05TL6SPWDP

I'm sure we've all heard the arguement that our 3G TL's aren't sporty or involving because there FWD. I just wanted to get some feedback on the FWD vs RWD drive arguement, what are the benifits of each. Also what are your views on the new SH-AWD.

I feel my car is plenty sporty and has a great feel to it. It's far sportier than my friends BMW 328 (may not be fair comparing the two given it's the weaker 3 series engine).

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Real sports cars have always generally been RWD. When in the throttle weight shifts to the back rear wheels and help with traction. It can be a lot of fun playin with traction on high HP RWD cars. I have owned a 03 Z06 vette and a 05 C6 vette and it does get a little hairy in 1st and 2nd gear, but can you imagine 400+ HP 3000lb car with FWD??? that would be scary.

During normal driving there is no telling what wheels are driving the car so for everyday use the TL is perfect. Also, a huge benefit of the TL and FWD in general is that FWD is excellent in snow where as RWD is pretty much useless in most cases.
So for year round driving in areas that get snow in the winter months the TL is an excellent choice.
With FWD and higher HP cars you do experience torque steer during full throttle where it seems like the steering wheel wanders all over the place.

avs007

This is a myth, and is total BS with modern cars. FWD offers pretty much zero advantages on the snow over RWD, here's why:

1.) Modern RWD cars have near 50/50 weight distribution. That means a good chunk of the weight is over the drive wheels already. This isn't like the 1970's where 70 percent of the weight was over the front wheels...

2.) Even if FWD did offer you better traction to get started, it will offer you NOTHING to help slow you down or help you steer. (ie, just because you can accelerate up to speed in the snow, doesn't mean you're good to go) In fact, FWD can actually HURT your ability to steer, because if you hit the gas too hard and accidentally spin the tires, you will have ZERO steering ability. (Kinetic friction is ALWAYS lower than static friction, and usually orders of magnitude different). I've seen many people with FWD, when they enter a turn, think that they can "power" their way through the turn if they lose traction, by pointing the front wheels where they want to go, and punching the gas.... That's about the worst thing you can do.

Now I'm not saying that you should ditch FWD and get a RWD car to drive in the snow, I"m just saying not to dismiss RWD because of snow, or automatically assume FWD is going to be better...

As an example, my wife got stuck on our snow covered hill multiple times, when wearing the stock All-Season Tires... (The stock tires are aweful in the snow) Meanwhile, when I was in my RWD car (this particular time I was only a few cars behind her), I made it up the hill just fine, even tho I was also wearing All-Season tires. In fact when I went back to get her, and managed to get her TL back home... I couldn't get the TL up our driveway until after I shoveled the snow on our driveway. (Even tho I managed to ascend the same driveway in my RWD car, and put the car in the garage just fine, so that I could grab the Jeep to go rescue the wife)

TeknoKing

RWD = benz/bmw = suck major ass in NYC.... Most of my friends who own these 4matics and xi will agree with me... as most will call me for a ride, lol.

RWD does handle better...as it is more predicable.

But, to me the main difference between FWD and RWD is interior space. FWD will always have larger interior space because of the drive shaft.

avs007

Depends... My neighbor wrecked his AWD Audi S4 in the snow, but that's because his car came with summer tires. Even if you have FWD, if you tool around the snow with summer tires, you are pressing your luck. You'll find lots of RWD cars come with summer tires... Mine did... Get the right tires, and snow won't be an issue...

I've tried to convince many of my friends that have summer tires that they can't be driving around the winter time with summer tires, but almost all of them ignored my advice

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Im not gonna start an arguement here about FWD vs RWD in snow because im pretty sure that already happened in a different thread a few weeks ago.
I drive in snow covered Chicago streets EVERY single year I have owned FWD and RWD cars and from my actual experience RWD SUCKS in snow. I know how to drive cars to as I have owned everything from 400+hp Z06 vettes to little FWD Accords. I dont care what numbers and figures you come up with in my real world driving FWD is superior to RWD in snow.

BradE

My stock TL-S with the MXM4 stock tires on it are every bit as bad in the snow as RWD cars I've driven. The stock tires are HORRIBLE, even in a small amount of snow they have no traction what so ever.

avs007

Out of curiosity, what tires did you have on all your cars? Cuz I also own both FWD and RWD, and also drive in the snow every year, including over some decently sized hills, which are practically non-existent in Chicago.... And in my experience, RWD or FWD, it doesn't really make a difference in the snow, it's all tires...

TeknoKing

Stock Michelin's is like an inside joke of Honda Motors... yet I'm still riding on them. The grip is ok, in the snow I never hit the brake as I would skid, and the tire noise is my biggest peeve. But tires are expensive these days, let me wear out the stock first.

snake134

iTrader: (1)

honda just cheaped out on the TL because fwd is cheaper(even though it's a luxury model). japanese automakers have been known to do this. RWD>FWD all day.

SiGGy

Yes, I have to agree. With (2 season) summer tires I couldn't get a up 5 degree upward slope from a stop that had 1" of snow on it in my CLS.

I had to get a running start, and if I had to stop then start again. I was hosed.

Unfortunately this was the driveway into my garage at the time

TeknoKing

I'll take this FWD over any RWD junker! (Bugatti excluded, of course)

1070HP FWD sexyness... I was watching the show on this yesterday..amazing how smooth it went on the track.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/to...o-Jay-Leno.htm

CdTriX

i drove a rwd suv for 2-3 years, and once the snow its, i switch it into awd and that's still not going to save me from skidding.

hell, if its a down pour i switch to awd.. i had all season suv tires and they were good, but for snow, i was scared.

i hit a patch of black ice on the highway and spun out a good 3 rotations. i thought it would be dry enough for rwd to save some gas... i thought wrong.

it's all in the tires...

