MyGuti

Hey guys, I am running into an issue after having a clutch job done on my vehicle, hoping to get a bit more insight on here before spending more money on parts. I've done a bit of research and come across some common problems other members have experienced. Here's a break down of what I'm experiencing.

Some background info:
Car is at 131,xxx miles and clutch recently started to slip. I had the following parts replaced/repaired:
Clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, rear main seal, throw out bearing, pilot bearing.

At the same time, I had a modified slave cylinder (check valve delete removed) installed at the time.

The symptoms I am experiencing now are:
Car does not engage into gear unless there are multiple pumps of the pedal. Often, if driving in any given gear for some time, and when needing to upshift or downshift, the clutch pedal will need to be pumped before the car will engage into the required gear.

Obviously it's made driving the car not enjoyable at all. Even when first starting the car, the clutch pedal needs to be pumped in order for the required gear to be engaged. The clutch does not have any other symptoms (no pedal sticking).

The engagement point has changed to being much closer to the floor, but I read that is common after installing a new clutch (can anyone confirm?)

The tech had advised me of the clutch being needed to be pumped before I went to retrieve the car. They are saying it's the master cylinder that needs to be replaced. I figured, I'd come on here first to see if any members have some troubleshooting I can try.

I contacted the shop to ensure they bled the clutch fluid, and they advised me that the system was bled twice by them. They are a pretty experienced shop, and are well versed in Japanese vehicles. That being said, I know it's a common issue with these cars if air gets into the lines.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe I modded the new slave cylinder incorrectly? Although I followed the DIY on here and it isn't a difficult mod at all....just been brainstorming on where to start my troubleshooting.

I was thinking of maybe putting in the old slave cylinder and seeing if the problem persists, but I would most likely need the shop to do it and that would include me paying them for their time. Wondering if there is any other things I can try? Thanks in advance!

BROlando

This sounds like a hydraulic issue. Either its a fluid leak (internal or external), or a hydraulic adjustment issue, or air in the lines.

I would not drive the car until its fixed.

These are the steps (in order) for diagnosis. Assuming nobody has tried to adjust the hydraulics yet (?)

Check the master cylinder fluid level.
Look for fluid leaks. Fix any fluid leaks.

Bleed the system.

Still having an issue?

It could need a new master cylinder or slave cylinder.
If a new master cylinder is installed, it needs to be adjusted per the factory spec after installation. Meaning...make sure its properly adjusted for freeplay. Do not adjust the pedal height. Only the hydraulic actuation point needs to be adjusted.

Seperately (not related to your issue) I hope they used a self adjusting clutch tool to do this clutch job.

BROlando

If this problem was not there before you had your clutch done....

Two things changed hydraulically.

The new slave cyl.
And the system was bled due to installation of the slave cyl.

One of those two is the most likely culprit.

The chance of your master cyl going out at the same time is slim, but also possible.

Its advisable to change the master/slave cyls at the same time.

MyGuti

So not driving the car until the issue is resolved is unfortunately not possible. It's my commuter and I need it daily. I can get by with the way the clutch needs to be currently pumped during shifts, I'm a pretty experienced manual driver (driven manuals my whole life), so Ill be sure to shift as best as possible and not cause any damage.

There isn't any fluid leaks, if there was, the tech would have advised me. They did a comprehensive inspection as I had asked them to, complete with pics and I had an opportunity to go over the report prior to picking up the car.

I think I'll most likely have the master cylinder changed. I can't help but think that I messed up the modification to the new slave when doing the valve delete. The problem wasn't there at all prior to the clutch job, so that to me points to either the new slave or have air in the lines. I will double check with the tech that they used a self adjusting tool

truonghthe

with the new clutch your engagement is closer to the floor is normal, I can confirm that is the same situation in my KBP as well.

How is your clutch Hydraulic line looks? I would last look at the master cylinder as a very last suspect. I would check for the line and connection, when you did your delete check valve. Did you score the valve bore?

