So guys.. how do you guys who drove older MTs drive the 6MT TL? Now that the ECU holds revs for better upshifts....

Do you clutch in go into next high gear let out clutch and then gas or gas as you let out the clutch like how you would on the older cars that dont so the rev matching.
And do you feel that one way is smoother than the other? or the same?

 

You can let clutch then gas? I drive my 6MT like any other manual car.

 

he's talking about pre-synchro manuals where you had to gas to spin up the gears so you could fit them together when shifting...

 

No gas required for upshifting, it's pretty good at even matching revs - so:

1. Clutch in
2. shift
3. clutch out
4. gas

Never experienced an older car where gas was required while clutching during upshift, thouch I've heard stories.

I'll match revs on downshifts, but that's a whole different animal.

 

Hold a clutch in for another second to match revs.

 

Foot up at the same time, depress the clutch. Shift into next higher gear, then clutch comes out while adding throttle. Done right, it's seemless and transparent to the driver, passengers, and car.

 

Yes, my only problem is I cant tell what the motor is doing, with the radio on, I cant hear or feel anything. I like to scan the gauges when driving, not stare at the tach....

Brett

 

7k miles and have about 150k miles driving other sticks - and I still seem to jerk like mad between 1st-2nd-3rd!! If I have clients in the car and think about what I'm doing, it's smoother, but still not as smooth as I was in other cars. Maybe I'm just getting old...

 

yeah i have notice that to, but i was thinking it was caused by the car being drive by wire and not really a cable system just my

 

yeah thats wat am getting too... kinda annoys me... but other than that its a great car

 

I'm thinking about putting an intake on, SOLELY for the purpose of hearing what the rev's are doing. lol.

 

Um....I click up?

Gotta say...this is one where us Automatic guys are laughing....

gotta give us one anyway?

 

I find that I DO use the tach when starting off sometimes when I have the sound system up a bit. Other than that, it's one of the best I've had.. once you get used to the more quiet engine.

 

Yeah, you're doing something wrong (don't fret.. this is not a flame).

My guess is that you are either getting into the next higher gear and the clutch is coming out too soon while the RPMs are still falling from the previous gear OR maybe you are either adding too much throttle or no throttle at all when the clutch engages.

I have found that I can shift my TL (both upshift and downshift) so smoothly that passengers do not even realize they are in a car with a manual transmission (one once questioned this in a previous car I owned). This is not to say that I am some kind of super shifter, but rather it's a result of a nicely matched transmission-to-engine-tune gearbox.

Keep in mind, we DO NOT have a close ratio transmission, contrary to Acura's marketing ploy. No where near one, really. The manual transmission's ratios are;

1st - 3.933
2nd - 2.478
3rd - 1.700
4th - 1.250
5th - 0.975
6th - 0.770
final drive ratio = 3.285

The automatic transmission is much closer in its ratios than the manual AND it has a MUCH lower final drive at 4.428 vs our manual at 3.285

 

I dont know... i drove my friends 06 tl with 1000 miles more than mine and when i shift in his car i dont feel that little jerk i get when driving mine.. maybe am doing something unconsciously while driving his car cause its not mine... >.> ahh

 

My guess is that you are engaging the clutch too fast - before the rev match occurs.

See similar topic here.

See post 15, and an interesting test I did in post 30.

I just tell myself to just shift a little slower (actually just engage the clutch later - until the rev match happens) than in my other MT cars in the past, then I am smooth as silk.

I also assume because of the rev matching, there is no need for double clutching or blipping throttle on upshift. Just let the computer match the revs and engage clutch, and then gas. I'll let SouthernBoy be the final say on this.

 

Under normal conditions, you should never have to rev-match or double clutch during an upshift because the RPMs are coming down. Say you're traveling 25 MPH when your shift to 3rd comes up and your engines turning 3500 RPM. Now you shift into 3rd, your speed drops off to 24, and your RPMs fall to, say, around 2700. You're right where you need to be for 3rd gear (these are not the exact RPM figures but y'all get the picture).

