The public is drastically under-estimating the abilities of Honda platforms since the factories can only build so much performance into their products at the price point they compete at, and the tuner market it so immature when it comes to chassis tuning the inherent flaws in the designs are just "covered up" by fancy colors and stiff springs. Few products have the refinement and philosophy in place needed to really make a TSX or TL compete with a BMW 3-Series that people mistakenly write the Acura sedan off as a gussied up Honda. This, in fact, is no insult since Honda engineers are debatably second to none when it comes to chassis and engine design. But the powers that be will always make a Honda more conservative in suspension tuning to appease sensitive drivers (read: people who should have bought a lexus) and fit it with narrow, pathetic tires and lower cost to keep the economy of the vehicle in check.

In comes Heeltoe. Our goal is to turn the Acura TSX, TL and Honda Accord into the cars we know they were bred to be by sending them to rehab. That means torque-enhancing engine tuning, a stiffer chassis structure, and suspension tuning suited to compliment the driving experience rather than dampen it.

Want a BMW, but are unable or unwilling to pay the price for one, either in initial cost, depreciation, or long term maintenance? Look no further than HT-SPEC tuning for your Honda or Acura vehicle!




----comments highly encouraged!

Marcus

 

If you can convert my TL from FWD into RWD to compete with the Beamer, than you might just have something there...

 

 

Not sure what is going on but I'm all ears more mods and more money to spend on our beloved TL's.

 

More Info........

 

Will Heeltoe even take over my car payments too? I strongly encourage so.

 

Hmmmm....Subscribed.

 

Interested.

 

I want my TL to handle like a BMW. Got Tein SS set to the middle setting and a TLs Rear Sway and Polyurethane rear sway bar bushings.. And it STILL doesnt feel as planted down on corners as other cars I have driven. What else can I do?!

Should I change the settings on my Teins? Or should I upgrade my rear sway to Progress/Comptech? Upgrade front sway to TLs? Or is there other front sway bar options?

I just put my car back on oem 17" wheels.. with stock michelins. Should I upgrade my tires? Would that make the biggest difference in cornering?

lol I want to know these things because I dont feel confident in my cars cornering abilities..

 

Ok, I am going to ignore the smart @$$ comments, and obviously if you think RWD is really what is necessary to create a great car...um, you bought the wrong car.

Saying an Acura is a great car EXCEPT it is FWD is missing the point of this topic. Honda makes the best handling FWD cars on the planet, generally speaking. But they fail to offer the driving enjoyment the BMW has. Steering feel, pedal feel (on the brake AND the gas), the chassis feedback, the pulls-me-out-of-a-corner and passes-on-the-freeway-without-downshifting grunt...No of course you are not going to fundamentally transform the car.

BUT! Knowing what I know, and with the research I am currently doing, I don't see any reason why a TSX or a TL could not give a good practical run for the money to a 3-series. Meaning, dollar for dollar, giving up an Acura would be a tough justification.


I wanted a 328 before getting my TSX. Very modestly optioned, the total gets to $50k very fast, and you still are not getting all the features of the Acura! And, the maintenance might be included on the BMW initially, but that is when the payment and depreciation is the most. But just watch what happens after 60-70K comes in. I am not going to get into it. But people complaining about one lousy compliance bushing on the TL...you need to steer clear of the German cars.


Anyway, I'd be the first to hit up the 328 if I had the money. But I am a Honda man through and through. There is so much to like about these cars, we really just need to make intelligent mods. Spend the money where it counts. Get the results you want and that will make it so your car will never "get old."


bzyrice, you know exactly EXACTLY what I am getting at in terms of what we want. PLANTED. Firm where you want it, comfortable everywhere else. Everything you are thinking of will be good for the grip, but the car is still going to feel "off." We are planning to map out a series of upgrades that will be aimed at getting you right in that sweet spot.

 

Yah, I came from an AWD TT and a golf both on bilstein coilovers.. those cars cornered great.. I think the TT because of the AWD and the Golf because it was light..

I also have had my share of civics, integras.. and all of those cornered great!

But, the best of all my cars in terms of handling was my s2k..

