Xpditor

I have noticed, when I watch the auctions of classic and exotic cars on the Speed channel, that a car is worth much more money when you have the "Build Sheet."

This sheet comes on the floor of your new TL in the front passenger side. It can be yellow or white or blue. It is like the birth certificate for your TL. It has the exact date and time it was made, which assembly line, it's build series, colors and all equipment factory installed. It is part of the "provenance" as they would say.

Since I had the dealer call me when the car came in, before they did anything, I rescued the Build Sheet which they usually just throw away. The dealer doesn't need it. Mine was wrinkled and had a piece of masking tape on it where it was attached to the dash as it went down the line. I carefully removed the tape and then steam ironed the build sheet to get the wrinkles out. I folded it in half (it's big 11" x 17") and pressed it between the pages of a big book.

I feel that some day we will look back on the 2004 Acura as we do a 1957 Chevy today. It will be a sought after Classic. Like '57 Chevys, they will go for about 50 times their original cost.

So, if you think you might need $1,750,000 in about 45 years, save the build sheet.

XP

jrogers345

Umm, didn't know about that. Only thing on floor was one of those paper floor mats.
I kept the sticker sheet from my old car which I taped back on now that I'm selling.

nauticalx1

Lol, you are joking right? Get out of your lil dream world, you are buying a mid $30,000 car not a Ferarri Enzo. Screw the build sheet, there are thousands of Tls where urs came from. Its not rare in the least bit and it will hardly be a collectors item. Get a life

-=¤willhaven¤=-

thats probably what people said about 1970 plymouth cudas. "its just a car, there are thousands of others!" then a pristine one is worth like 45k today. a convertible? forget about it!

if the TL became a classic, any original literature or parts of the packaging/manuals/etc really add to the package if you keep it for 20-30 years and sell it down the line. just like anything.

if you see two 64 fender stratocaster guitars in candy apple red on ebay, one is in mint condition with the case, and the other is in mint condition with the case and the original sales recipt and the hang tags and the original string packages etc etc etc... the one with the goodies will go for a LOT more because collectors are picky as hell.

skiluvr

"thats probably what people said about 1970 plymouth cudas. "its just a car, there are thousands of others!" then a pristine one is worth like 45k today. a convertible? forget about it!"


Willhaven, love your comment about the '70 cudas. Back in '70 my younger brother and I convinced my mom to buy a '70 cuda convertible. Even had her talked into the hemi, but there was a slight problem -- seems you couldn't get the hemi with air conditioning. Well, mom wasn't going to have a car without air so we had to "settle" for the 383 which she special ordered. In any event, as I type this that beautiful blue convertible, white interior, 383 cuda is being restored by a guy who has done a great deal of work for Bobby Rahal. Just wish the car were mine -- damn younger brother got it. Will be worth some bucks when it is done.

Also, one of my partners is a collector and has a '70 hemi cuda which makes its way around the Mopar shows from time to time. What a car!!

2004MT6TL

There is no way in hell that the TL is going to become a classic car. Not gonna happen. The TL is mass-produced vechicle which is disposible (ilterally). Cars of today (with the exclusion of high-end cars ie; Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, some high-end Mercedes & some high-end BMW's, etc.) are ment to have a life span and then be recycled into a new vechile in 15-20 years. Now, classics of the past will live on, they were not ment to be disposable.

-=¤willhaven¤=-

70 cudas and 70 chargers are my favorite oldschool cars. if i could get a 70 AAR Cuda in purple, i would die happy. but ive NEVER driven a stick shift. maybe after i learn and get more secure i can get one of these more fun muscle cars in the future.


do you think a 64 & 1/2 mustang was meant to last 30 years? do you think a majority of them werent sitting in a junk yard in the mid 90s rusting through to the dirt?

old cars are expensive because they were high in demand when they were made and because they have been kept in working order for so long. if the 2004 TL is seen as part of a "new great run" for acura, or ends up being the best of the TL series ever... then it may end up being somewhat of a classic. you never know.

Xpditor

Suit yourself. That's what they said about '57 Chevys. They were just normal good Detroit iron. Nothing exotic.

Now how in heck could you know whether or not it's going to be a collector's item in 45 years? You have a crystal ball?

Tell you what: If you're right and I'm wrong (after all: I am speculating), no harm done.

