Gas is Gas?
03-31-2008, 01:38 AM
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Gas is Gas?
So as the price of gasoline is skyrocketing, I did a little research on the difference between 87-93 octane. In Illinois, we typically have 87/89/91. On this forum, ppl swear that if we use anything less than 91 octane we will be hurting our babies. Well, I found a few articles and even a chemist that works for Honda but drives an Acura uses 87 octane.
Now I know that you get a slight and I mean slightly better gas mileage when using a higher octane fuel rather than a lower octane fuel, but I can't justify the 20 or so cents difference. I also know that we will get less hp, but really, WHO is planning on racing when driving to work day to day? BTW, 20/20 did a myth buster on this before and they said that higher octane fuel had did little or NO difference. Oh and for those of us that are worried about engine knocking, cars today are equipped knocking sensors so there's no need to worry about it.
Why use premium gas when regular will do?
By James R. Healey, USA TODAY
Marti Mayne once fueled her low-octane Subaru with high-octane gas. Not now. Premium-gas prices "went sky high, and now I just use low grade" to motor around Yarmouth, Maine, where she runs a marketing business.
Cost differences between regular and premium is as plain as, well, the sign at the station, like this one in Chicago.
By Scott Olson, Getty Images
When prices dropped earlier this year, she stuck with cheaper fuel because "I don't think that my car runs any differently on high, medium or lower grade."
She's right. Engines designed for regular fuel don't improve on premium and sometimes run worse. And today's engines designed for premium run fine on regular, too, their makers say, though power declines slightly. (Background: About Octane ratings)
But premium lovers are passionate. "I would simply curtail driving rather than switch grades," says Bill Teater of Mount Vernon, Ohio, who puts high-test in both his Cadillacs, though only one recommends it. He's sure both the DeVille and the Escalade run rough and lack pep on regular.
Prejudice and preference aside, engineers, scientists and the federal government say there's little need for premium.
When fuel's cheap, motorists are willing to pay 20 cents or so more for premium. But as gas prices sneak back up, the mental wrangle begins anew over whether it's OK to burn cheaper, regular-grade gas.
The answer almost always is yes.
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
"My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.
Premium — gasoline having an octane rating 91 or higher — is just 12.1% of sales this year, down from 13.5% in 2002, when it was 22 cents a gallon cheaper, and well below the modern high of 20.3% in 1994, when it was 49 cents cheaper, according to industry and government data. Despite the allure of premium, once they abandon it, most motorists don't come back, the data suggest.
For every dime increase in the price, sales of premium gas drop 1%, Bob Johnson, general manager of gasoline and environmental services for the 7-Eleven chain, figures, based on data back to 1998.
The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.
"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.
Import brands, especially, use premium fuel to distinguish their upmarket models. Most Toyotas, for instance, are designed to run on regular or midgrade, while the automaker's Lexus luxury brand prefers premium. Same with Honda and its Acura luxury line.
"Generally, the more expensive the vehicle, the higher the expectation for performance and the more the customer is willing to pay for fuel," says Pete Haidos, head of product planning for Nissan in the USA.
Actually, the price debate is nearly worthless. At 20 cents more for premium, pumping 20 gallons of it instead of regular would cost $4 more. Annually, that's a difference of $171 for a vehicle that averages 14 miles per gallon — as some big sport-utility vehicles do — and is driven 12,000 miles a year.
Gasoline retailers and refiners like high-test because it's more profitable than regular-grade gas is. The retailer paid about 8 cents more for the premium you pay 20 cents more for — though that margin can swing wildly. Refiners make a few cents a gallon more on premium than on regular when they sell to wholesale distributors.
As long as it's clean
Profit is meaningless to the modern engine, which, regardless of what's specified in the owner's manual, hardly cares what you use — as long as it's clean.
Today's engines use highly evolved versions of a device called a knock sensor to adjust settings automatically for low-octane gas. And more engine control computers have adequate memory to allow separate sets of instructions for various octanes. The engine control computers keep pushing to maximize performance on whatever grade of fuel is used.
Extreme pressure inside the cylinders causes knock, which is the sound of the pistons literally rattling inside the cylinders. Too much too long can damage the engine. A little now and then won't.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
Automakers say they don't test premium engines on regular to check the difference, but some auto engineers estimate that power declines roughly 5%.
"We can't guarantee the vehicle will perform as specified if other than premium fuel is used," says Mercedes-Benz spokeswoman Michelle Murad. All U.S. Mercedes engines specify premium.
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
Premium, in fact, sometimes is worse fuel than regular. It resists knock because it's harder to ignite than lower-octane fuels. As a result, some engines won't start as quickly or run as smoothly on premium, notes Gibbs, the SAE fuel expert.
High-test does have a potential fuel economy benefit. It is slightly denser than lower-octane gas, meaning there's a little more energy in a gallon. But the small difference is hard to measure in real-world use, and that same density can contribute to undesirable buildup of waste products inside the engine.
No data show that engines designed strictly for regular run better or longer on premium.
The Federal Trade Commission, in a consumer notice, emphasizes: "(I)n most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner's manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner."
There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade car," says Furey.
"There is no gain. You're wasting money," insists Jim Blenkarn, in charge of powertrains at Nissan in the USA.
"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer.
But premium retains a mystique.
Even Mayne, the sensible Subaru owner who has switched to regular, says she'll buy premium when her neighborhood station has a special price. "It's my perception that I might get better gas mileage or that it might be better for my engine," she says.
"I would stop driving rather than use a lower grade of gasoline," says Andrew Martschenko of Boston, who drives a 2003 Nissan Maxima. Nissan says premium is "recommended" for that engine — automaker code for regular is OK, but you'll only get the advertised power on premium.
If the price difference between regular and premium grew to $1, Martschenko says, "Then I might consider trading down" to regular.
Guilt plays a part
Some people feel almost guilty, as if they are abusing their cars, when they don't burn premium, says gasoline retailer Jay Ricker, president of Ricker Oil of Anderson, Ind., which operates 28 stations. "They go all the way down to 87 (octane), but maybe every fourth tank they put in the good stuff."
Sam Turner has seen the appeal, too. He's president of Favorite Markets of Dalton, Ga., which operates 139 outlets in three states.
He recalls visiting one of his stations during a price war with a nearby station, which had cut the price of premium to just 4 cents more than regular, instead of the usual 20-cent difference.
"A customer was waiting and asked me if I was going to match the guy across the street. I said, 'Yeah,' and he said, 'Good. For 4 cents, I'm gonna buy super.' "
Contributing: Barbara Hansen
Now I know that you get a slight and I mean slightly better gas mileage when using a higher octane fuel rather than a lower octane fuel, but I can't justify the 20 or so cents difference. I also know that we will get less hp, but really, WHO is planning on racing when driving to work day to day? BTW, 20/20 did a myth buster on this before and they said that higher octane fuel had did little or NO difference. Oh and for those of us that are worried about engine knocking, cars today are equipped knocking sensors so there's no need to worry about it.
Why use premium gas when regular will do?
By James R. Healey, USA TODAY
Marti Mayne once fueled her low-octane Subaru with high-octane gas. Not now. Premium-gas prices "went sky high, and now I just use low grade" to motor around Yarmouth, Maine, where she runs a marketing business.
