I'm sorry, but the TL rapes the new BMW 3
08-25-2005, 11:05 AM
#81
Senior Moderator
Nikko: Let me say again:
I can and have compared the two in the real world. I have not compared the 545i which is a different animal, if the same size. I have great respect for it. But I'm not ready to spend the same amount of money that I could have TWO TLs.
I have also said before that I have no squeaks or rattles in my TL. It is dead quiet.
I admit that the Acura marque does not have the same wide-eyed status as BMW. But I judge a car on my personal experience and how it meets my needs. Also, how much it delivers for the money spent.
I am not interested in impressing the neighbors. Interestingly, on that topic, the younger neighbors (teens-twenties) fawn all over the TL and practically ignore the 3 series parked next to it. Come to think of it, I think they like the Jeep Wrangler the most.
Originally Posted by XP
If someone is enamored with the BMW marque, wants the panache and prestige or owning a German car with razor sharp handling and feel, and is willing to spend the extra $25,000 for a comparably sized and equipped 5 series- I say: Go for it and enjoy! If you have bought into the marketing hype, then I congratulate their advertising agency.
I have also said before that I have no squeaks or rattles in my TL. It is dead quiet.
I admit that the Acura marque does not have the same wide-eyed status as BMW. But I judge a car on my personal experience and how it meets my needs. Also, how much it delivers for the money spent.
I am not interested in impressing the neighbors. Interestingly, on that topic, the younger neighbors (teens-twenties) fawn all over the TL and practically ignore the 3 series parked next to it. Come to think of it, I think they like the Jeep Wrangler the most.
08-25-2005, 11:26 AM
#82
AZ Community Team
I did compare both a couple weeks ago, quite honestly the 530 was a better car but by very little (I also drove a 2004 545 and 530 last year). With the notible exception of RWD which does give the 530 an advantage in drivetrain, the 530 for it's price disappointed me. The driving experience was great but again not much better dynamics over a TL or a Cadillac STS I also drove.
Two things that seemed poor in material quality to me on the 530 was the trunk hinges (being exposed painted steel tubes, the TL has black plastic covers over it's hinges) and the engine compartment. I thought the quality of engine brackets, fittings, and other small assorted details looked poor for it's price. The iDrive was subjective, I didn't like it for it's GUI and awkward approach to change channels on the audio system.
25 years ago when I first drove a 320i then a 528i I was amazed at BMW's and their M-Motorsport group. The gap between BMW and their competitors was large at that time, as time has progressed technology and markets have seen that gap fall as MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, and now even Jaguar and American manufacturers are more oriented toward performance. The auto market is a moving target but many manufacturers have moved toward sport oriented sedans (witness the available 6MT, 4 piston Brembo brakes, Torsen-like LSD on the current TL). A market that I admit BMW virtually created in the 70's and 80's.
BMW is regardless a very successful auto manufacturer (and a pretty good motorcycle manufacturer as well) but it's become more difficult for them today to find new ways to distingush their products from others. This even holds true for motorsports witness BMW, MB, Honda, Ford, Toyota and Ferrari all competing in F1 engines these days.
Two things that seemed poor in material quality to me on the 530 was the trunk hinges (being exposed painted steel tubes, the TL has black plastic covers over it's hinges) and the engine compartment. I thought the quality of engine brackets, fittings, and other small assorted details looked poor for it's price. The iDrive was subjective, I didn't like it for it's GUI and awkward approach to change channels on the audio system.
25 years ago when I first drove a 320i then a 528i I was amazed at BMW's and their M-Motorsport group. The gap between BMW and their competitors was large at that time, as time has progressed technology and markets have seen that gap fall as MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, and now even Jaguar and American manufacturers are more oriented toward performance. The auto market is a moving target but many manufacturers have moved toward sport oriented sedans (witness the available 6MT, 4 piston Brembo brakes, Torsen-like LSD on the current TL). A market that I admit BMW virtually created in the 70's and 80's.
BMW is regardless a very successful auto manufacturer (and a pretty good motorcycle manufacturer as well) but it's become more difficult for them today to find new ways to distingush their products from others. This even holds true for motorsports witness BMW, MB, Honda, Ford, Toyota and Ferrari all competing in F1 engines these days.
Originally Posted by nikko
You can't compare TL to 5 series, your are trying to compare an entry luxury sport sedan (TL) with a true luxury sport sedan (5 series).
I have a 545i for 3 months now and as a former TL owner and lover I can tell you right here that 5 series in general and 545 in particular is superior to new Acura TL in every single respect. The ride on 5 series is 10 notches above TL. The driving dynamics of 5 series are so perfect that leave you speechless.The cabin is very quiet. There are no rattles or vibrations of any kind. The car is and feels very solid.
On the road is a presence that impose respect and turns heads.
Acura didn't strive to equal 5 series because they wanted to be better for less money? Well they failed big time! The only car that comes close to 5 series is Infiniti G35. The only advantage TL has is the interior but that's about it
Try to be objective and don't try to justify your purchase. Most people think about TL like an improved Accord and nothing else (maybe because TL still shares a lot of parts with Honda Accord?).
It's an absolutely non-sense to state that BMW 3 series and Acura TSX race almost every day and are even...TSX is a very slow whiny dog compared to 3 series...go and check the numbers and you will get it. As a matter a fact my buddy's 2006 330i MT is faster that TL MT and I saw this at drag strip, TL was 0.25 sec. slower than 330i (5.7 sec vs. 5.95 sec).
Lexus, Infiniti and Acura - it'll be a few decades before they have established the long-term traditions of performance and luxury that have made the name "BMW" synonymous with indisputable performance, luxury and quality. Absolutely they are competitive on paper as well as on pavement. But still, at the end of the day, a Lexus is a Toyota, an Infiniti a Nissan, and Acura a Honda. Meanwhile, the three letters "B-M-W" are universally known and respected everywhere in the world.
I have a 545i for 3 months now and as a former TL owner and lover I can tell you right here that 5 series in general and 545 in particular is superior to new Acura TL in every single respect. The ride on 5 series is 10 notches above TL. The driving dynamics of 5 series are so perfect that leave you speechless.The cabin is very quiet. There are no rattles or vibrations of any kind. The car is and feels very solid.
On the road is a presence that impose respect and turns heads.
Acura didn't strive to equal 5 series because they wanted to be better for less money? Well they failed big time! The only car that comes close to 5 series is Infiniti G35. The only advantage TL has is the interior but that's about it
Try to be objective and don't try to justify your purchase. Most people think about TL like an improved Accord and nothing else (maybe because TL still shares a lot of parts with Honda Accord?).
It's an absolutely non-sense to state that BMW 3 series and Acura TSX race almost every day and are even...TSX is a very slow whiny dog compared to 3 series...go and check the numbers and you will get it. As a matter a fact my buddy's 2006 330i MT is faster that TL MT and I saw this at drag strip, TL was 0.25 sec. slower than 330i (5.7 sec vs. 5.95 sec).
Lexus, Infiniti and Acura - it'll be a few decades before they have established the long-term traditions of performance and luxury that have made the name "BMW" synonymous with indisputable performance, luxury and quality. Absolutely they are competitive on paper as well as on pavement. But still, at the end of the day, a Lexus is a Toyota, an Infiniti a Nissan, and Acura a Honda. Meanwhile, the three letters "B-M-W" are universally known and respected everywhere in the world.
