LT-Aruca

I just want to make sure this problem gets as much attention as possible so I'm reposting this from the very long thread of "First Week's problems". Also, I know that people from the *Acura of Seattle*dealership actively look at this forum to get insight into what their customers are saying. So Acura of Seattle better treat me right or they will definitely hear from on this forum. Anyway, here goes the story:

On my way home from picking up my TL from the dealership, the Malfunction Engine light flashed. I was on "sport-shift" mode and had left it on 2nd gear for about 30 seconds or so. Then the malfunction light blinked for about 5 seconds or so. I switched to full auto and it stopped blinking. I was unable to replicate this until today. I can replicate this at will by doing the following:

1. Switched to "Sportshift" mode
2. Left the gear at 2
3. Reached 4500RPM at around 50MPH, still at 2nd gear.
4. The malfunction light starts to blink and finally comes on steady.

I was able to reproduce this a total of 4 times doing exactly the steps above and I've had the car for only 2 weeks now.

I brought for servicing yesterday to have them look at it. Heard back from (Acura of Seattle) service regarding the Malfunction Light turning on. The service guy says that it's expected behavior for the engine to misfire if it runs at 4500RPM!!! What a bunch of crap that is!! Are they saying that the engine of the 2004 Acura TL is not designed to handle 4500RPM??? Heck that's over 2000RPM below the starting redline mark of 6800+ RPM! If that's the case then why not redline it at 4500RPM then??

I almost believed the service guy until the loaner car that I got to drive which is also an '04 TL identical to mine (even has the same # of miles of 700+) DID NOT BEHAVE THE SAME WAY. I did exactly what I did to my car...using sprotshift, I revved it up to 4500RPM at 2nd gear, and the Malfunction light NEVER FLASHED and NEVER CAME ON. I held it at 4500 up to 5200+ RPM at 50mph on 2nd gear and there was not malfunction light turning on. I did this at least 4 times over 30 miles of driving and
I could not replicate it. On my car, I can got the Malfunction light to come on AT WILL by doing exactly this. To me this means that there MUST be something wrong with my car! Don't you guys agree? Otherwise if this was "normal" or "expected" behavior of the engine, then another identical car would exhibit the same behavior wouldn't it?

I will be picking up the car tomorrow and I am ready to argue my case. THEY HAVE TO AGREE THAT THERE's SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY CAR AND THEY HAVE TO FIGURE IT OUT AND FIX IT.
Should I call ACS and mention this?

It is totally UNACCEPTABLE to me that the engine of a brand new $30,000 car is unable to sustain 4500RPM for more than 30seconds without getting into a misfire or having the Malfunction light to come on. Redline starts at around 6800RPM and the car is designed to be able to handle up to that much and beyond.

The Service department has only 2 options here in my opinion:

A. The sensors are too sensitive or are malfunctioning in m car causing the Malfunction indicator to come on unnecessarily. If this is the case, then we have a sensor or computer programming problem. Service has to fix the sensors or update the ECU.

B. The sensors are correct in detecting a problem somewhere, in which case we have a real problem. The service has to fix that real problem until the sensors no longer detects it.

Somebody mentioned that on earlier builds (my vin is 27xxx, not sure on what early build this is on), there had been an update to the ECU. I would have expected that the newer builds should have this update already. So I will mention this to the service guy.

Sorry for the long post but I'm really bothered that this is happening on a brand new Acura TL.

(SSM AT\VIN #27XXX)

LT-Aruca

...

rkilian

It's a software update only, don't worry about it, a whole buch of people (including myself) had this happen.
15 minute fix.

Norse396

While I'm not sure why someone would drive that way, I can understand why you're upset. I'm not sure I want to drive for any period of time with the car left in 2nd to try this but I'll give her a shot today.

LT-Aruca

Thanks Norse396. I know it's not the customer's job to stress test these engines. But I would imagine that they at least did this level of stress test. In fact, I would expect that their stress test run the engine at the redline.

BTW, I have an update from the service department. I just spoke with the service guy and he is telling me that diagnostic codes they downloaded from my car indicate that I was redlining the engine (6700+ RPM). In other words, they think I'm lying to them when I said that I was only at 4500 RPM. I can understand that. The computer does not lie. The problem is, I also did not lie as I was watching the RPM counter very closely all the time (it never made it past 5000RPM).

