vlo421

Drinking orange juice after you brush your teeth feels more natural than this. After 10 years of driving stick and kind of hating the clutch on these TLs (had this for 4 months), I figure it might be best to look up some tips on how to drive manual to see if I'm up to par considering the only person that taught me was my mom for all of 30 minutes in the span of 3 weeks.

I'm happy to learn that I do everything right according to what most people here say and southernboy's do's and don'ts, except for double clutching (always rev matched to downshift). I've been doing this for a few days now starting from 6 to 5, then trying to work my way down;3 to 2 has a lot less room for error. Whether or not this is worth it, it's kind of fun to learn a new way to drive, but if I can't be much quicker/smoother about this, I may not use this in the long run. For everyone that's worked or working on this, what's your experience like? Any advice?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Practice. dont need a heavy tap. just a slight tap just enough to raise the RPM's
Usually, I can get it. but sometimes I do fuck up.


I agree with you, this is one of the hardest cars to learn on.

jwr0ng626

iTrader: (1)

how high are u revving it up before letting off the clutch wen downshifting?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

somecars are not the best to learn on...


but for the OP, don't worry about stalling, cause you can just restart it if needed (i occasionally stall, being lazy at times )

anthracite_ftw

I've been using proper manual techniques (rev-matching, not riding the clutch, not rushing the shifter into gears) since I started driving. Double-clutching, however, has evaded me until recently. I've watched youtube videos and attempted to teach myself countless times, but it just felt so unnatural I would always become frustrated and give up.

Now I've owned my TL since this summer, and I suspect the previous owner had some less than perfect shifting habits. The 3rd gear synchros were replaced under the TSB shortly before I bought the car at 50k miles, but 1st and 2nd both feel somewhat worn.

A few weeks ago we had a cold snap here (+/- 0 degrees) and I discovered that downshifting into 1st and 2nd, even at extremely low speeds, was damn near impossible. So out of necessity I taught myself to double-clutch, and picked it up very quickly this time. Two days later I was double-clutching every downshift, and a week later it was second nature. Now it's just as easy as a regular rev-match.
I guess my point here is: keep at it, but it does speed the learning process if you physically can't downshift without a double-clutch.

Also, I disagree with people saying we have a hard car to learn this technique on. Yes, our clutch does make it tricky to get off the line smoothly. If you can already drive the car smoothly without double clutching though, I think the combination of short clutch travel and slow-falling RPM's make it much easier to complete a double-clutched shift.

vlo421

If I just rev match, I'll do it to the speed it needs to be at, but with double clutching I'll try to rev it just bit higher than I normally would for the lower gear to give some extra time unless it's already over 3k rpm. By that point, the car should help rev match and hold the RPMs a little longer than normally which helps a lot with 3 to 2. At least I think that's how that works...

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

It's weird cause double clutching came a lot more natural to me than rev-matching.
I found that, on metric-gauges, every 10km/h equates to roughly 1,000 extra RPM. For example say I'm in gear 3 at 40km/h at 2,200RPMs. To downshift to gear 2, 40km/h would need about 3,200RPMs.
Tapping the accelerator 1,000 RPMs is pretty easy... but gets a little more tricky if you're jumping it from say 6 to 3.

6 MT

As far as I know, double-clutching is unnecessary with modern transmissions, since the synchros do that for you. Synchro-less transmissions required you double clutch on the downshift in order to get the input and output shafts rotating similarly.

DeathMetal

iTrader: (2)

It just takes some time to learn on this car, I think all of us 6MT owners have our personal gripes on the clutch.

FWIW, there's a few mods you can do to help with the clutch feel, at the least:
(1) Remove the check valve from the slave cylinder (this makes a HUGE difference!!!!)
(2) Shifter Bushings
(3) Shifter Base Bushings
(4) Short Throw Shifter
(5) Weighted Shift knob

These will GREATLY improve the shifting.

SouthernBoy

It is true that you don't need to double clutch your downshifts with any fully synchronized manual transmission. But then again, you also don't need to use the brakes when waiting on a hill. You can just hold the car with the clutch.

That sounds silly, doesn't it? But a heck of a lot of drivers do just that... you see them doing this most every day so it must be Ok.... right?


Folks, I've written this so many times, but here it is once more. You do not need to or want to double clutch upshifts UNLESS your shift rhythm has been interrupted and engine speed has dropped below where it needs to be for the next chosen gear. Example: if during the upshift, a car pulls out ahead of you and you hesitate during your shift. Then you may want to double clutch before completing the shift as your engine speed would have dropped too much for a smooth shift.