But if I'm right and you're wrong, I'll be rich and you'll still have your thumb up your @$$. :rocketwho

rets

Our electronic-full-loaded 04TL may not last longer than any other mechanical-oriented 57Chevy, but it's good to see someone has mentioned this again.

Mine never came with the car, the dealer removed it before you picked up the car.

TLGator

I see no harm in saving the build sheet if you want to. Indeed, who knows which cars will be worth money in five decades? But you've got to keep it mint for that whole time, not an easy task. I don't think I got a build sheet, and it's surely too late now (8 weeks later) to ask for it. Besides, mine's a three year lease - no collectibles in my garage.

go4heat

i dont know for a fact that the TL isnt going to be a classic, but i highly doubt it. for one, it doesnt do anything special and its not a special car really if you think about it. I mean its easily comparable to the g35, the bmw 5 series, etc. The stangs and gtos of yesteryear were one of a kind, they all had something special about them (in addition to the fact that they were 2 doors and some were convertibles). Finally, the most obvious reason i can see is that its a Japanese made car in america. Those classics are all American made cars, during the classic years of american automobiles. One reason for the high demand of those cars is that they are from the golden years of american made cars, and they are classics most notably in america. What does an american person want with a japanese car? you might say fine, a japanese person might want one, but what do they want an american edition for? to use the Fender stratocaster analogy, why do you think the "Made in Japan" versions sell for 1/50th what the made in the USA versions sell for? obviously there are a number of reasons but what makes the USA version a CLASSIC is that it was made in the USA, obviously it might be of good quality, but maserati was making cars in the 70s and those arent exactly classics.

-=¤willhaven¤=-

were there ANY japanese cars for sale in the 60s?

and mustangs werent the only hot cars that are worth money. chevelles and cudas and camaros and chargers and firebirds... you name it.

Xpditor

Do you own one? And you don't think it does anything special? It's just a run-of-the-mill cookie cutter car like a Ford Focus or a Chevy Lumina? Hmmm.
What was special about a 1950 Mercury, 1956 Ford Victoria, 1957 Chevy?

And they could very well be future classics as well. The biggest factor for collectables was their popularity both at their time and later. They looked good then and they still do. Are you aware of the record sales of Acura TLs this past month. They are very hot.

You mean like good performance, leading edge Navi, DVD-Audio. Striking good looks. A well-rounded package. Durable and reliable.

You lost me on that one. If it's made by an American Corporation (American Honda, Inc.), in an American plant in Ohio, by American workers- what makes it a Japanese car? The fact that the original seed money and maybe some design ideas came from Japan? Does that make it less American than say, the Ford trucks made in Mexico or the Chevy trucks made in Canada? The Chryslers made in Canada? At this point, I think that question is moot and getting mooter. It will have no meaning at all in 40 years at the rate we're going.

Why don't you ask the 45,000 Americans who bought a TL since last October? Then, ask the Infiniti, Lexus, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Mazda owners what the hell they wanted with a Japanese car. Wouldn't you kill for a Lexus 430SC? Don't you think that will be a future classic even though it's Japanese?

That's because people didn't like them. They weren't popular. They didn't have striking good looks, stunning performance, and weren't reliable as a brick. They weren't desirable at their prime- which is the common trait of a classic car like a '32 Ford Roadster or a 1974 Datsun 240Z. People lusted for them then and still do.

GaleForce

You, sir, have just been owned.

-=¤willhaven¤=-

another big part of this is the product line as a whole.

if they stop making the TL after this design, or if future designs arent as popular (like the new crappy mitsubishi gallants), then it will be seen as "the year to have."

like, who wants a late 70s mustang? wouldnt you rather have a 64-67? why? because the styling and quality of the car deteriorated over time. the mustangs are now making a comeback AFAIK. the 2000-2004 mustangs seem to be more popular than they used to be in previous years. and the 2005 mustang looks AWESOME (really retro, but tasteful).

do i personally think the TL will become a future collectors item? probably not. but if its as hotly desired as it is now in a couple of years. it should do OK if you keep them in good shape and they stay together.

also keep in mind, muscle cars were cut short due to the fuel crisis. it made powerful cars more rare and more expensive. if, say, in 5 years they cut the max HP from a 6cyl engine on new cars to 200 by law, it would help those slightly older cars with bigger engines keep their resale value. the power freaks would have to buy slightly older cars to keep their speed.

circumstance accounts for a lot as well...

go4heat

well xpiditor, i guess you decided you would confront me for no apparent reason, and thats fine. for the record, i have one and absolutely love it, and i guess it would be great if it became a collectors car, but i just dont think it will. now ill address your comments:

No its nothing like a ford focus or a chevy lumina. but it would be absolutely ludicrous to put it in the class of the cadillac cts-v, maserati spyder, and the audi s8. i would choose all 3 of these over the TL to be classics.

