SouthernBoy

Ever been to Centreville? This whole area ranks as some of the worse traffic in the nation. One thing, though. I bet our roads are better than yours.

bluesolara

Yeah...I'm a relatively amateur manual driver...but enthusiastic about learning new techniques, I used to think using the engine to brake is a good thing to do, until a lot of ppl told me otherwise...

I then learned how to heel-toe, definitely an art that takes much practice to perfect, but it's becoming more and more natural now...right now, when I'm about to make a right turn onto a street, and say I'm cruising 50

I Basically Down shift( rev match ) my way to second gear, and then make the turn

so rev-matching won't hurt the engine and the clutch as much right?

SouthernBoy

Rev-matching by itself does not complete the process. You need to engage the clutch as you pass through the neutral gate whil blipping the throttle (rev-match) at the same time. This has commonly been known as "double clutching" and is the least injurious method of downshifting to all of the clutch assembly components.

Adobeman

I do... and I downshift it quite a bit just like my 6MT

Seriously, if you do it properly you will have much greater control and place very little wear on the clutch and gears. Nothing scarier than being in a car with someone that coasts through a turn and then fumbles for a gear to accelerate out of the turn. Personally I like to have the right gear selected to enter and leave a turn before I even start to turn the wheel. So yeah, I downshift, match revs and brake all at the same time. Then all there is to do is drive, not coast, through the turn. Stop signs and lights are different to me I usually just brake and let the clutch out when the engine speed slows. So I I guess that's just good old engine braking w/o downshifting. Sorta like a Jake-brake without the noise.

GIXXERDK

Thought it also burns out the transmission oil? Think I heard this at a local drag strip.

Type-Superman

how does coasting put strain on the brakes?

whenever i drive my bro's Camaro, i like just letting up on the gas and coasting in neutral while approaching traffic.

saves gas, too

b827

Someone needs to watch some F1 racing, see if they down shift into the corners

06 Acura TL

im surprised the mods havent moved this to rambling.

i down shift all the time. bot to stop the car but to slow it down. i feel i have more control of my TL when i brong it into a gear where im at like 2500-3500 RPM...not to totally stop it tho. and deff when im going into a turn so i can come out of it jus as fast as i got into it

OntheJob

I understand the both sides of the argument here.. but remember were not driving a piece of plastic. Its a car ! and you have a warrenty, if you want to downshift do it, and enjoy life. either way no matter what you do the car is not going to last forever.

So dont worry about something that has not been proven.

switchedON

What is the deal with this downshifting / when do I up shift crap?
Anyone’s Grandma on this post.

People, your car won’t break. If you have to even ask, believe me, you couldn’t break your car if you tried.

If you think you can damage a Honda built, or any Jap built car for that matter with a good dose of balls to the wall screw everyone driving, you haven’t been paying attention.

Drop the hammer beeatch!!!!

SouthernBoy

??

SouthernBoy

Honda products are nowhere near as strong as American supercars of the mid-60's. And even those broke on occasion.. I know, I've seen it happen at the drag strips.

What people here are trying to avoid is non-essential wear to an expensive piece of joy and pride. Personally, I side with them. While I can certainly afford to replace my TL with whatever I wish, I prefer to do things deliberately and with forethought when possible.

switchedON

Bull shit. American cars "back in the day" would hard fail in 12 hours of hard thumping. Not so much now (thanks to Jap love and influence).

You can afford blah blah blah---who cares. Thats not what the gang wants to hear.

Anyone who has to ask when to shift should A) Be a 16 year old girl or B) drink a certain kind of tea; C U N is what I think they call it. or C) Grow a set or D) Roll over and submit. or any combination of the above.

Change your oil, dont smoke your clutch, pay attention, let er buck, were a boot.

I hate cars

That's too funny. You obviously have never been to a dragstrip. There's nothing more annoying than having 14 second Honda after 14 second Honda oil down the track on a Saturday night grudge match. That is if they make it off the line without snapping an axle.

I hate cars

Are you sure you're 40??? Usually people with this sort of ignorance are in their teens and it's understandable. Maybe it's time to "Switch off".

SouthernBoy

He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I know.. I've been there. If you raced a TL like we used to race our supercars, the shifter wouldn't even make it through a few rounds, let along the fact that it's too short for serious work.

Interesting. Only two posts and he's making enemies already.

GIXXERDK

You're comparing apples to oranges..