I will go there in an hour or so and test drive it with a technician to try to prove to the guy that I can replicate this problem not at redline where they think it is but only at 4500. They said that at the redline, the valves start to "float" causing the engine to misfire. But like I said, I wasn't even close to the redline when this starts to happen. And again, the loaner car did not misfire at 5000+ RPM when I tried it for 4-5 times yesterday.

But in any case, do you think that if one redlines (6700+ RPM) the TL that the engine would start misfiring? Has anyone even tried redlining their TL's?

They also said that they have never heard of any software updates.

BarryH

It's a little early to bring the flame thrower out. The situation you describe is pretty specific and you have to go out of your way to create it. If it's the cars programming, others will experience it too and hopefully Acura will make the necessary SW adjustments. If it's just your car push the dealer to make it right. If this dealer won't, take it to another dealer. If you're not getting satisfaction have the issue raised to Acura Regional. It's too early in the process to get yourself this worked up.

adam209

that's pretty sh!tty customer service. is there another dealership close to seattle? maybe take it there instead.

Skeedatl

I agree...that's B.S. At NO time should the light come on even if you were bouncing it off the rev limiter, nevertheless at 4500RPM which sounds like a grounding problem but It's obviously a problem. I would recommend taking it to another dealer and once the problem is PROPERLY diagnosed and repaired, send a complaint letter to the general manager of the troublesome Acura dealer as well as corporate.

How do you know it's misfire...is that the troublecode that was spit out? If so did they mention if the code was for single (which specifies which cyl is misfiring) or random (which specifies that more than one cyl is misfiring). With OBD-II, the light is flashing when it's actually seeing the problem and it will come on steady when it stops.

I had this problem with a car and it was a bad ground. It would misfire above 3500. I had the problem with a different car with coil on plug ignition and 2 of the plug wires were reversed (in this particular 6 cyl, cyl 6 had a different wire than the rest and was mixed up). It would trigger a misfire trouble code at 2500RPM and up. It both cases it was simply bad grounding that caused the problems.

NOX 3.2

this behaviour doesn't sound normal to me,
although I usually don't get it higher than 3.5k in order to save gas. I have tested my car up to 6500 rpm with no problem, it may also be different since I have a 6 speed, but my previous 2 TL with sport-shift never did that...

so I think you have a case...
good luck, and let us know the outcome.

rets

There is nothing wrong to rev high. My 5AT has this problem, too.

As many ppl previously described, Acura comes out the solutions, including upgrading the new program into ECU. The early VINs prior to 12xxx (or 14xxx?) are the main target groups. However, MIL-ON issue could happen in other later built 04TL, too, IMO.

Basically, I don't fully agree what Acura has done to reset the program and make ECU ignore these signals, which means the new program lift the threshold to the higher standard. They use software to resolve the could-be hardware issue.

For now, it seems update of software is the must-to-have way to fix this kind of misfire. If you only replace the sensor, it could happen again.

It is supposed not to happen on the brand new car. Unfortunately, it happens, and there should be the way to fix.

Skeedatl

They can't simply be changing the warning thresh holds. Any changes to the ECU would require new CARB (California Air Resources Board) approval here in California or the car would fail smog.

rets

I wonder this, too. Perhaps, I said it wrong.

But the reload of new program really make ECU insensitive in this issue. Could I say "less sensitive"? Or should I say the new program make it fire right?

I wanna know how this works too.

If Acura could make hardware correct, it's even better.

LT-Aruca

Just got back from the dealership. I was supposed to test drive it with a technician but they were too busy. So I decided to take the car and bring it back on Wednesday. After I left and barely a block away from the dealership, the MIL flashed and turned on again when I my RPM just crossed 4000 on Sortshift. I u-turned back to the dealership. The service guy decided that it's best that I leave the car so they can look at it more closely on Monday.

I have a feeling I got a lemon. We'll see...

TLover

I wonder whether it's a coilpack problem. Perhaps a coilpack can't keep firing fast enough as the RPMs increase. Hope everything works out.

vtechbrain

Yep easy fix. Blame uncle Sam's OBDII!