MyGuti

Thanks for the info about the clutch engagement changing. That helps alleviate that concern.

When I did the valve delete, I simply took the black piece out and then put back the remaining components. Not sure what you mean by "score the valve bore"?

this is the thread I referenced for the mod: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...linder-967640/

BROlando

No...a master cylinder issue will also cause a low pedal engagement point and difficult gear changes.

It simply means you are not able to disengage the clutch.

The only thing responsible for clutch disengagement is the hydraulics.

MC, lines, and SC are all suspect for hydraulic issues. And also adjustment

If the clutch itself is preventing disengagement due to a broken component, the pedal will almost always feel normal. There won't be a bunch of freeplay at the top of the pedal like I'm betting the OP has.

OP...is there a lot of "slop" in the clutch pedal when you push it?

MyGuti

the pedal feels very light compared to before. the engagement point is very low to the ground and seems to even have a smaller window than before. if that makes any sense.
today, before pulling it out of the garage, I could not get it to engage in first after starting it up. took 10+ pumps of the pedal.
The symptom of having to pump the clutch continued throughout my commute...I will be parking the car after today and taking the wifes truck for the remainder of my work week.
Going to call the shop and schedule it in for the master cylinder replacement. Car is simply dangerous to drive like this and obviously not enjoyable.

Why I keep thinking that I messed up the slave cylinder modification or that there is air in the lines is simply due to the fact that this problem was non-existent prior to the clutch job.
The shop drove the car 4km, (~1.5 -2 Miles) after the clutch job. I doubt the MC went out in that time.....
All inputs and suggestion are greatly appreciated. This has been quite the ordeal (quite the back story of how my clutch ended up getting blown)

BROlando

checking the fluid level in the reservoir is very easy. So is filling it up if its low.

MyGuti

So noticed something on the drive home today.

Once I got the car in 1st gear and moving (15+ clutch pumps), the car would shift to subsequent gears as long as I revved at about 3k rpm or higher. I usually try and shift at 2.5-2.7, and those shifts wouldn't allow the car go into higher gear. I had much better consistency with the higher rpm shifts.....does that point to anything?

I also noticed if I revved in neutral and then shifted into the desired gear, it would also have better consistency of actually going into gear. First gear, no matter what was very difficult to engage

ACURAte_tiTLe

A very light clutch pedal and needing pump the pedal to shift definitely sounds like a clutch hydraulics issue causing the clutch to not fully disengage.

Very possible there's still air somewhere in the system. I recall wasting a weekend and a gallon of brake fluid trying to bleed the clutch after replacing my slave cylinder (I did the check valve delete too). The traditional 2 person and gravity bleed methods didn't work. The pedal would stiffen up but no matter how many times I repeated the bleed procedure I was unable to shift into 1st or reverse unless I rapidly pumped the clutch. Ended up having to rent a vacuum (or pressure I can't remember) bleeder kit from autozone to get the remaining air out. Even then, it took me several attempts before the clutch was fully back to normal.

MyGuti

Im calling the shop today to ask them to re-bleed the system. Your first gear and reverse gear symptoms are exactly as mine.
Won't be driving the car until I take it in for the repair now, could there be damage caused from driving the car in its current state?

BROlando

Yes, you are putting wear on the synchros by using the car in its current state.

The reason it slots into gears 2 and up if you rev it is that you're manually synchronizing the engine to the trans by revving it to the right speed.

However, if you shift like normal (without matching input/output shaft rev speed manually), you're asking the synchro to do a LOT of work because the clutch is not fully disengaged due to your hydraulic issue.

