JonDeutsch

As you probably have seen, I've been on this board since the summer. I looked forward to the TL so much. Then it was released. Then it was reviewed by a few people, saying it was a great car, but not as nimble as the TSX.

Then, gradually, the reviews have gotten worse (from a handling perspective) over time. The big one for me was Car and Driver, and now I just read another review by some idiot in the Journal Register. Even though the guy's an idiot, he clearly painted the TL as something that seems to be emerging as a persona: a sporty-looking sedan that's a great bang for the buck. But, not a sports sedan.

Before you yell at me and tell me I should decide for myself if it's sporty or not, I have test driven the 6MT and 5AT twice each in different environments. But not for very long, and always with a sales person distracting me.

So, for me, I look to reviewers to give assessments since they're focused on one thing: reviewing the car's characteristics.

I currently have an Integra. It's really fun and sporty. Tossable, grippy, all that stuff. But it's old and crusty. I want something that handles just as good if not better, and with more lux features, and with more power.

I originally thought my next car was the TSX, but the engine's power was very disappointing to me. Then the TL was announced: 270HP V6, bluetooth, DVD-A, and all kinds of good stuff in a car that's only 3 inches longer! I was so psyched.

I am able to accept a small decrease in handling as compared to the TSX due to its size and weight. I'm not, however, prepared to buy a gussied up Honda Accord or American highway cruisemobile when it comes to handling.

I'm not a skilled enough evaluator to know through my brief test drives if the TL is:

1. A highway cruiser tour-de-force, with great speed and technology.

or

2. A FWD sports sedan that handles exceptionally for a FWD car, and while not the best handling car in the market (leave that for the 330i, A4 and G35), it's in the top 80%.

I don't need it to be the best car in the world in the twisties. But I do need it to be really good if I'm going to buy it.

You see, I get a real charge when I take a turn with a lot of speed, and stay gripped to the road. I don't want to lose that feeling with my new car!

My one test drive included me pushing the 6MT pretty hard to see what C&D was yapping about. I found out: the steering wheel stuttered as I tried to take hard, sharp turns. Similar effect when I tried flooring it from 0. It didn't feel as "grounded" as my Integra in these manuveurs. These are the things that concern me. But I'll never get enough test drive time in to really know.

So, I'm asking for current owners to be honest with me: Tell me what car you had before, and compare the TL's handling to the car you replaced it with.

This will help provide me with the info I need to feel good about finally buying one of these beasts. As I look around, my decision will be to either buy the TL or keep my Integra until something else hits the market. Nothing else out there that I've seen comes close for me.

Thanks in advance, all.

Jon

drwaldo69

You still have to remember that the TL is a BLEND of lux and performance. Completely different from what you drive now. Check out the latest Autoweek. They love the A-Spec version of the TL and felt it actually rode better than the standard model, not to mention handled better. I don't know if its in your budget but that might be your answer.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

JonD...

You need to buckle down and buy a car already... you think about things way too much. Best of luck

Turbowhat2

my tl is nice. Although once in awhile i think about hows things woudl have been if i bought a SVT Cobra

fast-tl

PeterUbers, I agree. Reading the original post, I'm thinking how many times have I asked my self if my TL could pull .90g in thr upcoming turn? This is not a competition piece; it's a sporting luxury sedan that's the best value out there. Unless you have the discretion to spend an extra $5K-10K on the bimmer (for less equipment and power), I say the TL is it. BMW handling is awesome, but they're underpowered for the dough.

Formula 350

JohnD...

I would say that you need to put your 'list' together in priority order. When I did, the TL was way up there. However, the top of my list was 4 door and a decent back seat as I decided that my 84yo Mom did not need to keep crawling and sometimes falling out of my coupe.

Next was manual transmission that felt good. TL wins.

Third was decent mileage. TL wins, even over TSX when you consider power and mileage.

Now you are getting to handling.... TL does not win, but it does more than I want to try on public streets.

If your list is reversed from mine then maybe the TL is not for you.

Good luck.

That Girl

This same steering thing I have been asking about ,Here it is again .