08-25-2005, 11:41 AM
#83
Originally Posted by JackSprat01
08-25-2005, 11:58 AM
#84
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by cp3117
Wow....JackSprat....I hope Acura excecutives dont have the same thoughts as you do about the new 3.6l passat. Thats how a car company starts its downfall. The new 3.6l and the design, interior quality etc was all aimed at this high end to compete with the TL, yet having a base model with the new 2.0T (that audi also uses) to take TSX owners away....Many reviews have said the new passat has jumped out of the old accord and camary role.....The TL has always been praise about value and that is what this passat is all about, being on paper and various road tests it exceeds the TL in almost every area. The only thing that has to be seen is reliability.
08-25-2005, 12:47 PM
#85
www.seattlewhips.com
Originally Posted by nikko
You can't compare TL to 5 series, your are trying to compare an entry luxury sport sedan (TL) with a true luxury sport sedan (5 series).
I have a 545i for 3 months now and as a former TL owner and lover I can tell you right here that 5 series in general and 545 in particular is superior to new Acura TL in every single respect. The ride on 5 series is 10 notches above TL. The driving dynamics of 5 series are so perfect that leave you speechless.The cabin is very quiet. There are no rattles or vibrations of any kind. The car is and feels very solid.
On the road is a presence that impose respect and turns heads.
Acura didn't strive to equal 5 series because they wanted to be better for less money? Well they failed big time! The only car that comes close to 5 series is Infiniti G35. The only advantage TL has is the interior but that's about it
Try to be objective and don't try to justify your purchase. Most people think about TL like an improved Accord and nothing else (maybe because TL still shares a lot of parts with Honda Accord?).
It's an absolutely non-sense to state that BMW 3 series and Acura TSX race almost every day and are even...TSX is a very slow whiny dog compared to 3 series...go and check the numbers and you will get it. As a matter a fact my buddy's 2006 330i MT is faster that TL MT and I saw this at drag strip, TL was 0.25 sec. slower than 330i (5.7 sec vs. 5.95 sec).
Lexus, Infiniti and Acura - it'll be a few decades before they have established the long-term traditions of performance and luxury that have made the name "BMW" synonymous with indisputable performance, luxury and quality. Absolutely they are competitive on paper as well as on pavement. But still, at the end of the day, a Lexus is a Toyota, an Infiniti a Nissan, and Acura a Honda. Meanwhile, the three letters "B-M-W" are universally known and respected everywhere in the world.
I have a 545i for 3 months now and as a former TL owner and lover I can tell you right here that 5 series in general and 545 in particular is superior to new Acura TL in every single respect. The ride on 5 series is 10 notches above TL. The driving dynamics of 5 series are so perfect that leave you speechless.The cabin is very quiet. There are no rattles or vibrations of any kind. The car is and feels very solid.
On the road is a presence that impose respect and turns heads.
Acura didn't strive to equal 5 series because they wanted to be better for less money? Well they failed big time! The only car that comes close to 5 series is Infiniti G35. The only advantage TL has is the interior but that's about it
Try to be objective and don't try to justify your purchase. Most people think about TL like an improved Accord and nothing else (maybe because TL still shares a lot of parts with Honda Accord?).
It's an absolutely non-sense to state that BMW 3 series and Acura TSX race almost every day and are even...TSX is a very slow whiny dog compared to 3 series...go and check the numbers and you will get it. As a matter a fact my buddy's 2006 330i MT is faster that TL MT and I saw this at drag strip, TL was 0.25 sec. slower than 330i (5.7 sec vs. 5.95 sec).
Lexus, Infiniti and Acura - it'll be a few decades before they have established the long-term traditions of performance and luxury that have made the name "BMW" synonymous with indisputable performance, luxury and quality. Absolutely they are competitive on paper as well as on pavement. But still, at the end of the day, a Lexus is a Toyota, an Infiniti a Nissan, and Acura a Honda. Meanwhile, the three letters "B-M-W" are universally known and respected everywhere in the world.
NEWS FLASH
If you like the BMW's then go get a f__king bimmer, and stop posting on the TL forums.
If you want to spend 50-60k for a car then go buy the M3 or freaking shell out $100k for the M5.
You guys apsire to so little. Hell, go buy a Bentley, since alot of you are ballin out of control.
The TL is a great great car, and its relatively inexpensive as others have said.
Nikko, ur just a slave of branding... you need to drive a BMW to feel special.
The German's have ALWAYS been more interested in performance and handling. That is their claim to fame. Their attention to other aspects has always been shit. My cousisns 2003 330, looks old inside. even after just 2 years the redish gauges and not-so-special red lighting looks dated. The new5 & 7 series are very nice, indeed. but again... look at the freaking price difference.
For those on this forum that drive a 3 series and thinnk its the best.... remember, the 3 series is the poor man's BMW... its not even about price... that just means you just got ripped for an entry level car. the 330 isn't even the best 3 series, as the M3 is clearly more coveted than a 330.
I would rather have a top of the line Acura then a bottom of the line BMW.
The Japanese have always been more attuned to luxury... compare a 1990 7 seires and a 1990 Lexus LS... assuming that both cars have been kept in pristine condition after 15 years, the LS will still look modern. Thats smart engineering.
True... the low end torque has never been a huge priority b/c their claim to fame has been V4, and only recently (last 5 years) the High output V6. Should it be? IMO, of course.. that would make them a threat all around. but for now All their engines are high end power.
To consistently reiterate the fact that the BMW is more performance oriented is obvious... so stop saying it to sound smart and 'in the know'
You keep talking about how the TL is an Accord... ANY and EVERY car company who has mulitple lines of cars share platforms... it is a business move and a no brainer for these companies to save costs in R&D and production. Don't incinuate that the TL is any lesser b/c it is based off the Accord platform.
BMW just happens to be a standalone line. Kudos to you!
Nikko, as a former TL owner, i would expect you to speak smarter than trying to 'justify' ur purchase... you bought the 545 and not the 530 b/c the 530 sucks ass. I have killed 530's numerous times... good choice. the 545 is faster than the TL... i also could have the TL and possibly buy the G35 coupe for the same price... or even mod my TL to a point where i could smoke you over and over again while still maintaining a level of luxury and comfort that my ass deserves.
Also.. why are you using 0-60 times if ur on the drag strip.. i am assuming that you are speaking of 1/4 mile times. i find ur 5.7 second 0-60 time for the 330 suspicious considering that BMW's specs (from bmwusa.com) for the 2006 330 is 6.1 seconds for the 255HP engine delivering 220lb of torque @ 2750 RPM. a .4 sec difference is impossible... and i highly doubt that ur buddy could beat the times posted by the test drivers for BMW.
So here are my points.
The TL has a better interior than the 330... i think that point has been made in prior posts.
You say the BMW is faster... this is debatable... but only w/ the new 330 since they increased HP to 255, and b/c the car is probably lighte... the older 330's don't even compare... i have killed 330's in my TL 6MT. not even close on the high end.
You say the BMW 3 handles better... this may be true stock vs. stock, but given that BMW probably puts better than average suspension on the 330 from the factory... lets take my "better than average" TL and do the same comparison. Considering i probably still saved more on my TL w/ the mods than the MSRP of an entry level 330.
Thanks for putting up w/ my longwinded entry... the end.
08-25-2005, 01:01 PM
#86
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Originally Posted by Saintor
Naaaah. Actually the old 325i won a comparo over the TL in Car&Driver. Imagine a new 330i...