Cost differences between regular and premium is as plain as, well, the sign at the station, like this one in Chicago.
By Scott Olson, Getty Images
When prices dropped earlier this year, she stuck with cheaper fuel because "I don't think that my car runs any differently on high, medium or lower grade."
She's right. Engines designed for regular fuel don't improve on premium and sometimes run worse. And today's engines designed for premium run fine on regular, too, their makers say, though power declines slightly. (Background: About Octane ratings)
But premium lovers are passionate. "I would simply curtail driving rather than switch grades," says Bill Teater of Mount Vernon, Ohio, who puts high-test in both his Cadillacs, though only one recommends it. He's sure both the DeVille and the Escalade run rough and lack pep on regular.
Prejudice and preference aside, engineers, scientists and the federal government say there's little need for premium.
When fuel's cheap, motorists are willing to pay 20 cents or so more for premium. But as gas prices sneak back up, the mental wrangle begins anew over whether it's OK to burn cheaper, regular-grade gas.
The answer almost always is yes.
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
"My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.
Premium — gasoline having an octane rating 91 or higher — is just 12.1% of sales this year, down from 13.5% in 2002, when it was 22 cents a gallon cheaper, and well below the modern high of 20.3% in 1994, when it was 49 cents cheaper, according to industry and government data. Despite the allure of premium, once they abandon it, most motorists don't come back, the data suggest.
For every dime increase in the price, sales of premium gas drop 1%, Bob Johnson, general manager of gasoline and environmental services for the 7-Eleven chain, figures, based on data back to 1998.
The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.
"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.
Import brands, especially, use premium fuel to distinguish their upmarket models. Most Toyotas, for instance, are designed to run on regular or midgrade, while the automaker's Lexus luxury brand prefers premium. Same with Honda and its Acura luxury line.
"Generally, the more expensive the vehicle, the higher the expectation for performance and the more the customer is willing to pay for fuel," says Pete Haidos, head of product planning for Nissan in the USA.
Actually, the price debate is nearly worthless. At 20 cents more for premium, pumping 20 gallons of it instead of regular would cost $4 more. Annually, that's a difference of $171 for a vehicle that averages 14 miles per gallon — as some big sport-utility vehicles do — and is driven 12,000 miles a year.
Gasoline retailers and refiners like high-test because it's more profitable than regular-grade gas is. The retailer paid about 8 cents more for the premium you pay 20 cents more for — though that margin can swing wildly. Refiners make a few cents a gallon more on premium than on regular when they sell to wholesale distributors.
As long as it's clean
Profit is meaningless to the modern engine, which, regardless of what's specified in the owner's manual, hardly cares what you use — as long as it's clean.
Today's engines use highly evolved versions of a device called a knock sensor to adjust settings automatically for low-octane gas. And more engine control computers have adequate memory to allow separate sets of instructions for various octanes. The engine control computers keep pushing to maximize performance on whatever grade of fuel is used.
Extreme pressure inside the cylinders causes knock, which is the sound of the pistons literally rattling inside the cylinders. Too much too long can damage the engine. A little now and then won't.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
Automakers say they don't test premium engines on regular to check the difference, but some auto engineers estimate that power declines roughly 5%.
"We can't guarantee the vehicle will perform as specified if other than premium fuel is used," says Mercedes-Benz spokeswoman Michelle Murad. All U.S. Mercedes engines specify premium.
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
Premium, in fact, sometimes is worse fuel than regular. It resists knock because it's harder to ignite than lower-octane fuels. As a result, some engines won't start as quickly or run as smoothly on premium, notes Gibbs, the SAE fuel expert.
High-test does have a potential fuel economy benefit. It is slightly denser than lower-octane gas, meaning there's a little more energy in a gallon. But the small difference is hard to measure in real-world use, and that same density can contribute to undesirable buildup of waste products inside the engine.
No data show that engines designed strictly for regular run better or longer on premium.
The Federal Trade Commission, in a consumer notice, emphasizes: "(I)n most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner's manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner."
There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade car," says Furey.
"There is no gain. You're wasting money," insists Jim Blenkarn, in charge of powertrains at Nissan in the USA.
"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer.
But premium retains a mystique.
Even Mayne, the sensible Subaru owner who has switched to regular, says she'll buy premium when her neighborhood station has a special price. "It's my perception that I might get better gas mileage or that it might be better for my engine," she says.
"I would stop driving rather than use a lower grade of gasoline," says Andrew Martschenko of Boston, who drives a 2003 Nissan Maxima. Nissan says premium is "recommended" for that engine — automaker code for regular is OK, but you'll only get the advertised power on premium.
If the price difference between regular and premium grew to $1, Martschenko says, "Then I might consider trading down" to regular.
Guilt plays a part
Some people feel almost guilty, as if they are abusing their cars, when they don't burn premium, says gasoline retailer Jay Ricker, president of Ricker Oil of Anderson, Ind., which operates 28 stations. "They go all the way down to 87 (octane), but maybe every fourth tank they put in the good stuff."
Sam Turner has seen the appeal, too. He's president of Favorite Markets of Dalton, Ga., which operates 139 outlets in three states.
He recalls visiting one of his stations during a price war with a nearby station, which had cut the price of premium to just 4 cents more than regular, instead of the usual 20-cent difference.
"A customer was waiting and asked me if I was going to match the guy across the street. I said, 'Yeah,' and he said, 'Good. For 4 cents, I'm gonna buy super.' "
Contributing: Barbara Hansen
03-31-2008, 01:46 AM
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Another Article
Fuel Economy
Do You Really Need Premium?
And Answers to Other Gasoline Questions
By Philip Reed, Senior Consumer Advice Editor
Email
Date Posted 08-30-2007
Buying premium gas is like taking vitamins — you can't always feel the difference and yet you know it's the right thing to do. But as gas prices climb, paying the extra dime per gallon for premium is like adding insult to injury. Eventually, the thought is bound to jump into your head: Do I really need to pop for premium?
Until about 15 years ago, if a car called for premium gas and you pumped in regular, the car began to knock and ping and even vibrate. But that was before they essentially put a laptop under the hood of the automobile, said Dr. Loren Beard, senior manager of Environmental and Energy Planning, for Daimler Chrysler. Now, sensors take readings and tune the engine as you drive by adjusting the timing for whatever fuel you put in the tank.
The result is that a car that calls for the mid-grade gasoline will usually run on regular without knocking, Beard said. However, its performance will suffer slightly. How much? It will be perhaps a half-second slower going from zero to 60 mph.
Volvo cars call for "premium fuel [91 octane or better] for optimum performance and fuel economy," said Wayne Baldwin, product/segment manager for the S60/S80. "However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using 87 octane, as the knock sensors and engine management system 'protect' the engine from knocking."
Baldwin, a former rally driver who competed in SCCA Pro Rally events, said that engines have changed a lot in the past 15 years. "Cars built before 1990 probably do not have knock sensors and many brands back then relied on high-compression ratios for the best performance. Today [performance comes from] electronically controlled spark curves, turbos, variable valve timing, supercharging and knock sensors."
Issues of performance aside, Baldwin said you should never use gasoline that causes your car to knock. "Constant knocking or detonation is a real bad thing for engines," he said.