MyGuti

got the car booked in on Wednesday next week for the master cylinder replacement. They will have to re-bleed the clutch fluid after the job...so if problem persists, I've told them to re-install the old non-modified slave. If problem goes away, then I know it was the MC the whole time.
fingers crossed

Ltfa182

From what it sounds like, your solution to replace the CMC is going to fix it. I had this issue last year and battled with it for awhile. I ended up doing the clutch, flywheel, CMC, Slave Cyl, and even had to buy a new clutch pedal because the bracket broke. Personally, I don't think the clutch engagement point should be closer to the floor as you mentioned. Thats what happens when your clutch is worn from my experience. I adjusted my clutch pedal to factory specs and it definitely engages higher than what you're describing. You might want to look into that too after you get the hydraulic issue resolved. This is obviously less urgent

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Back to what Brolando said,
check your fluid level...if it isn't low, you probably don't have a leak...
I want to say I'm still on the original master in the blue car and it's at 240K...
with that said, if you don't limit fork travel when bleeding the system on these cars, you won't get all the air bled out of the lines.
How high or low you grab is also because of the self adjusting clutch we have and realistically you should also take a look at the stop
and throw of your physical clutch pedal (my buddy that I bought the car back from never adjusted that after a new clutch and he ended up burning up a
second clutch because even when he let off it was still putting slight pressure on the pedal)...

Air in the lines has to be your issue and the shop should not have sent you on your way with it demonstrating that behavior...they clearly aren't familiar with
the platform. It has it's quirks...

MyGuti

I'll check the fluid, but I don't think there is any leaks.
I agree that the master cylinder probably shouldn't have gone out at this mileage, the car has been babied. However, the whole reason for the clutch slipping and needing replacing is due to some other person driving the vehicle, who was not authorized to do so, nor knew how to drive a manual transmission vehicle, let alone one of our TL's. (quite the story)

I agree and think the shop probably missed the air in the lines, but seeing as they will be re-bleeding the system after the master cylinder job, if the problem persists, then we know its because lines weren't bled correctly.
I'll mention the little quirks about the bleeding process to the shop, and hopefully after the job my car drives as it should.

Thanks for the tip about the stop and throw of the pedal, I will also mention this to them.
I agree they probably shouldn't have returned the car back to me in its current state, however, I had told them I wanted it back and wanted to conduct my own research prior to authorizing the job for the master cylinder.

Thanks again for the tips and input, I'll be sure to update here once the MC gets replaced.

BROlando

master cylinders go out due to age and lack of maintenance.

Hard shifting won't do virtually anything to the MC's lifespan.

Clutch and brake fluids need to be flushed at least once every 2 years. Or the system will start to rot from the inside out. The fluid absorbs moisture.

If you haven't maintained the fluid, the softest shifting by the softest man in the world won't help you.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

sure thing, man...
also, consider the em2 master cylinder upgrade...it is also missing the checkvalve so you'll be entirely checkvalve free.
J.

https://www.heeltoeauto.com/hydrauli....mc553-17.html

MyGuti

Can this be paired with the other stock components?

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

LOL...
brother, it's a very simple hydraulic system...
you can apple or pear with anything you want.

Seriously though, oem has checkvalve in master and slave, right? You removed slave checkvalve, em2 has same design but no checkvalve in the master like the TL comes with.
I actually did the swap on my black TL that I owned for 2 years recently...it isn't fun but it's doable and made the car feel a LOT more like my S2000 a far as direct engagement of clutch.

MyGuti

will ask the shop tomorrow if they can get one locally in time for Wednesday.

Ltfa182

Let us know how it goes!

MyGuti

A little bit of an update, most of it good, some of it weird.

The good:
So master cylinder replacement was completed today. Master cylinder job replacement fixed the symptoms I was experiencing beforehand. But I gotta get used to the new clutch now and 1st to 2nd shifts are like a rookie.

Clutch grabs hard though and car drives as it should. Was able to get the clutch pedal adjusted to a better level. Not perfect, but its much much better than where it was before. So big thanks for mentioning that



The weird:
I had noticed a sound at start-up the day AFTER the initial clutch job and slave cylinder job. It is important to mention that this sound was not prevalent prior to the clutch/slave cylinder job.

The noise is very audible when car is cold, this is also the reason why I didn’t hear it after picking up the car after the job was completed. Car’s temp was simply not cold enough.