If I recall correctly...and I may not it's been a while since I read that comparo...the 3 only beat the TL by about 2-3 points....and those points came from the insipid "Gotta have it factor" category, a subjective manipulation of data if there ever was one.
The only reason other than that was their anal insistence on a car having to have RWD to be worthy.
I still say the 3 is a fine automobile.....but when you factor in ALL elements, including bang-for-the-buck...it doesn't outshine the TL.
08-25-2005, 01:12 PM
#87
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Originally Posted by Xpditor
The dimensions of the TL are almost identical to the 5 series.A 2005/2006 5 series, when equipped the same as a TL with Navi/5AT, costs $60,000. And, according to Road & Track in April 2004, the TL is quicker, stops faster from 100, and handles better in the slalom, with stronger hold.
Some people will spend $25,000 for those three letters on the trunk, and a better "feel" when driving.
I am not one of them.
You cannot compare TL and 5 series. Two different class vehicles. But if you go this way, why not to compare TL with Bently: using your loigic they are about same size, etc. I bet TL handles better...
08-25-2005, 01:28 PM
#88
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This is all subjective and NO ONE should get too worked up over it.
I personally checked out the 3 series only because it's similiarly priced. I never buy low models of any brand, so checking out a 530 was out of the question. The 3 series didnt do it for me. Sure it handled a little better than the FWD a-spec, but it failed in every other area. The interior was boring and plain, a BMW trait of course, the styling wasnt as sporty as the A-spec, and the BMW badge was singing, spend 8k more on me for no reason.
The 545 was a nice car, but again the styling is nasty in my opinion and the interior doesnt do it for me. If I were to spend 65k on a 545 I'd just spend 80k on an e55. BMW doesnt make a single car that makes me want to buy it. The new m5 loses to the e55 in my eyes, as does every other basic model. I do have a soft spot for the m3, and look forward to the two door that should come out in a year and a half.
As a side note, no rattles or seat problems, not a problem YET, in the TL.
I can say that if I wanted more than slightly above class performance, the TL wouldnt have been purchased. I bought it because of the styling, adequate speed, and interior amenities. The Vette is for pissing on the BMW owners.
I personally checked out the 3 series only because it's similiarly priced. I never buy low models of any brand, so checking out a 530 was out of the question. The 3 series didnt do it for me. Sure it handled a little better than the FWD a-spec, but it failed in every other area. The interior was boring and plain, a BMW trait of course, the styling wasnt as sporty as the A-spec, and the BMW badge was singing, spend 8k more on me for no reason.
The 545 was a nice car, but again the styling is nasty in my opinion and the interior doesnt do it for me. If I were to spend 65k on a 545 I'd just spend 80k on an e55. BMW doesnt make a single car that makes me want to buy it. The new m5 loses to the e55 in my eyes, as does every other basic model. I do have a soft spot for the m3, and look forward to the two door that should come out in a year and a half.
As a side note, no rattles or seat problems, not a problem YET, in the TL.
I can say that if I wanted more than slightly above class performance, the TL wouldnt have been purchased. I bought it because of the styling, adequate speed, and interior amenities. The Vette is for pissing on the BMW owners.
08-25-2005, 01:43 PM
#89
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by mlionel
You cannot compare TL and 5 series. Two different class vehicles. But if you go this way, why not to compare TL with Bently: using your loigic they are about same size, etc. I bet TL handles better...
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
08-25-2005, 02:29 PM
#90
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Originally Posted by Xpditor
I suggest the main differences are price and snob-appeal.
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
08-25-2005, 03:32 PM
#91
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by ChicagoSteel
The Tl doesnt have more power than the top model 5, sorry.
Of course the 545i and M5 have more cyls and more power.
08-25-2005, 03:33 PM
#92
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Originally Posted by jennarocks
NEWS FLASH
If you like the BMW's then go get a f__king bimmer, and stop posting on the TL forums.
If you want to spend 50-60k for a car then go buy the M3 or freaking shell out $100k for the M5.
You guys apsire to so little. Hell, go buy a Bentley, since alot of you are ballin out of control.
The TL is a great great car, and its relatively inexpensive as others have said.
Nikko, ur just a slave of branding... you need to drive a BMW to feel special.
The German's have ALWAYS been more interested in performance and handling. That is their claim to fame. Their attention to other aspects has always been shit. My cousisns 2003 330, looks old inside. even after just 2 years the redish gauges and not-so-special red lighting looks dated. The new5 & 7 series are very nice, indeed. but again... look at the freaking price difference.
For those on this forum that drive a 3 series and thinnk its the best.... remember, the 3 series is the poor man's BMW... its not even about price... that just means you just got ripped for an entry level car. the 330 isn't even the best 3 series, as the M3 is clearly more coveted than a 330.
I would rather have a top of the line Acura then a bottom of the line BMW.
The Japanese have always been more attuned to luxury... compare a 1990 7 seires and a 1990 Lexus LS... assuming that both cars have been kept in pristine condition after 15 years, the LS will still look modern. Thats smart engineering.
True... the low end torque has never been a huge priority b/c their claim to fame has been V4, and only recently (last 5 years) the High output V6. Should it be? IMO, of course.. that would make them a threat all around. but for now All their engines are high end power.
To consistently reiterate the fact that the BMW is more performance oriented is obvious... so stop saying it to sound smart and 'in the know'
You keep talking about how the TL is an Accord... ANY and EVERY car company who has mulitple lines of cars share platforms... it is a business move and a no brainer for these companies to save costs in R&D and production. Don't incinuate that the TL is any lesser b/c it is based off the Accord platform.
BMW just happens to be a standalone line. Kudos to you!
Nikko, as a former TL owner, i would expect you to speak smarter than trying to 'justify' ur purchase... you bought the 545 and not the 530 b/c the 530 sucks ass. I have killed 530's numerous times... good choice. the 545 is faster than the TL... i also could have the TL and possibly buy the G35 coupe for the same price... or even mod my TL to a point where i could smoke you over and over again while still maintaining a level of luxury and comfort that my ass deserves.
Also.. why are you using 0-60 times if ur on the drag strip.. i am assuming that you are speaking of 1/4 mile times. i find ur 5.7 second 0-60 time for the 330 suspicious considering that BMW's specs (from bmwusa.com) for the 2006 330 is 6.1 seconds for the 255HP engine delivering 220lb of torque @ 2750 RPM. a .4 sec difference is impossible... and i highly doubt that ur buddy could beat the times posted by the test drivers for BMW.
So here are my points.
The TL has a better interior than the 330... i think that point has been made in prior posts.
You say the BMW is faster... this is debatable... but only w/ the new 330 since they increased HP to 255, and b/c the car is probably lighte... the older 330's don't even compare... i have killed 330's in my TL 6MT. not even close on the high end.
You say the BMW 3 handles better... this may be true stock vs. stock, but given that BMW probably puts better than average suspension on the 330 from the factory... lets take my "better than average" TL and do the same comparison. Considering i probably still saved more on my TL w/ the mods than the MSRP of an entry level 330.
Thanks for putting up w/ my longwinded entry... the end.
If you like the BMW's then go get a f__king bimmer, and stop posting on the TL forums.
If you want to spend 50-60k for a car then go buy the M3 or freaking shell out $100k for the M5.