Come on, read what your saying!!! do you think classics are classics because they were "well-rounded"?????? "Oh wow i love that good old cuda, sure got some great gas mileage and had plenty of creature comforts!!!" raw power, timeless looks, and cult following are present in many of the classics. Sure you could argue that the TL has "good power," but its not a bullet. I mean to tell you the honest truth i think the WRX STi has a better chance of becoming a classic just because of its raw power and look at its popularity and cult-like following.

Oh come on, please dont act so ignorant. from your response you are obviously anything but ignorant, but you are really pushing it with this comment. Do you not agree that there is a difference between the types of cars being designed in Detroit and the ones in Tokyo??? there are many DISTINCT differences, and i believe anybody on this board would agree with me that there are American car companies (ford, chevy, pontiac) and japanese car companies (honda, toyota, subaru), as well as german (bmw, porsche) and swedish (saab, volvo) and italian (ferrarri, lambo) and british (land rover), and many more. They all have different philosophies and have diferent tendencies when it comes down to it.

Way to take my words out of context. I meant what does an american car collector in 30 years want with a japanese car? And you do have a point, the Lexus sc430 might be a classic (and actually i do have one so i wouldnt kill for one, unless of course i was in the mood to kill somebody). But what is the price tag on the sc430??? much higher than the TL. Its true there are foreign classics, but look at what they went for- ferraris, porsches, etc. Sure there are some exceptions, but for the most part in order to become a classic as an "affordable" car, at least from what history has told us, you have to be either really fast, really groundbreaking, or really american (and most of the american classics fit in to one of those categories). And please dont say the TL is groundbreaking- do you think people in 30 years will care about HFL and navi? please, things like that will NOT make a car a classic.

I actualy really like this conversation because it allows us to predict something to come and at least i know it makes me really wonder what has been the constant over the years, and i think i have come up with this- the next wave of classics will be ricers and high speed exotics (exotic includes americans like the dodge viper). If you look at what really made the classic cars, it was a) hot roddability- it was the hot thing just like the street racing culture is today, b) huge price tag- ferrari, rolls. c) stunning/revolutionary good looks- sure, the TL looks good, but dont fool yourself into thinking it has "IT". and d) pure speed- this is why i, contrary to my usual reasoning, would pick the Subaru WRX STi to be a classic- because it has raw power. This is also why the dodge viper is an obvious classic, amazing looks and raw power.

GO AHEAD BITCH BRING IT ON!!! lol

Xpditor

Go4Heat:

I had about 45 mins worth of correspondence for you but hit the wrong key and sent it into cyber Neverland.. I must be tired so I'll try again tomorrow.

1SICKLEX

This might be the worst thread I have ever read on the history of the internet...xpidtor42, please, please, PLEASE, send me some of what u are smoking.

TLGator

What's your problem? Granted there are no pics of sweet girls riding the stick shift, but this thread has a reasonably interesting discussion going on.

Worst thread ever? How about any of the 342 threads comparing the TL to some other car, most of which devolve into a childish pissing contest, and many of which feature your repetitious comments.

savageTL

"Why don't you ask the 45,000 Americans who bought a TL since last October?"

Therein lies the rub. Show me a car built in the last 50 years that over 50k were made in a model year that reaps huge (adjusted for inflation and taking out cost to own for that period of time) profits and is a serious collectors car, particularly if it has been regularly driven. The muscle cars that are in high demands are ones that have a combination of rare options and have been driven very little OR have had very expensive restorations.

The TL will not be a collectors item (well maybe in 300 years as a novelty of the IC engine era), the only Acura produced thus far that has a shot is the NSX, of those my uneducated guess would be the Zanardi special edition, I think it was called.

Vandy

PS no harm in keeping the build sheet, that might help show a buyer assuming you sell it, that you are VERY anal about the car.

