TLTrance

I've been thinking over the last few days as to what kind of driving styles could result in excessive wear of the transmission (and related parts).

My tranny is basically almost dead, and when I think back, I've never been a hard driver. The only thing I can think of is that I tend to feather the gas pedal (light push) when accelerating from a full stop. In doing so, I noticed that the car takes longer to shift. During the few times I put a bit more oomph into the pedal, the car would shift very quickly, without any hesitation during the shifts.

The "hardest" shifts when feathering the gas pedal are from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3.

Is it reasonable to suspect/conclude that I subjected the tranny to premature wear and tear by driving more like a granny instead of a hot-footed teen?

Complete conjecture of mine, and I'm not sure if it's correct.. What do yo guys think?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

interested to see the results.
I cant contribute as I have a 6mt.

mendieta007

Hmmmmm.. I've come to that same conclusion, although I just recently purchased a 2008 TL-Type S AT with 44,000 miles and can feel the trans shift diff when I barely press the gas Vs giving it some power? Maybe its the way the transmission shifts the power?

AcRightLINY

Really good point. Almost as if maybe we're supposed to be beating the car up if you want to call it that. I know exactly what you're talking about. Hopefully innacurate or IHC can chime in.

Red Voodoo

It could be a seat-of-the-pants feel, but I've noticed that when I'm doing my city driving in manual mode, the car produces a smoother shift most of the time. I shift into 3rd about 35mph, 4th about 45mph, and 5th at 50 or 55mph. Like the OP, I'm light on the pedal the majority of the time and don't get too aggressive behind the wheel due to skyrocketing fuel prices.

RealSteiner

I have noticed the same thing with my TL and I don't believe it's bad.

04 TL 5AT

Maybe some racing ATF?

dwb993

iTrader: (13)

I don't think it has as much to do with how you drive, but how the trans is maintained.
If you put 80K on the factory fill Z1 and original 3/4 switches, your shit will fail (it seems).
I read an article the other day that said the faster you accelerate up to speed, the more mpg you average, since minor adjustments in speed take little to no gas. I don't drive like a drag car racer, but I'm no Grandpa, either. My average is between 23-25MPG with a 80/20% ratio highway/city driving. I have been pleased with this car.

LoveMyTL-S

I do noticed when accelerating slowly the transmission shifts HARDER. When giving it more gas it shifts smoother. Which is the way I normally drive, but not flooring it. Interested to know if driving TOO slow is actually bad for the transmission.

TLTrance

Funny for two completely different reasons:

1. I did put about 80K on the factory fill, and then swapped the ATF out for Z1.. twice.. Ugh. So in this case, funny because it's exactly like you said...

2. My shit DID fail. EFFING A! I seriously did have a laugh just now.. thinking about "shit failing"... You know when people say "that's good shit"... Perhaps what I've experienced is the most vile diarr... instead of normal logs of s... okay, I'll stop..

I'm trying to not get too upset about this, yet -- I'll reserve any anger depending on what ACS tells me.

HighRevving

I am not a transmission specialist (come to think of it I am not a specialist in anything it seems) but often systems that transact from one state to a 'higher' state expect few conditions to be satisfied to allow for the state transition. Maybe in addition to the RPM value, the rate by which the RPMs are increasing also matters. For example, the Porsche enthusiasts recommend that shifting up thru lower gears has to be with done 'determinedly' to increase the life span of the transmission internals..

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

Same here, might be the fluid Type F, when I drive slower like from a stop light to another one I notice it shifts harder like that thump kinda feeling, but when I'm more agressive and going through the gears accelerating it shifts perfect.

wise_optimist

I agree as well. I can definitely feel harder shifts when feathering gas pedal (if it does), but doesn't feel any hard shift at all when being more assertive with gas pedal.

Mug

I feel harder shifts too when shifting with slow acceleration. In fact, in stop and go traffic, I just leave the car in manual mode. You can even put it in second at a stop and stay in that gear while in gridlock traffic. The way I look at it is if it shifts less, it will last longer.

RealSteiner

erdoc48

Any chance that at this time using a Type F fluid and new switches would help now (this is assuming Acura won't help with the cost of a replacement transmission- if Acura will give a new unit at no cost then by all means that's the way to go)? How did it behave at the time of failure (typical lights of the TCS/ D5 light) + slipping?

Also, what year is your TL (quite a few of the 04's had transmission failure issues, so that's some ammunition for ACS to get your tranny fixed gratis)

Thanks for any information/ updates.

JTK21351

I have to say, I notice the same thing. It might just be that the car handles gear changes better at higher RPMs. I also happen to be one of the "hot-footed teens" you mentioned haha

AcRightLINY

I think that the moral of this story is that the TL is evil, and deserves to be punished!

TLTrance

I think switching to a Type F fluid is not going to help much anymore. Clearly the clutch packs and/or torque converter are f'd.

For details on what happened "during" the failure, see here: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/car-wont-move-822946/

Interesting thing is that this is the second time slipping has occurred, but this time the stalling that accompanied it was MUCH worse. The car clearly is NOT safe to drive as it stands now. Hence, I won't drive it until I need to take it to a dealership after I call ACS.

I have a 2005 5AT TL. I've maintained this car very well, and I have every receipt/service document since the birth of this car. The culprit, as everyone knows, is the lame Z1 fluid from Honda. I've supposedly did a 3x3 around 80K miles (probably too late -- some damage already done). The fluid turned dirty very quick, to the point where the 2nd dealership that I went to suspected that the first did not even do the 3x3 -- most likely a 1x3.