You guys apsire to so little. Hell, go buy a Bentley, since alot of you are ballin out of control.
The TL is a great great car, and its relatively inexpensive as others have said.
Nikko, ur just a slave of branding... you need to drive a BMW to feel special.
The German's have ALWAYS been more interested in performance and handling. That is their claim to fame. Their attention to other aspects has always been shit. My cousisns 2003 330, looks old inside. even after just 2 years the redish gauges and not-so-special red lighting looks dated. The new5 & 7 series are very nice, indeed. but again... look at the freaking price difference.
For those on this forum that drive a 3 series and thinnk its the best.... remember, the 3 series is the poor man's BMW... its not even about price... that just means you just got ripped for an entry level car. the 330 isn't even the best 3 series, as the M3 is clearly more coveted than a 330.
I would rather have a top of the line Acura then a bottom of the line BMW.
The Japanese have always been more attuned to luxury... compare a 1990 7 seires and a 1990 Lexus LS... assuming that both cars have been kept in pristine condition after 15 years, the LS will still look modern. Thats smart engineering.
True... the low end torque has never been a huge priority b/c their claim to fame has been V4, and only recently (last 5 years) the High output V6. Should it be? IMO, of course.. that would make them a threat all around. but for now All their engines are high end power.
To consistently reiterate the fact that the BMW is more performance oriented is obvious... so stop saying it to sound smart and 'in the know'
You keep talking about how the TL is an Accord... ANY and EVERY car company who has mulitple lines of cars share platforms... it is a business move and a no brainer for these companies to save costs in R&D and production. Don't incinuate that the TL is any lesser b/c it is based off the Accord platform.
BMW just happens to be a standalone line. Kudos to you!
Nikko, as a former TL owner, i would expect you to speak smarter than trying to 'justify' ur purchase... you bought the 545 and not the 530 b/c the 530 sucks ass. I have killed 530's numerous times... good choice. the 545 is faster than the TL... i also could have the TL and possibly buy the G35 coupe for the same price... or even mod my TL to a point where i could smoke you over and over again while still maintaining a level of luxury and comfort that my ass deserves.
Also.. why are you using 0-60 times if ur on the drag strip.. i am assuming that you are speaking of 1/4 mile times. i find ur 5.7 second 0-60 time for the 330 suspicious considering that BMW's specs (from bmwusa.com) for the 2006 330 is 6.1 seconds for the 255HP engine delivering 220lb of torque @ 2750 RPM. a .4 sec difference is impossible... and i highly doubt that ur buddy could beat the times posted by the test drivers for BMW.
So here are my points.
The TL has a better interior than the 330... i think that point has been made in prior posts.
You say the BMW is faster... this is debatable... but only w/ the new 330 since they increased HP to 255, and b/c the car is probably lighte... the older 330's don't even compare... i have killed 330's in my TL 6MT. not even close on the high end.
You say the BMW 3 handles better... this may be true stock vs. stock, but given that BMW probably puts better than average suspension on the 330 from the factory... lets take my "better than average" TL and do the same comparison. Considering i probably still saved more on my TL w/ the mods than the MSRP of an entry level 330.
Thanks for putting up w/ my longwinded entry... the end.
Dude, show a bit of respect and don't use this low level language! Is not you deciding if I post or not here!
08-25-2005, 03:34 PM
#93
Sorry TL loses to 545 on most accounts
Originally Posted by Xpditor
I suggest the main differences are price and snob-appeal.
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
1. BMW has more interior space. Was not important to me anyway.
2. Luxury. BMW for sure. TL has nothing that BMW does not. What shocked me was the manual adjusting steering wheel in the TL.
3. BMW is very powerful. TL has no power at low RPM and not much more at higher. Note that that we are talking 325 bhp against 258 bhp. My 2002 TLS felt more powerful than TL.
4. Performance? RWD, active steering and active body roll control. TL has nothing.
5. Value. TL Navi - $500/month. BMW 545, Sport, Prem Sound, Cold Weather, Navi - $720/month. For me $220 a month was in BMW's favor.
6. Gas mileage goes for TL.
7. Audio. I did not really care. Prem Sound in BMW is good enough.
8. TL has touch screen Navi and DVD-A sound. So let's give it to TL.
9. TL looks better. BMW has the blue and white propeller. Let's say they are equal here.
10. Reliability. TL may be better. If tranny issues has been resolved.
11. Operating costs. BMW has free maintenance. So it goes to BMW.
As you can see ALL important qualities: speed, handling, ride are in favor of the 545. So it was all that vs. $220/month. BMW won.
08-25-2005, 03:44 PM
#94
Originally Posted by Xpditor
The dimensions of the TL are almost identical to the 5 series.A 2005/2006 5 series, when equipped the same as a TL with Navi/5AT, costs $60,000. And, according to Road & Track in April 2004, the TL is quicker, stops faster from 100, and handles better in the slalom, with stronger hold.
Some people will spend $25,000 for those three letters on the trunk, and a better "feel" when driving.
I am not one of them.
The 530i with sports package that C&D tested earlier pulled 0.9G on the skidpad. Better than TL.
They were simply choosing a car to fit their result.
08-25-2005, 03:54 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by SergeyM
5 month ago I was car shopping and did compare TL to 545. TL lost on all important accounts:
1. BMW has more interior space. Was not important to me anyway.
2. Luxury. BMW for sure. TL has nothing that BMW does not. What shocked me was the manual adjusting steering wheel in the TL.
3. BMW is very powerful. TL has no power at low RPM and not much more at higher. Note that that we are talking 325 bhp against 258 bhp. My 2002 TLS felt more powerful than TL.
4. Performance? RWD, active steering and active body roll control. TL has nothing.
5. Value. TL Navi - $500/month. BMW 545, Sport, Prem Sound, Cold Weather, Navi - $720/month. For me $220 a month was in BMW's favor.
6. Gas mileage goes for TL.
7. Audio. I did not really care. Prem Sound in BMW is good enough.
8. TL has touch screen Navi and DVD-A sound. So let's give it to TL.
9. TL looks better. BMW has the blue and white propeller. Let's say they are equal here.
10. Reliability. TL may be better. If tranny issues has been resolved.
11. Operating costs. BMW has free maintenance. So it goes to BMW.
As you can see ALL important qualities: speed, handling, ride are in favor of the 545. So it was all that vs. $220/month. BMW won.
1. BMW has more interior space. Was not important to me anyway.
2. Luxury. BMW for sure. TL has nothing that BMW does not. What shocked me was the manual adjusting steering wheel in the TL.
3. BMW is very powerful. TL has no power at low RPM and not much more at higher. Note that that we are talking 325 bhp against 258 bhp. My 2002 TLS felt more powerful than TL.
4. Performance? RWD, active steering and active body roll control. TL has nothing.
5. Value. TL Navi - $500/month. BMW 545, Sport, Prem Sound, Cold Weather, Navi - $720/month. For me $220 a month was in BMW's favor.
6. Gas mileage goes for TL.
7. Audio. I did not really care. Prem Sound in BMW is good enough.
8. TL has touch screen Navi and DVD-A sound. So let's give it to TL.
9. TL looks better. BMW has the blue and white propeller. Let's say they are equal here.
10. Reliability. TL may be better. If tranny issues has been resolved.
11. Operating costs. BMW has free maintenance. So it goes to BMW.
As you can see ALL important qualities: speed, handling, ride are in favor of the 545. So it was all that vs. $220/month. BMW won.