I think my problem is that the TL is heavy.. Im not used to it.. BUT, I drive my fiances is250 around and there is this one off ramp I compared our cars.. I can easily do 60 on the ramp with her STOCK is250.. Mine is modded and I just dont feel as safe in my car doing 60 on the same exact off ramp. Not sure exactly why.. that is why recently I upgraded my rear sway hoping that would help.. but I didnt see that much of a difference.. Keep me posted on your plans because I would really love this car to handle GREAT!! And I am willing to get the stuff needed to get it there..

I opted to keep the Teins on the medium setting because I wanted to keep the comfort of the car.. but I am about to change the settings just to see if it helps!

 

Who said that? The TL is a great car. It would be a better car if it was RWD. I chose an Acura over a BMW mainly due to the cost of ownership, and the TL's sexy profile is FTW! For sake of argument, AWD takes the cake hands down. I'm glad to see that Acura added the SH-AWD feature to the TL line as an option. My initial comment above was meant as a tongue-in-cheek ribbing.

Enough said. My interest is peaked. I'd like to see what you have up your sleeve that will allow the TL to compete with the "Ultimate Driving Machine". If anyone can put something together that works, I trust it would be you.

 

They don't make a red text

I love my TL and I would absolutely love for it to hug the ground a little more... In all honesty, I am just excited to see what you have in mind.

 

Maybe some sort of rear brace or upper bracing? Dont know how it would work.. but MAYBE lol

 

The TL-S beat the G35 and IS350 around Willow Springs in a JapMag comparo btw. I have obviously driven / owned several heavily modded AWD cars and I can definitely say that AWD is very overrated for performance driving. I'm curious to see what you have coming up too Marcus.

 

NOTE: Purple text was added by me.


True. There is the enemy that everyone is struggling to manage. I offer this insight so others will know where to concentrate their efforts.

Mine is a handling beast with all oem suspension components. Either manage the weight or eliminate the weight. Performance handling components are meant to manage the weight - shocks, springs, sway bars. Fighting and managing the weight will work to a point. Laws of physics (inertia) will have the ultimate upper hand in the situation. But, eliminating the weight is a true win because it removes the inertia.

I know that others do not wish to strip their TL. I am just offering the above as insight because I live on the other side of the fence and I see things that others may not be able to see from where they are.

 

hmm. i wanna know what you have in store.

 

Subscribed!

 

I'm not quite sure where this thread is headed, but it has become interesting enough that I thought I would throw in my

First of all, the TL-S is not far from the weight of the BMW's. It's weight [I]distribution[I] is more of the problem. The BMW's achieve a better balance mainly because of its RWD layout.

Secondly, the RWD vs FWD argument is mainly offered by those that are lucky enough to live in a warm climate year round. I don't care how many electronics you put on that RWD, it would not have been pleasant this winter in Ohio (or in the vast majority of the entire country this year) I am not exaggerating when I say that 90% of the cars that slid off the road this year were RWD.

Lastly, the TSX is the car of choice at the Mid-Ohio Driving School, of which I am a graduate of the advanced high performance class. The TSX's performed admirably with a few mods (CAI, brakes, larger Kumho tires), and I didn't see any bimmers pulling away anywhere on the track (some brought their own machines that ranged from BMW's to Shelbys).

I might add that the TSX's didn't experience one single mechanical failure in three years of hard driving by all kinds of experienced drivers. I doubt that any BMW would have achieved that level of reliability.

Anyway, just my observations.

'07 TL-S 5A/T CBP
FUJITA F5
PROGRESS RSB
P2R THROTTLE BODY SPACER
BRAILLE BATTERY
V1 on the lookout

 

Subscribed.....I'm curious what you have in mind......

 

The support here is very encouraging. I think we have been trying sell parts to a package that doesn't have a clear goal. The idea here is to create a few levels of parts that will compliment the car and eachother as packages. Give the TL the sports package that the dealer never offered.


Its funny you mention TSXs S PAW. I have a similar conversation going on the TSX c l ub and it is quickly turning into a cost concern for people. I think if you place value on the car and the drive, the cost for parts becomes a factor you can manage over time. I mean, I'd rather pay more for upgrades than for the car in the first place.

 

Sounds very interesting, do continue....

 

If you have already upgraded your rear sway bar, upgrade your front sway bar (I'm not talking about the strut bar) and you'll notice improvement in handling. One of the key differences in terms of handling between our TL's and a TYPE S.

 

What are the options available?

 

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/h-r-front-sway-bar-04-08-acura-tl-28mm-70104-a-758510/

 

subscribed.