I tested something this morning during initial startup, and when clutch pedal is depressed during this sound, it disappears. It is quite loud….but it goes away after a few seconds (5-8 seconds). It definitely sounds like a rotational sound and leads me to believe it’s a pulley

So fast forward. I tell the tech I want the master cylinder delay valve removed (if he can figure out how to do it). I looked online here and couldn't find a DIY for the mod. Also, I asked him to check if he can hear the sound. I had dropped the car off after a long 45 minute drive. So it was unlikely he would hear it as car wouldn't be cold enough.

Job gets completed and I go back to pick up the car. Tech tells me he couldn't figure out how to remove the delay valve in the MC, and even asked another guy that's supposedly knowledgeable and both didn't know how to. I don't think they tried overly hard.

Anyways, tech tells me he used a stethoscope to listen in and could hear a very faint noise. I quote: ". Use stethoscope and listen to noise. Very slight noise coming from inside transmission when engine at idle in neutral and goes away when pressing clutch pedal down. Suspect input shaft bearing in transmission noise. Recommend confirm noise when vehicle cold and noise more prominent."

I know it's not a lot to go off, I’m trying to compress the video file I recorded of the noise today to upload here. Will get it uploaded tomorrow, but I want your guys input. I'm not too familiar with the hydraulic system or bearings in the transmission.

I do not think its anything problematic within the transmission itself, to me it just sounds like a pulley. My guess is that during the clutch replacement, they must’ve removed a pulley? And now its that same pulley making noises?

MyGuti

Was able to get it uploaded.
When leaving from work today, I also noticed another detail...
again on a cold start, when the noise appeared, even the slightest touch of the clutch pedal made it go away. I'm talking about putting very little weight on the pedal. Then eventually it went away on its own as shown in the video.

truonghthe

The $100 question is did you used OEM throw out bearing and pilot bearings? the one come with LUK kit looks suspicious as hell. Base on the sound its sound like the bearing issue, either didn't get enough grease on the release bearing or something rubbing against the trans.

Ltfa182

First, I’m so glad you have a normal feeling clutch now! I know how annoying that is. Makes the car not fun anymore. Also, in that video, your car is clean! Nice car bro.

I second the throw out bearing as the potential cause. I didn’t use the one that came with the LUK kit based on some threads on this site. But, I didn’t use OEM. I used SKF, which is another aftermarket brand. The tech who installed my clutch said he chose to use that one after comparing the two because it looked more like the OEM one.


I got the SKF idea from this guy. Had the same issue.

Also, just thought I’d add that I read some reviews from people on the LUK kit that had the sound and said it just went away after awhile. You never know!

BROlando

A release bearing (throwout bearing) problem is likely what's causing your noise.
Always use bearings from a Honda/Acura dealer.

You also need the HT urea grease from a Honda/Acura dealer.


Make sure some issue with the self adjuster hasn't caused the springs to rub on the release bearing.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/luk-clutch-do-not-come-preset-come-inside-860524/

MyGuti

Thanks everyone for the input. I've already contacted the shop and they want the car overnight so they can hear it at cold start and diagnose the problem. I'm hoping the sound goes away, but at the same time I do want them to fix the issue as it wasn't there prior to them working on it.

They used a luk clutch kit, so looks like it's most likely that throwout bearing that's causing the noise, especially after watching the link posted, it seems like that's the culprit for sure.

My question now is when I take it back to them, is there any definitive way for them to confirm if it is indeed the throwout bearing or not? I only ask, because I know they will push back on replacing the part and covering the labor.....but they should right? They installed a part they ordered and it ended up being vaulty or needing replacing. Labor and all fees should be copped right?

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

That's a tough one...
I would suspect they will ask you to buy the part and maybe split labor.
Doing the job entirely over again because of a noise that isn't present when warmed up isn't that big a deal to the guy that has to do the job

to you, it is...my S2000 has that noise in the lower gears when cold and I was told it was likely the bearing as well...stock probably 153k clutch though...