It's not about being subjective here. If you want to compare "FEATURES" it's not about if YOU care or not.
Stereo TL wins.
If they have the same Tech/Lux items, TL wins due to price.
You dont get to pick which sections the BMW wins because it's something YOU dont care about. Stay consistant.
As I see it the BMW wins in the following categories: (545)
interior space
physical performance
recognition
tire width
trunk space
The TL easily wins:
stereo
amenities
pricing
You take what you want. I didnt buy a 5 series because I dont like the styling and couldnt swallow spending 25k more on a car that barely outperformed the TL and only had a few intangibles that the TL didnt.
To each their own.
Wait.... You said operating cost? mwhahahahahaha. Compare a 7 year life span cost of the cars, not a 1 or 3 year. LoL.
08-25-2005, 04:01 PM
#96
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Originally Posted by nikko
Dude, show a bit of respect and don't use this low level language! Is not you deciding if I post or not here!
Some people are getting too worked up over nothing. I say we all just enjoy our TLs, BMWs, Lexus, Daewoos...or whatever car you might be driving...and chll. No need to blow a gasket over which car is better.
I've stated earlier that I think that the 3 and 5 are better cars than the TL (slightly). But is it worth the extra $10 -$25 K that each car costs? If your answer is yes, then you'd be rolling in a BMW. My answer is NO, which is why I own a TL.
08-25-2005, 04:02 PM
#97
Originally Posted by ChicagoSteel
It's not about being subjective here. If you want to compare "FEATURES" it's not about if YOU care or not.
Stereo TL wins.
If they have the same Tech/Lux items, TL wins due to price.
You dont get to pick which sections the BMW wins because it's something YOU dont care about. Stay consistant.
As I see it the BMW wins in the following categories: (545)
interior space
physical performance
recognition
tire width
trunk space
The TL easily wins:
stereo
amenities
pricing
You take what you want. I didnt buy a 5 series because I dont like the styling and couldnt swallow spending 25k more on a car that barely outperformed the TL and only had a few intangibles that the TL didnt.
To each their own.
Wait.... You said operating cost? mwhahahahahaha. Compare a 7 year life span cost of the cars, not a 1 or 3 year. LoL.
Stereo TL wins.
If they have the same Tech/Lux items, TL wins due to price.
You dont get to pick which sections the BMW wins because it's something YOU dont care about. Stay consistant.
As I see it the BMW wins in the following categories: (545)
interior space
physical performance
recognition
tire width
trunk space
The TL easily wins:
stereo
amenities
pricing
You take what you want. I didnt buy a 5 series because I dont like the styling and couldnt swallow spending 25k more on a car that barely outperformed the TL and only had a few intangibles that the TL didnt.
To each their own.
Wait.... You said operating cost? mwhahahahahaha. Compare a 7 year life span cost of the cars, not a 1 or 3 year. LoL.
08-25-2005, 04:07 PM
#98
ppl buy BMW for the badge and think they are getting a luxury car, that's exactly what BMW wants. Why the hell they don't import the 3's with the shitty 2.0L gas/diesel engine? 320? 320d? What about the 1 series with the 1.6L engine? Guess what? Then more ppl could afford it and they are not the luxury brand that Americas think anymore. So they can't rip you off with their 325s and 330s. Ppl buy bimmer but don't want to admit they paid thousands for the badge, instead arguing how much better of a car it is, IT'S NOT! Similar equip'ed 330i vs. TL, a little better for A LOT of more green!
I'd rather have a near top of the line Acura for a lot less.
I'd rather have a near top of the line Acura for a lot less.
08-25-2005, 04:55 PM
#99
VW: The only thing that has to be seen is reliability
You have hit the nail on the head!
day and night
Originally Posted by MR1
And this my friend is the elephant in the room.
You have hit the nail on the head!
day and night
08-25-2005, 04:57 PM
#100
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Originally Posted by SergeyM
Disagree. We are talking cars here not home theater systems. Performance is much more important that sound system. 330lb/f torgues is not an intagible. You feel them all the time.
I clearly didnt buy the TL for 'Performance'. I have a Vette sitting in the garage, when I want to take a turn or go fast that's the car, not a TL or a 545. That is why the 14.0 1/4 of a 545 is worthless to me, as is the 14.7 TL 1/4. I bought the TL because it had all the features of much more expensive cars, better styling (IMO), and as we've seen here, can't easily be outclassed by a 3 series. (And apparently a 5 series based on all the attention they're getting)
08-25-2005, 05:17 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by acura_fantacy
ppl buy BMW for the badge and think they are getting a luxury car, that's exactly what BMW wants. Why the hell they don't import the 3's with the shitty 2.0L gas/diesel engine? 320? 320d? What about the 1 series with the 1.6L engine? Guess what? Then more ppl could afford it and they are not the luxury brand that Americas think anymore. So they can't rip you off with their 325s and 330s. Ppl buy bimmer but don't want to admit they paid thousands for the badge, instead arguing how much better of a car it is, IT'S NOT! Similar equip'ed 330i vs. TL, a little better for A LOT of more green!
I'd rather have a near top of the line Acura for a lot less.
I'd rather have a near top of the line Acura for a lot less.
The 330 and TL are in the same "Upscale Sedan" class. It is fair to compare them with each other, but comparing a TL with a 5-Series is not. The 5er is another league of its own.
In the real world, 10-20hp makes no difference- at the limit handling comparisons makes no difference- 0 to 60 times make no difference- driving to and from work, getting grociers, going out friends is what most people do with thier cars and what matters then are price/value, exterior styling, reliability, interior styling, name chachet, history, brand, gas mileage, etc.
The TL is a better vaule than the 330, the interior and exterior styling is a personal choice (I like the TL interior better than my 330 by the way), reliability is a better on the TL. However, the 330 has a stronger name-chacet, a stronger company history, and is considered a luxury brand along with decent reliability and ex/int styling that appeals to alot of people. Dont fool yourself into beliveing corporate branding doesnt effect you, it effects everyone. Acura started out, just as Lexus did, to be Honda's luxury brand. Lexus succeeced over the years and is on par with the two big boys, MB and BMW, while Acura and Infiniti and Audi are more 'second tier' luxury companies.
That being said, and price/value not being that big of an issue (a $8k increase means roughly $130 extra per month for financing payments), I would definitely pick a 330 over a TL- and that seems to be the case for most people out there. For the value, the TL takes the cake, and it does look pretty good when tastefully modded.
I have put far too many miles on my 330 and it seems like I'm geared for doing the same with the C55, so my plan was to pick up an Accord for daily driving. After looking into the TL, which at invoice price is right around the same as a loaded V6 Accord, I'm going with the TL. Back when I was getting the 330 however, I didn't even consider a TL- it's not the same level to me. The only real competition I think the E46 had was the C-Class, which the E46 blew out of the water (before you say anything, the C55 is a temp car for me until the E90 M3 comes out)
This is my first post on this forum, I dont mean to offend anyone, but this is just what I think.
08-25-2005, 05:41 PM
#102
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Confused..... As you say: The TL is a better value than the 330, styling is a personal choice , you think the interior in the TL is better, and the reliability is better in the TL. Yet, you would take the 330 over the TL for an extra 8k? So I guess you're buying the "name-chacet?"