2004MT6TL

I purchased the TL as an investment.













not really

roadman

Saving the build sheet - - - No problem
Keeping an '04 TL in showroom condition for 25yrs - - - No Problem
Keeping a set of EL-42s on this car for 25 yrs - - - Insane

vtec187

This has got to be a joke, the TL ia a great car but I'd bet my last dollar it will NEVER be considered a classic.

jake4man

I work at a Honda dealer and we get calls all day from people looking for Honda Civic Hatchbacks from the early to late 90's. I'm sure no one thought that would be a hot car years later.

DMZ

Really? Know anyone looking for one of these?

http://www.thisoldhonda.org/ads_detail.php?ID=36

Hybrid

It's not impossible for it to become a classic, but there are many factors against it. Among them:

It's a 4-door "family car". Sports cars and 2-doors have a better chance.
We can expect that models in future years will be BETTER than the TL (both new TLs and competitors). After that, the TL won't stand out. Why want to own the "older" model? (Look at the last few generations of BMW 3-series as a comparison)
There's lots and lots of electronics in the TL, like most competitors. Who's going to be able to fix that in 30 years when it's completely obsolete. DVD player? Ancient Navi system? Compare that to the collector cars from the 60's/70's and older. Part of their collectibility comes from their simplicity and in some ways "timelessness."
Just the expense of maintaining the 100's of electronic/safety systems, etc. as the car gets older. Compare that to the simplicity of today's collector cars.

Xpditor

Vandy:

The point you are missing is that classic cars are not muscle cars, although some are. Classic cars are not the most expensive cars, although some are.
Classic cars are not the rarest, although some are rare. Some of the most popular classic cars were quite ordinary in their time. And in their time, no one had the slightest idea that some day they would be valuable collector cars. I am sure that owners of 1950 Mercurys, various Edsels, Studebaker Hawks, Ford 350GTs, etc. did not know their cars would someday be classic collectables.

One thing they seem to have in common- and that is what I am attempting to identify- commonalities- is that they had a passionate following at the time. Sometimes it was their timeless styling that just was the right combination like a 1957 Chevy. An everyday car, not a muscle car, not expensive, not a sports car. This is the car I compared the TL with. You notice the thread title has a question mark. I am not saying it definitely WILL be a classic- only that it has some of the earmarks of one and that it is possible. I would offer as some proof the fact the you and I and many other people are fascinated with it and parted with $35,000 to own one. Just perusing this forum will show you the kind of lust and devotion that is not typical of most new car buyers. While the affection endure over the years? I think it's possible.

Another error I think you make in your analysis is that you are judging future events by past experience. You talk about production numbers as if they are static. You don't consider that in 45 years or so, the poplulation will probably double, whites will be a minority in America, and car production numbers will increase accordingly. You should think out of the box and put the principles of car collecting to use.

It's a crap shoot at best. I'm not suggesting we store our TLs in a nitrogen sealed container. I'm saying that it would be good to save the MSRP and other documents like the Build Sheet as it doesn't cost anything and it might increase the value of the car far down the road. If it doesn't, no harm done. It didn't cost you anything.

Just as you point out that I can't say the TL will be a classic, you can't say that it won't be. Maybe in 1957 there were two guys having this same conversation about their Bel Air convertables at the corner beer joint.

XP

go4heat

Oh come on, i could start a thread that says "MY TL WILL SPROUT WINGS AND FLY AWAY!?!" and have a whole argument ready and then say "oh there was a question mark at the end please dont argue with me!" the bottom line is that you started something that is completely illogical and now you get to face the :tflamer:.

Also, that kind of lust and devotion can be found anywhere. Look on almost any other car forum and youll find something similar, and ask g35 owners and see what they say. I am saying right now that this car has no chance of becoming a "classic." it may be a collectors item just because it is from 2004, because somebody wants to relive their tl days, who knows. But it wont be selling at auctions for a couple million $$. well maybe in a couple centuries, but not in the next 30 years. sorry just not going to happen.