Someone please verify ........... When starting from 0-60 ...does anyone elses car's steering wheel want to go left and right ... I am NOT flooring it just giving it some gas ....and the steering wheel is not stable ,because I assume the wheels' are not ...Does anyone have a clue what I am talking about or is it my car only?

lakeman

JonD, it seems I am in a similar situation. I have been looking for the right car to buy for over a year. I am retired and "not ready for the Buick just yet". I especially agree with this "I am able to accept a small decrease in handling as compared to the TSX due to its size and weight. I'm not, however, prepared to buy a gussied up Honda Accord or American highway cruisemobile when it comes to handling." I started with the 5 series as my target, but because I had just moved, I knew I had about a year to pick what would likely be "my last really nice performance car" For me it is like Formula 350 said "top of my list was 4 door and a decent back seat " and "Next was manual transmission that felt good. TL wins. " and "Third was decent mileage." Finally it HAS to HANDLE good and be lots of fun in the twistes, not on a race course.

My TL is still not here, but I have tested the 5AT and 6MT and my Porsche comparison still stands. It reminds me of my 88 911. Lots of explosive power and a chassis that has - you talk about a fatal flaw - the tendancy to get VERY unsettled, compared to the TL. The Porsche was and I think the TL will be loads of fun, but with this level of power, you have to learn how and when to apply it. When you do the "flaws" will only occur if you want them to.

I still would like others who actually have the 04 TL to do comparisons to cars they have owned. This is a great way to get a feel of what the 04 TL is about.

rybocf

Jon,

The TL is both 1 and 2. If you want a second version of your Integra, get a BMW 330 or an RSX, but those cars don't really compete with the TL, apples and oranges.

I owned a 1997 BMW 540i 6sp, and traded it for a 2003 4cyl Accord Auto. So I have a somewhat unique perspective have driven all 3 vehicles as an everydary driver in the past year. My TL is a Nav/5AT

After having the TL for 5 weeks, I can tell you it is not complete competition for the 540 in handling and power. Now, first off, my 540 was all broken in, RWD, 6 speed, so there are some differences. On non-snow roads, the 540 was amazing. I could turn off traction control and drop the clutch from a dead stop taking a 90 degree turn and it would chirp all the way through it, but put a smile on your face because you felt secure.

Although the BMW was only 12 more HP, it was much more powerful. The low-end was there where the TL needs VTEC. The BMW had a nice interior, but the TLs was nicer. Not necessarily more luxury, but more and better technology. I like it better. The BMW was an amazing and yet frustrating vehicle, I just couldn't keep it past 100k.

On the flip side, the TL is not just a gussied up Accord, its a lot more. You won't even know they were built on the same platform. The TL is so much more. The Accord is a great utilitarian vehicle, but it basically stops there. The TL has all the features you mentioned, it is smoother, more capable, more powerful, etc.

Here's the bottom line for me, and I might get some flak for this. I love the TL, but my next car will probably be AWD, *maybe* RWD if I have no good AWD options by then, but I plan on keeping the TL for 4 years, it was part of the deal I made with the wife to get it.

It is a great car, and it gets the blood flowing a little, but not a lot. The FWD issue can be annoying at times, and I can image it would be worse with a 6mt. This detracts from the experience when you really want to push this car. Overall it feels somewhat soft, more luxury than sport. Yet, it still qualifies as your #2 because it performs easily at the top 80%, they did a good job with handling all the HP, the sad part is they had to dull your senses to do it. The stability control and limits the power to the wheels when you get on it and chuck it around a corner. I haven't turned off the AVS, but I'm a little scared based on some other powerful FWD cars I've been in.

Here's the deal for me though: What it does do well is what I need it for 90% of the time. For now, I'm willing to give up those small periods of time I want to exhilerate myself for the trade-off of a good deal on great technology backed by a company I know makes solid vehicles. The BMW was too expensive to maintain out of warranty, and I could never justify spending $60k on a new one. (And I hate the look of the new 5).

I can also drive this car in some bad weather here in NE and not be as worried as I would be in the BMW. Bimmers go great if you put snows on them, but I didn't want that hassle, and you're loolking at more $$ for that too.