I think it's funny how certain people see things differently. I didnt buy a 3 series because it's not on the same level. It's a bottom of the line BMW and it feels like it. (Short of the m3.) Around here it's a 16 year old girls car, it's slow, it's not stylish, and the interior is comparable to my first pontiac. (red and boring).
Heck I remember when I was buying the Vette and test drove an SMG m3 and couldnt believe how sweet it was, until I jumped into the 6 speed Vette. (From a pure driver's standpoint.)
I think it's funny how certain people see things differently. I didnt buy a 3 series because it's not on the same level. It's a bottom of the line BMW and it feels like it. (Short of the m3.) Around here it's a 16 year old girls car, it's slow, it's not stylish, and the interior is comparable to my first pontiac. (red and boring).
Heck I remember when I was buying the Vette and test drove an SMG m3 and couldnt believe how sweet it was, until I jumped into the 6 speed Vette. (From a pure driver's standpoint.)
08-25-2005, 06:13 PM
#103
www.seattlewhips.com
Originally Posted by nikko
Dude, show a bit of respect and don't use this low level language! Is not you deciding if I post or not here!
All ur doing is saying 'i have a Bimmer 545, a v8 and its faster and more luxurious than the TL i used to have for $40K more'
Is that really worth saying?
i would take ChicagoSteel's vette anytime for handling and speed.
08-25-2005, 06:32 PM
#104
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i think nayc55 pretty much hit it on the head... the TL is a great car to get u around, and it looks and rides nice while doing it, no one can say with a straight face that the TL is a piece of trash. but u can't say w/ a straight face that the 3-series is a piece of trash either. every logical person here thats arguing for the TL or for the 3-series knows what each car brings to the table. For the money and features, the TL pretty much can't be beat by any car... but from a performance standpoint, u can't honestly believe that a stock TL is a better performing car than the 3-series. There are those here who bought their cars for their families and ride comfort, the features, etc, etc... and also those who bought their cars for the raw power, the handling, etc. It's really a moot point to say an upgraded TL can do this and that but a stock bmw can't.... well im sure an upgraded bmw can do everything the acura can, and much more. and an upgraded TL seems to only put itself somewhat on par w/ a stock bmw. And for the person who called BS on the member who said he was able to get a 5.7 in the 0-60, check out C&D's 0-60 results in unfavorable conditions with the new 3-series... they posted a 5.6. I dont get how some of you can say the TL is a flat out better car, or how u can say the bmw is a flat out better car... both companies shine in their own areas, but you gotta be really bias to say the TL is a better performer, or that the TL sucks simply because it doesnt drive like the bmw.
08-25-2005, 07:17 PM
#105
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Originally Posted by ChicagoSteel
Confused..... As you say: The TL is a better value than the 330, styling is a personal choice , you think the interior in the TL is better, and the reliability is better in the TL. Yet, you would take the 330 over the TL for an extra 8k? So I guess you're buying the "name-chacet?"
I think it's funny how certain people see things differently. I didnt buy a 3 series because it's not on the same level. It's a bottom of the line BMW and it feels like it. (Short of the m3.) Around here it's a 16 year old girls car, it's slow, it's not stylish, and the interior is comparable to my first pontiac. (red and boring).
Heck I remember when I was buying the Vette and test drove an SMG m3 and couldnt believe how sweet it was, until I jumped into the 6 speed Vette. (From a pure driver's standpoint.)
I think it's funny how certain people see things differently. I didnt buy a 3 series because it's not on the same level. It's a bottom of the line BMW and it feels like it. (Short of the m3.) Around here it's a 16 year old girls car, it's slow, it's not stylish, and the interior is comparable to my first pontiac. (red and boring).
Heck I remember when I was buying the Vette and test drove an SMG m3 and couldnt believe how sweet it was, until I jumped into the 6 speed Vette. (From a pure driver's standpoint.)
I personally dont like the styling on the E46 330 sedans, its only the facelifted '04+ coupes which I like. The E90 sedan however, has really grown on me. When I said I would still take a 330 over a TL, I meant the E90 330 with brand name/cachet and styling as a few of the criteria in the comparison.
My top priorites right now for my next purchase are best value, reliability, decent gas mileage, good ratings, stylish- I'm not too concerned with brand-whoring on this one- so here a new TL seems like the best choice.
And you're right, the 3er is the "European Civic" in my area too, but hey I still like it
The SMGII on the M3 is pretty good, especially with Launch Control, but nothing beats a proper manual. Thats one thing I dont like about the C55, or any AMG for that matter, only avail. in auto
08-25-2005, 08:46 PM
#106
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
Originally Posted by NayC55
The name-chacet is what lured me when I was buying the 330, as well as the ConsumerReports ratings, which at the time had the 3er at top. I was lenient on the price for that purchase, and the new 3er coupes now had the peformance package available, so I went with it.
I personally dont like the styling on the E46 330 sedans, its only the facelifted '04+ coupes which I like. The E90 sedan however, has really grown on me. When I said I would still take a 330 over a TL, I meant the E90 330 with brand name/cachet and styling as a few of the criteria in the comparison.
My top priorites right now for my next purchase are best value, reliability, decent gas mileage, good ratings, stylish- I'm not too concerned with brand-whoring on this one- so here a new TL seems like the best choice.
And you're right, the 3er is the "European Civic" in my area too, but hey I still like it
The SMGII on the M3 is pretty good, especially with Launch Control, but nothing beats a proper manual. Thats one thing I dont like about the C55, or any AMG for that matter, only avail. in auto
I personally dont like the styling on the E46 330 sedans, its only the facelifted '04+ coupes which I like. The E90 sedan however, has really grown on me. When I said I would still take a 330 over a TL, I meant the E90 330 with brand name/cachet and styling as a few of the criteria in the comparison.
My top priorites right now for my next purchase are best value, reliability, decent gas mileage, good ratings, stylish- I'm not too concerned with brand-whoring on this one- so here a new TL seems like the best choice.
And you're right, the 3er is the "European Civic" in my area too, but hey I still like it
The SMGII on the M3 is pretty good, especially with Launch Control, but nothing beats a proper manual. Thats one thing I dont like about the C55, or any AMG for that matter, only avail. in auto
Thanks for clearing it up. As long as we understand why we make our decisions it's all good. It all makes sense now.
08-25-2005, 09:00 PM
#108
Originally Posted by crxb
VW: The only thing that has to be seen is reliability
You have hit the nail on the head!
day and night
You have hit the nail on the head!
day and night
Dependability is in question because it's a new design, just like any other manufacture.
The old passat's reliability was very good and was rated very high by most groups, including consumer reports. They even have it on their recommended list of cars to purchase, up there with acura etc. What makes it interesting is that VW has even said that they are planing to make the reliability part even better than the last. (But thats tough for anyone on an introductory year)
08-25-2005, 09:09 PM
#109
Re: BMW 5 violates, savages, abuses (etc.) TL?
Originally Posted by nikko
You can't compare TL to 5 series.
I have a 545i for 3 months now....
On the road is a presence that impose respect and turns heads.
The only advantage TL has is the interior but that's about it. Most people think about TL like an improved Accord and nothing else.
Lexus, Infiniti and Acura - it'll be a few decades before they have established the long-term traditions of performance and luxury that have made the name "BMW" synonymous with indisputable performance, luxury and quality. Absolutely they are competitive on paper as well as on pavement. But still, at the end of the day, a Lexus is a Toyota, an Infiniti a Nissan, and Acura a Honda. Meanwhile, the three letters "B-M-W" are universally known and respected everywhere in the world.