As for downshifting, this is where you want to double clutch. Rev-matching is better than what most do which is to;

o Remove their foot from the throttle.
o Depress the clutch and make the downshift.
o Slowly start releasing the clutch.

You do NOT want to downshift in this manner. Re-matching will save significant (read that is one heck of a lot) of unnecessary wear on your clutch components (pressure plate, friction disk, and flywheel). But rev-matching does nothing to help reduce synchronizer wear. This is where double clutching completes the picture. It not only does what rev-matching does for the clutch but it carries this a step further by significantly (once again as in one heck of a lot) reducing synchronzier wear as well.

People will tell you it makes no difference because modern cars with manuals all have synchronized transmissions. But consider this. The 3G TL has had a rash of problems with its 3rd gear synchronizer set. So do you think that just maybe if you had double clutched your downshifts from day one, you may not be in danger of these problems? Well, my '04 manual TL has over 81,000 miles on it and not one problem of any kind whatsoever with the tranny. And I have been double clutching my downshifts and practicing what I preach longer than most people on this site have been alive.

The bottom line is this. It's your car and you have every right to operate your manual transmission as you see fit. Whether or not that includes rev-matching or double clutching is entirely up to you. All I am offering is information that if practiced and adhered to, will prolong your components most likely longer than you will own your car. That's it. It's your decision as to whether or not you want to do this. I find the TL to have a superb clutch feel and action for double clutching and shifting in general. The shifter throw is the right shortness for the clutch's travel and more importantly, take-up, and the take-up is just what I would dial in were I designing it myself for this car.


BTW, synchronized manual transmissions have been around since 1929 so they're not exactly something new in the picture.

winkyyy

Reading this thread makes me really want a 6MT. I'm jealous of you guys.

6 MT

Good call. Thanks!

nfnsquared

Not arguing for or against, but I've never double clutched while downshifting. My 6MT is still running strong at 108K.

vlo421

I don't doubt that the car will last long and strong if I keep on rev matching, but despite the clutch, I love this car and it's going to stay with me for a long time so I decided to work on this technique. Maybe it's not necessary, but if it becomes second nature, I'll have a lot more to gain...so why not? It's definitely a smoother transaction now after a few days of practice, but I still need to prepare in advance for it.

I'm kind of just used to the clutch now so I'm not sure if I'll remove the delay valve yet until I do some more homework on it.

Now I just wish I didn't sell my old car before I tried learning these techniques. Next on my list to try is heel/toe. I can't even imagine a heel/toe while double clutching. Is that even possible?!!

nivekov

i just practice manual techniques for the fun and originality of it haha.

SouthernBoy

Absolutely and this is what occurs during a properly executed heel and toe shift. However, I have never mastered this technique myself either and do not expect I ever will because for me, there is no reason to do this.

SmileyOr

Next thing you know, you'll be heel-n-toeing!






I don't think I ever owned a car that allowed me to heel and toe. It was always rotating the ball of my foot from gas to brake and back as needed.

SouthernBoy

I will admit that I have tried it a few times in other cars, but it does take a certain touch to avoid getting onto the brakes too hard. I have ridden with some people who heel and toe very well, but since I don't road race, I don't see where it would benefit me. (Ok, ok, I just don't want to learn... now it's out).

VGT

Huge Facepalm.

Your transmission has synchros, double clutching is unnecessary. Rev Matching on a downshift is common sense, and blipping the throttle during the gear change is *not* double clutching. Just watch F&F?

DigitalEmpire22

Don't be jealous... your car rev matches for you!
I have missed shifting ever since I got my TL-S, Oh well will have to swap in a 6 speed later on .

SouthernBoy

You're missing a step. You blip the throttle while pausing in the neutral gate and at the same time you do this you release the clutch some or all to engage the transmission input shaft. Rev-matching does not do this; double clutching does.

All cars with manual transmissions sold for common use by consumers in this country have synchromesh transmissions. And lastly, I have never said that double clutching during a downshift is necessary with these transmissions. Only that it will significantly increase synchronizer life by reducing wear. Whether or not you or anyone else chooses to do this makes no difference to me. I know what it does, what is taking place in there, and how to stretch component life. I could care less if anyone else does this... I only offer information in the event they might decide to learn this technique.

chay823

I love Southern Boy's knowledge about driving our 6MT. He was actually nice enough to call me when I first got my car to help me understand why it was that I was jerking and bucking like a fool when shifting from 1st to 2nd gear...now with practicing his tips I no longer have that problem and I can really feel the smoothness of my downshifts even with my throws and how easily the shifter moves into gear when I double clutch...so doing it that way is how I'm gonna drive mine.

vlo421

Isn't the idea that you are still rev matching, but only that you're now starting this as you're passing neutral with clutch out and then quickly shift and engage the lower gear at the correct RPM before it drops? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what my impression of double clutching is.