I did "another" 3x3 (with Z1 unfortunately -- I wasn't educated on why this fluid sucks so bad until later, although I was vocal about my concerns about the transmission very early on before failure) with the 2nd dealership at 93K miles. Fast forward to today (106K miles), and what I have now is a car that won't even drive forward many times. The engine would work just fine, but there will be no transfer of the power to turn the wheels.

TLTrance

And yes, I think giving a more assertive press of the pedal is the way to go. It might cost a tiny bit more in gas over time, but I do think slow gear shifts (i.e. shifts occuring at lower or more slowly changing RPMs) is a BIG contributor to the failure of the tranny.

umakemekissu

IMHO TL trans are designed to be this way, smoother shifts with faster acceleration. It's a midsize sport sedan after all.

I personally also experience the harsher shifts with light acceleration (~1500 RPM) as many of you have. But it shifts really smooth if accelerated over ~2000RPM. Not much of a difference in term of RPM, won't hurt MPG but would help the trans.

I hate cars

Think about the way an auto works... All gears are constanly in mesh with one another. No actual "shifting" occurs. This is oversimplifying it but each set of gears has a clutch pack or band and drum that goes with it. A shift is nothing more than one clutch pack releasing and another applying. Timing is essential. If an upshift is occuring and the next gear applies before the current gear releases you get a bind and the car feels like it loses power or even worse "brakes". If the current gear's clutches release before the next gear applies, you get a flare. Timing is very important since auto trans clutches are not made to slip like a manual. Just a second or two of slip is all it takes to destroy them.

Now add power to this equation. Imagine driving a manual trans. You let the clutch out quicker if you're giving it a lot of throttle vs taking off slow with very little throttle.

Hydraulic pressure determines how hard and quick the clutches apply and the ECU controls it. Pressure is ramped up according to throttle. The goal is to have the shifts feel close to the same all the way from low throttle to full throttle.

If hydraulic pressure was not increased as you give it more throttle, shifts would be super soft and the clutches would slip excessively.

If you had "full throttle" hydrualic pressure at low throttle, it would shift very harsh, probably chirp the tires.

One demonstration was when I turned the boost all the way off on my turbo car. It went from 602rwhp to about 170hp. Shifts were brutally harsh with only 170hp. The trans goes by throttle position. At half throttle it was expecting 400+lbs of torque to be going through it and what it was getting was about 100lbs. The clutches engaged with enough force to handle 400lbs without slipping and without being too harsh but it was way too much with only 100lbs. It's the same thing with the TL, the ECU only guesses how much line pressure it needs.

The ECU more or less guesses how much to raise the pressure to maintain shift quality throughout the throttle range. Some TLs shift harder at low throttle, some shift harder at full throttle. Mine shifts nice and easy at part throttle and firms up with more throttle which is what you want.

You can get away with slighly softer shifts at low throttle since there's not as much power being put through the clutches. However, you want fast, snappy shifts as you give it more gas.

Let's not forget, quicker shifts (sometimes harder) produce less wear. Soft sloppy shifts will wear the clutches out quicker.

Old 3rd and 4th gear switches are a huge contributor to soft meduim to full throttle shifts and resulting trans failures.

TLTrance

So if I'm interpreting IHC's comments correctly, quicker shifts do in fact produce less wear, and quicker shifts are made possible by giving it more gas...

Looks like a huge live and learn opportunity here... I'll certainly be much more mindful of the brand/make of ATF I use, the age of the pressure switches, and how I drive from a full stop. Too bad I'm learning the hard way like a lot of ppl here...

I hate cars

Yep, quicker shifts always produce less wear. In the racing world it's always a balance between long life and parts breakage from too hard of shifts. You want the shifts as quick as possible without breaking the tires free or breaking parts from the shock. Obviously in the TL you don't have to worry about parts breakage from hard shifts.

One other thing to consider in regards to driving an auto and mpg. The torque convertor becomes more efficient the more throttle you give it. It has 100% slip when you're sitting still at a redlight with a little drag on the engine. Give it some throttle and it becomes more efficient and moves the car with less slippage. You obviously don't want to race from every redlight for best mpg but going about your business and getting up to speed in a reasonable time is better than driving super easy just slipping the convertor with an auto. Plus, once you're up to speed, the torque convertor locks and you have no slip just like a manual.

TLTrance

Definitely good to know. The MPG difference is probably quite small and over the life time of the car I rather have a tranny that's still kickin...

I'll have to teach my wife to drive the same way as well once I get the tranny replaced.

IHC: Do you recommend driving in manual mode while in stop-and-go traffic?

RealSteiner

NooB question = If you floor it from.. let's say 2nd and let of slowly before the 3rd gear change (knowledge of gear ratios) and it shifts super softly but you can feel a little slippage -Idk if it's slippage or not- on the throttle.. is that bad?

5AT btw

I know slippage is bad, but it shifts softly? Easy on the trans or not?

lucnex

iTrader: (3)

hmmm, I think I may need to change out these pressure switches...how long do people typically go before changing them out and doing the 3x3? I know its in a thread somewhere, but hopefully someone can give me a simple answer without having to search!

I thought it was around like 75K or something?

I have an 05 AT with 44k, yea I pretty much drive nowhere

vietxquangstah

iTrader: (7)

alot of different people will tell you different things.

i got a 08 with only 40k miles and i plan on doing my 3x3 with redline racing and pressure switches soon. after i do this 3x3 i told myself i was gonna change the ATF every 20k and the switches every 30k

but i've seen people on here recommend to change the switches every 60k and atf 50k+...