I have a 545i for 3 months now....
On the road is a presence that impose respect and turns heads.
The only advantage TL has is the interior but that's about it. Most people think about TL like an improved Accord and nothing else.
Lexus, Infiniti and Acura - it'll be a few decades before they have established the long-term traditions of performance and luxury that have made the name "BMW" synonymous with indisputable performance, luxury and quality. Absolutely they are competitive on paper as well as on pavement. But still, at the end of the day, a Lexus is a Toyota, an Infiniti a Nissan, and Acura a Honda. Meanwhile, the three letters "B-M-W" are universally known and respected everywhere in the world.
OK, I ought to let this kind of silliness go, but I feel petty tonight. Lemme get this straight: The TL "has the advantage (in) the interior," and is "competitive on paper as well as on pavement." But BMW "turns heads, has an "indisputable name" which is "universally known and respected," and is therefore above comparison.
As a former TL owner, you already know it's cheaper. So, you might be interested to know, is Cialis.
I believe the BMW is clearly a superior over-the-road performer to the TL -- provided, of course, that the road is warm and dry. But consider this: the TL is just as roomy, nicer inside (according to you), nicer outside (according to me), handles much much better in the inclement weather that periodically blesses 2/3 of America, is vastly more reliable, has vastly superior secondary controls (iDrive? No, i don't) -- and costs less by, what, $15,000?
I think the irony of the Bangled styling is the criticism leveled all these years at the Japanese, that they couldn't style a clean car without crudding it up with busy "surface excitement." Think about it: If the current BMW 3,5 or 7 bore the indisuptably, universally known name of "Kia," do you think anybody would say it looked better than the 2006 Hyundai Sonata? Or would they rip it as another clumsy Asian knockoff of BMW? I think the answer is obvious to everyone... else.
08-25-2005, 09:10 PM
#110
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Originally Posted by Xpditor
I suggest the main differences are price and snob-appeal.
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
If you compare size, they are almost the same.
If you compare standard luxury, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare power, the TL has more.
If you compare performance, the TL wins.
If you compare value, the TL wins hands down.
If you compare gas mileage, the TL wins.
If you compare standard audio, the TL wins by a mile.
If you compare "gadgets", the TL is way ahead.
If you compare looks (subjective), I prefer the styling of the TL.
If you compare reliability, the TL wins.
If you compare operating costs, it's TL again.
Hmm. Now that I think about it.... You're right. You cannot compare (favorably) a 5 series with a TL. It is unfair to the 5 series.
TL BMW
Size: TL - Equal? BMW - Who cares!
Luxury level: TL - Questionable, giving leather quality, rattles, creaks. In fact TL is in NEAR LUXURY class. BMW - Class: Luxury
Power: TL - 270BHP @ 6200 rpm, 238 lbs-ft @ 5000 rpm
BMW - 325BHP @ 6100 rpm, 330lb-ft @ 3600 rpm
Performance: TL - 5.7 sec (0-60), assumed, BMW - 5.7 sec (0-60), published
Value: TL - A+, point for owner to brag about BMW - Who cares!
Gas mileage: TL - A+, point for owner to brag about. BMW - Who cares!
Audio: TL - A+, point for owner to brag about, BMW - Who cares!
Gadgets: TL - A+, point for owner to brag about, BMW - Who cares!
Reliability: TL - Please read numerous posts, BMW - Who cares!
Operating cost: TL - Good, BMW - Who cares!
BMW 5 series owners are not concerned about these as much as TL owners.
Hmm… You are right, you had to think really hard to come to conclusion that you have.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my TL. But I am sure that if money would be no object, I would have made different choice. People that bought 5 series do not discuss on forums if their cars can stand against our TLs. They just enjoy their cars and don’t care about any comparison.
08-25-2005, 09:36 PM
#111
Above the battle?
Originally Posted by mlionel
People that bought 5 series do not discuss on forums if their cars can stand against our TLs. They just enjoy their cars and don’t care about any comparison.
08-25-2005, 10:33 PM
#112
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Originally Posted by NayC55
1. I have a '04 BMW 330Ci, a '05 MB C55, and I'm considering purchasing a new TL over a new Accord. The TL is very well rated and would make a good daily driver imo.
2. The 330 and TL are in the same "Upscale Sedan" class. It is fair to compare them with each other, but comparing a TL with a 5-Series is not. The 5er is another league of its own.
3. In the real world, 10-20hp makes no difference- at the limit handling comparisons makes no difference- 0 to 60 times make no difference- driving to and from work, getting grociers, going out friends is what most people do with thier cars and what matters then are price/value, exterior styling, reliability, interior styling, name chachet, history, brand, gas mileage, etc.
4. The TL is a better vaule than the 330, the interior and exterior styling is a personal choice (I like the TL interior better than my 330 by the way), reliability is a better on the TL. However, the 330 has a stronger name-chacet, a stronger company history, and is considered a luxury brand along with decent reliability and ex/int styling that appeals to alot of people. Dont fool yourself into beliveing corporate branding doesnt effect you, it effects everyone. Acura started out, just as Lexus did, to be Honda's luxury brand. Lexus succeeced over the years and is on par with the two big boys, MB and BMW, while Acura and Infiniti and Audi are more 'second tier' luxury companies.
5. That being said, and price/value not being that big of an issue (a $8k increase means roughly $130 extra per month for financing payments), I would definitely pick a 330 over a TL- and that seems to be the case for most people out there. For the value, the TL takes the cake, and it does look pretty good when tastefully modded.
6. I have put far too many miles on my 330 and it seems like I'm geared for doing the same with the C55, so my plan was to pick up an Accord for daily driving. After looking into the TL, which at invoice price is right around the same as a loaded V6 Accord, I'm going with the TL. Back when I was getting the 330 however, I didn't even consider a TL- it's not the same level to me. The only real competition I think the E46 had was the C-Class, which the E46 blew out of the water (before you say anything, the C55 is a temp car for me until the E90 M3 comes out)
7. This is my first post on this forum, I dont mean to offend anyone, but this is just what I think.
2. The 330 and TL are in the same "Upscale Sedan" class. It is fair to compare them with each other, but comparing a TL with a 5-Series is not. The 5er is another league of its own.
3. In the real world, 10-20hp makes no difference- at the limit handling comparisons makes no difference- 0 to 60 times make no difference- driving to and from work, getting grociers, going out friends is what most people do with thier cars and what matters then are price/value, exterior styling, reliability, interior styling, name chachet, history, brand, gas mileage, etc.
4. The TL is a better vaule than the 330, the interior and exterior styling is a personal choice (I like the TL interior better than my 330 by the way), reliability is a better on the TL. However, the 330 has a stronger name-chacet, a stronger company history, and is considered a luxury brand along with decent reliability and ex/int styling that appeals to alot of people. Dont fool yourself into beliveing corporate branding doesnt effect you, it effects everyone. Acura started out, just as Lexus did, to be Honda's luxury brand. Lexus succeeced over the years and is on par with the two big boys, MB and BMW, while Acura and Infiniti and Audi are more 'second tier' luxury companies.
5. That being said, and price/value not being that big of an issue (a $8k increase means roughly $130 extra per month for financing payments), I would definitely pick a 330 over a TL- and that seems to be the case for most people out there. For the value, the TL takes the cake, and it does look pretty good when tastefully modded.
