TireSmoke

I love reading these threads about CAIs and exhausts and people saying well Ricers-R-Us says their CAI gives me 395hp and Rice-a-rific, Inc says their cat back will give me 962 hp so I'll have a 1300hp TL in no time.

I was watching an episode of some Spike TV show where they were dropping some ricers car onto a dyno -- IIRC, it was a Prelude. He had a ridiculous amount of $$$$ invested in parts (for some reason, $80k sticks in my head but that can't be right). They asked him what kind of HP he was hoping to get, and then they strapped it up. It turned a very small amount over stock and the kid was visibly devistated.

Jumping from a VR6 Jetta to an Integra GS-R to a 5.7L V8 LS1, I've had occasion to investigate these things. I understand that people what a "sleeper" or they like spending $8k on a used Civic and then look to add performance bit by bit as their wallet allows... but seriously, you're not going to drop any reasonably amount of $$$ into a little FWD I4 and turn it into the sickest thing on the road.

Stuff comes from the factory the way it does for a reason... and that reason is USUALLY a combo of a few factors: (1) cost, (2) reliability, (3) legal restrictions, and (4) consumer demand (performance, style, etc). The factory balances all four of those factors and tries to churn out the best product they can. If any of those factors gets out of line with the others, you're gonna have a failure of a product.

So... a Civic is going to come from the factory with the same considerations as a TL as a Ferrari... it all depends on the target market. People who buy a Ferrari have the money to car less about cost and reliability and more about performance and style. People who buy an Altima are going to care more about the former than the latter. There is no "magic" answer for a vastly undervalued car out there because the world of economics doesn't work that way. Honda, GM, Ford, Toyota, et al are smart -- they don't base car prices on what it actually costs to build a car. They base it on what they think they can sell a car for.

Let's look at it this way... ABC company want to build the new Widgetmobile. They get together and start doing some research. What do people want? What do people need? What can people afford? What will Big Brother let them build? Then they come up with some designs that seem feasible. After all that, MAYBE a car comes out of it... the NEW WIDGETMOBILE!

The Widgetmobile doesn't have CAI because it's too noisy for the average person. It doesn't have a free flowing exhaust for the same reason. It's got catalytic converters because Uncle Sam says you have to. It doesn't have a supercharger because they can't justify the cost in reliability compared to the added performance. At least... that's part of the story. But the bottom line is that if the CAI REALLY added 15-20 hp at the wheels, I think they would probably say, "Hey... a 30% boost in horsepower at the expense of a little noise and $5 worth of aluminum? That sounds like a winning formula to me!" And they would slap that baby on there in a heart beat.

Marketing folks LOVE numbers. Why? Because no one questions numbers. They are what they are. "They said it makes 20hp so it makes 20hp." And they aren't necessarily lying either. Read the fine print... different dynos? different days? different altitude or temp or humidity or fuel or is the car more broken in or are you running a fan or is the hood up? You'd be surprised how much just a slight change in tire wear (and therefore weight and diameter) would make a significant difference in HP ratings. And what other mods are on the car? An exhaust might get you 5hp on a stock car but it might get you 10 hp on a car with headers -- or maybe it'll only get you 3hp on a car with headers... who knows.

So what the heck is the point of all this? This is the way I see it... if you want a high performance car, BUY ONE from the factory. Don't buy a $15k Civic and expect to drop $35k into it and have it be able to beat a $50k Corvette in performance, handling, and reliability. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. But it's not going to be as easy as bolting on intakes and exhausts and big fin spoilers and nitrous, etc, etc, etc. You're gonna have to rip that engine apart and rebuild it from the ground up. Suspension is going to have to change. Brakes, chassis, etc, etc.... and when all is said and done, you still have a Civic. It might be the coolest Civic this side of Japan and you might have the local Chicas all up on your jock (hey... we can dream can't we ) but don't expect to walk into a car dealer and get any sort of trade in value for it -- WHY??? Because the average person doesn't want a 12 second, $50k Civic. If they did, Honda would be building them.

Buy your car. Love it. Wax it. Mod it. Do whatever you want to it... after all, it's yours. But don't fool yourself into think you're gonna make it something it's not. Because Honda knows better than you do.