BEAR-AvHistory

Reads like it was written by someone with a room temperature IQ when it comes to cars

06 Acura TL

so this went from downshifting to drag racing...awesome...dude not for nothing ur comparing supercars to 4 dr sedans..wheres my NSX guys at. bring me n NSX n bring me a vette, lets see which cars hold up longer on a drag strip. n for the record i dont c where downshifting plays any kind of roll in drag racing.

TLin05

You're right, except I said "when stopping the car from speed..." My comment actually was in a reference to an early poster who said words to the effect of "I throw it into neutral and hit the brakes."

TLin05

My wife and I go to the Fair Lakes mall every now and then. If I ever happen to notice an NBP 6-spd (I'm Athracite over Quartz) around here I'll toot the horn ... so honk back if it's you! I must see 4 or 5 TLs on the road every day around here, but hardly ever a manual.

SouthernBoy

Mine's Anthracite w/Ebony on the inside. I think I once counted 14 3G TL's where I work and I know that at least 3 of them are manuals.

SouthernBoy

Can't vouch for the current crop of 'Vettes, but were it to be of the mid'60's variety, your NSX would lose fail long before the Ray would.

As for the varying of the thread's theme, you are right about that. We did and do tend to stray from topics rather frequently.

I hate cars

Are you serious? Let's look at an NSX for what it is, an over priced semi-exotic that does everything a little above average but does not excel in any category. A well driven TL-S would give the first crop on NSXs a run for it's money on the strip or road course.

I remember all the hype when it was coming out. Aluminum this and that. Vtec, all aluminum motor, blah blah blah. While many people like yourself jumped on the Honda bandwagon, I saw an underpowered NA 6 banger that still tipped the scales at 3,400lbs and cost $65K.

While the Vette isn't my favorite car by far, it's extremely durable. I've witnessed friends make run after run in the mid 11s on a bone stock motor and trans without breaking anything in two years.

Sammy555

I coast all the time and I don't buy the above two reasons because:

(1) In neutral, it take me a tiny fraction of a second to immediatley throw the shifter back into gear. A typical car with an automatic transmission would take longer to start accelerating than my car from neutral due to the transmission lag. Also, in almost any emergency situation, you are going to want to brake rather than accelerate out of trouble. And you still have full brake control when coasting.

(2) Concerning gas usage, the amount of gas that the engine uses while idling is miniscule.

Sammy555

I was looking over the California DMV driver's manual and website recently because my daughter is looking to get her first license, and to my surprise I found that they said that one should downshift, not coast, to a stop. I'm not about to change my habits, though. I feel that I can get the car in gear instantly if needed. And, as I stated, in almost any emergency situation you are going to want to brake rahter than accelerate out of trouble.

I hate cars

True, but on my twice monthly trip, there's a section of road where I can coast for nearly 20 minutes. I would rather be using no fuel rather than a little fuel for 20 minutes.

I hate cars

If I remember right, it's against the law in CA to coast in neutral. Not entirely sure but I remember hearing or reading that many years ago. Might be kind of hard to enforce.

mishar

Sure they do, but not for braking.

teomcdohl

Wow. A simple question and the answers are really ranged. Everyone seems to drive their car a certain way, as long as you're not eating up the clutch by keeping your foot on it all the time I guess you're alright.

I was driving the other day and trying to think - do I downshift, or do I just coast? The answer isn't really either. Sometimes I stay in gear, other times I don't. As far as rev-matching, I don't think I've ever rev matched, more or less I've just let the car settle into the lower gear rather than rev match, except when I really need power when merging onto the highway, or getting away from an idiot, then I just slam it in a lower gear and take off

Thats just my two cents. I drove up to about 108k miles on my other car before I plowed it into a divider during some bad weather - at that point, the car would jerk in 3rd gear and stall out when braking hard, but I think the clutch and transmission was in decent shape for the amount of miles - never let me down before at least.

So, in conclusion I'm just going to keep on driving how I drive. The most important thing is to know your clutch, the release point, and keep your damn foot off of it when not shifting, and when you are shifting, keep your foot on it long enough to shift, and then get off of it. Don't ride it!

Thanks to all who posted to the thread. And just cause I think this smiley is the coolest of the long list...