TeknoKing

my last car was FX45... 20s, ridiculous tire profile.. I hugged the road under any condition.. In fact I was furious that I couldn't skid this monster suv, lol. I miss the car, but I don't miss becoming best friends with the gas attendant.

Aman

1) I agree with 1.

2) If steering and hitting the gas in snowy conditions was more dangerous in a FWD car, then why are there more FWD cars than RWD cars in rally racing? Now most of it is dirt, but they're both low-traction scenarios, and I VERY rarely see RWD cars in rally racing. FWD is better for most drivers in the snow than RWD, because if you punch the gas in a RWD car while turning, you simply oversteer, and not many normal drivers know how to deal with oversteer or avoid spinning out. FWD cars don't totally wash out in the snow, I'd actually say they handle more neutrally in the snow in general.

I think everyone would agree however that the type of tire makes much more of a difference in winter driving than does the drive wheels.

FWD benefits:
1. Packaging
2. Weight

FWD disadvantages:
1. Torque steer
2. Limited power (most FWD cars don't have more than 300 hp due to torque steer and wheelspin)
3. Wheelspin
4. Understeer

RWD advantages
1. Acceleration
2. Weight distribution
3. Handling

RWD disadvantages
1. Packaging
2. Weight
3. Economy

Fuzzbutt

I watched this show also. it was a sweet looking ride when they were done but I'm pretty sure they converted it to RWD. I didn't hear if they said how much $ they had in the whole project.

dannyboy10

Would it be correct to say a 2004-2008 TL will handle better in snow versus a BMW 5-series (RWD) assuming both have the SAME model all season tires ?

Copperbottoms

Agreed. There is no argument to be made here... I would know, just check my location everyone around here drives w/studs or snow tires during the winter. I have one (One!) buddy who drives a RWD vehicle, and there's no getting around corners, up hills, or really anywhere when the weather's bad.

He has a 350Z btw, and it even has Traction Control and pretty good weight distrobution...

avs007

Perhaps it's because for the size of car that most people take rally racing, there are simply more FWD or AWD vehicles to choose from.

I wasn't saying FWD was more dangerous, I was just describing the shortcomings from a physics perspective with the front wheels doing both acceleration and steering. If you are on snow, and are turning, and accidently spin the tires by applying too much gas, hitting the curb is a very probably outcome, as a spinning tire has next to ZERO friction, so your front wheels will not be able to apply sufficient force to the ground to steer away from the curb.

Now I wasn't saying this was a certainty, I was just giving examples....

But like I was saying earlier, the tires make much more of a difference than drive wheels...

avs007

And he's probably driving on the stock summer tires. I have a G35 Coupe, which has the exact same setup. The stock Pilot Sport tires have as much traction as rolling ice cubes even when there is a dusting of snow... But with proper tires, I've managed perfectly fine, even on our hill with half a foot of snow.

avs007

What tires were they? Not all all-season tires are alike... I have Goodyear Fortera Triple Tred tires on our Jeep... I made it up our hill in 27" of snow without issues. When I was going up our hill in the middle of the storm, our hill was covered in glare ice...People were spinning out left and right. I saw lots of people forced to install chains on their car/suv to ascend our hill.... I was actually surprised that I had no problems, as I was fully expecting to get stuck... But even when I had to stop and start again, I made it up the hill with no issues.

Majofo

This reminds me of a joke:

Basically from a static position / dig.. rwd will typically get the jump with less slip. Most drivers also prefer having torque at the rear for control rather than then the front. As far as the notion that fwd > rwd in the snow.. as it was stated.. it's really all about traction.

Copperbottoms

Nope, blizzaks in the winter on his stock rims. He does fine on ordinary snowy roads, but when it's cold and the snow's dry he doesn't get around very well compared to anyone else. Ice isn't real good for him either, but I would imagine it affects any vehicle pretty much the same way...

Wet snow (like the kind I imagine your region gets) offers better traction all around.

Copperbottoms

^ I don't get the joke, btw... if you want to be all sciency about it, a force is the same no matter where it is applied.

madpoz

This was definitely converted to RWD.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...e/1563517.html

Living in Minnesota, I can attest to FWD's effectiveness in the snow. The oversteer typical in RWD cars is much more pronounced in snow. A FWD car typically has understeer, which is generally more predictable in bad weather imo.

Majofo

both fwd & rwd apply a similar force to get the car moving. How the weight & force is distributed is the difference which makes them unequal. The basic result of rwd is more weight is shifted back to the drive wheels allowing it to grab more traction, whereas on a fwd the weight is also shifted back which releases traction.. but the general argument is really about weight distribution & traction.. One is not always better than the other.

Ramrodthrusterpuppy

Absolutely! A RWD with a good set of tires and weight in the rear will perform just as well as a FWD....no problem.

RWD>FWD in any condition any day of the week. I love my TL-S and if there was only one change to make, I'd make it RWD...then it would be close to perfect and could legitimately take on BMWs, Gs and the rest. The torque steer just kills this thing!

For any type of spirited driving, RWD is the superior platform...bar none. And it'll do just fine in Winter with the proper tires. Those who claim differently just don't know any better.

Aman

BMW 135i, Honda S2000 (man, I would love to see a rally S2k), the Z, genesis...there are plenty of small rear-drive cars out there. I've only seen a Hyundai Tiburon being used as FWD rally cars, but tons of them.

That's what happens in dry conditions. I think the physics is different in dirt or snow. Dirt for sure because there's more friction, so if you're turning and applying the gas, I think it might actually help steering. That's my Grade 11 physics take on it, I may very well be wrong.

csmeance

There is already a thread like this in car talk with a ton of info and debate facts in it. Please search for it and carry on your discussion there.