It has been my experience with my TL that when I am shifting a lot faster, the RPMs tend to drop more quickly, so I suspect the ECU "sees" what you're doing and compensates.

 

I guess am can be engaging the clutch too fast.. maybe i'll go out and do lots of fast shifting to see if the ECU learns

 

Same here. I apparently can not get the timing down for the 1-2 shift.

 

Try using more gas and feathering the the clutch a little more.

 

I have only put about 150 miles on my tl but it bothers me a little that I can get smoother shifts from my 99 firebird with a big cam and a heavy duty ram clutch.
I guess that I will have to drive it some more and see if I get better at it.
I seems like it would benefit the shifts if it had a heavier flywheel. I know it wouldn't rev up as quick but the engine wouldn't be as easily bogged down...

 

Feathering the clutch is another term for riding the clutch.. try not to "learn" this habit. Better to perfect your shifting technique.

 

I am good except when I am trying to take off fast. If I take my time, I can do it real smooth, but when taking off briskly, the throttle comes off (heads bounce forward), and the shift into the next gear is not smooth and the rev's are off, another head bounce....
I dont drive the car enough, the wife drives it all week, and I get a few drives in on the weekend.
I also tend to not be over sensitive to the shift quality, I tend to be rough with cars and bikes because I dont care, I like to enjoy the drive rather then worry about every little thing, I tend to drift around within my lane, and not be smooth shifting, while the wife MUST be dead center at all times, spot on the speed limit, smooth shifting, etc.
And its stressfull for her, she does not LOVE to drive, and even though I drive all week in work, I like to drive.

Can anyone shift the car REAL smooth when taking off briskly?
You have to come off the gas, shift, get back on the gas, and slowly reducing the throttle takes to much time for going fast.

I think if you can shift the TL well, you can shift anything well.

Brett

 

Without doing this don't expect to be smooth. It's not like I drive around with my foot on the clutch. This technique has worked well for me over the years and I've always been able to get very good wear on previous clutches, so I'm not to concerned with this poor advice.

Without driving with me how can it be constrewed as a poor habbit. It's not like I'm slipping the clutch all the way up to 4k, but for that instant right be for it grabs and makes the difference between a smooth transission or tossing your passengers around like an old worn out wooden roller coaster.

I do agree that if you are trying to accelerate quickly this techniqe is a bad idea and you will certainly smell it if riding the clutch too much, but I don't that problem.

Anyways back to the original topic, if you have to ask how to shift, maybe you should have bought an AT.

 

You think its poor advice, likely only because you dont know what you are doing, but I bet you ride with southernboy and you would learn what good shifting is all about. You likely do it because its easy, while southernboy can do it the right way and just as smooth as you (or better) without all the clutch wear.

If you ever read what southernboy posts about shifting, you would know better,
I would have to practice for years and years to get to his point.

At least I admit I am doing it wrong, and suck at shifting, and can (sometimes) make it smooth by abusing the clutch.

A little humility and open mindedness is a good way to be.
I know there is someone out there that can do anything I do well better.

Brett

 

More than one way to skin a cat.

If I can get 80-100k+ out of a clutch I really don't think I have a problem with abuse. I've never had a glazing problem or any type of premature wear in any of my cars, so I'm not sure what kind of abuse you think I'm doing to the clutch. I've been driving manuals off and on for 25 years so I think I've got it down fairly well. I'm not saying I'm the best, but I certainly do all right.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with a term called speed shifting, but that is all I'm promoting.

I've had several SCCA driving instructors ride along and critique my driving skills and never once did that come up, but hey, thanks for your blind critique.

Good luck practicing your shifting skills. Maybe next time you should select an automatic.

 

Thanks for the kind words, Brett. You'd have thought I was pissing in his beer when all I was really trying to do was offer a friendly suggestion. But it's his car and he's entitled to do as he sees fit with it.