When choosing what grade of gasoline to use, Steve Mazor, principal auto engineer for the Auto Club of Southern California, said it is important to read the owner's manual carefully. The key is to figure out whether premium gasoline is "required" or "recommended." If it is recommended then a driver could opt to use a lower grade of gas, if they were willing to accept slightly reduced performance and fuel economy.
However, Mazor added, "We don't recommend that people switch down. Let's say you switch down to regular, and you have to accelerate to avoid an accident and it doesn't accelerate fast enough. The Auto Club can't be responsible for causing that situation."
Edmunds.com had a Volvo S40 in its fleet, so we consulted the owner's manual to see the exact phrasing in regard to fuel requirements. It said, "Volvo engines are designed for optimum performance on unleaded premium gasoline with an AKI (Anti Knock Index) of 91 or above. The minimum octane requirement is AKI 87." It appears that Volvo is making a recommendation for premium gas but is not requiring it.
In Edmunds.com's forums, debates abound over the pros and cons of using different fuel grades. One member even suggested there was only one type of gasoline, no difference — except for price — between regular and premium. Other members recommended using premium gas even if the manual called for regular. We put this question to Mazor and Beard.
Mazor: "All this does is do a very good job of draining your wallet. People used to put in a tank of premium to get 'the good stuff' to help their engines stay clean. But now they put detergents in all grades so it doesn't really get you anything."
Beard: "If you have car designed to run on 87 [octane], it doesn't help to run it on higher-octane-level gas. But there are several exceptions." He said that the 3.5-liter Chrysler engines are designed to run on mid-grade gas (89 octane) and it allows them to advertise a certain peak horsepower. However, it will run well on regular gas. "The difference is very small," he said.
Interestingly, Mazor noted that at some gas stations, there are only two grades of gas. However, they blend the regular and premium at the pump to produce the mid-grade gasoline. This allows them to have only two underground tanks for the gas storage.
In Edmunds' forums some drivers expressed concern about the quality of gas sold at independent gas stations and advised sticking to the so-called "name" brands of gasoline.
"Typically the only difference is the additive package they put in the gas," Beard said. The additive package is often put into the gas as the tanker is filled up at the refinery. A common additive is a detergent agent. "The law requires a certain level of detergents in gasoline. Shell, for example, is putting in more detergent. — Whether that has a measurable effect to the driver is debatable."
Detergents have a marked effect on engine deposits. "If you take apart a modern engine that has been running on a modern fuel, and compare this to an old engine that was running on old gas, you can see an obvious difference," Mazor said.
The biggest difference between today's gas and the gas sold 15 years ago is the removal of lead. Taking out the lead, and developing effective catalytic converters to more completely burn emissions, have radically cut pollution.
The major oil companies each have a magical-sounding name for their gasoline and tout its superiority over other brands. The difference is the additives or the amount of detergent added to the gas that comes from the refinery. The benefit of these additive packages is lost to most drivers, who simply fill up at the gas station with the cheapest prices or the one for which they carry a credit card.
Does a gas expert like Beard have a preference when buying gas? "I just watch the light on the dash. After it has been on for a day I get nervous and go to the closest station available."
Do You Really Need Premium?
And Answers to Other Gasoline Questions
By Philip Reed, Senior Consumer Advice Editor
Date Posted 08-30-2007
Buying premium gas is like taking vitamins — you can't always feel the difference and yet you know it's the right thing to do. But as gas prices climb, paying the extra dime per gallon for premium is like adding insult to injury. Eventually, the thought is bound to jump into your head: Do I really need to pop for premium?
Until about 15 years ago, if a car called for premium gas and you pumped in regular, the car began to knock and ping and even vibrate. But that was before they essentially put a laptop under the hood of the automobile, said Dr. Loren Beard, senior manager of Environmental and Energy Planning, for Daimler Chrysler. Now, sensors take readings and tune the engine as you drive by adjusting the timing for whatever fuel you put in the tank.
The result is that a car that calls for the mid-grade gasoline will usually run on regular without knocking, Beard said. However, its performance will suffer slightly. How much? It will be perhaps a half-second slower going from zero to 60 mph.
Volvo cars call for "premium fuel [91 octane or better] for optimum performance and fuel economy," said Wayne Baldwin, product/segment manager for the S60/S80. "However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using 87 octane, as the knock sensors and engine management system 'protect' the engine from knocking."
Baldwin, a former rally driver who competed in SCCA Pro Rally events, said that engines have changed a lot in the past 15 years. "Cars built before 1990 probably do not have knock sensors and many brands back then relied on high-compression ratios for the best performance. Today [performance comes from] electronically controlled spark curves, turbos, variable valve timing, supercharging and knock sensors."
Issues of performance aside, Baldwin said you should never use gasoline that causes your car to knock. "Constant knocking or detonation is a real bad thing for engines," he said.
When choosing what grade of gasoline to use, Steve Mazor, principal auto engineer for the Auto Club of Southern California, said it is important to read the owner's manual carefully. The key is to figure out whether premium gasoline is "required" or "recommended." If it is recommended then a driver could opt to use a lower grade of gas, if they were willing to accept slightly reduced performance and fuel economy.
However, Mazor added, "We don't recommend that people switch down. Let's say you switch down to regular, and you have to accelerate to avoid an accident and it doesn't accelerate fast enough. The Auto Club can't be responsible for causing that situation."
Edmunds.com had a Volvo S40 in its fleet, so we consulted the owner's manual to see the exact phrasing in regard to fuel requirements. It said, "Volvo engines are designed for optimum performance on unleaded premium gasoline with an AKI (Anti Knock Index) of 91 or above. The minimum octane requirement is AKI 87." It appears that Volvo is making a recommendation for premium gas but is not requiring it.
In Edmunds.com's forums, debates abound over the pros and cons of using different fuel grades. One member even suggested there was only one type of gasoline, no difference — except for price — between regular and premium. Other members recommended using premium gas even if the manual called for regular. We put this question to Mazor and Beard.
Mazor: "All this does is do a very good job of draining your wallet. People used to put in a tank of premium to get 'the good stuff' to help their engines stay clean. But now they put detergents in all grades so it doesn't really get you anything."
Beard: "If you have car designed to run on 87 [octane], it doesn't help to run it on higher-octane-level gas. But there are several exceptions." He said that the 3.5-liter Chrysler engines are designed to run on mid-grade gas (89 octane) and it allows them to advertise a certain peak horsepower. However, it will run well on regular gas. "The difference is very small," he said.
Interestingly, Mazor noted that at some gas stations, there are only two grades of gas. However, they blend the regular and premium at the pump to produce the mid-grade gasoline. This allows them to have only two underground tanks for the gas storage.
In Edmunds' forums some drivers expressed concern about the quality of gas sold at independent gas stations and advised sticking to the so-called "name" brands of gasoline.
"Typically the only difference is the additive package they put in the gas," Beard said. The additive package is often put into the gas as the tanker is filled up at the refinery. A common additive is a detergent agent. "The law requires a certain level of detergents in gasoline. Shell, for example, is putting in more detergent. — Whether that has a measurable effect to the driver is debatable."
Detergents have a marked effect on engine deposits. "If you take apart a modern engine that has been running on a modern fuel, and compare this to an old engine that was running on old gas, you can see an obvious difference," Mazor said.