Bottom line: If complete sport and handling are worth more than quality luxury, electronics, and price, you have a dilema. What other car can you find in this class for this price though? 3-series bimmers are too small, Lexus is even less sporty, Infiniti is just cheese, Benz you need to spend $$ to get this level of equipment and performance, same with 5 series bimmers. The only roughly comarable car is an Audi A4, or a stripped down A6.

Audis were my first choice between the new TL came out. I drove both the A4 and the A6 a few times, but kept coming back to the TL. The A4 is a little too small, under powered a little with 220 hp, and the equipment doesn't match up when you start adding in all the features of the TL. The A6 is closer to the internal size/feel of the TL, but it is a much softer car through the corners unless you get the sport package. It is also underpowered unless you get the 2.7t, but then you're price just shot way out of the TLs range.

I kept coming back to the TL because it filled a niche for me. It beat out ALL those other cars FOR ME due to various reasons, many were price. If money was no object, I would not own a TL, but because it is, the TL was easily the best choice for me once you started comparing looks, feel, reliability, equipment, maintenance, power, etc.

Hope this helps,

Ryan

chadr

The TL handles like crap with the stock tires on it (as C&D tested a .81 g run on the skidpad) but changing the tires makes a huge difference. It still isn't a sports car by any means but it does do well. If you want a fantastic handling car with decent luxury the Mazda RX-8. Course you will get about 13 mpg from it in daily driving. If you want the TL (which is sounds like you do) I would suggest getting different rubber for it and perhaps new shocks/springs when they are available. I consider myself a good driver (past cars, Mazda RX8, M3, Audi S4, etc - several days track training) and the TL is more car then is needed for the street.

The biggest issue with the TL is that the steering is overboosted. If you drive the TL with the stock tires on it it will dissappoint you, different tread makes a big difference.

neuronbob

Jon, your post gets to the crux of the issue...what is a TL? Is it a sports car, or is it a luxury cruiser? More importantly, what do you want from your car? Does Acura offer what you want? You answer my second question adequately in your initial post--you want a sporty car, with some luxury.

The first question is also easy to answer. This car is the most luxurious Honda product I've owned. It also is sporty. I think Acura means it to be what it is--a sporty luxury cruiser, with just enough handling to make it fun in the twisties and more than enough luxury to satisfy the discerning. I think it succeeds for the most part, but it is not perfect. I wouldn't call it "tossable" at 3500 pounds, but good enough for me. I am someone who, like you, gets a thrill out of the twisties, and this car does better than most FWD cars in that regard. The tires and spongy steering take away from that a bit, but these are fixable with new tires and/or higher psi in the original tires. I owned the previous TL and have driven the 330i. The 330i handles better than either TL but lacks in the luxury department. This car handles far better than my previous TL (pre-modding). Just so you know, I modded my prior TL-P by putting on Comptech lowering springs, and put on Dunlop SP Sport 5000 tires--it handled just about as well as a 330i after, except for the understeer inherent to FWD. The new TL, except for the crappy Turanzas, comes close but without the jarring ride I endured with the old TL. The only suspension change I am planning is new tires, something I've done with almost every new car.

As to the third question, does Acura offer what you want? You say you were disappointed with the power of the TSX. The handling is better, probably closer to your Integra than the TL. If you lower your expectations with regard to power, the TSX is your answer. If you decide that the TL is sporty enough, the TL is your choice. It is, ultimatly, your choice, of course. If you want more sport, you'll have to buy a BMW. You'll still be welcome around here (to me anyway) if you do that, there's no shame in spending money for the roundel logo on the hood. Edit--or you could do as another poster above said and pony up another $6k ($5200 + install) for the A-spec.