6. I have put far too many miles on my 330 and it seems like I'm geared for doing the same with the C55, so my plan was to pick up an Accord for daily driving. After looking into the TL, which at invoice price is right around the same as a loaded V6 Accord, I'm going with the TL. Back when I was getting the 330 however, I didn't even consider a TL- it's not the same level to me. The only real competition I think the E46 had was the C-Class, which the E46 blew out of the water (before you say anything, the C55 is a temp car for me until the E90 M3 comes out)
7. This is my first post on this forum, I dont mean to offend anyone, but this is just what I think.
2. True.
3. True. The weakest link between a car's performance and the car performing is the driver. On top of that, there is no way that anyone on public streets can achieve more than 50 or 60 % of a car's performance capabilities, or talk about it's feeling and compare it to other cars. Even at a track, in a controlled environment, and with the propper instruction, is difficult to propperly enjoy those capabilities.
4. True.
5. I don't have the extra $200 a month, so I bougth the TL.
6. C55 temp car ...
7. Great post.
Welcome to Acurazine.
08-25-2005, 11:47 PM
#113
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this is a pretty funny thread; i could not resist sharing some thoughts: I would never compare a 3 series to a tl due to difference in seating capacity; my car accomodates 5 normal size adults with ease; 3 series would fit 4 adults rather tight.
I was in a friend's 05 530i last week; the interior was lame; the leather felt like a football; the satellite radio was a separate unit, and the exterior styling is not for me; the car does move and handle well as expected but the tl handles and breaks as well except for during first gear; that is when my car feels most sluggish.
the tl and now infiniti's m control 5 the sports sedan marketplace along with bmw 5 series; i guess bmw owner's do not play well with others--cry babies.
btw, i installed comptech rear sway bar; car corners flatter and feels more balanced.
i have owned my 04 6sp with nav for one year. except for a dead battery when bought there are no i have had any other problems.
I was in a friend's 05 530i last week; the interior was lame; the leather felt like a football; the satellite radio was a separate unit, and the exterior styling is not for me; the car does move and handle well as expected but the tl handles and breaks as well except for during first gear; that is when my car feels most sluggish.
the tl and now infiniti's m control 5 the sports sedan marketplace along with bmw 5 series; i guess bmw owner's do not play well with others--cry babies.
btw, i installed comptech rear sway bar; car corners flatter and feels more balanced.
i have owned my 04 6sp with nav for one year. except for a dead battery when bought there are no i have had any other problems.
08-26-2005, 10:00 AM
#114
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Originally Posted by MichiganRich
Your choice of terms (raping and molesting) is creepy. Once, making a salacious point. Twice, subconscious tendencies are at work...
08-26-2005, 11:45 AM
#115
The use of terms like "rape"/"molest" when talking about fricken TL's is a testament to the individual's maturity level ... i wouldn't read into it anymore than has already been done so. Perhaps the moderators can do something about allowing that type of language in the titles of threads - it makes it much more public.
08-26-2005, 05:53 PM
#117
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I have been thinking for long time, what is the standard to classify vehicle class? Is it price of the car? Is it car exterior size? Is it engine size and output rating? I still don't know, may be all of the above or at least some of the above. TL is a special class, performance-wise it is on par with 330i as well as 530i. Size-wise it is sure 5-series class. But price-wise it is 325i class, considering the features you need to add to 325i to do head-to-head competitons with TL. So TL is hanging between three or at least two and a half classes(if 325i is half class below 330i, then 325i is 1/2 class lower than 330i and 530i is one class above 330i)? This situation also applies to Infiniti G35 sedan, although it is slightly smaller than TL and 530i size-wise. So I guess you could call TL and G35 3-series competitons, but not direct competitions like C-class and A4 and IS. Now you could even call ES330 a TL competitor because they are close in size, price, and engine size. They are different in driving dynamics and sportiness level, but these are some difficult things to measure. But one thing is sure, FWD or RWD or AWD should have nothing to do with class, they are just different routes the automakers take to put down the power onto the road.
P.S.: Actually I don't know what makes BMW think 530i is worth that much more money than those Japanese compeitors, especially TL and G35 sedan. These two have put 530i into shame because they provide everything a well-loaded 530i provides for much less money, and one thing TL/G35 lack may be prestige or that "I'm richer" feel.
P.S.: Actually I don't know what makes BMW think 530i is worth that much more money than those Japanese compeitors, especially TL and G35 sedan. These two have put 530i into shame because they provide everything a well-loaded 530i provides for much less money, and one thing TL/G35 lack may be prestige or that "I'm richer" feel.
08-26-2005, 06:29 PM
#118
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I am trading in my TSX after owning it for one year for a 330i and after test driving that car, all I can say is "wow". The car is amazingly fun to drive, it is so solid, and the sound of the engine and exhaust give me a tingling feeling all over. The TSX is boring and feels like a huge car, especially when trying to manuever a U-turn with it's 40ft turning radius (which btw is just as good as an H2 or an Escalade). The TSX and the TL are nice cars, especially for the price, but for a true driving enthusiast, the choice is clear---BMW all the way.
08-26-2005, 06:38 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by SilverCL225hp
I have been thinking for long time, what is the standard to classify vehicle class? Is it price of the car? Is it car exterior size? Is it engine size and output rating? I still don't know, may be all of the above or at least some of the above. TL is a special class, performance-wise it is on par with 330i as well as 530i. Size-wise it is sure 5-series class. But price-wise it is 325i class, considering the features you need to add to 325i to do head-to-head competitons with TL. So TL is hanging between three or at least two and a half classes(if 325i is half class below 330i, then 325i is 1/2 class lower than 330i and 530i is one class above 330i)? This situation also applies to Infiniti G35 sedan, although it is slightly smaller than TL and 530i size-wise. So I guess you could call TL and G35 3-series competitons, but not direct competitions like C-class and A4 and IS. Now you could even call ES330 a TL competitor because they are close in size, price, and engine size. They are different in driving dynamics and sportiness level, but these are some difficult things to measure. But one thing is sure, FWD or RWD or AWD should have nothing to do with class, they are just different routes the automakers take to put down the power onto the road.
P.S.: Actually I don't know what makes BMW think 530i is worth that much more money than those Japanese compeitors, especially TL and G35 sedan. These two have put 530i into shame because they provide everything a well-loaded 530i provides for much less money, and one thing TL/G35 lack may be prestige or that "I'm richer" feel.
P.S.: Actually I don't know what makes BMW think 530i is worth that much more money than those Japanese compeitors, especially TL and G35 sedan. These two have put 530i into shame because they provide everything a well-loaded 530i provides for much less money, and one thing TL/G35 lack may be prestige or that "I'm richer" feel.
Nicely put….Let’s see if we can add a new player to the mix. What about the 2006 MB E350?
08-26-2005, 07:03 PM
#120
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by PeterUbers
The use of terms like "rape"/"molest" when talking about fricken TL's is a testament to the individual's maturity level ... i wouldn't read into it anymore than has already been done so. Perhaps the moderators can do something about allowing that type of language in the titles of threads - it makes it much more public.
Where we draw the line is at personal attacks, name calling, vile language. In borderline cases, we err on the side of freedom of expression.
Experience has shown us that members will handle these matters among themselves. The writer has gotten your feedback and I am sure will adjust his choice of words.