Xpditor

go4heat:

I can understand that you are 16 years old and that Mom lets you drive the TL and that Dad has a red Lexus SC430 that he lets you drive once in a while on South Beach. I also understand, because I was once 16, that you put a high premium on horsepower as is evident in your love for the WRX STi. I even tried to understand when you wanted to put a hood scoop on the new TL even before it was delivered in the begining of March. (That was too much of a stretch for me- sorry)

I'm not engaging in a game of "gotcha". The thread title is what it is and always has been. My position is the same as it has been: IMO, the TL has some of the earmarks of a future classic

As you mature, your criteria for a "classic" or desirable older car will probably change. I wouldn't be surprised to see you at the auction in 40 years bidding your butt of for the perfectly preserved 2004 TL just like the one my family used to have.

Time will tell.

While you're so sure the TL won't be a classic- don't forget to figure in what the value of a dollar will be in 40 years. A million won't be that much. I fugured in terms of multiples of original price that current, ordinary car classics (non-exotics) are actually bringing at auction. Fact, not speculation. Do you have any reason to think that trend won't continue? I think it will.

1SICKLEX

THe TL and most all Japanese luxury cars WILL NOT be classics. What makes it special? Nothing. It's major selling point is "value". That is not the makings of a classic car. The classic market took a major HIT in the late 80s/90s. The market flunctuates. If ANY Acura is a classic, look no further than the aluminum built, low volume, NSX. That can be considered a classic. After that, maybe, just maybe the 1995 Acura Legend Coupe with the TypeII engine and 6 speed manual.

Hell, I like Lexus but shit, ain't no classic. Only, and only a longshot is the original SC 300/400.

The TL has a better chance of being a classic than us finding weapons of mass destruction on the freaking moon.

digital_b

since some people here think that history started yesterday why dont you no minds tell us how many mustangs were sold in 64 and 65? I think just a couple more than tls this year.

1SICKLEX

They sold 400,000 mustangs it's first year. But not ALL are classics. Now the Shelby 350GT is a classic. But not any Mustang.

And the MUSTANG changed the game. It was cheap, looked good and when larger engines were dumped in it was a beast. I believe starting at 2300 dollars. Everyone wanted a Mustang back then. So with high DEMAND it can be considered a classic.

go4heat

OOOH lovely now this has become a personal attack on xpeditor's part...thats just spectacular. I'm starting to find your ignorance kind of funny, because you seem to be trying to convince everybody that im just a stupid kid who doenst know anything...haha thats great everybody get a good laugh. For clarification- i dont have any "love" for the WRX STi, i simply think it has a better chance of beoming a classic than the TL. Personally i dont like it at all, i think cars with such a premium on performance and such a lack of interior comfort arent worth buying unless maybe as weekend drivers or something. But if you look at the trend, one of the biggest pulls of the classic muscle cars of the 60s and 70s is that they can still haul ass today, even with their original engines, and thats amazing because theyre 30 years old. Youd think the technology would be outdated, but people love getting back into the seat of a dodge charger and listening to the engine roar just like it did back in the day. The TL isnt that, not by any means. Sure, it has a magnifient interior, but that doenst matter when it comes to classics- if you cared enough about accuracy you shouldnt give two shits about a cheap interior, and if you cared enough about comfort you would have the car reupholstered or just buy a modern car with all the toys.

As for looks, the TL doesn't have a classic look. You can say "oh but it looks so nice" as much as you want, but bottom line is nobody cares. A classic has a look that cant be copied and is hard to top. Thats why i sort of disagree with 1SICKLE when he says the sc430 wont be a classic, because it has a specific look that people like, and nobody can just go and copy that look. If honda tomorow came out with a car that looked just like the SC430, people would start throwing around "they copied lexus" and there would be lawsuits, etc. If someone made a car that looked like the TL, we would probably be reduced to martial law on this forum, but besides that nobody would care. Its a car, and it looks like a car.

actually funny you should say that, i heard north korea has a dynamite space program....

JRock

Dude, in the age of the Internet a vast majority of cars have a passionate following by enthusiast owners. Look around.

No one will give a crap about the TL in ten years. Technology will assure that. BlueTooth, DVD Audio, those will be things of the past or so common that Civics and Hyundais will have them. The rest of the car has nothing very special about it. 270hp is already close to average for entry-level luxury sports sedans, FWD is considered by many "enthusiasts" to be a negative, and it's really just a great daily driver type car. Nothing about it will be "classic". It only took five model years for the last generation TL to run its course and sales to fall off sharply.