Flame away.

chipplaysdrums

Awesome post dude! I happened to come upon a Civic the other day that was all tricked out, muffler loud as hell and everything. I immediately thought...this guy wants to race. I dusted his ass, and then thought about all the time, effort, and money he probably put in his car to make it "look and sound cool" when it's really just plain ole car underneath. I guess that's why we both bought TLs, and I don't plan on changing mine a bit.

-=¤willhaven¤=-

exactly. you cant polish a turd.

PoochaKannInc

That is the bottom line. Modifying the car can mean different things to different people and can be done for different reasons.

For my TL, I want a stiffer suspension, more road feel, and some more torque down low. I would eventually like to choose the mods that will get me to this level. You are absolutely correct that the average person might not. This car (just as almost every car out there) is built to the specs of what the company deems will "sell".

Another reason to mod, might not be to "improve" as much as it is to be "different." Some people belong to the view that a car is transportation, but others believe that it is an expression of their desires, of their personality, of their likes and dislikes. This is the reason you will see people with:
1. Bumper stickers or other vinyl sticky contraptions.
2. Aftermarket wheels.
3. Cleared headlights.
4. Engine mods.
5. etc. etc.

I don't agree with everyone's expression of what they think the "best" look is for their car. But I understand why they would.

Good post TireSmoke.

jonrey

Great post TireSmoke. Very well said! I got an old accord myself and wanted to start modifying it so it would go faster and looks more sportier. I came to my senses and traded my accord for a TL. I can't be any happier.

ITL

LMFAO when I saw this...

Aegir

You really need to get out more...

Tom The Cop

This Is One Of The Best Threads I Have Read In A Long Time. I Read The Last Thread On Cai Systems Which Turned Out To Really Be A Thread On Mustangs And Almost Threw Up.

Honda Has Done There Homework Before Building This Car. They Deserve All The Props... We As Owners Will Not Find Much More Power Or Torque To Squeeze Out Of This Magnificant Car.

I Believe My Cars Are Part Of Who I Am And They Reflect That By The Window Tint, Wings, Wheels Or What Ever I Decide Looks Great And Im Happy With When I Walk Away From My Car And Turn Around To Look At It And Say Good Bye Until I Return. Thats When You Know You Love Your Car When You Cant Wait To Get Back In And Drive It. My Wife Says Its A Sickness And I Should Seek Treatment But She Is One Who Looks As A Car As A Piece Of Equipment To Get Her From The Mall And Back. Thats Why She Drives A 1.8 Jetta Gl Its Only A Car And I Drive A 99 Corvette And My Tl. I Havent Driven My Vette Since I Bought My Tl . Thinking Of Selling It Dont Need It With The Tl In The Garage.

Bravo Tiresmoke Well Done

Casper42

Tom, you need to chill, your gonna wear that SHIFT key out in no time.

Tom The Cop

Sorry for the cap lock on

varanelli

Yeah, that's pretty amazing, Tom. I've never seen anyone capitalize the first letter of every word. Doesn't that take a lot of energy and concentration?

Casper42

Apparently If You Leave Caps Lock On, It Only Leaves The First Letter Capped.

^^^ That was types with Caps Lock ON

whiteTL

Yes, you do need to get out more. Who actually sits there and just thinks of stuff to stay like what you just did. People buy cheap civics to fix it up because they like fixing up cars. To tell you the truth if everyone had $60k don't you think they would go out and buy a M3 or something. People start off with cheap cars because thats all they could afford. People like to fix up the little things. Some people could be hardcore and spend $20k on it, but it is all worth it to them. There are alot of idiots who buy $55K M3's and still put another $10k on it just for some factory kit or carbon fiber crap. It's kinda lame for you to sit there just because you have a TL and say this to people who can't afford to pay $400-500 a month for a nice car. But they could afford a small payment, and if they have extra cash get a intake or exhaust. It's kinda shallow for you to think like that.

Ken1997TL

2nd generation CRX + B18 + Turbo = Own3d



I could do all that for under 6000 bucks

I chose not to because I need something more practical and mature.

neuronbob

This was a great post. You can do anything to your car that makes you happy, but don't expect greatness other than in your eyes.