I hope this helps you.

jyg tl 3

car & driver had it right , it has a fatal flaw.especially is you want a sport sedan, or a sporty sedan like your old acura. That flaw is a combination of too too much torque steer. It's a matter of 270 hp on a front wheel driver . THere is a limit . auto trans makes a difference, more noticiable on 6mt, I drove my neighber's new accord coupe 240 hp auto,, did not notice torque steer, sure its there, but not notiiceable. Have test driven 4 times two different 6mt, as soon as you gave it gas in any low gear the wheel would move . When really getting on it.its down right almost scary. On entry to hyway ramps when you are reallly on the gas it is very scary ,as you are
speed shifting and hard to keep both hands on the wheel. Auto must be easier, but not much fun,, But its always there, no tire change will make the difference. Coupled with a very disconnected power steering feel. ,t takes the car off the sports car list or sports sedan list. Add various qc problemssuch a vibration problems that
may or may not be tire related.it does not cut it.UNLESS you are aware of those problems and willing to live with it
BUT torque steeer is always there. I have owned two Original legend 5mt coupes, both great cars, but not sports
coupes. .160 hp does not torque steer.
I presantly own 193 hp rwd bmw 528.
It is a true sports sedan. Does it all right, only complaint is the Legends lack of engine noises spoiled me., If you see the acura tl on a lift as I did at thedealer. yo wil see it is a Honda Accord, although much more powerful
and better finished. In the air ou can see things like the drive shafts, oil filter
exhaust system , suspension components, All look very small to me in size
for a car with curb wieight of 3500 lbs
Engineered for the job, but way too small
in comparison to my BMW , BUT with all
this sadf YOU have to drive thecar somemore and decde if its for you/ It ain't no integra. it ain't no bmw, it is a better tl, with 6mt, ( BTW the LSD on the 6mt may be causing an aggrivation of the Torque steer ) You drive it , it may be the car for you .

JonDeutsch

You guys rock. Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it. Just so it's clear up front, I'm a big fan of the car. I haven't posted 164 times on this forum for my health.

And, I guess not surprisingly, the answers have been varying as much as my opinion does: From 'handling like my old Porche' (wow!), to 'it's a luxury cruiser, deal with it.'

Is the TL more of the soul of an ES330 or an IS300, or neither? If you couuld assign the TL the soul of a competitor, what would it be?

I wonder if owners will ever agree on the persona of the TL!

(I know it must really kill some people that I'm introducing philosophy into a car purchase. )

My favorite answer to-date, btw, is that it's really not impressive out of the box, but that's merely a function of horrible tires. If this is truly the case, then I'll happily buy the TL and put on some real tires when these wear out. To think that impressive handling peformance is only 4 tires away lends credence to the C&D and other critical reviews, but also to the potential that everyone else talks about.

Let me share some more info, and why this has been so difficult for me:

- I simply love the interior of the TL. I loved the TSX interior, until I saw the TL interior. Now the TSX interior looks a bit immature in comparison. Still, though, the TSX is sharp in its own right.

- I'm looking for a step up from my Integra experience. I felt, on one test drive of the TSX (5AT - can't find a 6MT anywhere) very underwhelmed. It felt slower and less fun than my Integra. I felt very seperated from the car. It didn't feel like a 30k car to me (w/Nav). Maybe I should really work harder to find a 6MT before I give up on it. But if I choose the TSX, I know I'll be bumming over the quality of the stereo, the lack of bluetooth, and the off-the-line power as compared to the TL. But, if the handling is sooo much better, maybe that does eclipse all of these limitations? I dunno. I guess it depends on how much worse the TL handles than the TL? 10% worse? 50% worse?

- I really dig the TL's exterior. It looks sporty.. moreso than the TSX. I don't dig the colors, but the body is distinctive and evokes a sporty image. I'll probably have to get a black TL, since it's the only color that is a lack of color.

- No matter what I get, I'll get NAVI, and from what I understand, Acura's is 2nd to none. This is important to me as well. So, I'm pretty stuck on Acura for now.

- I really like the value proposition tht Acura represents as a brand. I'm a value-minded guy, and I drive proud knowing that I drive the best bang-for-the-buck. That tells me that I'm telling people that I'm a shrewd consumer. This is the message I want to send. I dress nicely at work, but I buy my brand-name clothes at an outlet at 1/2 price.

- Did I mention that I really want the TL??? I really do. I have already researched the phones and cell carriers that are compatible. I've already bought a duplicate DVD-A disc. My second thoughts come from recent, more critical reviews of its handling performance. I was lead to believe from initial reports (and Acura marketing) that this thing was on par with the 530i, G35, and other sport sedans. From these initial comparisons, I was beyond excited. There's a bit of a let down here, and this is the crux of my delay.