I don't see this one being much different, especially since the previous generation TL stayed at MSRP for two or three years and on wait lists, where as this TL was being discounted within three months of its release.

Besides, unless you plan on trailering it home from the dealership, draining all the fluids, and letting it sit in mothballs, yours certainly won't be worth very much.

kilrb

I'm curious as to who will keep their TL long enough to find out? I mean, come on. Did anyone buy this car for any other reason than to drive it? I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to be dying for the next TL in four or five years, and this one's going to be SOLD!

As far as speculation goes, I think my Dad did well in buying an '00 Prowler. There are 2,000 of his color made, with a total run from '97 to '03 of just over 11,000 cars. I think if you are going to buy now with hopes of having a collectible in 40 years, buy something like that; it's a safer bet. Sure, the TL could hit it big, but I wouldn't want to invest my time/money in that bet.

Gilgamesh

I want some of whatever you guys are smoking. NO CAR produced today short of cars like the Enzo, Ford GT, Carerra GT, Ford Cobra, (if they don't screw it up with too many) et. al. will EVER be classics, not even cars like the M5 and E55, etc. They are high demand, but they are also mass produced, yes I know AMG's motors are handbuilt...still

Even then those cars mentioned above will have a hard time being regarded like some of the old GT40's, Cobra's, Ferrari GTO's, '63 Split Window Corvette's.

If we are talking about production cars making it as classics, try to nail down the last C5 rolling off the line, or a Z06 Speical Ed. or the first C6 to roll off the line...enjoy your bidding war. Even then...fat chance if you get just one of the many coming off the lines, you gotta get the first or last if you want to be halfway special. And there are a LOT more TL's coming off the line than Corvettes, sticking with our particular example.

Xpditor

No. It became personal when you said to me: "Oh come on, please dont act so ignorant." You pulled the pin on that grenade. Although I prefer a gentlemanly debate, I am perfectly able to mud wrestle if that's what you want. Maybe we can start over?

I, for one, think you are an unusually bright kid or I wouldn't be wasting my time talking with you. As to what other people think, I suppose they will come to their own conclusions based on your postings since that's all they have to go by. My message just summarized what you have said in previous posts.

I also, like you, have an appreciation for the old muscle cars. However, a person posted a page from Hot Rod magazine in 1968 or '69 when they tested a Hemi Road Runner and a 440 Magnum. I was stunned to see that the TL (and Maxima and G35) test out both faster and quicker than those cars with testers and equipment aboard. I remember them as being horrendously fast. I had a 435HP 427 Corvette (1966) and actually had girls faint when I got on it and spun a few donuts.

However, those are just one eclectic segment of the classic car genre. There are many, many, ordinary cars- not fast or expensive- that are sought after by collectors.

Your turn.

meathead

uncanny foresight. will you start a mutual fund for me please?

go4heat

well im glad you had the forsight to apologize and propose we start anew, but your foresight may be lacking in other areas .

Ok first of all, i would expect the modern cars to be faster. The old cars weighed consistently around 1000 lbs more than modern cars, and engine technology has undoubtedly improved. What im saying is that the attraction is the fact that a) they were the quickest around back then b) bone stock they could compete with todays mass produced technologically advanced cars and c) they have a flavor of uniqueness that is definately not present in the TL.

Also the part about the donuts with the fainting chicks, who were hopefully attractive, and you hopefully took advantage of, is exactly what the TL doesnt have that the classics did have. Who the hell takes their 35k Acura TL out and does donuts with some girls in the passengers seat? I know i dont, i do other things with girls in the passenger seat... ...bottom line is this car is not the same thing that the classics were...the closest parallel i can see in a japanese car is something like the Subaru WRX STi, because its made for that kind of thing. the TL is made for cruising in comfort with classical DVD-A music blaring (or lil jon in my case :devil: ).

I have to go and im pretty much out of stuff to say since ive made most of my points in my previous posts...so i guess your turn.

Formula 350

I have read the beginning of this thread, but do not agree with the supposition.

The old cars mentioned, especially the cuda are limited in availability on the high priced ones. I remember reading that there was one Cuda that had only 6 made with the options that people wanted as a collector.

The TL is cookie cutter.... no major ability to option it out from the factory. You get your choice of color and transmission.

This will not be a classic car in the future (except maybe in a few hundred years when no cars are available).