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

I live near a naval air station (NAS Patuxent River, MD) and I see souped up Civics, Integras, and old Accords all the time. Heck, I laugh out loud when I do see them. Most of the time the drivers are people (most guys, some girls) who are enlisted in the Navy around here. I understand that they don't make a heck of a lot of money, so they buy a set of wheels that will fill their transportation needs. I find it absolutely hilarious when they add modifications to their car to make it sound and look like a Corvette (or $50,000 - $60,000 car).

I can understand if you're putting on a spoiler that would cover half the state of Rhode Island, an exhaust system, headers, supercharger, turbocharger, new wheels, whatever....if you like how the car looks and sounds. But if you take these things and expect the car to handle like a Porsche or Ferrari, then you're grossly mistaken.

Case in point (you TL owners will love this story): I was stopped at a red light when a 2004 TL pulled up beside me on the left side. A couple of moments later this kid (and he was a kid, not older than 20) comes screetching to a stop on my right side. The car is blue (it was a late model Civic), the front spoiler body kit is painted in a primer color (ahahaha), the wheels are chromed out, the exhaust could wake John Wayne, and the spoiler was bolted on to the trunk.

I have a 2004 Honda Accord EX V6 Sedan. I'm 25 and work for the Department of Defense. I know the car's limitations, strengths, and weaknesses. It's not bad, but I certainly am not trying to turn it into a Ferrari. I rolled down the windows and asked the TL owner if he would like to race to the next light. I told him I just wanted to see what kind of acceleration the TL had. He said "Sure. I was almost going to buy the Accord EX V6, but decided I wanted something a little bit more sporty". I can handle that. I turn my head and asked the kid if he wanted to race us. He looks at me through his sunglasses and said, "Sure, and prepare to have your asses handed to you." I asked him what he had underneath the hood, and he didn't say anything except, "You're about to find out."

Well we sat there a couple more seconds while I rolled up the windows, and then the light turned green.

The TL immediately pulled out in front of me (he also had an automatic) while the Civic owner saw my University of Florida license plate holder. Lol. The front end of my Accord was just barely touching the ass-end of the TL for about 4-5 seconds until it started to just edge away from me. We then had to put on our brakes because the light was red ahead.

The Civic owner had to get behind me because his lane ended. Sad.

I rolled down my window and told the guy, "If I had $7,000 - $8,000 more, I would have bought that car. I love the audio system and I love the way it looks." He agreed, and then said, "If I would have known that the TL and Accord are such similar cars as far as acceleration goes, I would have bought the Accord and went on a cruise with my wife with the money I saved." We both laughed, I told him to have a nice day, he said the same, and we went on our merry way.

I know the TL handles much better as far as handling and all that stuff is concerned, but I just didn't have the extra $7,000 more for the TL. I wish I did though.

The Civic owner did not want to pass me slowly, so he sped up and passed me like the race was still on. I still don't know what he had under the hood, but it was either stock or it didn't compare to both our cars.

I just found it funny that this guy in a Civic thought he could keep up with our cars. How sad.

TireSmoke

First off... I don't think the comment about "getting out more" was directed toward me.

Secondly... I didn't "sit there and think of stuff to stay" -- you look at any $300 car with $20k of wheels and spoilers and it shoud just come to you like a light bulb going on. If it doesn't, that's cool... like I said, it's your car and you're free to do whatever you want with it.

If you READ my post, you'll see that I specifically said that I understand that some people need to do something like "spending $8k on a used Civic and then look to add performance bit by bit as their wallet allows".

My point is not that modded cars are crap or that if you don't have lots of money to buy a TL that you're lame. Hell, I know that we're all lucky to be able to afford a $30k+ car. My point was two-fold...

(1) It is what it is... a Civic is a Civic is a Civic regardless of if you have $50k in bolt ons.
(2) Don't expect to get a $10k car and do $1k of bolt ons and get it to shave 3 seconds off the quarter mile or pull 2g's on the skidpad.

I know that my TL isn't a Ferrari. I know that my girl's Ford ZX2 isn't an NSX. It's not about money, it's about knowing what you have and being happy with your choices. If it was all about money and performance... my $9k bike will smoke 99.9999999% of what's on the road on 4 wheels. Who cares.

I didn't buy a TL because it was faster than my last car... I traded in a 12 second car on the TL. I bought the TL because it's a beauty and it's fairly sporty and feels great to drive. I'll add some mods because I want to change a few things. But I know that it's still a TL and always will be.