As for feathering the clutch, I don't do this and my shifts are as smooth as butter. I will certainly agree that cars (transmisisons) have their own little nuances and can take some getting use to. But I have found my TL to be close to ideal in this department for its class of car.

Our friend mentioned the term "speed shifting". This is nothing more than normal shifting.. only it's done VERY quickly. And it can be hard on the drive train, synchronizers, gears, and shifter. In the 60's when I had my 396 Chevelle, I was able to speed shift that M21 Muncie (with the stock Inland Steel shifter) in roughly 1/10th of a second.

Oh well, can't please them all.

 

Thanks Southernboy - I'll print this out and take it with me! So difficult when you're used to a certain car responding one way for SO many thousands of miles, then you have to train yourself to do it differently (or properly if new car is less forgiving) when you switch cars!

For racing in straight line - is the upshift the same process only much faster?

Still trying to avoid bouncing off rev limiter too - this thing spools up so much faster than a pushrod V8!!!


Thanks again!

 

Southerboy, i have a few questions:

It's weird, sometimes when I shift, from 1st - 2nd it's seemless, but other times, it's a little bit jerky. When you say foot up at the same time, do you mean the same time you're depressing the clutch? (i.e. driving normally --> take foot off throttle right as you're taking your foot off, depress the clutch --> shift into next gear --> release clutch while adding throttle).

So when you shift, say from 1st --> 2nd, is this what you do? (i'm going to put it in the situation of how i normally drive): in 1st gear up to 15-20 mph --> release throttle, depress clutch --> shift into 2nd (at this point, RPM is dropping from about 3000 rpm), hold the clutch until RPM stabalize around 2000 rpm --> release clutch while adding throttle.
B/c normally, when i'm shifting into 2nd, i don't hold the clutch until the RPM drops down to 2000 rpms. usually, i just shift into 2nd, then release the clutch while adding throttle. Sometimes the RPMs drop quickly, and sometimes it doesn't.
Just asking for a little input from who i consider, a "MT driving wizard" hahah.

 

Give me a break fellas like you don't give it any gas while your letting out the clutch? For God sakes I know I don't have to glaze and burn up my clutch to go through the gears.

After reading the whole thread even SB advocates the same thing

"clutch comes out while adding throttle. Done right, it's seemless and transparent to the driver, passengers, and car"

Geez

Sorry for the term that I used of feathering. To me it meant the same as Rev Matching.

 

To me, speed shifting is holding the throttle wide open till red line, pulling in the clutch (with throttle wide open) shiting up and dumping the clutch out.
I do that on the bike all the time, although its very fast.
A clutch is much easier to work with a hand then a leg...

I hate it when the old English gear box does not co operate and I get neutral.

Brett

 

Your first paragraph.. yep, I agree. Going from one car to another where there is a good deal of difference in a number of things with the transmission, engine, and shifter can be a real learning experience at first. I had to get used to the TL being so quiet.. I stalled it a few times in the early days of ownership. I had Magnaflow 14829's on my Altima SE, so I could hear the engine well.

You asked, "For racing in straight line - is the upshift the same process only much faster?" I'm not sure of your question here.. could you be a little more specific, please?

Lastly, it depends upon the V8. My TL won't crank Rs anywhere near as quickly as my '66 396 Chevelle did.. or even my '88 Mustang LX 302 CID. But for a small V6 pulling around a 3500 pound car, it does pretty darned good in my opinion.

 

Yep. Example: Your ready to upshift, so you lift your foot up from the throttle and at the same time you depress the clutch. Once the pressure plate has released pressure from the clutch disk, move the shifter into the next higher gear then release the clutch while adding throttle. You don't need to keep the clutch depressed until the RPMs drop to some point to get a smooth shift because unless you're shifting faster than normal, when you are ready to release the clutch, engine speed and wheel speed with have been matched.. it's a timing thing, really.