The biggest difference between today's gas and the gas sold 15 years ago is the removal of lead. Taking out the lead, and developing effective catalytic converters to more completely burn emissions, have radically cut pollution.
The major oil companies each have a magical-sounding name for their gasoline and tout its superiority over other brands. The difference is the additives or the amount of detergent added to the gas that comes from the refinery. The benefit of these additive packages is lost to most drivers, who simply fill up at the gas station with the cheapest prices or the one for which they carry a credit card.
Does a gas expert like Beard have a preference when buying gas? "I just watch the light on the dash. After it has been on for a day I get nervous and go to the closest station available."
03-31-2008, 01:58 AM
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This is just me, when i used to drive my S2000, ppl on the fourm would be like why not put 87 instead of 91 and i would response, if you can afford a 36 grand + sports car, why the heck can you not afford gas?...so same goes to the TL, if you can afford almost 40 grand car why cant you spend extra $3 dollars (thats 15 gallon for 20 cents more) per fill up. but thats just me. If performance doesnt make a difference for you, then go ahead and put 87, but i paid tons of money for car like this and i'm just going to pay the 3 dollars to make myself feel better at night sleeping..hehe
03-31-2008, 02:11 AM
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The difference in 20+ cents is even more if/when gas will hit near $5 
as economists say (before Memorial Day weekend). How much has your salary gone up in the past few weeks? How much will your salary go up in the next few months? 
I can agree with you that if we buy a premium car, we should be able to afford the premiume gas. BUT the question is DO YOU HAVE TO and DOES THAT JUSTIFY PAYING EVEN MORE? 
as economists say (before Memorial Day weekend). How much has your salary gone up in the past few weeks? How much will your salary go up in the next few months? I can agree with you that if we buy a premium car, we should be able to afford the premiume gas. BUT the question is DO YOU HAVE TO and DOES THAT JUSTIFY PAYING EVEN MORE?
03-31-2008, 02:26 AM
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well maybe in my case its worth it, i drive very little to start with, so everytime i get into my car, i want the best out of it and its not something that i cannot afford with, if i choose between going out and eat or staying home and eat and save the money on fuel i would def choose to save the money and put it on fuel. btw i drive around 6-8k miles a year.
03-31-2008, 02:58 AM
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how about you look at the longevity of the vehicle... I mean I am a honda lover... and lets say down the line I sell my car to someone, I will be passing on the love... and that person will one day pass it on to someone else... now don't you want ur car to live to 250k miles... using 87 octane won't do it...
if you want 87 octane on a j-series motor... get an accord
ps. toptiergas.com ftw (it never fails)
shell vpower (93 octane) wins over I dunno hess, bp (91 octane) or any other non toptiergas listed brand... anyday of the week, the car idles quieter and gets to 60 without struggling
these detergents or additives used on premium gas do infact benefit the car... myth busters? are you kidding me... that is a show aka INFOTAINMENT <- bs
if you want 87 octane on a j-series motor... get an accord
ps. toptiergas.com ftw (it never fails)
shell vpower (93 octane) wins over I dunno hess, bp (91 octane) or any other non toptiergas listed brand... anyday of the week, the car idles quieter and gets to 60 without struggling
these detergents or additives used on premium gas do infact benefit the car... myth busters? are you kidding me... that is a show aka INFOTAINMENT <- bs
03-31-2008, 07:02 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by pphunck
The difference in 20+ cents is even more if/when gas will hit near $5 as economists say (before Memorial Day weekend). How much has your salary gone up in the past few weeks? How much will your salary go up in the next few months?
I can agree with you that if we buy a premium car, we should be able to afford the premiume gas. BUT the question is DO YOU HAVE TO and DOES THAT JUSTIFY PAYING EVEN MORE?
as economists say (before Memorial Day weekend). How much has your salary gone up in the past few weeks? How much will your salary go up in the next few months? I can agree with you that if we buy a premium car, we should be able to afford the premiume gas. BUT the question is DO YOU HAVE TO and DOES THAT JUSTIFY PAYING EVEN MORE? A lot of the stuff you highlight in the 1st post reference using High Octane fuel where the engine is DESIGNED to run on Low Octane. Those references say there is no reason to do that and it may be detrimental. However, that is not what you're doing with the TL-S engine.
The TL-S engine is desiged to run High Octane and the article does acknowledge that an engine designed for High Octane will not run correctly on Low Octane. Specifically marginal loss in fuel mileage and knocking (which is not instantly corrected; there is a "lag" as the ECU sorts out what needs to be done).
It also notes that many manufacturers "recommend" High Octane, but the TL actully says on the fuel filler cap that it is "required" - that is two VERY different things.
Second, there is a simple, basic flaw in your logic: It cost you more to buy gas today no matter what Octane you run BUT the dollar differential is the SAME or LESS.
IOW - a couple years ago Regular (87) was, say, $2.50/gal and Premium (91/93) was, say $2.70/gal. That's a $0.20 per gallon differential or for the TL about $3.40 per tank.
Today Regular costs, say, $3.19/gal and Premium costs, say, $3.39/gal. SAME $0.20 per gallon and SAME $3.40 per tank as a couple of years ago. You haven't "saved" anything.
If the extra few hundred per year was OK a couple years ago, why is it a big deal now?
It's the overall price of gas that's the problem, NOT the difference bewtween 87 and 91/93.
And as your article states, some stations have actually REDCUCED the differential. That means based on the price DIFFERENTIAL it is actaully CHEAPER to run Premium today than it was in the past.
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03-31-2008, 07:50 AM
#9
Suzuka Master
I'm a little surprised about how this comes up over and over, but in the end it's your car, run it on cat urine for all I care. For me it comes down to cost/reward. Around here the price differential between 87 octaine and 91 octaine is $.10. I fill up once per week at about 12 gallons per fill up. Thats $1.20 a week I pay in extra octaine, or $62.40 per year. If someone offered me a "miracle device" that could get me a bit of extra Hp, provide a (very) little more gas mileage, and help my car run smoother, while providing a little better detergent blend to extend the life of my car, for $62.40 a year, I would be all over it. I am not willing to take ANY risk of damaging my car for a buck a week, so if the manufacturer recommends I spend that buck, I guess I will have to put off buying that cup of coffee I have been saving up for and spend it on gas instead.
03-31-2008, 08:51 AM
#10
Suzuka Master
^^^ your right .. it comes up over and over not only here but in the VW forums I go to and prolly every other forum.
I think the OP is trying to convince himself .. not us. If thats the case .. go for it .
I have long ago made up my mind that the engineeres that designed the engine are smarter in their field than I am.. and I use whats recomended .. likewise if I had a low compression engine .. I'd use 87.
I think the OP is trying to convince himself .. not us. If thats the case .. go for it .
I have long ago made up my mind that the engineeres that designed the engine are smarter in their field than I am.. and I use whats recomended .. likewise if I had a low compression engine .. I'd use 87.
03-31-2008, 08:58 AM
#11
Don't feed the...WTF?