I hate cars

In my old daily beater I would slip the clutch barely above idle with very little gas and once the clutch was fully released I would feed it throttle. First gear was so short I could get away with it without holding up the flow of traffic. The clutch is only slipping briefly because I would take off with the rpms at 1,200 and with the gearing it was fully coupled by 5mph. The transmission let go at 140K but the original clutch looked surpsingly good when the trans came out. Surprising with a couple 10K rpm misshifts by the girlfriend.

teomcdohl

Wow. Thats pretty incredible. I guess a lot of it depends on the make of the transmission and clutch. Sometimes you get lucky, others times you can get a lemon. Damn... 10k... haha wow. Sounds like that must've been fun

SouthernBoy

You may want to reconsider your method of downshifting. I assume since you're on this forum, you own a manual 3G TL. If so, installing a new clutch is an expensive proposition.. just like any other complex FWD car. So extending the life of the components by using it correctly is not only better for the components, it's better for your wallet as well.

Rev-matching by itself does not complete the picture. You need to engage the clutch while rev-matching as you pass through the neutral gate. This action is known as "double clutching" and has been around since there have been manual transmissions. Rev-matching will extend the life of the clutch. Double clutching takes this further by extending the life of the synchronizers along with the clutch. It's not uncommon to get over 300,000 miles out of a clutch assembly by doing this.

mishar

You are right. Only thing you missed is that it died with invention of synchronizers. By all means you are fully entitled to play ancient racing driver when you are downshifting, but stories about preserving clutch are just stories. Clutch wear comes from starting and up shifting because both are under power and you have to accelerate heavy car. When downshifting without any “special” skills, you only have to spin up engine and not for too much with 6 speed close gears. As a matter of fact when braking hard car deceleration could be faster than that of engine itself.

Rev matching is part of smooth driving but as of saving clutch it really doesn’t do anything measurable.

SouthernBoy

Clearly you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Improper downshifting is quite a bit more injurious to a clutch than is starting off in first gear properly. As for upshifting as you accelerate, if this is also done correctly, there is virtually no wear on the clutch components.

If you do not double clutch while down shifting, the synchronizers are taxed with more work and therefore more fiction as they fight to equalize the speeds of the input and lay shafts within the transmission. This is just how it is and what happens. Here's a quote for you to ponder"

"The synchronizer[1] has to change the momentum of the entire input shaft and clutch disk. Additionally, it can be abused by exposure to the momentum and power of the engine itself, which is what happens when attempts are made to select a gear without fully disengaging the clutch. This causes extra wear on the rings and sleeves, reducing their service life. When an experimenting driver tries to "match the revs" on a synchronized transmission and force it into gear without using the clutch, the synchronizer will make up for any discrepancy in RPM. The success in engaging the gear without clutching can deceive the driver into thinking that the RPM of the layshaft and transmission were actually exactly matched. Nevertheless, approximate "rev-matching" with clutching can decrease the general delta between layshaft and transmission and decrease synchro wear."

Notice the last sentence. Not only is this simple common sense, but also common mechanical knowledge among gearheads.

SouthernBoy

Gentlemen;

It's fine to offer opinions about how things work and what you do to improve your technique or what you have found over the years to be of benefit to people new to all of this or to those who pose questions about the how, what, and why of things. But I would ask you to remember that when offering information that is either wrong as in wrong mechanically, or wrong by habit, you are doing a disservice to the requester. Furthermore, you might be leading them down a path that will cost them money sooner than necessary. So think before you respond. There is no shame in saying, "I don't know". I do this myself and have no problem admitting that either I don't know something or I was wrong in my assumptions.

How someone drives their machine is their business. When they ask questions, it is our business to do what is best for their interests. Given this, what they decide to do afterwards is also totally their business. And remember this. When someone tells you, "I've always done it this way", it still might not be the correct way. If you know how a manual transmission and clutch assembly work, you should know what is best for its health.

Sorry if this steps on anyone's toes and I certainly do not mean to imply that I know everything because I don't. But I do think we owe it to our members who ask these questions to give them the best possible answers coupled with the reasons for those answers. And we need to do this without the name calling and the vile attitudes and the arrogance made by some here on this thread. This helps on one.

asujosh1

For all of the 6MT people out there, just to let you know, the automatic downshifts as you are slowing down and uses the engine braking to help slow the car.

So, if the auto does this BY DESIGN, I highly doubt that if done correctly, IE. matching revs, it will cause any problems.

06 Acura TL

im 100% behind u

I hate cars

She thought it was fun when I was hitting the dash lol. Didn't hurt the motor somehow. I finished that car off pretty well. The trans hung up in 5th gear and I had to drive home in stop and go in 5th. At that point the car was worth less than a clutch and transmission replacement so I did what any normal person would do. I did a 7,000rpm clutch drop in 5th with an already hot clutch. It never did move much after that.

SouthernBoy

Whoa. I'll bet you could have fried eggs on that puppy after dropping that hammer. How'd you like the smell?