What I generally do is let the synchros dictate my shifting. What I mean by this is when I move the shifter into the next higher gear, I don't use much pressure. Because of this, less pressure is applied to the synchronizers, but the transition into the next gear will really feel smooth and when your clutch comes out, your RPMs will have been matched.. again timing.

I'm no MT driving wizard.. nice words, but I just love to drive and try to prefect it with each car I own. I had mentioned earlier that the TL is one of the best cars I've ever owned for shifting smoothness and fluidness. Granted, at first, it feels a little different because the clutch on the TL has a short take-up and the point from no engagement to enough engagement to move the car is really short and tight. This can cause the driver to stall, bog, buck, or over-rev the car at first until he gets used to it. Just takes a little work, that's all.

 

Ok.. a different definition of feathering for us. To me feathering a clutch is allowing partial engagement without unecessarily high RPMs to move the car.

Upshifting is far more natural to most people than downshifting because you don't need to double clutch (rev-match) for upshifts. But you do for downshifts.

 

Terminologies.. the bane of understanding, for sure.

Basically there are three methods of shifting when racing.. as in drag racing.

1. Speed shifting. This is just shifting as you would normally, only you do it VERY fast. You use the clutch, remove your foot from the throttle and get back into the gas after the shift.

2. Power shifting. This method is just like speed shifting EXCEPT for one thing. You do not take your foot out of the throttle during shifts. You stay on the gas the entire race after launch, but you do use your clutch when shifting.

3. Bang shifting. The method is just like power shifting EXCEPT for one thing. You do not use your clutch.

 

In one of my earlier responses to this thread, I mentioned that with my '66 396 Chevelle, I could speed shift in roughly 1/10th of a second with that car. I had the M21 Muncie close ratio box and I kept the stock Inland Steel shifter instead of pulling it out in favor of the Hurst Competition 4 Plus unit. I could shift the Inland Steel shifter much better that the Hurst product.

Anyway, I never used a stop watch to check my shifts, but I did use something else. From time to time, a bunch of us (I was in a car club back then) would go to a shopping center lot on a Sunday when they were closed and play a little game. What we would do is come out of the hole hard to deliberately smoke the tires all the way through first gear. This would result in around 90 feet of rubber with my Mickey Thompson 10" steet slicks. Then we would hit second gear.. which resulted in another 15 to 20 feet of rubber.

The idea of this little game was to see who could shift the fastest and we knew be measuring the distance between the burns from first and second gear. The lack of rubber between these burns was when the shifting occurred. I usually could stay between 3 and 4 feet. Now at 30 MPH, a car travels 44 feet a second which is appoximately how fast I was going when I shifted (generally between 25 and 30 MPH). You do the math.

There was one other guy there who had a 1965 442 who could really shift fast and he and I used to trade wins.

 

Okay I'm pretty new at this, I have an AT TL, however I'm learning how to drive a MT on my friends RSX. I understand how to drive it however I am not very good at it yet, not too smooth. Can you explain what you need to do for downshifting? What do you mean by double clutch?

 

I don't exactly understand double clutching. When I downshift, I go in with clutch shift down a gear, rev-match, and then release clutch. Is this downshifting? Or is it clutch in, neutral, clutch out, rev-match, clutch in, shift to lower gear, and then clutch out? I'm so confused

 

I answered your PM and you're very close in your second assessment here. Basically what you want to do is match the engine speed to the wheel speed that will exist once the clutch is fully engaged after your downshift. You do this by blipping the throttle to rev the engine up as you perform the downshift so that as the RPMs are falling back (but still higher than they were in the higher gear) your clutch comes out and the downshift is smooth and seemless with virtually no wear and certainly no slipping or riding the clutch.

 

To bmui1561 and TL CHROMETIDE;

Here's a link to some writings I did and have posted a number of times on this site. They're a collection of writings I had submitted on another site a few years ago. Go to post #8 and if you have questions, let me know.


https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=downshifting