Originally Posted by TzarChasm
I'm a little surprised about how this comes up over and over, but in the end it's your car, run it on cat urine for all I care. For me it comes down to cost/reward. Around here the price differential between 87 octaine and 91 octaine is $.10. I fill up once per week at about 12 gallons per fill up. Thats $1.20 a week I pay in extra octaine, or $62.40 per year. If someone offered me a "miracle device" that could get me a bit of extra Hp, provide a (very) little more gas mileage, and help my car run smoother, while providing a little better detergent blend to extend the life of my car, for $62.40 a year, I would be all over it. I am not willing to take ANY risk of damaging my car for a buck a week, so if the manufacturer recommends I spend that buck, I guess I will have to put off buying that cup of coffee I have been saving up for and spend it on gas instead.
Tornado FTW
(Cat urine too
)
03-31-2008, 09:29 AM
#12
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In two years of ownership, I have put 4.5K miles on the car per year. As much as I am hurting just like the other guy/gal filling it, it hasn't hurt enough where I would skimp those extra coins to not use premium on the TL. Yes, a few bucks is a few bucks but I figure since I could still afford it, why not? It's definitely not harming the car.
03-31-2008, 11:41 AM
#13
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Gas is Gas?
Not necessarily. It depends on how much each of my farts smell from one to the next and whether they're loud enough to wake up the dead, or are silent but deadly.
Feel free to weigh in here gang about which combination translates to what octane rating in the form of methane gas.
.
.
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Not necessarily. It depends on how much each of my farts smell from one to the next and whether they're loud enough to wake up the dead, or are silent but deadly.
Feel free to weigh in here gang about which combination translates to what octane rating in the form of methane gas.
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.
.
03-31-2008, 12:05 PM
#14
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SO ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME, we NEED better gas than a PORSCHE????!!!!!!
FOR THE RECORD, I USE PREMIUM EVERYTIME...
Thanks for all your input ppl. This is what i love about AZ. People get so fired up, lol. I was having a conversation with a group of ppl about this and decided to research. Since ppl only gave their own opinions with little facts to prove it, I wanted to post a couple articles about the topic.
If the price of gasoline keeps going up (which it will), the cost of everything else goes up. Yeah if the diference of premium is 20 cents, then a full tank of gas is $3 bucks more. That doesn't seem like alot, but with the additional rise in gasoline/food/etc, this can add up.
I'm sure that the majority of ppl here can afford it, but do you HAVE to is the question. BTW, our manuals state that 91 is the minimum requirement. Does a Porsche that's designed for premium mean that it's the requirement?
Here are the major points of the first articel for premium engines:
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
"My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.
The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.
"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.
Today's engines use highly evolved versions of a device called a knock sensor to adjust settings automatically for low-octane gas. And more engine control computers have adequate memory to allow separate sets of instructions for various octanes. The engine control computers keep pushing to maximize performance on whatever grade of fuel is used.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
Automakers say they don't test premium engines on regular to check the difference, but some auto engineers estimate that power declines roughly 5%.
"We can't guarantee the vehicle will perform as specified if other than premium fuel is used," says Mercedes-Benz spokeswoman Michelle Murad. All U.S. Mercedes engines specify premium.
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
SO ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME, we NEED better gas than a PORSCHE????!!!!!!
Thanks for all your input ppl. This is what i love about AZ. People get so fired up, lol. I was having a conversation with a group of ppl about this and decided to research. Since ppl only gave their own opinions with little facts to prove it, I wanted to post a couple articles about the topic.
If the price of gasoline keeps going up (which it will), the cost of everything else goes up. Yeah if the diference of premium is 20 cents, then a full tank of gas is $3 bucks more. That doesn't seem like alot, but with the additional rise in gasoline/food/etc, this can add up.
I'm sure that the majority of ppl here can afford it, but do you HAVE to is the question. BTW, our manuals state that 91 is the minimum requirement. Does a Porsche that's designed for premium mean that it's the requirement?
Here are the major points of the first articel for premium engines:
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
"My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.
The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.
"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.
Today's engines use highly evolved versions of a device called a knock sensor to adjust settings automatically for low-octane gas. And more engine control computers have adequate memory to allow separate sets of instructions for various octanes. The engine control computers keep pushing to maximize performance on whatever grade of fuel is used.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
Automakers say they don't test premium engines on regular to check the difference, but some auto engineers estimate that power declines roughly 5%.
"We can't guarantee the vehicle will perform as specified if other than premium fuel is used," says Mercedes-Benz spokeswoman Michelle Murad. All U.S. Mercedes engines specify premium.
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
SO ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME, we NEED better gas than a PORSCHE????!!!!!!
03-31-2008, 12:22 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
^^ What does a porsche have to do with any of this? Its engine design calls for premium, cuz it has a relatively high compression ratio. Our cars are very high on the compression ratio, and from the chemical reactions taking place at the the elevated temperatures and pressures associated with the hgih compression ratio, we require premium in order to deter knock. you can run regular, no problem, but design will be such that ignition will be advanced (side rant cuz i may be using the wrong word: man, i hate mixing up these words "advanced / retarded" i suck, i mean to say that the ignition will take place at a lower compression ratio) so you dont knock. Knock is sucktastic for an engine. Very Very Very Simply put, higher octane fuels have more branched molecules than straight-chained molecules, increaseing the ignition delay cuz there are more reactions that have to occur to combust the octane molecule. The longer delay means we will not combust the gasoline before the flame front due to the spark consumes the fuel. We want that flame front (spark plug initiated) to consume the flame front rather than auto-ignite. This is a very small role of octane, and i believe one of the most vital one: prevention of knock.
FYI, my moms 1998 Camry V6 states Premium Fuel Highly Recommended. Why? Its engine is a 10.5:1 compression ratio
Sorry for the rant, but comparison to high end cars is not justifiable, as logical as it may seem.
FYI, my moms 1998 Camry V6 states Premium Fuel Highly Recommended. Why? Its engine is a 10.5:1 compression ratio
Sorry for the rant, but comparison to high end cars is not justifiable, as logical as it may seem.
03-31-2008, 12:31 PM
#16
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This topic has pop up all over forums on the internet and it's quite simple.
Stick with the recommended fuel in your owner's manual.
If you can't afford it, you should downsize to another car that's less fuel thirsty. And really, the price difference is only about the cost of a lunch @ Micky D's/tank (20g * 0.20 = $4). Unless you drive for a living I doubt you'll use more than 5 tanks a month which is about $20/month. If that drive you over the limit of what you can afford, you really should look at your finances and readjust your life style accordingly.
And if you're really want to conserve you can, go on a diet yourself. You eat less, weight less and the car can use less gas to pull you around town. Win, win.
Yes, you can use 87. It won't hurt the car but you're not getting the most out of the engine which also question why you bought the car in the first place?
Stick with the recommended fuel in your owner's manual.
If you can't afford it, you should downsize to another car that's less fuel thirsty. And really, the price difference is only about the cost of a lunch @ Micky D's/tank (20g * 0.20 = $4). Unless you drive for a living I doubt you'll use more than 5 tanks a month which is about $20/month. If that drive you over the limit of what you can afford, you really should look at your finances and readjust your life style accordingly.
And if you're really want to conserve you can, go on a diet yourself. You eat less, weight less and the car can use less gas to pull you around town. Win, win.
Yes, you can use 87. It won't hurt the car but you're not getting the most out of the engine which also question why you bought the car in the first place?