Zeuser

As a guy who owns a tricked out del sol and a TL I view things a little differently. My TL is my regular day to day transportation. I like the power and the comfort.

But when it comes to going nuts, i'll take my little del sol anyday. It's not all that powerful in a straight line but it handles incredibly well. Especially with the race tires on.

But most of the kids driving soupped up civics can't afford 2 cars. And then it's just a question of economics. They can't afford the initial cost of a higher end sports car, say a 350Z, nor the insurance rates that go along with owning such a car when under 20 yrs old. So they get the cheap and inexpensive civic, put in as much money as it would cost to get the previously mentioned 250Z and once the motor is all soupped up, the little civic can be just as fast and handle just as well as the 250Z. IF IT'S DONE RIGHT!

Problem is, most of these kids have no clue on how to do it right and many get side tracked with useless garbage that doesn't do crap (doesn't even look good).

I know of a few Integras in my area that will easily stomp all over my TL. They can out accelerate, out brake and out corner my TL. The price of all the modifications plus the car is almost as much as the price of a new TL but they will beat the TL. The reason? These guys know what they're doing!

There are a few dead giveaways though. The "flashier" the little civic looks (body kits, wings, lights, fancy paint), the slower these things usually are. These are the ricers that have no clue what they're doing. On the other hand, the guys that really know what they're doing usually spend so much time playing with the engine that they don't even bother with the flash crap.

I've personally witnessed a Ferrari F355 (some rich kid with daddy's car) having his ass handed to him in a best of 3 street race by an Integra LS with one huge ass Turbo on it. Sure the guy had dumped $20K into the engine alone but beating a Ferrari with an Integra is priceless (like those mastercard commercials).

Point is: There are many different types of people driving these things. The ricers are the dumbest and easiest to spot. The true "performance enthusiast" are harder to spot but they could mean a lot of trouble for much faster all stock (factory) high end sport cars. So you can't just put all these "modified civics" in the same group of "ricers".

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Zueser,
I never saw it that way. You're right. I just think it's funny when a flashy, souped-up Civic (what you would call a "ricer" I guess) tries to race some other guy in a Cobra (or some sports car like that) just because the guy in the Civic put in a turbo kit, exhaust or something like that.

I'm not saying that I have a great car, but I have yet to be out-accelerated from a Civic or older (95 and below) Accord from the time I bought the car new.

I liked that little anecdote about the Ferrari. I would have shaved an "FSU" sign in the back of my head to see the look on that guy's face after the race.

Yauser

I say let people do what they want with their money and let them be. Not everyone uses their car as a performance machine. Who knows, maybe blinky lights and fart cans gets those kids laid and they don't care if they can outrace a tricycle? I personally love to just plain drive and rippin' down the roads at the wee hours of the morning to get to the hospital is enough to get me out of bed.

What I truly cannot stand though is two things: the terms "bling" and "ricer". Don't use the word "bling" unless you're a black gangster (not wannabe gangster) that has either actually shot somebody or dealt crack. It also pains me to no end to hear the word rice used in a derogatory fashion. I find rice both delicious and nutritious and recommend it as part of a healthy asian diet.

Anywho, I'm off to go pick up some cheese or buy some paper clips so I get the excuse to go fire up the new TL. I'm out of town right now so pics on Tuesday.

TheOne305

:sqntfawk: :sqntfawk: :sqntfawk:

TheOne305

well you really dont know what your talking about especially when its comes to cost.I have a friend right now with the civic hatch and allmotor mods(fully built) and spend just less then 15k with car and will smoke a c5 vette any day,and it is simple to make alot of power in a civic for example use a Type R motor and tranny stock and your basic boltons and 75 shot of nitrious and tuning and it'll hit high 12's mid to high 13's with out nos on street tires imagine with slicks.reason for civic's being so popular is that you can make them look good(if you know what your doing) you have almost endless motor configurations and you can find the parts almost anywhere.It's also a pride when you have a 4 banger blowing the doors of a V8 when they think there the king.Ya most people in V8's race a civic that basicly stock with little mods and think those cars arnt that fast.But find one with a motor swap and a turbo.V8's beware.And for your knowledge if i had 35k to spend on a car it would be on a civic and i would smoke a viper,vette MAN! most any street car out there :sqntfawk: and it will look CLEAN!!