I'd still love to hear more comparisons, btw: How much worse is it than the best, and how much better is it than average?! How does the TL's handling compare to, say, the Saab 9-5, the S60, and A4? With standard tires, and with new tires?

How do the tires of the 6MT compare to the 5ATs in terms of performance?

BTW, I'm really looking at the 6MT as a purchase, but again, the C&D review makes me back off this a bit. I've really only experienced torque steer on the 6MT.

Jon
Post #165

lakeman

JonD, take a look at rkilians thread. He comments on the changes to his car with a new set up of wider summer ruber and springs. This is likely the answer for me. Sounds like the 245 wide tires with better grip, reduced the overboosted feel and the springs (and tires) greatly reduce the understeer. AND this may be the best looking 04TL I have seen yet. AWESOME

This set up could be had for less than $1500 and not look as obvious as a ASPEC. If my car comes in as scheduled (next week or so) I am going to get it. If it does not perform as I like, I will add springs and then change tires if needed.

The 04 TL is too good to give up on. As Ryan said "the TL was easily the best choice for me once you started comparing looks, feel, reliability, equipment, maintenance, power, etc. "

chadr

Hmm what Soul would the car be like? Good question. Having driven pretty much every car on the market (used to work for a car dealer and drove everything from Neons to Porsche GT2 and Dodge Viper) I would say it feels most like an Audi. It has a tendancy to understeer and you can feel its weight. However with better then stock tires and different sway bars I bet the car would be truly impressive. A .81g with stock rubber isn't bad when you consider how abyssmal the stock tires truly are.

erikmoeser

You should insist on a long test drive with out the sales person. If your dealer won't allow that find a different one. Then you can spend some time sifting and winnowing all the points made in this thread, all of which have validity to one degree or another.

I would have gone with the BMW 330i performance pkg., way better handling dynamics, the "German" feel, etc. But, 10K$ more equipped comparably. And size wise it the same as our Audi S4, and would be duplicative in everyday function. We were replacing a Maxima and wanted something comfortable for road trips...but with reasonably good handling. And power! The TSX would have been it, although being narrower than the TL it does not have a roomy feel, if it had about 30% more torque across the rev range.

You do have to push it a bit for the handling foibles to make themselves felt. If you want a car that can maintain a very high rate through the twisties, not trying to power excessively out of tight turns, the TL is it. On freeway on ramps it sticks (I have the 6MT w/HPT) very well.

I suggest you switch off the stability/traction control. On dry pavement, especially when going straight ahead hard from a stop the tires spin a little nice and smoothly without the "fight" that I think come from the computer.

I agree that it does not handle like a S2000 or anything close...but in a way it is more fun to drive than our Audi and all the bells and whistles might distract you from some of the faults. Beyond that, the above advice about springs/shocks etc. might be your fall back in the event you are not happy with the stock set up.

I drove the 5AT and found it way less satisfying...I would need to do springs and shocks and tires to be happy, but I may leave mine alone. We will see how it feels once broken in and I get a chance to push it more.

JonDeutsch

Erik,

Unfortunately, I am not so lucky with dealers. My local dealer told me that I have exceeded my limit in test driving the car (twice). So I now have to go to a dealer much further away, which makes it harder to go in to test drive. Even at this new dealer, they wouldn't allow me to take it on the highway (on/off ramps, etc).

Ideally, if I could take the TL on a test drive on a few choice roads that I'm familiar with, that'd be the answer to all my questions. Alas, this doesn't seem to be in the cards. No one will allow me to. Sucks.

Also, Erik, sounds like you and I have similar car interest/sensibilities. The price always ends up a being a sticking point for me as I look at the capable competition. The only difference is that the TSX is roomy enough for me... it's the lack of low-end torque that I found so unacceptable. And, now that the TL is out, the lack of bluetooth and DVD-A are added to the list of things I'd miss.

I've never, ever modded a car in my life. I'm not that kind of person. What does it mean to put on new springs? Does that void the warranty? I'm comfy with replacing tires, but beyond that is a world that I'm unfamiliar with.