03-31-2008, 12:37 PM
#17
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I don't think it's more so that we "need" better gas then a Porsche but more like if you want your TL to run like the way the manufacturer specs intended to be, then use premium. In the Porsche's case, it's not that the Porsche necessarily "needs" premium, but hey, if you want that Porsche to run like one, use premium gas.
I read your second post and it's funny they mentioned a Volvo S40. I had one of those cars, small and peppy (1.9 turbo / 160/170hp stock). I bought it new and was running 91 on it for two years. I have kept track of almost every fill-up on that car and averaged ~25mpg on premium. A few years back, we had the New Orleans flooding and gas spiked. I was going through a job change and without work I skimped and switched over to regular for a month and on those 4 fill-ups, my mpg went down to 21-22mpg. I wasn't driving any more or less and if anything more highway but I did feel I wasn't accelerating as fast and the car was louder on acceleration. After that, I switched back to premium and since then, I was averaging back to around ~25mpg shortly after. Coincidence, perhaps, but that was my real world test. Also, I think the manual actually reads something to the extent that it recommends 91 octane but 87 can be used. So, I guess the article is somewhat accurate in which it may have provided me with a slower car using 87 vs 91 but I cannot prove it but I know my gas mileage definitely suffered.
I read your second post and it's funny they mentioned a Volvo S40. I had one of those cars, small and peppy (1.9 turbo / 160/170hp stock). I bought it new and was running 91 on it for two years. I have kept track of almost every fill-up on that car and averaged ~25mpg on premium. A few years back, we had the New Orleans flooding and gas spiked. I was going through a job change and without work I skimped and switched over to regular for a month and on those 4 fill-ups, my mpg went down to 21-22mpg. I wasn't driving any more or less and if anything more highway but I did feel I wasn't accelerating as fast and the car was louder on acceleration. After that, I switched back to premium and since then, I was averaging back to around ~25mpg shortly after. Coincidence, perhaps, but that was my real world test. Also, I think the manual actually reads something to the extent that it recommends 91 octane but 87 can be used. So, I guess the article is somewhat accurate in which it may have provided me with a slower car using 87 vs 91 but I cannot prove it but I know my gas mileage definitely suffered.
03-31-2008, 12:42 PM
#18
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I take offense to ppl thinking that i can't afford it/what not. That's not the question. The question is, do we HAVE to/do our cars NEED it?
How many times do ppl on this forum take advantage of getting the most out of their engine (unless you've got a s/c)? Seriously, the majority of ppl on this forum just drive their car for daily driving and occassionally drop a gear to pass a cobalt/civic/beater up on the highway.
I WANT PROOF. This is why I posted this. PROOF that we HAVE to use it, that our cars will turn to crap if we don't. I USE PREMIUM. I'm just like everyone else, that has the STIGMA not to use anything less. I WANT PROOF! BTW, we don't even have 91 oct here. It's 87/89/93. And i think any mid grade oct is probably a mixture of the two.
How many times do ppl on this forum take advantage of getting the most out of their engine (unless you've got a s/c)? Seriously, the majority of ppl on this forum just drive their car for daily driving and occassionally drop a gear to pass a cobalt/civic/beater up on the highway.
I WANT PROOF. This is why I posted this. PROOF that we HAVE to use it, that our cars will turn to crap if we don't. I USE PREMIUM. I'm just like everyone else, that has the STIGMA not to use anything less. I WANT PROOF! BTW, we don't even have 91 oct here. It's 87/89/93. And i think any mid grade oct is probably a mixture of the two.
03-31-2008, 12:51 PM
#20
Suzuka Master
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That $171 extra cost if you save it by using regular will buy between .96 & 1.25 cups of coffee a week. Starbucks tall mocha costs $2.70 to $3.40 a cup.
03-31-2008, 12:52 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
JUSTIFICATION: Internal Combustion Engines By Heywood.
The justification (not proof) is outlined there, of why engineers specify high octane fuels and what is the premise behind it. There is some truth to the above posted article, but much of which is over simplified to draw false conclusions. Combustion, evertime it occurs in our cars, is never the same. it rarely ever follows the theorized P-V curve, and there is just too much happening that to this day, it is heavily studied. If i remember my professor's qoute "the amount of reactions leading up to the actual combution of octane will blow your mind". This subject is much to involved to warrant one conclusive simplified piece of proof. Heywood would probably allow you to understand why certain fuel types are called out for, however.
I dont even understand it completely, and this is part of being an ME
The justification (not proof) is outlined there, of why engineers specify high octane fuels and what is the premise behind it. There is some truth to the above posted article, but much of which is over simplified to draw false conclusions. Combustion, evertime it occurs in our cars, is never the same. it rarely ever follows the theorized P-V curve, and there is just too much happening that to this day, it is heavily studied. If i remember my professor's qoute "the amount of reactions leading up to the actual combution of octane will blow your mind". This subject is much to involved to warrant one conclusive simplified piece of proof. Heywood would probably allow you to understand why certain fuel types are called out for, however.
I dont even understand it completely, and this is part of being an ME
03-31-2008, 12:56 PM
#22
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by pphunck
I take offense to ppl thinking that i can't afford it/what not. That's not the question. The question is, do we HAVE to/do our cars NEED it?
How many times do ppl on this forum take advantage of getting the most out of their engine (unless you've got a s/c)? Seriously, the majority of ppl on this forum just drive their car for daily driving and occassionally drop a gear to pass a cobalt/civic/beater up on the highway.
I WANT PROOF. This is why I posted this. PROOF that we HAVE to use it, that our cars will turn to crap if we don't. I USE PREMIUM. I'm just like everyone else, that has the STIGMA not to use anything less. I WANT PROOF! BTW, we don't even have 91 oct here. It's 87/89/93. And i think any mid grade oct is probably a mixture of the two.
How many times do ppl on this forum take advantage of getting the most out of their engine (unless you've got a s/c)? Seriously, the majority of ppl on this forum just drive their car for daily driving and occassionally drop a gear to pass a cobalt/civic/beater up on the highway.
I WANT PROOF. This is why I posted this. PROOF that we HAVE to use it, that our cars will turn to crap if we don't. I USE PREMIUM. I'm just like everyone else, that has the STIGMA not to use anything less. I WANT PROOF! BTW, we don't even have 91 oct here. It's 87/89/93. And i think any mid grade oct is probably a mixture of the two.
I would rather listen to the Engineer that designed, tuned the motor as to what goes into it. After all he would know more than the chemist. Also try it out for awhile, see if you want keep using it. I personally see about 60 miles less to a tank with regular (i have tried it). Added up im loosing money, and i did notice my car wasnt as lively.
03-31-2008, 01:04 PM
#24
Don't feed the...WTF?
Originally Posted by pphunck
The question is, do we HAVE to/do our cars NEED it?
Our cars don't need premium. No matter what anyone says, premium is not required.
Hell - our cars would probably run on e85 for a few days.
So for a precise "do our cars NEED premium" No.
Do I NEED to have an Acura over a dodge neon? No.
Do we NEED to eat more than a handful of rice and beans once a day? No.
There is lots of stuff that people do just for their own self-being. Think of it this way..... Regular gas vs premium, lets just call it a 5% difference in HP, response, MPG, whatever else there is to it.