The master you can't remove the checkvalve hence the link to the EM2 that doesn't have it in it.

thoiboi

such a dad joke but i chuckled at this...

MyGuti

say it is the throwout bearing....is there any potential for damage being caused by it? In case the shop decides to be difficult and not cover the labor or part etc. I can live with the noise as long as it doesn't cause damage

Ltfa182

Not sure what they will do. But if you watch the video, I don’t think he didn’t pulled everything apart again. He took apart what he needed to and got to the bearing. Maybe they will do something similar. I think they totally would cover everything. If we weren’t car people, we’d think less about it. For a normal customer the thought is “I got work done, now the car makes a noise, please fix the noise that wasn’t there before you touched it.” Feel like that’s fair. Sucks for the tech, but it’s important to do right by the customer. I’m sure it wasn’t a cheap job and he probably got paid 9-10 hours of labor to do the job and he was able to do it in much less.

MyGuti

Another small update, as of last night, noise is no longer there. Fingers crossed it stays like that.
Car is parked outside while at work, so its the coldest temp it'll see for a few months now as warmer weather is approaching..
But here in Canada, the current temp still hits around 2 degrees Celsius, But last night at crank, no noise! so that's a big plus

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I was gonna say, let the bearing break in...who knows...
sometimes I just press the clutch in a bunch of times to kinda just get everything moving...
also, turn the radio up!

@thoiboi you are literally my target audience of 1.

BROlando

Lol Idk what y'all are talking about.

I would bring the car back and tell them its making a noise. The input bearing theory doesn't make sense if you rest your foot on the pedal and the noise goes away. The input shaft and bearing are still spinning at engine speed in that scenario.

I would delete all complexity.

They did the work.
They sourced the parts.
Your car is making a noise it wasn't making before.
They need to diagnose it and fix it properly.
Its a throwout bearing noise.

These things don't typically resolve themselves. They will come back later and/or get worse and often will do more damage.

Don't wonder or speculate what they will do.

Be nice...but firm. Ask them to diagnose the issue. If its a throwout bearing, it's on them, assuming you paid them a profited amount for the parts themselves, part of that profit covers their liability.

Stop doing modifications until the system works as it should. You're making things more complicated by doing/asking for all the delay deletes that aren't part of standard practice.

MyGuti

Im just curious as to what damage (if any) can be caused by the bearing?

Bars

A few years back I had the same issue after picking my car up from getting the clutch replaced. Before I started the car the mechanics said that the throw out bearing is squeaking, which was never an issue prior. But the squeaking went away with the slightest touch of the clutch pedal. Google says that a bad throw out bearing makes noise when the clutch pedal is pressed all the way, whereas the noise in our instance happens when the clutch pedal isn't pressed at all. The noise goes away because when you slightly press the clutch pedal the slave clyinder makes full contact with the fork so the noise goes away. When you have your foot off the clutch, the vibration from the transmission and fork constantly make contact with the metal ball from the slave cylinder; causing that metal on metal squeaking noise. I fixed it by cleaning the part of the fork where it makes contact with the slave cylinder and applying some moly grease there. Just loosen the 2 bolts holding the slave cylinder in place so you can clean the contact area and apply some moly grease. I'm surprised that none of the og's here know about this

BROlando

Refer to the posts above.
It depends on why its squeaking.

Could be lack of grease in the right spots.
Could be a bearing issue that will turn into a bearing failure.
It could be rubbing on something its not supposed to.

These are all items that a qualified tech needs to check in order to diagnose your noise.

No point in speculating.

Check.
Find.
Fix.

BROlando

Grease has been mentioned, but this likely is not a resonating noise from the clutch fork.

It sounds like a cyclical noise caused by something that's rotating.

A brand new clutch install should have been greased properly. If this is the issue, the tech should have no trouble at all. If I were the OP, I would avoid working on the car myself before this issue is resolved.

Its a really easy equation to solve.
Go ask the guy who did the work to look into and fix the problem.

Any other path is going to complicate things.