Jon

JonDeutsch

Chadr,

Thanks for the response to my question! We have 1 vote for Audi. That's not a bad "soul" to start from, IMHO!

I really like the A4... it's a very sharp car. My big beef with it (believe it or not) is the center console is so damned wide, I can't get my right leg comfortable in the driver's seat!

Car and Driver even noted this in a review... something along the lines of how Germans must have double-jointed knees.

Jon

danno

Jon, I`ve got the 6MT and like everybody and some articles have said, there is torque steer.But I WILL at least change the tires for a nicer and better handling car. I had the M3 also,but my situation changed and I went looking for the next best thing in MY price range. That`s THE deciding factor. Sure,throw in another 20,000 and the factor is almost nil, but it sounds like alot of us are in the same "boat" size. Get the Navi like I got and with the rest of the "bells" and "whistles" on the car you won`t be disappointed

erikmoeser

Jon: Audi is cramped compared to TL. We took our S4 on a 2500 mile trip and all I could think about was how nice our late and lamented '92 Maxima SE was. If long trips aren't a factor then the A4 is a great car, but I would get the new performance handling package. I think altogether in quattro with usual options your might be about $40 ish. The Audi is classier looking and the interior is without peer, at any price. We will keep our S4 probably at least 10 years. We love it. So far (4 years and 37K miles) no reliability issues or problems except a sometimes balky cruise control. I am knocking on wood because I expect repairs to be costly if needed.

An interesting aside...the car came with summer tires (040s) and apparently there was some kind of class action because I got a letter indicating that Audi would reimburse 50% for past snow tires/wheels purchases or offer snows/wheels at a big discount. Having put on Pilot Alpins from day one (fully knowing about the inadvisability of using the 040s in snow) I opted for the reimb. and got a check for $520!

There probably is an issue with warranty when you start doing more than wheels and tires. One thought is that I read somewhere that the a-spec deal, now available only as the complete pkg., will eventually be available piecemiel (spelling???)...so if true wait and maybe just do the Acura spring/shock set up and I would imagine have no warranty problem.

gregory28

Jon:

Buy the '04 TL because it has 5.1 surround, best navigation system available, blue tooth technology and XM radio.

The above reasons were part of my reason, but the biggest reason is that it's an Acura product; RELIABILITY. Consumer Reports ranks the Acura brand as THE most reliable car; ahead of Toyota and Lexus.

My last car was a Volvo T-6 S-80. Larger interior and a bit more luxurious looking than the TL. Handled terribly and had countless service problems.

I think the TL handles great and have no problems with the tires. I love the power and it's a fun car to buzz around in. It does much better in snow than my Volvo did.

Comparing the TL to a BMW 540 is a bit silly. That Bimmer is at least $20K more. Does it handle better than the TL? Sure it does. Are the seats a bit more comfortable?- the sports seats- yep. Does it have a better paint job? absolutely.

When the OEM tires wear out just buy the best ones made for your needs and that'll resolve your issue.

You may be over thinking your decision. Just lease the TL like I did, and after 42 months you can try a different car if you want.

vtechbrain

Drive it, don't take other peoples bull over doing your own test. The handling in this car is exceptional, I bet your integra is a wet noodle compared to it. I used to drive a lude and an integra both owned by an aunt of mine so I can confidently say this is the best handling car ever made by honda (s2000 and NSX excluded of course!). I have also driven numerous bimmers, mercs, saabs and volvos. On the road none have been superior to the TL, many have been significantly poorer!.

danno

JON.......GOFORIT!!

neuronbob

Jon, it sounds like you've already made your decision, that you are going to buy a TL. (Yay, another convert!) The only question left is whether you want 6MT or 5AT. If I lived closer to you, I'd let you test drive MY car, since it's broken in and having no major issues. I sure don't notice any torque steer! Then again, I don't drive more than 5-6/10 because of the tires.