 

Elegant?! Wow have time to be on the forums? lol

Yah I think I am gonna go ahead and order the front sway from a TL-s .. but I want to see what these guys are going to do first.

 

subscribed....what can it be

 

Interesting. This has my attention.

As far as changing the FSB to a stiffer one, I heard that it would increase the understeer of the car which would essentially un-do the benefits of putting in a stiffer RSB.

 

they're probably gonna strip a beemer and hook us up!

 

 

^^^Yup

'07 TL-S CBP
PROGRESS RSB
FUJITA F5
P2R
BRAILLE BATTERY
V1 on the lookout

 

STATS ON '07 TL/TL-S:

TL
Front bar: 27.2 mm diameter, 5.0 mm wall thickness
Rear bar: 18.3 mm diameter, 3.0 mm wall thickness

TL-S
Front bar: 27.0 mm diameter solid
Rear bar: 20.0 mm diameter solid (in my case now a 24mm adjustable solid from Progress)

In reality, the front bar is actually smaller on the TL-S, but admittedly stiffer due to it being a solid bar. The rear bar is substantially larger on the TL-S in comparison to the TL.

To decrease understeer, most aftermarket mfrs. of anti-roll bars have focused on the rear, as it gives the greatest benefit.

'07 TL-S 5 A/T CBP
FUJITA F5
PROGRESS RSB
P2R TBS
BRAILLE BATTERY
V1 on the lookout

 

how much is a TL-S front sway bar?,, will the handling be THAT much improved combined with a progress 24mm RSB? also will the combonation of these two increase traction for us 6mt guys?

 

See, I am looking to figure a lot of this stuff out but first we need to stiffen the chassis.

 

That's where you have to be careful. They had a guy drive his Shelby from Michigan down to Mid-Ohio Driving School, and each time he invested major bucks into the suspension. He had the pros drive his car after each mod.

The last trip he made the chassis way too stiff, and actually scared the hell out of one of the pros when some rain arrived and dampened the track.
So the trick is making the suspension compliant enough to be driveable in all conditions, just not racing.

I believe that Acura has invested major dollars into achieving a true "balance" in their cars. Any changes need to be subtle, and not drastic.
The old motto "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" couldn't apply more.

Just be careful in reinventing the wheel IMO.

'07 TL-S 5 A/T CBP
FUJITA F5
PROGRESS RSB
P2R
Braille battery
V1 on the lookout

 

hey Marcus-- got a lower cross bar for gen3 like gen2 TL has available? make one if not!!!-

Installing the cusco lower frame bar totally flattened my gen2 in freeway quick lane changes, and eliminated the opposite roll feeling passengers get entering corners

By locating the lower strut area in a solid place- the suspension geometry doesnt change moment by moment in the turns
the extra upper bar tightens the car by locating the upper strut towers to each other
better than the OE bar

Mickyslip tires- are not great ~planted on the road tires~ get something sticky!
Im running general tire Exclaim UHP, great for their low price and hangs on in wet or dry as hard as I want to go thru the cloverleaf onramps (licensed SCCA Driver)
moving on and off the line in a turn at will (gen2TL)

goodyear F1 tires are awesome but pricey

Moog end links on the sway bars with the poly bushings

Play with your Tein SS- so much change with a few clicks.
try softer in the rear by 2 clicks
soften it up a bit and go for a back roads run- tighten front up -retest same road- repeat with various adjustments
Keep a log of what settings produced what results

I have 3 presets---city streets, wife driving, and me alone- settings programmed into the EDFC electronic controller for the Tein SS..push a button and instant shock change for construction zone bumps or smooth and flying low~
At the track go full stiff 16 front, and adjust rears as needed for understeer

You guys that have done some suspension mods- contact Marcus and give feedback on products- real life experience helps vendors make packages of the best stuff!

 

100% agree. The stiffening of the chassis is probably going to render a lot of the suspension options out there unsuitable. I did a lot of work on an A-spec car and it responded admirably. I actually got a lot of the euro feel out of it. The same stuff on a Tein FLEX TSX was still quite surprising, but I had less time driving that car so its hard to say what side effects came up.

 

After reading this I just may get the Tein EDFC.. it WOULD be nice to be able to control it without taking the rear seats out..

 

You get a discount buying it with our brace here:
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/Fastline-...-pr-64861.html