NightRider

I must agreee with Zeuser, there is a difference between idiot kid ricers (although I'm a kid) and true tuned cars. I have seen plenty of ricer cars with huge spoilers, fart can exhausts, primer paint jobs and techno music. THe TL has educated plenty of these on what luxurious performance is about. I also had one episode where a "tuned" car that looked like a ricer absolutely detroyed me racing from a stop light. Because of the 5AT slow start, I mashed the pedal and by the time I got to 20mph he was about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. Mind you my TL is automatic as this Integra GS was a stick. The GS he had is stock 140HP. I looked this up online for the GS, but I signalled him to pull over at the next light and we talked for a couple minutes to find out more. His name was Va and his family had come over from Vietnam, nice guy. He had the ricer full body kit look, but he also had a T3 turbo, N-ox, headers and several other mods he told me that I can't remember. He kept a dyno sheet WITH HIM, so obviously he was driving around to show people up. The dyno showed him pushing a little over 320HP AT THE WHEELS! God knows how much at the crank. Although my car could not ge on the same level performance wise, he still commented the TL was a very nice car. Don't discount everyone...

NightRider

Turbos are awesome, I wish someone would be able tp put a turbo on the TL...

EDIT: Did not mean to offend anyone with the previous post. When I say ricers I refer to the look of the car, not the people driving them!

TLud

This is a great thread, and I think most people have made some very good points.

It can be tough being a car nut and not having much money to spend on your ride. I definitely understand about upgrading your car over time to get the level of performance or the appearance that you want in the end. I think it's important to remember that for some people, it's about the performance, while for others, it's about how their car looks. Yes, a car may look ridiculous to 99% of the people that see it, but it's not about their tastes, it's about the owner's.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the actual modding experience. It's a great way to pass free time. You learn a lot and you can make a lot of friends doing it, good friends who share a common interest. I think the social and experience side of modding is a VERY important reason why many do it. I personally am not real big on flashy or major mods for the most part, but I love working with my friends on our cars over the weekend.

The thing that I find sad though is when I see a car that is maybe worth $200 with wheels on it that cost literally 10 times the value of the car. At that point, you just need to get some common sense and your financial priorities straight.

whitetiger5

What a kick a$$ thread! I used to own a civic and I had all these mods as well, new motor, new suspension, new everything, but not for everyone else, for me, as a hobby, and after the end of it all, I still had just a civic. it was MINE though everything Tiresmoke has said is so so true!

iNteGraz92

at first i thought you were making fun of ricers, but then i realized you were just making fun of everyone who mods civics. correct? cuz that's what it looks like to me. why do people mod them? because it is their hobby and they think it's fun and a challenge to make something slow fast, and handle good. what's wrong with that?
also, what's all this gibberish about trade in value?

dutty-07

i know im not the only one who caught this, "turbo & headers?" but watever i kno u dont remember exactly what he said but that just bothered me.

anywayz. im only 20 and i own a 95 integra and i just bought an 03 TLS. my integra has smoked the shit out of my TLS, however that point that a civic/integra can easily out handle, brake, perform a more expensive car has already been made (but it can actually be done for A LOT cheaper) the reason that i bought the integra initially was because it was all i can afford, but it became a hobby for me. i love building the motor and working on the car and its way easier to work on than the TLS. i just got the TL because its more luxury and still pretty sporty. My integra looks clean as hell and i love it. And thats all that really matters, ITS TIGHT FOR ME and thats all im really concerned about. And as far as trade in value goes, u dont get shit for any mods that u do to any car so w/e

geekybiker

My last car (c5 corvette) made 18hp more at the wheels with an intake change on the dyno. And no that's not uncommon. However there is alot more at work here than $5 to add hp. Car makers spend alot of money on reducing NVH. This is especially true on cars like the TL. Its not a question of car you make HP for cheap, but also how the customer will respond to it. I know you covered that a bit, but they arent doing the CAI for cost reasons, but for NVH and consumer acceptance. Some minor boost is normal though. Maybe 5hp on the small i-4 engines you mostly referr to.