Haven't watch F&F for years, but I did just watch Top Gun again.

SouthernBoy

I do remember speaking with you over the phone about the problem you were having, and I am pleased to see that you took the effort to learn what you needed to do to correct this. You know, from time to time I do run across people who take issue with what I am describing and a few actually argue that none of this is necessary.

Well of course it isn't necessary. But the way I look at it is this. If I can prolong the life of my clutch and my synchronizers by practicing a technique that will do this, I'd be a fool not to do it... in my opinion. And especially when we see how many folks who have these transmissions in their cars and have had problems with the 3rd gear synchronizer set, not to mention the fact that Honda/Acura saw fit to issue a TSB on this, one might think that learning a technique that will go a long way in preventing any of these problems is a good thing.

SouthernBoy

Not quite. The steps employed when double clutching for a downshift are as follows (example is a downshift from 4th to 3rd gear):

• Remove your foot from the throttle as you fully disengage (depress) your clutch.
• Begin your shift into 3rd gear.
• When you enter the neutral gate, pause and release your clutch (some or all) while at the same time blipping your throttle.
• Fully disengage your clutch again and complete the shift into 3rd gear.
• Release your clutch.

Notice the difference between rev-matching and double clutching. When you rev-match, you blip the throttle while making the shift. This reduces clutch friction surface wear. Double clutching adds the extra step of engaging the clutch some or all WHEN you do the blip.

What you are attempting to do when you blip the throttle is to raise engine speed enough so that when it starts back down again and reaches the point where it should be for 3rd gear relative to road speed, you clutch comes out and you feel nothing.

If you have done this correctly, you will not feel the downshift at all. It will be a smooth transition into 3rd gear with no lurching or jerking as you release the clutch once in 3rd. A passenger would not even be aware of the gear change save for an increase in engine sounds.

SouthernBoy

BTW, what's a "Huge Facepalm"? Is that the same thing as a hard slap? If so, here's a crushed nose.

akertulis

i dont double-clutch i just down shift to rev match and my car is running great still at 112k, how do you remove the check valve on the slave cylinder?

vlo421

Sorry for any confusion. So as I'm shifting from say 4 to 3, I let go of throttle, clutch in, shift to neutral.

I now blip (rev match) the throttle to the appropriate speed while it's in neutral at the same time I'm releasing the clutch, then quickly clutch in, shift to 3 and release clutch.

I thought I'm supposed to rev match as I'm double clutching in neutral? I try to get it exact of where it should before I start to clutch in and shift to engage the lower gear.

Well it seems quite smooth now, almost a little smoother than when I was just rev matching if I get it dead on, but then again no one could tell either way if I was just rev matching alone.

SouthernBoy

If I were to break the steps down a little further, they would look like this.

• Let up completely on the throttle (remove foot).
• Fully disengage the clutch (depress pedal to the floor).
• Begin the shift to 3rd gear.
• Pause in the neutral gate (or we can call it just neutral if you wish).
• Blip the throttle while at the same time, engaging the clutch some or all.
• Fully disengage the clutch again.
• Complete the shift to 3rd gear.
• Release the clutch.

When you wrote this,

"I now blip (rev match) the throttle to the appropriate speed while it's in neutral at the same time I'm releasing the clutch, then quickly clutch in, shift to 3 and release clutch."

You essentially did what I just described above.

nfnsquared

Have to disagree with you on this one. Acura has acknowledged it's a faulty part in the TSB and has spent tens of thousands of dollars on a voluntary recall to replace the faulty parts:

"PROBABLE CAUSE
The transmission has a faulty 3rd gear synchronizer or
3-4 shift sleeve."

vlo421

Thanks Southernboy! Just making sure we're on the same page.

Here's the thread on removing the delay (check) valve akertulis. I haven't gotten around to reading the whole thing, but there are some pros/cons it seems

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=delay+valve

SouthernBoy

Oh I am not arguing that one at all. What I am saying is that if you are of a mind to postpone the onset of any of these problems, using techniques that will help do this can only help you. Are they a guarantee that you will not have any problems at all. Nope. But if you can keep the buggie man away from your tranny for some time, then why not do it?

If you were to drive my '04 TL with over 81,000 miles on it, you would think that either I was one of the lucky ones who got a good transmission or that I had the TSB done recently. There is not a hint of any of the problems that have been reported.

akertulis

thanks for the site

Tehvine

Man, everyone always gets all defensive about this topic. Whenever I mention it to people I know, they get all mad and say it's stupid. It's a very noticeable difference between rev matching your downshifts and double clutching it.