You say you've never modded a car. To get the handling you want, you really might consider an A-Spec. The dealer switches out the springs (part of the suspension), lowering the car and therefore its center of gravity, thus better handling), as well as the other changes you've already heard about.

zexi

With all the bells and whistles 6 speed Nav for 33,500K ..(what I paid) this is the biggest bargin out there today. Yeah . there is torque steer but only if you push the pedal hard on sharp turns. Otherwise the car is tops in technolgy and engineering.. you can't go wrong. Unless your thinking of making a "Fast & Furious" Movie

rets

It's a little hard to compare TL with Integra and BMW, which are small compact cars with great handling. It's based on your mind and what you'd like to have.

Suggest you go to the different dealer to test another TL, you may have the new experience. If your friend having it, get a car and try it.

My friend cannot convince himself for TL, but he likes it now after testing mine.

TL may have some tech issues waiting for Acura's response, but most of drivers say there is no problems at all in their vehicles. I think the build-quality of TL should be still very good and acceptable by most of ppl.

OldGuy

I don't know how your Integra is but why don't you keep it for those nostaligic car tossing episodes. I have a 92 Integra project car and it is fun to drive. I still would only drive it 10% of the time and the TL the other 90%. Thats the way it was with my Type S and thats what it will probably be with my 04 TL, if the damn thing would just get here.

chadr

Jon - I will offer you the same as I did to sonusfaber. If you want to take a run up to Lancaster area I will let you drive my MT6 with Pirelli Pzero Neros on it. It is broken in already and ready to go. Only 45 min from KOP to me in Lancaster.

erikmoeser

Sounds like your answer!

Turbowhat2

The Tl is a very comfortable car to drive around in, and with good enough performance for a teenager like me... Its only because i want that extra 120HP and RWD do i sometimes wish i had bought a Cobra.

rybocf

VTECHBrain,

The guy asked for our opinion, please don't call it Bull, then give your own opinion.

Sorry, but the TL is no Bimmer in lots of ways, many of them favorable to the TL. BUT, you'll be hard pressed to find lots of people that will tell you the handling and drivetrain are better than a BMW, especially the 330, 530, 540.

The stock TL is "soft" compared to these cars . When Acura offers some performance enhancements like tires, shocks, springs, sway bars, etc. that are the equivalent to the "sport packages" offered by the other manufacturers, then things might be different, but until then it doesn't handle as well.

Ryan

JonDeutsch

Chadr,

Wow, that's a very nice offer. One that I just might take you up on! I'll PM you.

Jon

cyjack

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Like Jon, I was pretty much sold on the TL based on its exterior and particularly the interior appearance, specs, and the gadgets.

Went to a dealer and test drove it. First off, seeing it in person made me like it even more, especially the interior, which really blew me away. I had owned an Audi allroad until earlier this year and the TL was right up there with it in feel and surpassed it by far in terms of content (there were, however, a few things about the TL's interior that I thought, were not quite as ergonomic such as placement of the side-view mirror controls and parking brake).

But after I drove the TL I was very disappointed. I'm currently driving a 2003 Honda Accord V6 Coupe (auto) and, to me, the TL felt like a slightly better version of my car. A little more power, a little better handling, but not nearly as much as I had hoped. No doubt, the TL is a nicer car inside and out and is about a million times more desirable than the Accord, but in terms of performance I felt let down.

I then drove the TSX, mostly just because I was at the dealer, which is a bit of a drive away from where I live. I wasn't planning on test driving it because it really is "just" a modified version of the Accord, and I thought a 4-cylinder engine would not provide nearly enough power given the weight of the car.

Then I went for a drive (the auto, which is what I test drove in the TL) and I was blown away. It provided the level of handling that I was hoping the TL would provide and, in my opinion, the power was more than adequate. Driving it was fun, which I couldn't say about the TL or my Accord.

In short, sitting in the TL brought a smile to my face, while driving the TSX brought a smile to my face.

That said, I'm still torn. I still love the interior and content of the TL, but know that I won't be satisfied with the drive. I loved the handling and overall feel of the TSX, but am a little concerned about "stepping down" to a 4-cylinder engine. Then there's my Accord, which I'm very happy with and is devastatingly competent, but isn't really very fun to drive.