Oil - Synthetic vs dino. Same thing. There is absolutely nothing what-so-ever wrong with using dino oil for $1.50/quart. But by using syn, you're getting a little longer life, maybe more HP due to the longer life? Anyoe want to call that 5% longer life?
Tires - balancing, rotating, and keeping proper PSI. Without a long explanation - I can probably dig up and article that says you get 5%+ MPG increase by keeping everything current and proper.
The 3 little things I have mentioned all add up to 15% we'll call it for the sake of being easy. That 15% is what seperates those of us that don't mind an extra couple hours of maintanance, and a few hundred bucks per year from those whose car will be in the car ads sitting in the "bargain under $500" section. That's not even half a car payment we're talking about.
Here is a little known fact that many may not know - Did you all know that 85% of Fords are still on the road? Of that only 15% made it home. (Those are probably the guys that used premium)
I rest my case
03-31-2008, 01:06 PM
#25
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Why not just mix it around, use prem when you want the car to perform at its best and mid grade for those's trips to work, I've always used prem in my TL-S but if gas gets much higher I might alternate and, going by that saying if you can afford the car you can afford the gas is bull, I have a 6 figure job yes but I also have other things to pay for monthly, you have to cut some corners on somethings. Hell I lease the car why the hell not, its not like I'm going to keep it forever I go on 2 year leases and I have only a year left.
03-31-2008, 01:15 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by pphunck
I take offense to ppl thinking that i can't afford it/what not. That's not the question. The question is, do we HAVE to/do our cars NEED it?
How many times do ppl on this forum take advantage of getting the most out of their engine (unless you've got a s/c)? Seriously, the majority of ppl on this forum just drive their car for daily driving and occassionally drop a gear to pass a cobalt/civic/beater up on the highway.
I WANT PROOF. This is why I posted this. PROOF that we HAVE to use it, that our cars will turn to crap if we don't. I USE PREMIUM. I'm just like everyone else, that has the STIGMA not to use anything less. I WANT PROOF! BTW, we don't even have 91 oct here. It's 87/89/93. And i think any mid grade oct is probably a mixture of the two.
How many times do ppl on this forum take advantage of getting the most out of their engine (unless you've got a s/c)? Seriously, the majority of ppl on this forum just drive their car for daily driving and occassionally drop a gear to pass a cobalt/civic/beater up on the highway.
I WANT PROOF. This is why I posted this. PROOF that we HAVE to use it, that our cars will turn to crap if we don't. I USE PREMIUM. I'm just like everyone else, that has the STIGMA not to use anything less. I WANT PROOF! BTW, we don't even have 91 oct here. It's 87/89/93. And i think any mid grade oct is probably a mixture of the two.
You don't NEED premium unless your car has a turbo.
87 will work fine for all non-turbo car with performance degradation on high compression-ratio engines. Low compression engines do not need anything higher than 87. It just wastes money.
What I am simply suggesting is to stick with manufacturer recommendation. You have to ask yourself for what reason to stray from that recommendation? I already pointed out cost isn't and should not be one of them. Then what is it? Sticking it to the oil companies? I just busted that too. If you use gas, we make money, we don't make more with premium. Ok, you don't need the power. Fine, use 87 but shop for something that recommends 87 when it's time for your next ride. Why buy a Ferrari if you're going to park it til the end of time? Why get an engine and not try to get maximum potential out of it?
I cheap out before too. Putting 87 in my VQ35. The performance hit is immediate but it takes about 2 tanks of 91 before the computer readjusted back. And I swear not to do it ever again.
03-31-2008, 01:21 PM
#27
Don't jive my 3.5
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We had an RDX for a few months and had to lemonlaw it due to the fact the brake system kept needing repair, but while I had it I used mid-grade in it, it ran better to me, it slowed down the jumpy take offs and seemed to smooth the egn out. never had any knocking or problems with the egn.
Originally Posted by Xtrema
I work in the "evil" oil industry. I tell you that we make no money @ the refinery. All the money are made from oil before it reaches the refinery. If we don't have to make premium we won't, the profit on regular and premium is the same. There is NO incentive for us to keep pumping out premium with higher octane if manufacturers do not need it.
You don't NEED premium unless your car has a turbo.
87 will work fine for all non-turbo car with performance degradation on high compression-ratio engines. Low compression engines do not need anything higher than 87. It just wastes money.
What I am simply suggesting is to stick with manufacturer recommendation. You have to ask yourself for what reason to stray from that recommendation? I already pointed out cost isn't and should not be one of them. Then what is it? Sticking it to the oil companies? I just busted that too. If you use gas, we make money, we don't make more with premium. Ok, you don't need the power. Fine, use 87 but shop for something that recommends 87 when it's time for your next ride. Why buy a Ferrari if you're going to park it til the end of time? Why get an engine and not try to get maximum potential out of it?
I cheap out before too. Putting 87 in my VQ35. The performance hit is immediate but it takes about 2 tanks of 91 before the computer readjusted back. And I swear not to do it ever again.
You don't NEED premium unless your car has a turbo.
87 will work fine for all non-turbo car with performance degradation on high compression-ratio engines. Low compression engines do not need anything higher than 87. It just wastes money.
What I am simply suggesting is to stick with manufacturer recommendation. You have to ask yourself for what reason to stray from that recommendation? I already pointed out cost isn't and should not be one of them. Then what is it? Sticking it to the oil companies? I just busted that too. If you use gas, we make money, we don't make more with premium. Ok, you don't need the power. Fine, use 87 but shop for something that recommends 87 when it's time for your next ride. Why buy a Ferrari if you're going to park it til the end of time? Why get an engine and not try to get maximum potential out of it?
I cheap out before too. Putting 87 in my VQ35. The performance hit is immediate but it takes about 2 tanks of 91 before the computer readjusted back. And I swear not to do it ever again.
03-31-2008, 01:24 PM
#28
i have had a half a dozen sportbikes in the last 20 years, and not one of them recommended anything other than 87 octane...why is it that my bikes that usually had a compression ratio of 13:1 would need nothing more than 87 octane...makes me wonder why my tl would need more...
03-31-2008, 01:31 PM
#29
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here we go again with the gas thread.
Everytime i fill up is more or less about 13gals. price of prem 93oct is about $3.69
93 OCT/ 13*$3.69=47.97
91 OCT/ 13* $3.59=46.67
87 OCT/ 13* $3.49=45.37
NOW IS IT REALLY WORTH LOSING THE POWER FOR $2.60.....
STOP BEING CHEAP AND JUST PAY THE $2 EXTRA. MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU NEED TO STEP ON THE GAS TO GET OUT OF SOMEONES WAY!
Everytime i fill up is more or less about 13gals. price of prem 93oct is about $3.69
93 OCT/ 13*$3.69=47.97
91 OCT/ 13* $3.59=46.67
87 OCT/ 13* $3.49=45.37
NOW IS IT REALLY WORTH LOSING THE POWER FOR $2.60.....
STOP BEING CHEAP AND JUST PAY THE $2 EXTRA. MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU NEED TO STEP ON THE GAS TO GET OUT OF SOMEONES WAY!
03-31-2008, 01:31 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by vinnier6
i have had a half a dozen sportbikes in the last 20 years, and not one of them recommended anything other than 87 octane...why is it that my bikes that usually had a compression ratio of 13:1 would need nothing more than 87 octane...makes me wonder why my tl would need more...