Tread

Yes, but it was fixed on cars with vin's over 12000, this one is in the 27000's, whats the deal now?

They replaced coil packs and plugs and crank angle sensors untill the software update came out, mine was in the 1900 range.

Why is this one in 27000 range having a problem that was fixed via a tsb and compure update?

Bartman_RENAMED

LT,

I can't believe that you got a TL as a loaner car at Acura of Seattle. When I went took my car in, they made me wait for someone from Enterprise to drive over in a Buick Lesabre. I got stuck driving this piece of sh1t Buick Lesabre for a day. To top it off, I had to listen to another sales pitch for the extra coverage.

LT-Aruca

I show up early...7:30 or 8AM. Right when they open. It's probably first come first serve. What time did you drop off your car?

Roadmaster

Service departments tend to think that the owners of the cars are completely and utterly stupid. I had my local honda dealer tell me my heated seats in my 03 Accord were in fact working just because the light was on. After a few days at the dealership they said, "Oh wait, your seats don't work, we will fix that for you."

Then, I had the dealer tell me the reason my car didn't start was because I pulled a fuse out and forgot to put it back in. Two days later the car shut off while I was driving - Tow it back in.

Moral of the story, many times the service centers are the dumb-asses.

Dustin

LT-Aruca

I got an updatew. I just talked to the service Manager and he said that they found some "electrical" problem with the "crank sensor" sending causing it to send incorrect signals. They ordered the part and will install it hopefully by tomorrow.

I'm glad I didn't accept their BS explanation about it being normal. I think they were just too lazy to even test drive it. It only took my 5 minutes of driving to replicate the problem. Never ever believe these guys!

Of course, once I get my car back, I will test the car again and see if the problem does indeed go away.

Just to make sure they cannot BS me:

1. Does anyone know what a "crank sensor" is? I know it's just a sensor but is this indicative of a serious problem?

2. Would it hurt to get a second opinion from the service of another Acura dealership? Are their computers connected and they will be able to see what the other dealership has in their database? I want to make sure the other dealer is unaware of what the other has found and allow it to make its own independent investigation. If their findings are consistent, then I know to a certain extent that the original finding is credible.

rets

In the end of Oct., some dealers suggested to replace "Crankshaft Position Sensor" in order to fix this "MIL ON" issue. After replacing this sensor, the problems still existed. Finally, in Nov., according to the Acura Engineers, the replaced sensor doesn't fix the problem, they recommend reprogramming the car with the new software...

Those conversation/actions above were happened before Acura's offical TSB in Dec. came out. And, this is to the group of cars of early-built.

Since your 04TL has the new VIN, yours is supposed to have NEW program as we've thought, wish this replacement of "Crankshaft Position Sensor" could help. IMO.

Some ppl also replaced coil packs on cylinders.

BarryH

If you're going to freak out like this everytime your car has a problem you'll go nuts. The dealer should have been more responsive the first time you spoke to them but, in the end, it looks like everything's going to be OK. Second opinion? You're not even sure the first opinion's not right yet. Chill. If not, both dealers will label you a flake and never take you seriously.

LT-Aruca

I picked up the car after they replaced the Crank Shaft Sensor. It appears to have fixed the problem as I am unable to replicate the Malfunction Indicator (or check engine) light to turn on.

They kept the car for a whole week though. Now I have to bring it back because they scratched up the B-Pillar plastic cover while trying to reinstall the driver's seat. Yes, they also worked on the driver's seat to repair a tear on the leather which was there when I first picked up the car. I'm not really impressed with the quality of work done by Acura of Seattle service department. With a simple walkthrough inspection, they would have easily seen the gouge and scratches on the B-Pillar that they caused.

And by the way, the plastic housing behind the sterring wheel appears to have opened up and will not shut completely. I think this was always like this but I will also get Acura of Seattle to fix it.

Lore

My service department replaced that same housing for me once before for the same reason and now that it's replaced, it doesn't close all the way again. Bad design methinks.

rets

I have the same issue. When it is loosed for the works under the steering wheel, it will never go back the same.