpm and a driver who stages better than another. So a drag race doesn't really present equal paramaters. That's not an issue for substantially faster or slower cars but is when you are talking about similar performing vehicles.

If you really want a better pure measure of what car is faster, you would run off idle and start measuring/clocking at 5 mph to the end of a 1/2 mile or to the top speed of the slower vehicle where applicable. The better time is the faster car. In the case of manual shifting of an auto or a pure munual, it's not necessarily the faster car without question unless the drivers shifting is equal but it is a much better measure of what is truly faster with least amount of variables when compared to traditional drag racing.

 

^^

 

winstrolvtec-

I get what you're saying and I agree with most of it. However, you're missing my point. My whole point is people, especially those that have never raced at the strip, don't understand just how much reaction time has on the outcome of a race. The faster car does not always win. I've beaten many much faster cars at the strip to the finish. I would have been the victor in a heads up race or street race and those watching might get the impression that I had the faster car, which isn't true.

Sure, there are lots of variables that come into play during a race, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand power to ratios and which car should be technically faster on average. I'm not arguing that. Also, the number of crappy drivers FAR outnumber the good drivers. You see that time and again at the strip during test and tune nights.

I just think it's important that people understand just how much sleeping 0.5 seconds in reaction time has on the outcome of a race. It's so rare in a street race that both drivers leave at exactly the same time as shown often in these 3 honk street races. Take note just how often the guy doing the three honk leaves before the other car. If you actually see/hear one car leaving before the other, that's easily 0.5 seconds. That would mean a 14.0 second TL would walk away from a 13.5 second F-Body until around 120mph or so until the HP started really pulling the F-Body around.

 

That's why 3 honk races are such BS. 99% of the time its 2.5 honks in favor of the honker. The thing about running at the track, win or lose, you know how fast your car is vs. the other one based on et/mph. Beside, if you win with a worse et you also know you are the best driver in that run.

 

It's a reality check for sure, and I think most of these guys are afraid of it. Case in point, last week at T&T, my best run was 14.4 @ 98+ on a 2.24 short time. On the way to the track, I was almost certain I was going to bag a 13.9-14.0 @ 100-101, but it didn't happen. Granted, it was hot, and that run corrects to a 14.15 @ 100, but still not that great. Without any more power, I'll need a low 2.1x to break into the 13's, with ideal weather conditions. Seems everyone thinks they can throw a few bolt ons on these cars and run solid mid 13's, but it just doesn't happen. Maybe a fully bolted Type-S 6MT on slicks could do it on a 40 degree day. It's like that 13.7 @ 101 mph TL on Youtube. If you check the stats for that run, you'll see it was run in BC, Canada on a 30 something degree night, and that run corrects to ~14.0 @ 99 mph.

 

As far as I can remember when I followed Acurazine more closely only one member with a TL 6MT posted a 13.9 time slip.....think it was about 101 in the traps. He had all the std bolt-ons & took a lot of cumulative runs to get there. There could be others but I just don’t remember seeing any other time slips

 

Good read Dave_B

 

I agree with most of the stuff here...but whenever I have a friendly race Im looking at how the cars pull, not who comes out in frount at the end..I know when I get a jump in a race etc. I care about seeing which car is faster, not who wins the pointless street race

 

Full bolt on 2nd gen 6 speed no slicks and low 70s out


video

http://www.youtube.com/user/reese8789

 

Nice run, but I was talking strictly 3G. 6MT swapped 2G's with bolt ons are strong. Probably due to the headers and a little less weight.

 

BTW, have you done anything to your car recently? I remember you running like 13.7-13.8 @ ~ 102 before. 104 mph is damn impressive. And do you know how much power the intake and runner porting was good for? All I can find is speculation, but no real dyno/timeslip evidence.

 

good read. this is true. but to be honest, it doesnt matter much how fast your car is unless your a professional racer. sure its fun to mod and have faster cars and test their limits, but you shouldnt be upset or disappointed if your car cant break 10's.

 

No new power adders just new suspension, I have ran multiple 103mph before check out my dyno thread on the 2gen cl side. I have no idea what the ported runners, manifold and throttle body are good for but I would say 10hp or so.

 

Runs strong. Any weight reduction?

 

Nice! Your video makes me wanna keep my TL hahaha!

 

Just the spare tire and jack removed

 

Is your TB bored too? I was thinking about sending mine to maxbore; they charge ~ 200 to bore the TB, add a new butterfly and port the mouth of the manifold to the new size. I was thinking about porting the lower runners and as far into the manifold ports as I can get myself. I was figuring around 8-10 whp as well for the whole thing.

 

Yes it is bored also but only to the throttle plate and back side to the mouth of manifold. I ported everything myself you can do a very professional job with the right tools such as various carbide bits .The process is alot of labor though.