This is simply an educated guess, and i can be completely wrong..
Sport bikes may have smaller pistons, the distance that the spark-initiated flame has to travel to consume the unburned air/fuel mixture is much less, hence less time is involved in the fuel combustion process. Cars have larger pistons, i assume at least, and because of this, the disance that the flame may have to travel is increased. With increased distance, the flame takes more time to reach the end of the piston chamber, where by at this time, the unburned air/fuel mixture will have inevitably gone thru all the pre-combustion processing reactions and will auto-ignite before being engulfedy the by the spark-initiated flame...
Again, this is my guess, and your question is a good one!
03-31-2008, 01:31 PM
#31
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Seems like there's a lot of debate and with the low amount of time I have left I'd thought I'd just share this simple fact.
Who the hell cares?! Ever since I've been driving and filling up other peoples cars when they were to lazy to do it themselves, I always pay by the dollar and not by the litre [or gallons for you Americans]. Gas prices are always going to fluctuate, do you always buy exactly say 48.318349 litres of gas every single time? I highly doubt it.
Personally, I keep it simple. High gas price or not.. I'm always going to be spending the same amount of money. Maybe, 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 dollars or etc on gas will be on gas. It's not like I'm going to buy 2 dollars worth of 87octane gas when it'll be 5 dollars for premium to get the same amount of litres.
Who the hell cares?! Ever since I've been driving and filling up other peoples cars when they were to lazy to do it themselves, I always pay by the dollar and not by the litre [or gallons for you Americans]. Gas prices are always going to fluctuate, do you always buy exactly say 48.318349 litres of gas every single time? I highly doubt it.
Personally, I keep it simple. High gas price or not.. I'm always going to be spending the same amount of money. Maybe, 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 dollars or etc on gas will be on gas. It's not like I'm going to buy 2 dollars worth of 87octane gas when it'll be 5 dollars for premium to get the same amount of litres.
03-31-2008, 01:38 PM
#32
Don't feed the...WTF?
Originally Posted by o4Komodo
Seems like there's a lot of debate and with the low amount of time I have left I'd thought I'd just share this simple fact.
Who the hell cares?! Ever since I've been driving and filling up other peoples cars when they were to lazy to do it themselves, I always pay by the dollar and not by the litre [or gallons for you Americans]. Gas prices are always going to fluctuate, do you always buy exactly say 48.318349 litres of gas every single time? I highly doubt it.
Personally, I keep it simple. High gas price or not.. I'm always going to be spending the same amount of money. Maybe, 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 dollars or etc on gas will be on gas. It's not like I'm going to buy 2 dollars worth of 87octane gas when it'll be 5 dollars for premium to get the same amount of litres.
Who the hell cares?! Ever since I've been driving and filling up other peoples cars when they were to lazy to do it themselves, I always pay by the dollar and not by the litre [or gallons for you Americans]. Gas prices are always going to fluctuate, do you always buy exactly say 48.318349 litres of gas every single time? I highly doubt it.
Personally, I keep it simple. High gas price or not.. I'm always going to be spending the same amount of money. Maybe, 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 dollars or etc on gas will be on gas. It's not like I'm going to buy 2 dollars worth of 87octane gas when it'll be 5 dollars for premium to get the same amount of litres.
Damn Canadians. That made no sense to me with the fuzzy math. But I do agree about who cares. I just have too much freetime at work.
03-31-2008, 01:38 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by clavodulce16
here we go again with the gas thread.
Everytime i fill up is more or less about 13gals. price of prem 93oct is about $3.69
93 OCT/ 13*$3.69=47.97
91 OCT/ 13* $3.59=46.67
87 OCT/ 13* $3.49=45.37
NOW IS IT REALLY WORTH LOSING THE POWER FOR $2.60.....
STOP BEING CHEAP AND JUST PAY THE $2 EXTRA. MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU NEED TO STEP ON THE GAS TO GET OUT OF SOMEONES WAY!
Everytime i fill up is more or less about 13gals. price of prem 93oct is about $3.69
93 OCT/ 13*$3.69=47.97
91 OCT/ 13* $3.59=46.67
87 OCT/ 13* $3.49=45.37
NOW IS IT REALLY WORTH LOSING THE POWER FOR $2.60.....
STOP BEING CHEAP AND JUST PAY THE $2 EXTRA. MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU NEED TO STEP ON THE GAS TO GET OUT OF SOMEONES WAY!
03-31-2008, 01:41 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by GLowrdr
Damn Canadians. That made no sense to me with the fuzzy math. But I do agree about who cares. I just have too much freetime at work.
I just meant to say... uhm, in simple-est words, I'll always be paying [example] 5 dollars of gas regardless of what octane it is.
03-31-2008, 01:43 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by vinnier6
i have had a half a dozen sportbikes in the last 20 years, and not one of them recommended anything other than 87 octane...why is it that my bikes that usually had a compression ratio of 13:1 would need nothing more than 87 octane...makes me wonder why my tl would need more...
I guess Ankur answered it already.
03-31-2008, 02:45 PM
#37
Rev High; Drive Happy
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Ironically when you open this thread [I opened it three times with the same banner-ad] there is a banner-ad saying "Double any vehicle's MPG! Secret technology THEY want to ban! plans, sources, complete kits! $50" lol
03-31-2008, 03:19 PM
#38
Senior Moderator
if you think about it, you are going nowhere with getting regular gas over premium. the car will reduce timing, and reduce performance. heres the ironic part, to get back to your regular speed say 60MPH, it will either take more time accelerating to get to 60 at a constant RPM or more power (more fuel dumped into the motor) to get to 60. Run this over a course of a tank of gas and you should get the MPG differences, in the case above poster vith the Volvo, a 2-3 MPG difference. Factor that 2-3 MPG difference in and you come right about at the same point.
Also suppose that there is some backing that will eventually come that shows that premium in our motors reduces damage, saving those say, 141 dollars over the course of a year won't pay for a motor rebuild. yes, the premium may prolong it, but its better safe than sorry.
Also some guy's warranty got denied here because he didn't use the HONDA ATF or MTF fluid that was recommended to acura's specs. Well suppose they refuse to do a warranty repair due to you running regular gas, is that worth it?
Also suppose that there is some backing that will eventually come that shows that premium in our motors reduces damage, saving those say, 141 dollars over the course of a year won't pay for a motor rebuild. yes, the premium may prolong it, but its better safe than sorry.
Also some guy's warranty got denied here because he didn't use the HONDA ATF or MTF fluid that was recommended to acura's specs. Well suppose they refuse to do a warranty repair due to you running regular gas, is that worth it?
03-31-2008, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Xtrema
You don't NEED premium unless your car has a turbo.
The car has had all of it's scheduled maintenance on time.
Just to clarify, 91 octane is recommended for this car.
Just thought I'd pitch in my
03-31-2008, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KGB11
I have an '03 Audi A4 1.8 turbo that I have been filling up with 87 octane for 5 years and to date it has had zero engine problems... *knocks on wood*
The car has had all of it's scheduled maintenance on time.
Just to clarify, 91 octane is recommended for this car.
Just thought I'd pitch in my
The car has had all of it's scheduled maintenance on time.
Just to clarify, 91 octane is recommended for this car.
Just thought I'd pitch in my