My decision du jour is the TSX. As much as I would like DVD-Audio and Bluetooth and the beautiful interior, at this point in my life, handling trumps all. I know that if I were to buy the TL, in a year I'd start thinking about moving into something else. I think the TSX could keep me happy for two to three years.

As far as what car the TL is most like, I second the vote for an Audi, though I would say it's closest to a front-drive A6 with the 3.0 liter V6. I was given one as a loaner when my allroad was in for service (the frequency of service visits is precisely why I no longer own an Audi) and I have to say I was very, very disappointed.

The interior was beautiful (the same as the allroad's), but performance was entirely underwhelming. The car felt bloated and the front wheels spun and shuddered like you wouldn't believe. It was a completely different experience from the exhilarating off-the-line performance provided by the bi-turbo 2.7T and the "planted like the roots of an oak" feel of quattro.

So, though the A6 is significantly more expensive than the TL when comparably spec'd (which isn't even possible because sat-nav is not available in the A6), I don't think this is a wholly positive comparison.

Well, now I've gone and rambled on without really saying anything. I guess all I can say is, go with your gut!

JonDeutsch

cyjack,

All I hope is that the TL with better tires will sufficiently mitigate the handling differential between the TSX and the TL.

If the tires are the culprit, then it looks like the better of the two worlds lies in the TL. I plan on taking Chadr up on his offer (thanks Chad!) to have the unique opportunity to test drive not just a 6MT without a salesman hounding me, but a 6MT with good tires!

Can't wait...

Jon

cyjack

Hey JonDeutsch, definitely let us know how it goes. I think a lot of folks would like to hear about your experience.

Thanks!

bollywood21

Deutsch,

I think, you are over thinking....

You gotta buy one, you are our audio guru.
My TL came in this week and I am overall very pleased. I have a thread called "green machine" about my purchase. The car is awesome, power, style, cutting edge technology, and relatively cheap.

I used to drive a 95 civic EX with high performance tires. The only item that trumps my TL is my civic handles as if it is on rails. You really can't compare the to cars.

Take the plunge and buy!!!!

JonDeutsch

bollywood21,

Thanks for the support! Trust me... I want to join the club. As an Integra owner (based on your Civic body), I fear that I will miss that 'driving on rails' feeling. I know that the TL gives you so much more car in other areas, but I'm struggling with the reality of losing fun handling. And, I plan on selling my Integra to help pay for my new car.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Jon

partagas

Jon, c;mon, get rational. If I had gleaned that you were really a driver, I'd yell at you to get your butt over to BMW. But, I don'e see that. Everything else just pales in comparison to the TL. Drive a G35 and feel the door pressing your leg and shoulder. Listen to the engine roar continuously. Feel the sport suspension slam continually on freeway joints. Take a 270 freeway onramp and feel the vsa cut our power off. Tur off the vsa and do a 180 in the middle of your 270. Audis? great interior, bye bye fun. What else? A Maxima? Guy, it's a 330i or a TL, that's it.

JonDeutsch

Partagas,

Hahah! Man, have I been put in my place. You are correct, I'm not a real driver. It's true. I've never driven on a track, and I've never raced another car on an empty street.

But that doesn't mean I'm a poser.

I know that I get a deep enjoyment and visceral excitement when taking a hard turn at high speed... and stick to the pavement like I'm on rails. I enjoy curvy backroads, taken at high speeds... taunting physics as you stay planted in the lane.

What I don't want is to be dogged by constant torque steer (always waiting for that next occurence to ruin my fun) and such heavy understeer that I feel I'm fighting with the car to do where I want to go. I've experienced both of these phenomenons in brief test drives, so my perspective may be a bit warped (ie., in 10 mins of total driving, both TL negatives have 'happened' to me... my brain then extrapolates that I may get understeer and torque steer every ten minutes!).

If the TL can bring me the above little bursts of handling joy on the road without burping with unnerving torque steer every other day, while cottling me in comfort and the highest of high technology, then I'll be a very happy non-driver.

Otherwise, the TSX may be the answer.

I eagerly await my Chadr-sponsored test drive on Sunday.

Jon

jyg tl 3

John, let us know how the test drive is, But the torque steer is always there in all my 4 tests of 6mt,usually at take offss in lower gears