The argument I always get from people who mod civics etc is "For the same money I could beat your car" Well maybe. Assuming you actually know what you're doing you'll end up with a very fast car that is no longer comfortable or practical as a daily driver. Stripped interior, excessively high spring rates, etc, etc. Plus the fact that such a car has practically no resale value while the higher end car that performs equally "for the same money" retains it's value.

I've been down that road. I had a subaru RS at one point that had over $10k of mods on it. None of it cosmetic. It was a fun enough car. Ran mid 13's at the strip. But I had to part it out to sell it. Bought a used corvette when I sold it. For less money it ran high 12's low 13's handled better, rode better, and got alot more compliments.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

<<---Proud owner of a modded out TL Ricer!

Ah....I say do what makes ya happy! Wasted money....yep.....but its the exprience to me. I am having a lot of fun and thats worth all that money to me for sure. I would do it again in a heartbeat.....and have. Its kind of part of who I am...I buy something...spend a whole lot of money on it....play around with it...get tired of it...and move onto the next. Although I must say...this is the first I have spent this much money on a car....lol. That just goes with the age/available income. But yes....anyone that thinks they are gonna take a $36,000 car....toss $20,000 in mods and parts in it and get some type of return on that investment either is WAY off kilter....or is willing to wait for the right buyer/sucker willing to pay for it. Deduct milage, wear and tear, ect. from the base model...and thats about what you are gonna get....no matter what you put on/into it. Thats just the way it is. Unless you have a Lingenfelter Vette or something.....and that only adds so much due to the reputation of the tuner.

black label

In many respects I agree with you...however...
I have a friend who is a tech. He has a 95 civic cx teal green with Si wheels. Other than the wheels and a larger muffler, the car looks stock. Under the hood he has a H22a as well as a JDM accord type R transmission (with limited slip). Attached to that motor is a Turbo the size of Rhode Island running about 13psi for strre and 25psi for track. In track trim he is putting 527hp to the wheels with 367 lbs/ft of torque.

The car is faster than it should be and will blow the doors off a unsuspecting vette or viper if they make the mistake of getting involved. My favorite part of the car is tha fact that is is hideous (from the outside), teal green factory rims, nothing special no spoiler no 18"rims no bling what so ever. The car is all go with no show and the mods only ran him about 15K.

Bob289

Well I didnt read the whole thread being is sotra long but here is my 2 cents.

I have the same feeling when people put outrageus amouts of money and get nothing. I LMAO. Basicly some jackass was watching fast and the furious and belive 80k worth of stickers makes your ride faster. On the other hand I dont agree on your views on the whole " moding a civic ". I just use the Civic as an example. My views on moding is that you as the buyer get what you can afford ie Civic. After a while, as you save more money you contuine to buy parts piece by piece to add on to your car as you choose too. So maybe at the end of everthing you spend a total of 35K or so after buying parts over a few years time span. To most foks its about moding the car and see the new results. After moding people tend to sell them and start from scrach. As most moders/ tuners says after you call your project done its time to move on to another project. I call it an lifestyle more than anything. So your post sorta hit and missed IMO. Its unfair to call an Civic owner that has put X amount of money into his car not smart and not following what the true intent of the Civic was. If eveyone one had 50k in the bank then everyone would get an Corvett. Others only can buy the 15k used Civic and wait a few years with time and more money to get the performance like an Corvett type car ie: better, quicker, faster not nessery like the Corvett.

jimmyl729

I don't think anyone is trying to bash modders, but merely stating a fact that arrogant immature modders, who would point at your face and laugh "My modded cheaper car would smoke yours", are disliked. It's all about the attitude.

I have a stock and I have nothing against modding. I'd only play along the racing game if it was some car of similar class or price value, and the sole purpose is the fun, not to show who drives better or whos car is nicer. Of course, if some idiot driver with kia or saturn ion cuts me off blindy and dangerously, I'd push my TL to get back at him (not in a dangerous way of course).

TheAcAvenger

Nice thread. I understand exactly what you're saying. But I must add that my 00 Lude with around 10 grand in it ran a 13.4... There's a big difference between throwing money in your car and wanting it to go fast, and seriously doing everything the RIGHT way in making it a true masterwerk of self expression and performance.

Pika817

You Sir, are my hero.